- 7 weeks ago
On this special edition of Battle Cry, Gaurav Sawant discusses the evolving nature of global warfare and India's military preparedness with Sandeep Unnithan and Veda Aeronautics Managing Director Deepesh Gupta.
Category
🗞
NewsTranscript
00:17Hello and welcome to a special edition of Battlecry. I'm Gaurav Samad. The battlefield
00:23across the world is changing rapidly and there are very important lessons for India
00:29given the contentious borders both to the north and the west on land and air and of course sea and
00:35undersea to the south east and west. Take for example humanoid robot warriors. They're being
00:41tested even in high altitude battlefields. Robotic dogs, mules to ferry loads and of course carry loads
00:49quadcopters are being used. Manned systems, unmanned systems on land, in air, at sea, undersea,
00:57artificial intelligence, data and network centric warfare, all of this makes the new battlefield
01:04absolutely mind-boggling and you see it in Ukraine. Innovations being made in the battlefield,
01:11in drone technology for example, time from the test bed to the battlefield reduced to weeks
01:18if not days. No question of any prototype. Just locked, loaded and launched but then they're
01:25fighting with their backs to the wall. Iran again is armed using its drones and is giving a nightmare
01:32to US bases across West Asia. The world right now is looking for cheaper mass-produced drones and
01:39cheaper counter drone technology and systems. What about India? Drones in India are being pushed
01:46right down to the platoon level in an infantry formation. There are drone platoons and Bars drone
01:54battalions at core level. The Bhehrav commando battalion with organic UAVs and a target that every soldier
02:01should be drone literate by 2027. A Tri-Services unmanned aerial systems school is already operational and if we
02:10were to talk about the army, the UAS unmanned aerial systems roadmap, it talks of about 30 types, 80 variants,
02:19five buckets of drones. Drones for surveillance, drones for strike, loitering ammunition, air defense,
02:25drone on drone, special drones, special role drones, mother child, mindling, electronic warfare, relay drones,
02:33logistics. There's some of the buckets where drones will play a very critical role in the next war. The Navy
02:41and the Air Force.
02:42They are a breed apart. A league of their own with unmanned undersea strike and surveillance capabilities and
02:50IAF moving towards and operationalizing jet-powered drones and drone motherships that will launch multiple drones once launched.
02:59How is India faring compared to, let's say, China in the east and Europe and US in the west?
03:06Joining me on this special edition of Battlecry as we talk about manned and unmanned systems and drones,
03:14Deepesh Gupta, managing director of VEDA Aeronautics. Deepesh, welcome. Sandeep Unnitan, senior journalist,
03:20joins me on this broadcast. And Sandeep, the pace at which the battlefield is changing,
03:25the next war will be very different, both from Operation Sindur, for example, or the post-Galwan
03:32India-China standoff. China's already testing the humanoid robots, robotic mules, load-carrying drones,
03:40surveillance and attack drones. The next war, Sandeep, will be very different.
03:45Absolutely, Gaurav. And we saw trailers of that, as you mentioned, during the Ladakh standoff in 2020,
03:50Galwan and Operation Sundur in 2025, where China deployed drones for the first time against us in 2020.
03:57And in 2025, Pakistan fired over a thousand drones over two nights. It's a different matter that they
04:03got hammered on the 10th of May and they had to, you know, raise a white flag of surrender. But
04:08the next
04:08conflict, Gaurav, is going to be significantly different, considering that you have two of your
04:14adversaries in a collusive relationship, exchanging real-time information, targeting information,
04:20pooling in resources, you know, deploying drones across a large frontier. This is what India has to
04:27prepare for. As you mentioned, the humanoid robots, which are tireless, which can, which do not have the
04:32same problems that soldiers would have, for instance, on acclimatization and all of that. These are real,
04:37real issues. You're faced with a superpower at your doorstep, Gaurav, a potential superpower,
04:43which is a drone superpower as well. And that has the ability to produce drones on scale. You're
04:50talking of the ability to produce millions of drones, you know, in a matter of months, Gaurav.
04:56Oh, absolutely. Deepesh, let's split this conversation into the offensive and defensive
05:02capabilities of drones. Future warfare, clearly not as much about slow-moving unmanned aerial vehicles,
05:10war increasingly about speed and accuracy. And hence, tell us more about the jet-powered drones you make.
05:17So the way the jet-powered drone requirement is coming up, it's coming up because if you want to do
05:23deep
05:24strike, if you want to do very fast-paced attack, you need jet-powered. The slow-moving targets,
05:29the slow-moving UAVs are an easy target for counter drones. So a jet-powered allows you to go deep
05:37into
05:38enemy territory. And Air Force started this entire concept of Mehrbaba under which they started the
05:44induction and the conceptualization of the jet-powered system, which now the Indian Army and the Navy are
05:50following. So jet-powered is the next breed of deep strike capability, swarming, moving from aircraft,
05:59canisterized, even launching from the ships. So there are major requirements which will move into
06:04jet-powered screen. Sandeep, Ukraine is leading the world in battlefield innovations, you know, from
06:11testbed to battlefield in weeks, if not days. And they're talking all about increasing range,
06:18increasing accuracy, increasing lethality, the area of strike, they want to make it wider. Iran and Ukraine
06:26leading the pack. Are there very important lessons for India, both from Iran and from Ukraine?
06:32Absolutely, Gaurav. You know, the lessons from Iran and from Ukraine are the world is watching these two
06:37conflict theatres very closely because had it not been for Ukraine's drone capabilities, Russia would
06:44have rolled over them. And today, you're looking at Ukraine creating these kill boxes all along the
06:49battlefield. They're producing 8 million drones a year and they plan to double that in the next couple
06:55of months. They're looking at deep strike capabilities where they're attacking Russian oil refining capacity,
07:01something like 2,000 kilometers deep inside Russian territory. Now, that is the kind of capability that
07:06only countries like the United States and Russia had, the ability to launch long-range missiles. Today,
07:12you have, you know, a country like Ukraine, which doesn't have an effective navy or an air force,
07:18which is inflicting such pain across a larger, you know, a country of the size of Russia. Similarly,
07:25with Iran, Iran has the ability today to target multiple countries. It's targeted 11 countries across
07:31a swath of over 2,000 kilometers. It has the ability to project power. It's directly interdicting one
07:37choke point. It's indirectly interdicting two others. And this is because they've invested
07:43heavily in drones and missiles. Of course, wars are sui generis, Gaurav. One war will not be exactly the
07:49same as any other. But this is for us to draw lessons from that, given the fact that we have
07:54unsettled borders with two collusive adversaries, China and Pakistan. And both these countries, Iran and
08:00Ukraine, with their back to the wall, are able to not just innovate in the battlefield, but also
08:06project power over a vast area. Deepesh, as a manufacturer, what are lessons for you, especially
08:14from Ukraine? Mass production in midst of war, innovation. Is there something that we can adopt?
08:21So multiple things. So there is a concept wherein there are cheaper drones, which are the FPVs or even
08:28drones with lesser capability in terms of communication, wherein you reduce the price.
08:34And then there are deep strike capability, which comes on with a certain cost. Now with the deep strike,
08:39you need certain sensors and certain equipment on board, which requires certain skill set. Now what Ukraine,
08:47if you will see today, in Ukraine, you have multiple vendors or multiple companies all having certain
08:54specialization. So in India, there will be diversion or division of companies wherein some will focus on
09:01FPV, which will be mass produced, more like pancakes, as is being produced in Ukraine today. You are literally
09:07mass producing them in hours, as Sandeep just mentioned. While there will be companies like Anduril,
09:15which has to be developed in India, which will do short, short scale, but very deep strike
09:22capability. So it will be divided between multiple companies and multiple knowledge and capability.
09:27Now, we will continue talking about offensive drones. I will come to counter drone systems in just a
09:34moment. But I want to understand from you once again, Deepesh, before I bring in Sandeep. Are we talking
09:39about the next level, you know, working on this airdrop canisterized swarm drones? How, you know,
09:47when we look at what China is talking about, when we look at the United States, where do we stand
09:53when we talk about, you know, increased ranges, freedom to strike deeper? Tell us more about the
09:58cutting edge technology and weapons that India is working on. So there is a misconception that India
10:05is not moving in the in the same space as, say, the US or China or Europe is. Indian armed
10:12forces,
10:13in fact, are moving sometimes even ahead of the curve. When Meher Baba was launched, the swarming concept
10:19or an ability to strike deep into the enemy was not considered by even NATO, even by the US. But
10:27in
10:27India, the Indian Air Force started moving into the swarming capability years before. So this is a
10:33misconception that India is always following. The Indian armed forces are always followers. No, there are
10:39areas where today the Indian armed forces, the Indian army, the Indian navy and the air force are actually
10:45ahead of the curve. For example, the canisterized concept to be deployed from transportation aircraft
10:52is something which is being conceptualized first in India and is now being followed in other countries.
10:58So this is for me a misconception that Indian armed forces are following. No, we are ahead of the curve
11:04in some cases. Very good. Ahead of the curve in conceptualization, but from concept to testbed to
11:12launch to giving it to the end user, Sandeep, do we lose the race sometimes or are we ahead of
11:19the curve
11:19all the way? Well, Daurav, conceptually, there's no doubt about it. We are ahead of the curve. As
11:25Dipesh mentioned, the fact that, you know, the air force was such a visionary force that they conceived a
11:31swarm drone capability more than almost a decade ago. You're talking of 2017, 18, when they started talking of
11:37this concept of swarms and getting companies like Dipesh to participate in this kind of race. And we've now
11:44created an ecosystem of over 500 drone companies. But then the fact is that, you know, we need to move
11:51together. There are areas where we are slackening. We are still import dependent in a lot of areas, key areas.
11:57And the biggest problem here, Gaurav, is that we are not doing things at scale. Like, you know, other countries
12:03are
12:03talking in terms of millions of drones. We are still talking in the hundreds and the thousands,
12:09the tens of thousands. No, but why is that problem there, Dipesh? Why aren't we talking scale? Because
12:15we require scale. I mean, those countries don't have the kind of borders we have north, west, south, east,
12:22all over. We have hostile, hostile neighbors and vast areas to protect in the Indian Ocean region.
12:27So the problem today is, there is a concept wherein everything happens in a sequence. The government
12:34has given us the policy, the government has given us the highway to drive our cars, but we have to
12:40make
12:40them. The thing is, if you want to be a Formula One driver, you start from Formula 2000, then you
12:46go up
12:47and up. Now, in India today, the development and the innovation ideology has been sunk in very recently.
12:54Now, there is a problem in India wherein the government can give you a policy, the government
12:59can give you a vision statement, but there has to be risk appetite or the risk money which needs to
13:05come from the industry. Now, the government can only give you an idea. For example, the Air Force,
13:10when the Meher Baba happened, they gave us a challenge which was a character in front of us saying,
13:16if you achieve these targets, there is no free money. You have to achieve, you have to fight,
13:22the character building is being done with a vision in front of you. But there was no grant or there
13:27was no free money. So every company which participated was looking at the end goal and focused on that.
13:32So that needs to be the culture which can create champions in India.
13:37Okay. Sandeep, while we talk about, you know, tinkering with technology, upgrading technology,
13:45where are we lacking in that pace? I know Ukraine is fighting a war with their back to the wall
13:50and
13:51they need everything and they can, you know, short circuit all the systems to deploy. Anything that
13:55works is good. Here, you have to ensure the system works. But how do you make it shorter, more productive,
14:01and more productive for the industry, not just to manufacture in India for us, but also to export
14:06to friendly nations? Good question, Gaurav. And I think one way of doing that is to create civil
14:12military fusion. Right now, this is a problem across the board. You're seeing that whether it's in space
14:16or it's in defense, you know, you have, you're working in silos. The private sector works, you know,
14:22commercial is one aspect and defense is another. You need an all of nation approach. And I think you need
14:28a
14:28program of the kind that we have seen with the IGMDP. We are self-sufficient in missile technology
14:34today, Gaurav, because of that very visionary program launched in the 80s, the integrated guided
14:38missile development program. We need something similar for drones. We need a massive IGMDP-like
14:45program which will enable us to produce drones at scale, get the industry together, create the kind
14:50of ecosystems you did with the missile programs, create that in the drone ecosystem as well,
14:56for offensive drones, for defensive drones, UAS, all of those things, you know, offensive,
15:01defensive, basically two. You need two big capabilities. You need to attack the enemy and
15:08you need to protect from the enemy attacks. These two capabilities. Let me now shift focus from attack
15:14drones to counter drone systems because they're equally important. Remember, the adversary is also using the
15:21same swarm drones to target your vital assets and vital points. So, Dipesh, we have the ability to
15:29strike deep at the same time. Do we have the ability to neutralize incoming threats? Again, look at what
15:35China is doing. Their laser-guided munition. During Opsundur, we had second world war,
15:42ZOO-23 and L-70s that were being used. They work very effectively, but then next level of sophistication
15:49required drone interceptors, drone nets, lasers. Where do we stand since you're, again, in the business
15:56of manufacturing interceptors? So, again, it's a misconception that India is not moving at the same
16:03pace. So, there are programs within the Indian Air Force, within the Indian Army and the Navy to counter the
16:10drones.
16:10Now, the drone countering is a very open-ended sphere wherein there are interceptors for short-speed drones
16:19like FPVs, but then you have a different one for a Shahid and then you have a different one for
16:24the jet-based
16:25kamikaze. So, it is a whole space which needs to be looked at. So, Indian Army is looking at interceptors
16:31for short range. They are looking at nets. They are looking at lasers. The smart ammunition, this is something
16:37which the Indian Armed Forces are now realizing that a proximity-based smart ammunition is something
16:43which would be the future. So, it's, again, a lot of things in the Armed Forces in India are done,
16:48not in silos, but sometimes below the radar because there is a process that they follow.
16:54Yes. So, you know, Sandeep, be it a disaster like the one we're seeing in Nepal right now,
17:01unfortunately, drones can play a very critical role even in being communication relay stations.
17:07And I believe industry is working on high-altitude pseudo-satellite or HAPS, long-endurance stratospheric
17:15surveillance. What do we know about where are we there? Because if communication collapses,
17:21you can launch a drone to be that relay communication center. Well, absolutely,
17:26Gaurav. You know, and HAPS is the very acme of the kind of drone technologies that we are seeing.
17:31That's, it's literally a pseudo-satellite as the title suggests. It floats in the stratosphere and it's,
17:37you know, in orbit for days on end, almost like over a month. That's the planned goal to have these
17:44orbiting like little satellites that you can launch up, beaming real-time footage. Now, that kind of
17:50capability if you have. It's an all-pervasive, all-seeing eye in the sky. You don't have to
17:56have those kind of satellite constellations. You can launch literally hundreds of these HAPS,
18:01and these HAPS in turn can be used to create a kind of a kill chain where they are directing
18:06drone
18:07swarms. They're directing jet-powered kamikaze drones. You know, in the first days of the battle,
18:12these systems will take over. They'll ensure that your warfighters are protected from the enemy. They
18:18don't have to go in and, you know, carry out the kind of risky missions that Air Force aircraft
18:23normally have to do, manfighters have to do. So they take a lot of the, you know, heavy lifting in
18:28the opening hours of a conflict. So they protect our assets. They are expendable. That's the best part
18:34about them. And there is this concept, Gaurav, that's emerged now with this thing of drone warfare,
18:40you know, becoming rampant. And it is called precision mass, where you have drones literally
18:46in the hundreds of thousands, which it's almost contradictory, right? You can't have mass and
18:51yet be precise. But this is what the concept is. Precision mass. And this is where artificial
18:55intelligence and network centric warfare becomes so critical, Dipesh, since you're in the business.
19:03And so God forbid, next time the balloon goes up, you know, Operation Sindhu will not see fighter jets.
19:12They'll probably see these high altitude, you know, pseudo satellites, their long endurance,
19:19stratospheric surveillance, being our eyes in the sky, and then our swarm drones going. All again,
19:26you have to ensure that the enemy cannot jam their signal. So all of this is pre-programmed.
19:30Artificial intelligence guiding them to that target. That's how the next war is going to be fought.
19:35So there will be a manned, unmanned collaboration, which is what the US and even the Indian armed
19:41forces are working on. So there will be artificial intelligence, there will be guidance, there will
19:47be certain level of decision making, which always will be done at a certain command and control level.
19:52But having a complete unmanned warfare will not probably happen, at least not now. The technology
20:01is there. But for the right precision, for the right decision making, the man in the loop is always the
20:07key. The soldier is always the brain behind the attack. And that is something which the Indian armed
20:13forces have always insisted. The man needs to be there, the AI does certain level of analysis, and AI can
20:20make
20:20mistakes. And we have classical example of Iran, wherein there is an issue wherein Khamenei was able
20:29to be attacked. The kill switch was activated at a very short duration of time because of the AI capability.
20:37But there was an attack on a school which killed a lot of civilians. So AI has its certain limitations,
20:45and a man in the loop is very important. Very interesting point you make. And when we talk
20:50about the counter drone system, Sandeep, India perhaps is looking at those 10 kW lasers and led jammers.
20:59How are we on ground when it comes to manufacturing? Because why everything needs to be manufactured in
21:05India is because in midst of war, the adversary could deny you technology, could deny you components.
21:11Yes, Gaurav. And that's the most important part about this, because this kind of future warfare,
21:17where countries are now starting to weaponize supply chains, it's become very important for us to
21:22secure our supplies of the most critical components of drone ecosystems. And that's the reason that we
21:27need to widen the net. We need to make a bigger drone infrastructure to protect us from these kind of
21:34supply chain disruptions. And you're looking at, you know, high-voltage lasers that can intercept drones,
21:41because that's the future, literally. Every country, you know, that's looking at countering
21:47drones is deploying high-voltage lasers to bring down drones, because there is only a certain amount
21:53of manufacturing that you can put into place to neutralize swarms. If you're looking at hundreds
21:59of thousands of drones, you have to start deploying lasers and, you know, cost-effective lasers,
22:04which don't consume a lot of power and yet bring down drones, you know, efficiently, that is what the
22:10future of warfighting is going to be. And that is where we are also making huge investments. The DRDO has
22:15had some very important, significant breakthroughs on ground-based lasers that will have to start being
22:22applied and productionized. Now, that's the most important thing that our thing from, you know,
22:28getting a product, getting a capability, productionizing it and inducting it. That is the,
22:34you know, the timeframe that we need to accelerate. Oh, absolutely. And when you look at lasers,
22:40when you look at a swarm drone that's coming in, so a net may not be able to stop it
22:45or a drone-on-drone
22:47kill. This will have to be energy on target at scale and perhaps autonomous hit-to-kill interception,
22:54Deepesh, is that what we are looking at? And where do we stand on ground in terms of technology,
23:01in terms of manufacturing, scale and deploying it on ground? So the technology is getting
23:10tested on ground right now. The point is the technology needs to be reliable. It has to be
23:15repeatable when you're giving it to the soldier, which is happening right now. Every counter drone
23:21has its limitations, which is what needs to be understood. So laser has a certain limitation
23:26that it requires a certain power. And if you miss the target or there are more targets, you need a
23:31very big facility to counter it. Now, smart ammunition is one option which a lot of countries today are
23:37looking at. Small missiles, which are not as expensive as your shoulder fired or your ATGM.
23:45But these are the kind of areas where a lot of companies internationally are working and even
23:50Indian companies are working in it.
23:52Perhaps, Sandeep, a high intensity pump action pellet gun kind of a system where hundreds and hundreds of
24:00pellets go out and bring those smaller drones down with the kind of intensity, some kind of technology
24:07like that would be required. But future warfare, Sandeep, is all about autonomous, yet networked,
24:15AI operated, off GNSS, off radio link, onboard vision, terminal autonomy. Is that what future warfare is?
24:23Yeah, absolutely. And this future that you mentioned is not that far into the future. You're looking at
24:29something, all of these technologies being deployed in a decade's time. And you're looking at fully
24:35autonomous, you know, combat robots coming into the field as early as the mid 2030s. So it's not a very
24:42long time. And what we have to worry about is that our adversaries pooling their resources and, you know,
24:49trying to, believing that they have the advantage over us and therefore trying to, you know, carry out a
24:55first day offensive. We have to guard against that. And that is the reason we need to build up our
25:01capabilities to ensure that this deterrence that we showed so effectively during Operation Sindhu, that
25:07level of deterrence continues to deter our adversaries.
25:10Oh, absolutely. Deepesh, last question and 30 seconds that I have on this part of the show.
25:15China is already displaying their, their humanoid robotic soldiers or their, you know,
25:23robotic mules to carry equipment in the high Himalayas, in eastern Ladakh, for example,
25:30rarefied atmosphere. Humans find it tough, but the humanoid robots may be able to fight.
25:37Are we at power there? Do we have a long, a lot of catching up to do on that front?
25:43So the Indian army has a program wherein they have been procuring, testing and qualifying a lot of
25:50equipment for high altitude mule replacement program. That has been going on for a very long time.
25:56The Indian army already has a logistics drone requirement, which is out as of today for the
26:01Indian companies to participate, wherein the Indian army has also benchmarked certain areas in that high
26:06altitude, a certain capability, which the companies need to have. And there are companies in India,
26:12which have demonstrated successfully that capability. Because future of warfare, ladies and gentlemen,
26:19is manned, unmanned, operating in tandem. And you have to be ahead of the curve, ahead of the
26:26adversary. Deepesh Gupta and Sandeep Puneetan for joining me here on this Battlecry special broadcast.
26:32Many thanks. That's a story we'll be tracking very closely. But that is all I have for you on Battlecry.
26:37Many thanks for watching. News and updates continue on India today. Stay with us.