00:00As I indicated in my opening statement, I wanted to talk about the death of Mr. Epstein.
00:05Do you concur with the opinion that it was a suicide?
00:11That was the finding of the coroner, sir.
00:13Okay. Do you have any evidence to suggest otherwise?
00:16I do not.
00:16How could this have happened?
00:19Unfortunately, sir, the death and the whole situation is still under the investigation of the FBI and the Inspector General's
00:26office,
00:26and I'm really not at liberty to discuss specifics of this case.
00:31I can discuss issues around institutional operations, but I can't specifically talk about that particular issue.
00:38Okay. With a case this high profile, there's got to be either a major malfunction of the system or a
00:45criminal enterprise at foot to allow this to happen.
00:49So are you looking at both? Is the FBI looking at both?
00:53If the FBI is involved, then they are looking at criminal enterprise, yes.
00:56Do we have people in custody today of this high profile nature?
01:02Have we done anything to adjust since Mr. Epstein's death?
01:06Sir, we take every inmate's life very seriously in the Bureau of Prisons.
01:10A high profile inmate is no more important or significant in terms of our operations than just the average inmate
01:16that comes our way.
01:17What do I mean high profile? Somebody's on a suicide watch.
01:20I would like to explain our suicide watch system, if I may. I can't talk specifically about Epstein, but we
01:25have different tiers of response if we identify an inmate who appears to be having suicidal thinking.
01:30And I came into the Bureau as a psychologist. I've worked with lots of suicidal inmates.
01:34I was a warden in our psychiatric facility in Butner, and I know how difficult it is to always be
01:38able to predict who is suicidal and who is not.
01:40But once an inmate is identified as potentially suicidal, we have a suicide watch operation that we can place them
01:45in.
01:46It's a very stark, very difficult setting where everything is stripped from the room except a mattress.
01:51They get a coarse gown like to wear that cannot be twisted in any way that they could hang themselves
01:56from it.
01:57They have one mattress and one blanket, and they are watched constantly. There's nothing else in that room.
02:01Mr. Epstein on suicide watch?
02:03Yes, he watched. However, the average time on suicide watch is only about 24 hours because it is such a
02:09stark and actually depressing situation.
02:11We then can move them to another tier of observation, which is called psychological observation.
02:16Did that happen in this case?
02:17I can't speak specifically, but I am sharing this with you so that you understand our procedure, sir.
02:22They then can move to another tier, which is psychological observation, where they get their clothes back.
02:28They are in a more normalized setting. They are watched and scrutinized every moment of the day.
02:33But that is a much more normal environment.
02:35Do they have roommates?
02:36I'm sorry, sir?
02:38Do they have roommates?
02:39No, they do not when they're on psychological observation because they're being watched continuously.
02:43Did Mr. Epstein have a roommate when he allegedly committed suicide?
02:46No, he did not.
02:47Okay.
02:48Go ahead.
02:50They move into psychological observation. Psychologists see them routinely, interview them repeatedly,
02:55and once it's determined that the threat of suicide seems to have passed, then that inmate can be returned back
03:02to open population.
03:04Well, clearly it didn't work here, so we await the report because all the victims of Mr. Epstein have to
03:12have their heart ripped out.
03:14They'll never see justice.
03:18Dr. Sawyer, can you think of any other incidents in the history of the BOP that have caused as much
03:24crisis for public trust for your institution as Epstein's death?
03:27I can only speak for the, since 1976 when I joined the Bureau, I don't know prior to that, but
03:33I would say it's probably gotten the most public attention.
03:36There are lots of taxpayers and citizens who've never thought about the BOP, and you have lots of good, patriotic,
03:41hardworking folks there.
03:42I get that.
03:43But in terms of a crisis of public trust in general, but also in terms of your workforce, this death
03:49happened in the middle of August, early August.
03:51It's Thanksgiving, and you're here to testify today, and you say you're not allowed to speak about this incident.
03:56I think that's crazy.
03:58Can you distinguish among types of investigations, at least for us?
04:01Because I'm aware of at least three Epstein investigations.
04:04You get a whole bunch of women who were raped by this guy.
04:06This is a sex trafficking ring in the United States.
04:10This guy had evidence.
04:11He's got co-conspirators, and there are victims out there who want to know where the evidence has gone.
04:17Can you tell us a little bit more about the different investigations?
04:20I understand there's at least one that you're directed by Maine Justice not to speak about, but there are at
04:24least three investigations.
04:26Can you unpack them, please?
04:27There are two investigations that are ongoing.
04:29One is the FBI's investigation, and the other is the Inspector General's investigation.
04:34Both inside BOP, but there's a third one outside, which is why Epstein was in your institution to begin with.
04:38Yeah, and that, sir, is completely out of my...
04:41I get that.
04:42There's a lot here where DOJ has failed.
04:44There's a lot here that BOP has failed.
04:46Let's just be clear, so we have a level set for everybody in this room.
04:48You're in your job because of this crisis, right?
04:52You come here today, and you say you can't testify about it, but the reason you're director now is because
04:57the last guy got fired, right?
04:58Senator, I can't tell you what I don't know.
05:00I have received no information from the FBI investigation yet, nor no information from the Inspector General.
05:05Once those entities go into one of our facilities, we are forbidden from talking to anybody in the institution.
05:11We can send in a team and look at wherever there might have been a security flaw or something,
05:15but we are not allowed to talk to anybody in our institutions about anything that happened over the episode.
05:21With all due respect, you still have an obligation to speak to the girls who were raped by this guy
05:26today.
05:26You may not have to speak about every particular of the guards that were arrested last night,
05:31but the fact that there is an ongoing attempt by the United States government to find out if there's still
05:37any evidence about the co-conspirators,
05:39you do have an obligation to speak to those girls who were raped today.
05:42You may not speak about the specifics of the charges against those two guards this morning who were taken into
05:49custody,
05:49but more broadly, you should be able to unpack, have we changed any processes about how cases like this are
05:55handled?
05:56It's been more than 90 days, and you said, I think your quote was, we treat every inmate the same.
06:01We believe in America that every individual has equal dignity,
06:05but not every inmate has equal value for future criminal investigations.
06:09Jeffrey Epstein was still to testify in a case.
06:12Somebody who's already been convicted, who may be on suicide watch,
06:16there are lots of good reasons to not want that guy to be able to kill himself.
06:20This is different, because it isn't just about the individual inmate who might kill themselves,
06:24it's about the fact that that bastard wasn't able to testify against his other co-conspirators.
06:29So it is wrong, as a management matter, for you to say we treat everybody the same.
06:34We should be treating people who are yet to testify against other felons, against other rapists.
06:40They have a lot more priority for your institution, don't they?
06:44Senator, pretty much all of our inmates that are in any of our jail facilities are pretrial.
06:48They're still yet to testify, to be involved, to share information on other cases.
06:53I don't know what evidence you're asking of me.
06:55If you're saying was there any evidence in his room, in his possession at the time,
06:58that was all confiscated by the FBI.
07:00And in his brain, and in the cameras, and in the tapes, that the American public well understands
07:04appear to not be urgent enough for the Department of Justice.
07:08No, it's very urgent for the Department of Justice, and it's all been confiscated by the FBI,
07:12and it's all part of their investigation.
07:14That's why none of that is shared with the Director of the Bureau of Prisons,
07:16or anyone in the Bureau, until the investigations are completed.
07:20Once those are completed, I'd be very happy to come up here and talk with any one of you that
07:24want to hear
07:24everything about we glean from those investigations.
07:27But until I have that information, there's nothing I can tell you.
07:30If I don't have the information, I cannot share anything with you.
07:33Then how widespread is the problem of sleeping on the job?
07:36There are lots of people in the public who think this seems a very convenient excuse.
07:41And so tell us, is it a systemic problem?
07:43Do we have a lot of people who sleep on the job when they're supposed to be guarding federal inmates?
07:47We have a few, sir.
07:48And we have been monitoring the cameras that are existing in every one of our institutions
07:53to determine how well and how effectively our staff members are doing their rounds and counts in the institutions.
07:59We have found a couple of other instances, and we have immediately referred those to the Inspector General's Office.
08:04And I'm encouraging that if people just chose not to do their job,
08:09we're hoping the U.S. Attorney's Office will pick up those cases and prosecute them for us,
08:12because we don't want those people in the Bureau of Prisons.
08:15They are dangerous to everybody, the inmates and the staff.
08:18And so we are zealously going about trying to determine which of our employees are good employees
08:24and who do their job, and that is the vast majority of the prison staff.
08:27But we do have some, I know, out there who obviously choose not to follow policy,
08:33choose not to do their job, and we want them gone.
08:36I do not want them in our institutions, and I am exploring those very, very carefully
08:40to identify them and get them out of our system.
08:42Now, if it's a training problem and they didn't know what they were supposed to do, that's our problem.
08:46That's management's problem.
08:48We have to do a better job training our staff.
08:50But if someone is well-trained, well-experienced, and chooses not to do their job, we want them gone.
08:55I assure you of that.
08:57I'm at time, so I'll just give you a preview of something I'm going to ask you for the record
09:01after the event.
09:01You made a really important statement about drone drops of different kinds of contraband into your institutions.
09:07That's obviously a new and hard problem.
09:09That's a problem against which we have to play defense, but there's also new opportunities for offense.
09:13And so what's your long-term strategy is inside the institution about cameras is something that I think a lot
09:19of us would like to hear more,
09:20and I'll send you a letter with some questions.
09:21Because Epstein's hallway should have still been monitored by cameras, even if his guards were asleep,
09:26and we don't have information about whether or not there were adequate cameras there.
09:30And so I think a lot of us would like to understand where technology dollars are going.
09:34Absolutely.
09:34Thank you, Dr. Swerg.
09:34Thank you, Senator.
09:35Senator Blumenthal is next, but just follow up on this.
09:38Will there be an IG report regarding what happened?
09:40There should be.
09:42Usually after the Inspector General's Office investigates, they do come out with a report.
09:45If people are pending criminal charges, we're not going to interfere in their cases.
09:48But if there's an IG report, I promise you we'll get fully briefed by the committee here.
09:57How can I put this?
10:00Christmas ornaments, drywall, and Jerry Epstein.
10:06Name three things that don't hang themselves.
10:08That's what the American people think.
10:12That's what the American people think.
10:15And they deserve some answers.
10:18And I know that you're not in charge of these investigations.
10:23Yes, sir.
10:24But you talk to the people who are.
10:26And I need you to take a very respectful message today.
10:36Tell the American people what happened.
10:40And don't rush it so that they don't do a thorough investigation.
10:44But you and I both know they can make this a top priority and get it done more quickly than
10:51they normally would.
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11:04Bye.
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