- 6 days ago
A massive controversy has erupted following the removal of protest photographs taken by Rehan Vadra from an exhibition at Delhi's Bikaner House. Panelists including art curator Kishore Singh, IIMUN founder Rishabh Shah, lawyer and Her Haq founder Anya Wick, Congress national spokesperson Gurmehar Kaur, and BJP national spokesperson Sanju Verma debated the issue of artistic freedom versus venue regulations. While arts advocates and the opposition argued that documenting public dissent through street photography should not face blanket censorship, Sanju Verma defended the venue's actions, asserting, 'Freedom of speech and freedom of expression under Article 19 of the Constitution are not absolute.' Verma stated that the exhibition violated specific Bikaner House guidelines restricting political content, rejecting allegations of political vendetta.
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00:00There's a saying that everything is political and there's politics in everything.
00:06Having said that, takedown of certain pictures of Frehan Wadra has now sparked a massive censorship
00:12row.
00:13We're going to take it to our panelists this evening.
00:16Joining me, Sanju Verma, National Spokesperson, Bharatiya Janata Party, Gurmeher Kaur, National
00:21Spokesperson, Congress, Anya Wick, Founder, Har Huck, and she's also a lawyer, Rishabh
00:27Shah, Founder, IIMUN, and Kishore Singh, Art Curator and Art Writer.
00:33Kishore Singh is also a distinguished curator known for his exhibitions that engage with
00:38modern and contemporary art.
00:40I'd like to begin, you know, before we come down to our political guests, allow me to go
00:45to our other guests there.
00:48Mr. Singh, I want to bring you in.
00:49I just want you to give in your views and weigh in on where you stand in this controversy.
00:55You know, it's ironical and a bit of a coincidence that just last month I opened two exhibitions
01:03as a curator at Bikaner House.
01:05Bikaner House is central to us in Delhi as an art hub.
01:11And therefore, what happens there has an impact not just across the city, but across the entire
01:19art fraternity and all platforms across the country.
01:25For me, what is, I mean, what I fail to understand is, why is it that photographs of protests are
01:37taken down from an exhibition and the venue is immaterial to this, when the same images are
01:44all over social media, when they're in our newspapers, they're on the front pages?
01:48Why is it that we're not censoring any of that?
01:51Why are we not closing or shutting down social media and its impact, but shutting down an
01:57exhibition?
01:58It just seems to me to be low-hanging fruit.
02:01And that is something that has happened throughout the course of our history, irrespective of the
02:07governments at the center, et cetera.
02:09We've seen censorship.
02:11And when we're working towards exhibitions, we work with a sense of awareness of what we
02:18can or cannot put in the public domain.
02:21And surely that's not something that is good for what we see in terms of creative expression
02:29in the country.
02:31Well, you still have 26 seconds to go.
02:33Mr. Singh, I'll come right back to you.
02:35You might think of it an abomination, but we do give.
02:37Because it's news, as an artist, it might be limiting, but we give two minutes' time
02:41to all our panelists.
02:43But thank you for your submissions.
02:45I want to cut across right now to Risham Shah, founder, IIMU.
02:49And I just want to get your views in before we go into a full-fledged debate.
02:53Thank you, Preeti, for having me on the show.
02:56And I think it is important in order to follow and abide rules.
03:00But at the same point in time, everything need not be followed by what is, you know, everything
03:06did not go according to what is written in law.
03:10Some things are also to be followed in the spirit of the law.
03:13And to that end, art and cinema and theatre should not be something that should be governed
03:19like this.
03:20I think the BJP is sending out very wrong messages.
03:23To me, it seems that they are clutching at the straws of power.
03:27And it comes across to young people, whether it is or whether it isn't, in that manner.
03:32The more you grab at sand, the quicker it's going to slip through your fingers.
03:38It would be better for them in order to deal with satire, to deal with art in the way people
03:45in the past have.
03:46Prime Minister Vajpayee was a great example of this.
03:48And I remember growing up watching Shekhar Suman's movers and Shekhar's.
03:54And he used to make a lot of jokes on the Prime Minister.
03:57And the Prime Minister, it is famously known that he stopped a convoy once in Mumbai and
04:03went and greeted Shekhar Suman.
04:05So that's the kind of India that I've grown up watching and seeing.
04:09And the kind of things that we're seeing today, it is not something that I think young
04:16people want to see.
04:17At the same point in time, it is important to note that when you cross the line and when
04:22you say things that are anti-national, anti-government is one thing, but anti-national is another.
04:27And to that end, from my understanding, I don't think any of what Rehan Wadra was showing was
04:32anti-national.
04:33And to that end, I don't think there should be any problem in having his art exhibited in
04:39the Bikan Air House.
04:40The BJP should have been magnanimous and should have allowed it.
04:43I think it's under two minutes as well.
04:45Yeah, it's under two minutes as well.
04:47I think, you know, wait till we get to the political spokespersons.
04:52It's all under two minutes till the time we have artists and founders of art and exhibitions.
04:59I want to, you know, bring in Anya Vig.
05:01Anya, please wait.
05:02Your two minutes.
05:04I'm going to try and keep it lesser than two minutes, but I agree with everything that's
05:08being said here today.
05:09As a citizen of this country and as somebody that appreciates art, I've been to Bikan Air
05:14House multiple times, seen multiple exhibitions.
05:17And like you rightly said, I think any piece of art is political.
05:21The question is, what do you mean by that?
05:24And I think art can be political without being partisan.
05:26I think it can be political without being unlawful.
05:30And I really think sometimes if the fact that we're uncomfortable with a piece of art or
05:35with a piece of photograph, it cannot automatically mean that we take it down.
05:40Dislike a photograph, disliking with the opinion of an artist, disliking with a piece of artwork
05:45cannot mean pure censorship.
05:49I feel and I believe that India is one of the largest democracies in the world.
05:53And I think by that, we should be confident with the fact that our citizens should have
05:57the power to document dissent, to debate it, to disagree with it.
06:01And I think this conversation is bigger than, Rayyan, the fact that what has happened in
06:06Bikan Air House will now affect artists across the country.
06:09And I think so rightly said it, that now artists are going to think twice before they show anything.
06:15Because I think who decides what's political and what's not?
06:18And the fact that perceived unacceptability is what's guiding this debate.
06:23What is the notion is that this narrows public debate and artistic expression, regardless
06:28of whether you agree with what was happening in the pictures or not, whether you disagree
06:32with the nature of the protests or what they were protesting for.
06:35I think there should be no blanket takedowns.
06:38And the fact that the policy in itself is so vague, how it was applied, how publicly managed
06:45institutions deserve to be transparent, regardless of who is exhibiting there.
06:50So I think this is all I would say, that any art, any expression is political at the end
06:55of the day.
06:55I was a part of the women's protests many weeks ago.
06:58And anything that we said was technically political nature.
07:01So if we are being told that the fact that you were in a protest and you're demanding for
07:05your rights and just because your face is out there...
07:09Your two minutes are over now, Anya.
07:11But, you know, thank you all three of you for giving us your opinion.
07:15I just want to go to the political spokesperson.
07:16And I would really hope both of you will also limit to two minutes because that's what the
07:20timer is.
07:21And Sanju Verma, I want to bring you in first.
07:22And before, you know, we get to you, I just want to...
07:25We tried our dammit's best to include and get an artist who would say that he agreed
07:30with the takedown of the photographs.
07:33But Sanju Verma, you would understand our submission.
07:36You'd rarely find a photographer who'd say it's okay to take down my photographs.
07:39So we tried very hard.
07:41We were unsuccessful.
07:42But I want to bring you in.
07:44Sanju Verma, is the problem with the photographs, because they're anyway all out there, or is
07:49the problem with the photographer keeping in mind Bikan Airhouse is managed by the Rajasthan
07:54government, which is managed by the Bharatiya Janata Party?
07:59You know, so let's get one thing very clear.
08:01Freedom of speech and freedom of expression under Article 19 of the Constitution are not
08:06absolute.
08:07They are subject to reasonable restrictions pertaining to public order, morality and health.
08:11So for everybody out there who's giving bhasan to the BJP on Article 19, please go and read
08:16the Constitution and educate yourself.
08:18Point number two, for Priyanka, Vadra, Rahul Gandhi and the entire Garbari ecosystem to
08:24suddenly say, oh, Rehan Vadra is the son of Priyanka Vadra and hence his artwork is being
08:29demonized.
08:30Again, go back and educate yourself and read the Bikan Airhouse guidelines, which clearly
08:35say that any content which contains nudity, any content which has a political content and
08:43any content which has communal undertones that cannot be displayed.
08:49So did the Bikan Airhouse violate its own guidelines simply to marginalize Rehan Vadra?
08:56No, you've got to be kidding me.
08:57Rehan Vadra is not that important.
08:59But equally, Rehan Vadra is not above the law of the land.
09:03The law applies to everybody without any discrimination whatsoever.
09:08The third and most important point.
09:10You want to know, Priyanka Vadra, what censorship is?
09:13I will tell you, censorship is when the Congress banned a movie called Andhi in 1975.
09:20Censorship is when the Congress banned a movie called Chissa Kursika in 1977.
09:26Censorship is when the Congress Party banned a movie called Sikkim in 1971.
09:33Censorship is when Nehru, a political biography, that film on Nehru was banned in 1975 by his daughter Indira Gandhi.
09:43Censorship is when Dev Anand's films were banned lock, stock and barrel on Doordarshan.
09:50Censorship is when Garam Hava was banned in 1973.
09:55Censorship is when V.S. Naipaul's book, An Era of Darkness, was banned in 1964.
10:04Madam, time is up.
10:05Before I go to Gurmehar, because, you know, I'm going to give you 20 more seconds,
10:08because you elucidated on how it was very clearly written in the policy of Bikan Airhouse,
10:15and you detailed that policy for us.
10:16But the allegation, Ms. Verma, is that the takedown of photographs were also where images of just the Indian flag
10:26were there.
10:27Now, how in any which way was that political?
10:30Having said the fact that, you know, artistic expression, everything seemingly is political.
10:36But how is, in the political sense, a picture of the Indian flag political?
10:42So let me answer that fair and square.
10:45Suddenly, everybody from the Darbari ecosystem has developed a love for the Tiranga.
10:50This is the same Rahul Gandhi, Tiyanka Vatra, Robert Vatra, who had the audacity to say,
10:55when the BJP undertook the Har Ghar Tiranga exercise,
11:05So when the BJP celebrates Har Ghar Tiranga, it is Jumle Bazi.
11:10But if Rehan Vatra wants to showcase some artwork, which is incendiary in content,
11:16I'm supposed to sit back and...
11:18But Sanjeev Dharma, allow me a rebuttal here.
11:20Allow me a rebuttal.
11:21Let's say it's newfound love for the Tiranga.
11:24Let's just say that.
11:25That's what it is.
11:26Even if it is newfound love for the Tiranga, for Rehan or the Gandhis,
11:30why should it be pulled down?
11:32Because it's still not political.
11:34My simple logic is this.
11:37Did Rehan Vatra violate the Bikaner House guidelines, yes or no?
11:41The answer is yes.
11:43And so what?
11:43How?
11:44Miss Verma, when there's a flag, when there is a Tiranga and only this...
11:48Ma'am, I'm asking you because...
11:50Ma'am, it's a question.
11:51It's a pointed question.
11:52I'm playing the image along with the question.
11:54Ma'am, I'm giving you a pointed answer to the pointed question.
11:59You and me do not decide what the Bikaner House guidelines are.
12:03And I repeat, Rehan Vatra says BJP is politicizing it.
12:07I can turn around and say, Priyanka Vatra, Robert Vatra and the Darbaris are politicizing this entire issue
12:13because at the epicenter of this controversy is somebody called Rehan Vatra
12:18who besides a surname called Vatra has nothing to his credit at this point in time.
12:22Okay, Miss Verma, you know, that cuts both ways
12:25because some would suggest that, you know, this is everywhere.
12:28It's a Tiranga.
12:29It doesn't really violate the policy.
12:30I'm reading the policy as I speak.
12:32And if this artwork was taken down, then it's not really coherent with the policy of Bikaner House
12:37because this is...
12:39It's political because it's a flag, but it's really non-political because it's the flag.
12:42How do you read that?
12:43I want to bring in Gurmeher Kaur into this conversation.
12:46Gurmeher Kaur, the question is very clear, which has been elucidated and detailed by Miss Sanju Verma.
12:51And that is Bikaner House has clear guidelines and policies.
12:57The images and the pictures, the photographs were in violation of that policy.
13:02And that's where the buck stops.
13:04I think it's not...
13:05You know, first of all, I do want to make a clear distinction.
13:09This is not about the Congress versus the BJP.
13:11It is about a young artist.
13:12It is about their right to speech.
13:14It is about the kind of censorship that has been going on.
13:16Coming back to the point of the policy, it has been well documented.
13:21Raihan himself has spoken in multiple interviews that on the 15th of October,
13:25he had given out the layouts of the photographs, of the plan, of where he planned to put which photograph.
13:31There was no response from the Bikaner House director or from the Bikaner House administration and management
13:38to those photographs.
13:39On the 20th, they sent a noticing, political photographs are not allowed.
13:44I think there's one question to be asked, what is political?
13:46Because the photos that he put is what's happening five minutes from where Bikaner House exists, right?
13:56It has no political slogans.
13:58It has no political leaders in the front and center.
14:01It's street photography.
14:02If the streets of Delhi looks like that, if the streets of Delhi are filled with people protesting,
14:08if the streets of Delhi are filled with men in uniform with lattes,
14:14then that's what's happening in the country, right?
14:16You cannot...
14:17To me, the objection is...
14:20To me, the problem is that first, all of last three weeks, you have arrested students.
14:25You have detained students.
14:26You have picked them up from the streets.
14:28You have put them in buses and you have locked them up.
14:31And today, when a photographer puts out photos of what has happened,
14:34puts out street photography of what has happened with no logos, no political parties, no political leaders,
14:40you then ask, you know, you then ask the artist to turn the... to take the photos out.
14:45The artist then turns the photos back on the wall, says, I'm still going to...
14:49We won't display it, but let us still make a statement and let us still talk about what's, you know,
14:54what's happening.
14:55Then they pile it and put it in a corner.
14:57Then the Bickener House administration is not even happy with the photos piled in a corner.
15:02They want to take that and put it in a locker.
15:05So, you know, you are left...
15:06All right, you know, allow me to give all of you just one minute time each,
15:09because that's all the time we have for to put in your submissions, Mr. Singh.
15:13Please begin.
15:13One minute, sir.
15:14Final comments.
15:16The point that one...
15:18I mean, we're talking about rules and regulations, et cetera.
15:22There's huge ambiguity over there.
15:24What makes something political?
15:26What defines nudity?
15:27If I take a photograph from one of our temple sculptures
15:30and put it into an exhibition at Bickener House,
15:34does that then contradict the rules of Bickener House management
15:41as far as exhibitions are concerned?
15:44Who's qualifying this?
15:45Who's checking this?
15:47In my own exhibitions over there, I've seen, with their morality clause,
15:51that they come in, inspect your works,
15:54and may take one or two works out, may ask you to remove some works or whatever,
15:59but other parallel works remain.
16:01So there is absolutely nothing in the guideline
16:05that defines exactly what you can or cannot put up in an exhibition,
16:10and eventually it must be left to the public to decide
16:15what is art and what is not art.
16:18Well, you know, put it all together in a sharp one minute.
16:23Richam Shah, your turn, sir.
16:26I think all form of expression, whether it be art
16:30or whether it be political satire, whether it be comedy or theatre,
16:35is something that should not be regulated
16:37and should not be censored in the way that it is being censored in the recent past.
16:42I think this is a way of expression for young people and for people at large.
16:46It should be left best to the interpretation of those who are watching it
16:50and those who have made it.
16:53And to that end, it would be better suited for any government to let this continue
16:58and to show, like I mentioned earlier, the magnanimity of being able to take a couple of jibes at them,
17:05considering majority of them would be in good spirit.
17:09And the idea that up until the time it goes into an anti-national part of it,
17:14they should not interfere in this.
17:16Even, like I said, even if the laws exist,
17:19even if the rule book existed,
17:21because of the nature of the case
17:23and also because of the sensitivity of what has been happening in the country in the recent past,
17:27this was a great time for them.
17:29All right.
17:30Anya, one minute.
17:33I think the thing that I would say is talking about Article 19 subclause 2,
17:37there are restrictions on our freedom of expression,
17:40but I fail to understand how the representation through these pictures,
17:45including inciting public disorder, decency, morality,
17:48went against any of these restrictions.
17:50I really think it does not mean that just the fact that there could be a political controversy
17:55automatically justifies suppression of expression.
17:59And I think freedom of expression means very little.
18:01If it's only producing and protecting the opinions of those in power
18:05or those that are comfortable hearing some particular opinions.
18:09And I think my defense of the artistic freedom doesn't depend on whose child it is,
18:13which party they belong to, what they're showing.
18:15I think the concern is that could there have been less restrictive measures?
18:19There are reasonable questions for any publicly managed cultural venue.
18:25All right.
18:26Sanju Verma, one minute, ma'am.
18:29You know, with no offense to none,
18:32everybody on this panel out there who's saying,
18:34oh, artistic freedom needs to be protected.
18:37Excuse me.
18:38I want to ask the artistic community.
18:40Where were you when a satirist called Aseem Trivedi
18:45was arrested by the Congress government in 2012?
18:50Where was the darbari ecosystem when a movie called
18:53Indu Sarkar by Madhur Bhandarkar on the emergency
18:56was banned in 2017 in Congress ruled states?
19:01Where was the artistic community?
19:04Rahul Gandhi, Priyanka, Vadra and their darbaris,
19:07illiterate darbaris when a movie of Ashutosh Gowarikat
19:10called Paanipat was banned in Rajasthan under Ashok Gehnot in 2018?
19:18And to the artistic community who support darbaris,
19:23where were you when a movie called Padmavati
19:26slash Padmavati was banned in Rajasthan in 2019
19:30under Ashok Gehnot is...
19:33Ma'am, your time is up, but I'm quite sure if, you know,
19:36if you are a true artist and photographers are artists,
19:40you would have spoken then as well.
19:42But then point taken, Guru Meher Kaur, one minute.
19:45I think the debate just comes down to something very simple,
19:48that when a publicly-administrated cultural institution,
19:52you know, what should it be?
19:53Should it be a space where art can be challenged, questioned,
19:57and should it be a space where we can document society?
20:00See, if every uncomfortable image can be removed simply
20:04because it's considered political,
20:06then the question is what remains of artistic freedom?
20:08Guru Meher, if I'm allowed to hold your prompter,
20:10there's a case in point that Ms. Varma is also making,
20:13which is political hypocrisy from the Congress
20:15because every time it's freedom of expression
20:17which you want to exercise, it's freedom of expression,
20:20but where you are in power or you're in power in a state,
20:25then, you know, you're okay with how the shoe fits.
20:28No, I don't think so.
20:29One, I really do want to talk, which is why I said
20:31I don't think it's about the Congress versus the BJP, right?
20:34I think freedom of expression for all artists should be there.
20:38And I think Ma'am said,
20:39where were you okay?
20:44I don't have any answers for what has happened in the past.
20:52And I'm certain in 2012 also I would have spoken up
20:57for the integrity of the artists.
20:59Similarly with Padmavit, the movie,
21:02we've spoken up for the freedom of expression
21:04of the artists in the film.
21:06In fact, many have written about Deepika Padukun and the kind of...
21:11All right.
21:12Well, that's all the time that we have for now.
21:13I'm sorry we have a clock,
21:15which is quite an antithesis of artistic expression,
21:17but that's, you know, news and that's how debates flow.
21:20I thank all five of you for taking the time out and joining us.