00:00Is Mr. Epstein on Suicide Watch?
00:02Yes, he watched.
00:03However, the average time on Suicide Watch is only about 24 hours
00:07because it is such a stark and actually depressing situation.
00:10Christmas ornaments, drywall, and Jerry Epstein.
00:14Name three things that don't hang themselves.
00:17That's what the American people think.
00:19That's what the American people think.
00:21Then how widespread is the problem of sleeping on the job?
00:24There are lots of people in the public who think this seems a very convenient excuse.
00:28And so, tell us, is it a systemic problem?
00:30Do we have a lot of people who sleep on the job
00:32when they're supposed to be guarding federal inmates?
00:34We have a few, sir, and we have been monitoring the cameras
00:37that are existing in every one of our institutions
00:40to determine how well and how effectively our inmates are,
00:42I mean our staff members, are doing their rounds.
00:44As I indicated in my opening statement, I wanted to talk about the death of Mr. Epstein.
00:49Do you concur with the opinion that it was a suicide?
00:55That was the finding of the coroner, sir.
00:58Okay. Do you have any evidence to suggest otherwise?
01:00I do not.
01:01How could this have happened?
01:03Unfortunately, sir, the death and the whole situation
01:07is still under the investigation of the FBI and the Inspector General's Office,
01:11and I'm really not at liberty to discuss specifics of this case.
01:15I can discuss issues around institutional operations,
01:19but I can't specifically talk about that particular issue.
01:22Okay.
01:23With a case this high-profile,
01:27there's got to be either a major malfunction of the system
01:30or a criminal enterprise at foot to allow this to happen.
01:34So are you looking at both?
01:36Is the FBI looking at both?
01:38If the FBI is involved, then they are looking at criminal enterprise, yes.
01:41Do we have people in custody today of this high-profile nature?
01:46Have we done anything to adjust since Mr. Epstein's death?
01:50Sir, we take every inmate's life very seriously in the Bureau of Prisons.
01:54A high-profile inmate is no more important or significant in terms of our operations
01:59than just the average inmate that comes our way.
02:01What do I mean high-profile?
02:02Somebody's on a suicide watch.
02:04I would like to explain our suicide watch system, if I may.
02:07I can't talk specifically about Epstein,
02:09but we have different tiers of response if we identify an inmate
02:12who appears to have suicidal thinking.
02:15And I came into the Bureau as a psychologist.
02:17I worked with lots of suicidal inmates.
02:19I was a warden at our psychiatric facility in Butner,
02:21and I know how difficult it is to always be able to predict
02:23who is suicidal and who is not.
02:25But once an inmate is identified as potentially suicidal,
02:27we have a suicide watch operation that we can place them in.
02:30It's a very stark, very difficult setting
02:33where everything is stripped from the room except a mattress.
02:35They get a coarse gown like to wear that cannot be twisted in any way
02:39that they could hang themselves from it.
02:41They have one mattress and one blanket, and they are watched constantly.
02:45There's nothing else in that room.
02:46Is Mr. Epstein on suicide watch?
02:47Yes, he watched.
02:48However, the average time on suicide watch is only about 24 hours
02:52because it is such a stark and actually depressing situation.
02:56We then can move them to another tier of observation,
02:58which is called psychological observation.
03:00Did that happen in this case?
03:02I can't speak specifically, but I am sharing this with you
03:05so that you understand our procedure, sir.
03:07They then can move to another tier, which is psychological observation,
03:12where they get their clothes back.
03:13They are in a more normalized setting.
03:15They are watched and scrutinized every moment of the day.
03:18But that is a much more normal environment.
03:20Do they have roommates?
03:21I'm sorry, sir?
03:22Do they have roommates?
03:23No, they do not when they are on psychological observation
03:26because they are being watched continuously.
03:27Did Mr. Epstein have a roommate when he allegedly committed suicide?
03:30No, he did not.
03:31Okay.
03:32Go ahead.
03:33They move into psychological observation.
03:37Psychologists see them routinely, interview them repeatedly,
03:40and once it's determined that the threat of suicide seems to have passed,
03:46then that inmate can be returned back to open population.
03:49Well, clearly it didn't work here, so we await the report
03:54because all the victims of Mr. Epstein have to have their heart ripped out.
03:59I still never see justice.
04:01Dr. Sawyer, can you think of any other incidents in the history of the BOP
04:07that have caused as much crisis for public trust for your institution as Epstein's death?
04:12I can only speak since 1976 when I joined the Bureau.
04:16I don't know prior to that, but I would say it's probably gotten the most public attention.
04:21There are lots of taxpayers and citizens who have never thought about the BOP,
04:24and you have lots of good patriotic, hardworking folks there.
04:27I get that.
04:28But in terms of a crisis of public trust in general, but also in terms of your workforce,
04:33this death happened in the middle of August, early August.
04:36It's Thanksgiving, and you're here to testify today,
04:39and you say you're not allowed to speak about this incident.
04:41I think that's crazy.
04:42Can you distinguish among types of investigations at least for us?
04:46Because I'm aware of at least three Epstein investigations.
04:48You get a whole bunch of women who were raped by this guy.
04:51This is a sex trafficking ring in the United States.
04:54This guy had evidence, he's got co-conspirators,
04:57and there are victims out there who want to know where the evidence has gone.
05:01Can you tell us a little bit more about the different investigations?
05:04I understand there's at least one that you're directed by Maine Justice not to speak about,
05:08but there are at least three investigations.
05:10Can you unpack them, please?
05:12There are two investigations that are ongoing.
05:14One is the FBI's investigation, and the other is the Inspector General's investigation.
05:18Both inside BOP, but there's a third one outside,
05:20which is why Epstein was in your institution to begin with.
05:23Yeah, and that, sir, is completely out of my...
05:25I get that.
05:26There's a lot here where DOJ has failed.
05:29There's a lot here that BOP has failed.
05:30Let's just be clear, so we have a level set for everybody in this room.
05:33You're in your job because of this crisis, right?
05:36You come here today, and you say you can't testify about it,
05:39but the reason you're director now is because the last guy got fired, right?
05:42Senator, I can't tell you what I don't know.
05:44I have received no information from the FBI investigation yet,
05:48nor no information from the Inspector General.
05:50Once those entities go into one of our facilities,
05:52we are forbidden from talking to anybody in the institution.
05:56We can send in a team and look at wherever there might have been a security flaw or something,
06:00but we are not allowed to talk to anybody in our institutions about anything that happened over the Epstein...
06:05With all due respect, you still have an obligation to speak to the girls who were raped by this guy today.
06:11You may not have to speak about every particular of the guards that were arrested last night,
06:16but the fact that there is an ongoing attempt by the United States government to find out if there's still any evidence about the co-conspirators,
06:23you do have an obligation to speak to those girls who were raped today.
06:27You may not speak about the specifics of the charges against those two guards this morning who were taken into custody,
06:34but more broadly, you should be able to unpack, have we changed any processes about how cases like this are handled?
06:41It's been more than 90 days, and you said, I think your quote was,
06:44we treat every inmate the same.
06:46We believe in America that every individual has equal dignity,
06:49but not every inmate has equal value for future criminal investigations.
06:54Jeffrey Epstein was still to testify in a case.
06:57Somebody who's already been convicted who may be on suicide watch,
07:01there are lots of good reasons to not want that guy to be able to kill himself.
07:04This is different, because it isn't just about the individual inmate who might kill themselves,
07:09it's about the fact that that bastard wasn't able to testify against his other co-conspirators.
07:14So it is wrong, as a management matter, for you to say we treat everybody the same.
07:19We should be treating people who are yet to testify against other felons, against other rapists.
07:25They have a lot more priority for your institution, don't they?
07:28Senator, pretty much all of our inmates that are in any of our jail facilities are pretrial.
07:33They're still yet to testify, to be involved, to share information on other cases.
07:37I don't know what evidence you're asking of me.
07:39If you're saying was there any evidence in his room, in his possession at the time,
07:43that was all confiscated by the FBI.
07:45In his brain, and in the cameras, and in the tapes, that the American public well understands
07:49appear to not be urgent enough for the Department of Justice.
07:52No, it's very urgent for the Department of Justice, and it's all been confiscated by the FBI,
07:56and it's all part of their investigation.
07:58That's why none of that is shared with the director of the Bureau of Prisons,
08:01or anyone in the Bureau, until the investigations are completed.
08:05Once those are completed, I'd be very happy to come up here and talk with any one of you that want to hear
08:09everything about we glean from those investigations.
08:12But until I have that information, there's nothing I can tell you.
08:15If I don't have the information, I cannot share anything with you.
08:18Then how widespread is the problem of sleeping on the job?
08:21There are lots of people in the public who think this seems a very convenient excuse.
08:25And so tell us, is it a systemic problem?
08:28Do we have a lot of people who sleep on the job when they're supposed to be guarding federal inmates?
08:32We have a few, sir, and we have been monitoring the cameras that are existing in every one of our institutions
08:38to determine how well and how effectively our staff members are doing their rounds and counts in the institutions.
08:44We have found a couple of other instances, and we have immediately referred those to the Inspector General's Office.
08:49And I'm encouraging that if people just chose not to do their job, we're hoping the U.S. Attorney's Office will pick up those cases
08:56and prosecute them for us because we don't want those people in the Bureau of Prisons.
09:00They are dangerous to everybody, the inmates and the staff.
09:03And so we are zealously going about trying to determine which of our employees are good employees and who do their job,
09:10which is the vast majority of the prison staff, but we do have some I know out there who obviously choose not to follow policy,
09:18choose not to do their job, and we want them gone.
09:21I do not want them in our institutions, and I am exploring those very, very carefully to identify them and get them out of our system.
09:27Now, if it's a training problem and they didn't know what they were supposed to do, that's our problem.
09:31That's management's problem. We have to do a better job training our staff.
09:34But if someone is well-trained, well-experienced, and chooses not to do their job, we want them gone.
09:40I assure you of that.
09:42I'm at time, so I'll just give you a preview of something I'm going to ask you for the record after the event.
09:46You made a really important statement about drone drops of different kinds of contraband into your institutions.
09:52That's obviously a new and hard problem.
09:54That's a problem against which we have to play defense, but there's also new opportunities for offense.
09:58And so what your long-term strategy is inside the institution about cameras is something that I think a lot of us would like to hear more,
10:04and I'll send you a letter with some questions.
10:06Okay, very good. Thank you.
10:07I think Epstein's hallway should have still been monitored by cameras even if his guards were asleep,
10:12and we don't have information about whether or not there were adequate cameras there.
10:15And so I think a lot of us would like to understand where technology dollars are going.
10:18Absolutely. Thank you, Dr. Schwerer.
10:19Thank you, Senator.
10:20Senator Blumenthal is next, but just to follow up on this, will there be an IG report regarding what happened?
10:25There should be. Usually after the Inspector General's Office investigates, they do come out with a report.
10:30If people are pending criminal charges, we're not going to interfere in their cases.
10:33But if there's an IG report, I promise you we'll get fully briefed by the committee here.
10:38How can I put this? Christmas ornaments, drywall, and Jerry Epstein. Name three things that don't hang themselves.
10:53That's what the American people think. That's what the American people think. And they deserve some answers.
11:02And I know that you're not in charge of these investigations.
11:07Yes, sir.
11:08But you talk to the people who are. And I need you to take a very respectful message today.
11:21Tell the American people what happened. And don't rush it so that they don't do a thorough investigation.
11:29But you and I both know they can make this a top priority and get it done more quickly than they normally would.
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