00:00Mr. Epstein on suicide watch. Yes, he watched. However, the average time on suicide watch is only about 24 hours
00:06because it is such a stark and actually depressing situation. Christmas ornaments, drywall, and Jerry Epstein. Name three things that
00:17don't hang themselves. That's what the American people think. That's what the American people think.
00:24Then how widespread is the problem of sleeping on the job? There are lots of people in the public who
00:29think this seems a very convenient excuse. And so tell us, is it a systemic problem? Do we have a
00:35lot of people who sleep on the job when they're supposed to be guarding federal inmates?
00:38We have a few, sir. And we have been monitoring the cameras that are existing in every one of our
00:43institutions to determine how well and how effectively our inmates are, I mean, our staff members are doing their rounds.
00:48As I indicated in my opening statement, I wanted to talk about the death of Mr. Epstein. Do you concur
00:55with the opinion that it was a suicide?
00:59That was the finding of the coroner, sir.
01:01Okay. Do you have any evidence to suggest otherwise?
01:04I do not.
01:04How could this have happened?
01:07Unfortunately, sir, the death and the whole situation is still under the investigation of the FBI and the Inspector General's
01:14office.
01:15And I'm really not at liberty to discuss specifics of this case.
01:19I can discuss issues around institutional operations, but I can't specifically talk about that particular issue.
01:26Okay.
01:27With a case this high profile, there's got to be either a major malfunction of the system or a criminal
01:34enterprise at foot to allow this to happen.
01:37So are you looking at both?
01:39Is the FBI looking at both?
01:41If the FBI is involved, then they are looking at criminal enterprise, yes.
01:45Do we have people in custody today of this high profile nature?
01:50Have we done anything to adjust since Mr. Epstein's death?
01:54Sir, we take every inmate's life very seriously in the Bureau of Prisons.
01:58A high profile inmate is no more important or significant in terms of our operations than just the average inmate
02:04that comes our way.
02:05What do I mean high profile?
02:06Somebody's on a suicide watch.
02:08I would like to explain our suicide watch system, if I may.
02:11I can't talk specifically about Epstein, but we have different tiers of response if we identify an inmate who appears
02:17to have suicidal thinking.
02:19And I came into the Bureau as a psychologist.
02:20I worked with lots of suicidal inmates.
02:22I was a warden at our psychiatric facility in Butner, and I know how difficult it is to always be
02:26able to predict who is suicidal and who is not.
02:28But once an inmate is identified as potentially suicidal, we have a suicide watch operation that we can place them
02:34in.
02:34It's a very stark, very difficult setting where everything is stripped from the room except a mattress.
02:39They get a coarse gown like to wear that cannot be twisted in any way that they could hang themselves
02:44from it.
02:45They have one mattress and one blanket, and they are watched constantly.
02:49There's nothing else in that room.
02:50Is Mr. Epstein on suicide watch?
02:51Yes, he watched.
02:52However, the average time on suicide watch is only about 24 hours because it is such a stark and actually
02:58depressing situation.
02:59We then can move them to another tier of observation, which is called psychological observation.
03:04Did that happen in this case?
03:05I can't speak specifically, but I am sharing this with you so that you understand our procedure, sir.
03:11They then can move to another tier, which is psychological observation, where they get their clothes back.
03:16They're in a more normalized setting.
03:18They are watched and scrutinized every moment of the day, but that is a much more normal environment.
03:23Do they have roommates?
03:24I'm sorry, sir?
03:26Do they have roommates?
03:27No, they do not when they're on psychological observation because they're being watched continuously.
03:31Did Mr. Epstein have a roommate when he allegedly committed suicide?
03:34No, he did not.
03:35Okay.
03:36Go ahead.
03:38They move into psychological observation.
03:41Psychologists see them routinely, interview them repeatedly, and once it's determined that the threat of suicide
03:48seems to have passed, then that inmate can be returned back to open population.
03:53Well, clearly, it didn't work here, so we await the report because all the victims of Mr. Epstein have to
04:00have their heart ripped out.
04:02I'll still never see justice.
04:06Dr. Sawyer, can you think of any other incidents in the history of the BOP that have caused as much
04:12crisis for public trust for your institution as Epstein's death?
04:16I can only speak since 1976 when I joined the Bureau.
04:20I don't know prior to that, but I would say it's probably gotten the most public attention.
04:24There are lots of taxpayers and citizens who've never thought about the BOP, and you have lots of good, patriotic,
04:29hard-working folks there.
04:30I get that.
04:31But in terms of a crisis of public trust in general, but also in terms of your workforce, this death
04:37happened in the middle of August, early August.
04:39It's Thanksgiving, and you're here to testify today, and you say you're not allowed to speak about this incident.
04:44I think that's crazy.
04:46Can you distinguish among types of investigations, at least for us?
04:49Because I'm aware of at least three Epstein investigations.
04:52You get a whole bunch of women who were raped by this guy.
04:55This is a sex trafficking ring in the United States.
04:58This guy had evidence.
04:59He's got co-conspirators, and there are victims out there who want to know where the evidence has gone.
05:05Can you tell us a little bit more about the different investigations?
05:08I understand there's at least one that you're directed by Maine Justice not to speak about, but there are at
05:13least three investigations.
05:14Can you unpack them, please?
05:16There are two investigations that are ongoing.
05:18One is the FBI's investigation, and the other is the inspector general's investigation.
05:22Both inside BOP, but there's a third one outside, which is why Epstein was in your institution to begin with.
05:27Yeah, and that, sir, is completely out of my...
05:29I get that.
05:30There's a lot here where DOJ has failed.
05:33There's a lot here that BOP has failed.
05:34Let's just be clear, so we have a level set for everybody in this room.
05:37You're in your job because of this crisis, right?
05:40You come here today, and you say you can't testify about it, but the reason you're directly,
05:44the director now is because the last guy got fired, right?
05:46Senator, I can't tell you what I don't know.
05:48I have received no information from the FBI investigation yet, nor no information from the inspector general.
05:54Once those entities go into one of our facilities, we are forbidden from talking to anybody in the institution.
06:00We can send in a team and look at wherever there might have been a security flaw or something,
06:04but we are not allowed to talk to anybody in our institutions about anything that happened over the Epstein...
06:09With all due respect, you still have an obligation to speak to the girls who were raped by this guy
06:14today.
06:15You may not have to speak about every particular of the guards that were arrested last night,
06:19but the fact that there is an ongoing attempt by the United States government to find out
06:24if there's still any evidence about the co-conspirators,
06:27you do have an obligation to speak to those girls who were raped today.
06:30You may not speak about the specifics of the charges against those two guards this morning
06:36who were taken into custody, but more broadly, you should be able to unpack,
06:40have we changed any processes about how cases like this are handled?
06:44It's been more than 90 days, and you said, I think your quote was,
06:48we treat every inmate the same.
06:50We believe in America that every individual has equal dignity,
06:53but not every inmate has equal value for future criminal investigations.
06:58Jeffrey Epstein was still to testify in a case.
07:01Somebody who's already been convicted, who may be on suicide watch,
07:04there are lots of good reasons to not want that guy to be able to kill himself.
07:08This is different, because it isn't just about the individual inmate who might kill themselves,
07:13it's about the fact that that bastard wasn't able to testify against his other co-conspirators.
07:18So it is wrong, as a management matter, for you to say we treat everybody the same.
07:23We should be treating people who are yet to testify against other felons, against other rapists.
07:29They have a lot more priority for your institution, don't they?
07:33Senator, pretty much all of our inmates that are in any of our jail facilities are pretrial.
07:37They're still yet to testify, to be involved, to share information on other cases.
07:41I don't know what evidence you're asking of me.
07:43If you're saying was there any evidence in his room, in his possession at the time,
07:46that was all confiscated by the FBI.
07:48In his brain, and in the cameras, and in the tapes, that the American public well understands
07:52appear to not be urgent enough for the Department of Justice.
07:56No, it's very urgent for the Department of Justice, and it's all been confiscated by the FBI,
08:00and it's all part of their investigation.
08:02That's why none of that is shared with the director of the Bureau of Prisons,
08:05or anyone in the Bureau, until the investigations are completed.
08:08Once those are completed, I'd be very happy to come up here and talk with any one of you
08:12that want to hear everything about we glean from those investigations.
08:15But until I have that information, there's nothing I can tell you.
08:18If I don't have the information, I cannot share anything with you.
08:22Then how widespread is the problem of sleeping on the job?
08:25There are lots of people in the public who think this seems a very convenient excuse.
08:29And so tell us, is it a systemic problem?
08:32Do we have a lot of people who sleep on the job when they're supposed to be guarding federal inmates?
08:35We have a few, sir.
08:36And we have been monitoring the cameras that are existing in every one of our institutions
08:41to determine how well and how effectively our staff members are doing their rounds
08:45and counts in the institutions.
08:47We have found a couple of other instances,
08:49and we have immediately referred those to the inspector general's office.
08:52And I'm encouraging that if people just chose not to do their job,
08:57we're hoping the U.S. Attorney's Office will pick up those cases and prosecute them for us
09:01because we don't want those people in the Bureau of Prisons.
09:03They are dangerous to everybody, the inmates and the staff.
09:06And so we are zealously going about trying to determine which of our employees are good employees
09:12and who do their job, and that is the vast majority of the prison staff.
09:16But we do have some, I know, out there who obviously choose not to follow policy,
09:21choose not to do their job, and we want them gone.
09:24I do not want them in our institutions, and I am exploring those very, very carefully
09:28to identify them and get them out of our system.
09:30Now, if it's a training problem and they didn't know what they were supposed to do,
09:34that's our problem.
09:35That's management's problem.
09:36We have to do a better job training our staff.
09:38But if someone is well-trained, well-experienced, and chooses not to do their job,
09:42we want them gone.
09:44I assure you of that.
09:45I'm at time, so I'll just give you a preview of something I'm going to ask you for the record
09:49after the event.
09:50You made a really important statement about drone drops of different kinds of contraband
09:54into your institutions.
09:55That's obviously a new and hard problem.
09:57That's a problem against which we have to play defense,
10:00but there's also new opportunities for offense.
10:02And so what's your long-term strategy is inside the institution about cameras?
10:06It's something that I think a lot of us would like to hear more,
10:08and I'll send you a letter with some questions.
10:10Because Epstein's hallway should have still been monitored by cameras,
10:13even if his guards were asleep,
10:15and we don't have information about whether or not there were adequate cameras there.
10:18And so I think a lot of us would like to understand where technology dollars are going.
10:22Absolutely.
10:22Thank you, Dr. Sauer.
10:23Thank you, Senator.
10:23Senator Blumenthal is next, but just to follow up on this,
10:26will there be an IG report regarding what happened?
10:29There should be.
10:30Usually after the Inspector General's Office investigates,
10:32they do come out with a report.
10:33If people are pending criminal charges,
10:35we're not going to interfere in their cases.
10:37But if there's an IG report,
10:38I promise you we'll get fully briefed by the committee here.
10:45How can I put this?
10:49Christmas ornaments, drywall, and Jerry Epstein.
10:54Name three things that don't hang themselves.
10:57That's what the American people think.
11:00That's what the American people think.
11:03And they deserve some answers.
11:06And I know that you're not in charge of these investigations.
11:11Yes, sir.
11:11But you talk to the people who are.
11:15And I need you to take a very respectful message today.
11:25Tell the American people what happened.
11:28And don't rush it so that they don't do a thorough investigation.
11:32But you and I both know they can make this a top priority
11:37and get it done more quickly than they normally would.
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