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The Battle Cry podcast explores the evolution and advancements of India's missile technology, highlighting the pinpoint accuracy and stealth capabilities of the BrahMos supersonic cruise missile during Operation Sindoor.
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00:14During Operation Sindhoor, one of the biggest achievements of the country was
00:19Marin India missiles hitting Pakistan with pinpoint accuracy. The BrahMos
00:25supersonic cruise missiles and the number of targets they decimated whether it
00:30was Pakistani air bases or the terrorist headquarters and with me is the
00:36man who's worked on the BrahMos project, was recruited as a young scientist in
00:41defense research and development organization, had worked on the
00:44integrated missile development program, had worked very closely with Dr. APJ
00:49Abdul Kalam, the missile man of India. With me is eminent scientist and chair of
00:55DRDO, former BrahMos Aerospace Chief Dr. Sudhir Bishra. Sir, welcome on the Chakraview
01:02podcast. Thank you for hosting me on this show. Thanks. What went through your mind
01:07sir when the BrahMos supersonic cruise missile was decimating Pakistani air bases
01:13and terror camps because you worked on the project so extensively. You see I and my
01:17team, we all were waiting for this moment for more than 25 years because as a
01:24scientist we all feel that whatever we have created it should be put to the usage and
01:31in the battle it has proved its metal and Operation Sindhuur has given us
01:39opportunity to serve motherland. So did you know that your missiles would go and hit with
01:44pinpoint accuracy wherever they were launched? Without any doubt because we did
01:49hundreds of tests of this missile and we knew that nothing bad will go with the missile.
01:57And the Chinese radars will not be able to spot it, they will not be able to intercept it? No,
02:01nobody will be, even if somebody spot it, the missile is having the capability, it is having the speed, kinetic
02:08energy, stealth characteristics and destructive power.
02:15Very difficult to stop. Tell us a little more, of course we have worked with the Pakistani side but now
02:19we want to hear the Indian side of the
02:22Brahma's achievement because it's supersonic, the only supersonic cruise missile. World's fastest. World's fastest. World's fastest.
02:29World's fastest supersonic. 2.8. It's about 2.9. 2.9. 2.9 and it's you see 2.9 when
02:36we say it means close to around thousand meters per second and you know the speed of a bullet is
02:44around 450 meters per second so it's much faster than even the bullet of a normal usually used rifle.
02:52So the speed is its strength, number one and the second is its stealth. The missile is mostly made up
03:02of composite and if you see it's having pencil shape so it's difficult for radar.
03:07Third thing is it flies much closer to the sea or land surface. So again very difficult for radar to
03:16detect. Another thing is it's a kinetic energy. You see it delivers nine times more kinetic energy than a normal
03:27missile.
03:27So nine times means the damages are caused by the missile, missile, missile, steel. The second is explosive. The third
03:38is the fuel. Fuel, whatever leftover fuel is there that also explodes and destructs the things. So it's a one
03:47of the best missile system in the world existing as on today.
03:51And no wonder, I mean look at countries in the neighbourhoods, Southeast Asia, Vietnam, Indonesia, Philippines. It's a great thing
04:00that they all want to either buy it or have already bought it.
04:03Yes. And I tell you like Philippines, they bought it for the coastal defence. There is an opportunity for them
04:10to buy for their navy, their army and air force.
04:15So when we sell Brahmos. So when we sell Brahmos or for that matter when India sell any weapon to
04:21a country, a friendly country. So we are developing a friendship not for the one year, two year, five year,
04:29it's for the 30 year, 40 year, 50 years.
04:32Because normally the missiles are designed for 10 years. Then you go for life extension. Then life extension, this cycle
04:39gets repeated at least eight, nine times.
04:42So we are able to use the missiles for around 40, 45 years. In fact, the Minuteman is for more
04:49than 55 years. American missile.
04:51That's very interesting. And you know, the true intercontinental ballistic missile. Since you mentioned Minuteman, I was going to come
04:59to that much later.
04:59We'll discuss it later. Do we need an ICBM? Do we have an ICBM that can go 11,000 kilometers?
05:07You see, Brahmos is a, it's a offensive weapon and it's a tactical missile.
05:13Tactical means it can deliver a conventional payload. So initially we developed it for 300 kilometers.
05:20Now, as I understand and read it in the media that the range has become much, much longer.
05:27You read it in the media. We write what you tell us, sir.
05:30No, no, no. What I want to tell you that I'm not going to say anything which is not in
05:35the open domain.
05:37True, true, sir.
05:38It's everything, whatever I say is available in the media. I'm only consolidating and presenting it to you and for
05:45the benefit of your viewers.
05:47True. So the Brahmos NG would be lighter and yet can go further. Do I understand that correctly?
05:56No, no, no. The Brahmos NG is only up to 300 kilometers.
06:00Right.
06:00But it is much lighter version. It would be about 1.2 ton.
06:06Right.
06:06The Brahmos is, it's around 3 ton, you can say. Right.
06:11For Army version. For Air Force, it's about 2.2. Right.
06:15But for Brahmos NG, 1.2 ton, it will be much sleeker and it will be using the latest state
06:27-of-the-art technologies.
06:29You see, the present Brahmos, although we designed it in the 90s, but we kept on working advancement in the
06:37different versions of the Brahmos.
06:38Yes. So whatever Brahmos is available today, it's much, much more different than what we created in the 90s, but
06:45still there's a limit to it.
06:47Right.
06:47So, Brahmos NG, as the name suggests, next generation, this would use latest state-of-the-art materials, manufacturing processes,
06:59plus electronics, and it will be a completely different missile.
07:04Another thing would be, like in the Sukhoi 30, as on today, we can take only one Brahmos.
07:09One. Correct.
07:10But in this, we would be able to take five at least.
07:13Five?
07:13One in the belly, yeah.
07:14Two.
07:15So there will be five hard points.
07:16Five hard points.
07:18So the missile would be able to go.
07:19So much more, you know, capability you are providing to Air Force.
07:23Yeah, because Sukhoi can take about eight tons of payload.
07:27Yes.
07:28And you see, on the ground launcher, land launcher, as of now, we have only three.
07:33Correct.
07:34So we would be able to put more, maybe eight.
07:37Wow.
07:38So the number would go.
07:40And the cost also would be reduced.
07:42And the damage it will inflict on the enemy will be much more because more missiles.
07:47More missiles you are going to use.
07:48You will be hitting him with more missiles.
07:50Yes.
07:50And so, you know, I want to take you down memory, ladies.
07:56When, you know, when we were reading about Dr. APJ Abdul Kalam, I've had the privilege
08:00of meeting him and interviewing him.
08:03He was very keen that we have to make it ourselves.
08:07We have to do it.
08:08We have to achieve it.
08:09And people used to mock him at times, saying that he is going to turn India into a banana
08:16republic.
08:17We can't make everything.
08:18We have to buy it.
08:19But ultimately, he has been proven right.
08:22You see, you have all shades of people in our country.
08:26But establishment and the government and his team, they all trusted him.
08:37And we knew that whatever he is doing, it is going to make India much, much more, you
08:44know, strong country.
08:45And you, in the life, you will always find some people who enjoy criticizing or, you know,
08:55telling that we are not capable, we can't do it, why to do it.
08:58So let's, you know, ignore those people and focus on the mission given to us by a nation.
09:05What was the mission that he gave you?
09:07He gave you.
09:07So you were very young, fresh out of, if I remember correctly, IIT Madras.
09:1222.
09:13I was 22 and half.
09:14And in fact, later I came to know that in my interview board, Dr. Kalam was also there.
09:21Sir, he recruited you.
09:23He recruited me.
09:24And you see, when we joined DRDL, in fact, internet was not there.
09:30And the media also was not so much informed.
09:34So nobody knew what DRDL, Defence Research and Development Lab in Hyderabad is doing.
09:40So once we reached inside the campus, then people told that we are doing the R&D of missile systems.
09:48And they also told that Dr. Abdul Kalam, he has come here only one year back and he feels that
09:57we can make missiles.
09:58And this lab has never made even one missile.
10:02And he has brought five projects to make.
10:04Agni, Prithvi, Akash, Nag, Trishul.
10:07Five projects.
10:08Integrated missile development program.
10:09And I tell you, every person in the laboratory was energized.
10:14They were, and if somebody was not energized, then the workload has made him energized.
10:20Because the amount of work, what you will do for one project, then five times the work we were doing.
10:26And I tell you, the whole lab used to work from 9 o'clock onwards till late night.
10:34So it was a completely different experience.
10:37And we youngsters, we are very lucky that we got an opportunity to work in such an energized atmosphere.
10:45But he had that vision.
10:46He had the vision.
10:47And not me alone.
10:49There were hundreds of people who were motivated by looking at his way of working.
10:57And I tell you, people came to know later that he was a great man.
11:02But when we were working, we learned many things from him.
11:06The most important thing is, we found Dr. Kalam a very human person.
11:11He was.
11:12Very human.
11:13Number one.
11:14Number two, he was a man who believed in getting informed and in quite deep details.
11:25You can't superficially tell him that this will happen like this.
11:29No, no.
11:30He will drill down.
11:31He will drill down into each and every subsystem component to know what is going to happen.
11:37And look at the success.
11:40Agni is one of our successful missiles in all versions.
11:44All versions.
11:44Prithvi did very well initially.
11:46150 kilometers range.
11:48Even Prithvi is serving even now.
11:49And serving even now.
11:50Yes.
11:51Akash, even in Obsindoor, was defending our skies.
11:55No, you are forgetting that we have exported it to Azer Bazaar.
11:58And we have exported it.
12:00Azer Bazaar.
12:00Akash missile.
12:01And there are, I tell you, dozens of countries waiting in the pipeline to buy this missile.
12:07Imagine.
12:07Because this missile, the kind of control, command control it uses,
12:15it's having the seeker, but it's a command guidance.
12:18Correct.
12:18So, it's fantastic.
12:20You can maneuver it towards the incoming aircraft target.
12:26And we are coming out with many more versions of BrahMos.
12:29Yeah.
12:30Akash.
12:31Sorry.
12:31Akash.
12:32Akash Plus, Akash NG.
12:34So, they would give much more capability to our country.
12:37And it's very cost effective.
12:40It is very, I was told.
12:42Very cost effective.
12:42The similar kind of missiles cost at least three, four times than the cost of this missile.
12:48Again, Akash proved itself during Operation Sindhu.
12:51Operation Sindhu.
12:51It defended some of our very critical assets.
12:53Yes.
12:55Which are classified.
12:57And I was in one of those locations.
12:59Okay.
13:00I was in one of those locations which Pakistan repeatedly tried to target one of our strategic assets.
13:06And they failed.
13:07I interviewed the Akash team.
13:09Okay.
13:09And how they were able to beat back the Pakistani attacks that came in.
13:16But Akash, Nag and Trishul.
13:19Those still had a little…
13:23No.
13:24Not Nag.
13:24Nag is…
13:26Our army has already ordered the regiments of Nag.
13:29But initially it had some issues.
13:31Initially it had.
13:32Because what happens, Nag was…
13:34At that time it was a third generation anti-tank guided missile.
13:37And ATGM.
13:38When the whole world was working on the first and second generation, we have undertaken a
13:43project which was very futuristic in the nature.
13:45Wow.
13:45So that is why…
13:47And you see the components, materials, they were not available at that time.
13:52So our laboratories, they worked and they developed those advanced seekers.
13:59And today Indian army has already ordered and we are going to deliver them in thousands
14:04and thousands of the numbers.
14:06Wow.
14:06They are tens of thousands in numbers.
14:08And the Nag…
14:10Now you see what happens to the missile, or for that matter any defense weapon, if you
14:15make one kind, then the next version becomes much easier.
14:20Okay.
14:20Then the subsequent versions become much, much more easier and you can employ the latest
14:26state-of-the-art technology onto them.
14:28So the services are also very, very happy to use.
14:31So this integrated guided missile development program of the 1980s, the progress through
14:371990s and 2000s, now where are we when it comes to India's missile technology?
14:43Because I believe very recently, we are also doing MIRV.
14:47Very few countries can do multiple re-entry vehicles independently.
14:54Multiple independently targeted re-entry vehicles, MIRV.
14:59And we can do it?
15:00We can do it.
15:01We have done a test.
15:05Wow.
15:05About two months back.
15:07And we have successfully demonstrated it.
15:10And you see what happens?
15:12In the missile technology, you cannot fail and declare it as a success.
15:17Because so many other countries are also watching it.
15:19Correct.
15:20From their satellite, from their ships, from the land-based radars.
15:25So they know that if India has declared something successful, then they will verify, yes, they
15:32have done it.
15:32So we have done MIRV and MIRV technology is very, very different.
15:37You see, I would like to give you an example of Minutesman.
15:40So Minutesman is more than 50-year-old missile.
15:43Okay.
15:43And it, you know, the kind of performance Minutesman can deliver, the similar performance
15:49our Agni series of missiles also can deliver.
15:52Now, what is that?
15:53That is, you see, what happens as you enter into the, what I mean, re-enter into the atmosphere.
16:01Correct.
16:02So then you can inject the warhead, the nuclear warhead into the atmosphere targeted at particular
16:11place on earth, geographically identified place.
16:15Now this warhead is having a precision guidance and a very, very precision propulsion system.
16:24Very precise.
16:25So that can guide the warhead to the destination.
16:31There would be such, you know, injected warheads, maybe three, five, seven or ten in numbers.
16:39Wow.
16:39Because they are all pegged inside the main warhead.
16:42So warhead keep on, it opens and keep on injecting.
16:46One, everything is planned.
16:48There is a, everything is planned by the software.
16:51So nothing happens by chance, nothing happens accidentally.
16:55So everything is planned, keep on injecting and the enemy is taken by the surprise.
17:01Because enemy is watching that your warhead is injected.
17:06So it is preparing its air defense system to target it.
17:09Correct.
17:10But the moment I inject one, he feels that this is the one.
17:15Then he targets the first one.
17:17Then the second one, fifth one, sixth one.
17:20Very difficult for them to take on, number one.
17:23Number two, you can, you know, you can give it an area, an elliptical area.
17:29And that area, it can be, you know, it can hit at various locations.
17:34So damage will be much more.
17:37Another thing is, if you, if you, you know, even if you try to take on the warhead, the small
17:47warhead, it can be dummy also.
17:50So.
17:50So they will not know which is the real one.
17:53Which is the one, which is the, you know, real, real or unreal.
17:56So the dummy one also can be there.
17:58We are also testing the hypersonic missile.
18:02Yes.
18:03How are we there?
18:04How good are we?
18:05Because I believe the scramjet technology, we are really working.
18:10How successful, how confident are you that our hypersonic missiles will be better than anybody else?
18:16You see, I tell you, if, you know, as a scientist, I have been watching, last 20 years, the development
18:24in the hypersonic technology.
18:26Russians, they have realized it.
18:27US joined Australia and they have not yet mastered the technology.
18:36Another country is China.
18:38China, have they taken it from Russia or it's of their own?
18:44There is a trace of doubt in that.
18:47So our program is completely indigenous.
18:51For the benefit of your viewers, I would like to tell you the difference between supersonic and hypersonic.
18:56There are two differences.
18:57The first difference is supersonic means three times the speed of sound.
19:01The moment it goes more than five, it becomes hypersonic.
19:07Hypersonic.
19:07So hypersonic usually is seven, eight or ten Mach, ten times the speed of sound.
19:12Now, this is a very, you know, common sensical understanding.
19:18The second difference is in the supersonic missile, you know, there is a nozzle.
19:25So in the nozzle, the entry is supersonic, the combustion takes place in the subsonic region and the exhaust is
19:33again supersonic.
19:34But in the hypersonic, the entry is, entry of the air is at supersonic.
19:40The combustion also takes at supersonic speed.
19:43And the exhaust is at hypersonic speed.
19:46So in the, you know, if the air is, you know, blowing, then you try to light a matchstick.
19:54That will find very difficult.
19:56Now imagine, it's supersonic combustion.
20:00You know, you are trying to ignite fuel when the air is blowing at the speed of, you know, almost
20:07350 meters per second, 400 meters per second.
20:12Meters per second, so difficult.
20:14So the technologies are, number one, you have to have a fuel injection.
20:19Because the moment you inject a fuel, it will blow away with the air.
20:22So you have to ignite it.
20:24Then you have to have a, you know, a flame retainer.
20:30You have to retain the fuel, flame.
20:32That's a story we'll be tracking very closely.
20:35The rise of India's missile power and a weapons exporter country.
20:41That is all I have for you on this India Today special broadcast.
20:44Many thanks for watching.
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