- 9 ore fa
Europa può permettersi l'aumento della difesa? Il dibattito degli eurodeputati a The Ring
Con l'aumento delle minacce ibride in Europa e la guerra in Ucraina al quinto anno, a Bruxelles si punta ad aumentare le spese per la difesa. Ma chi deve pagare, e come?
ALTRE INFORMAZIONI : http://it.euronews.com/2026/10/02/europa-puo-permettersi-laumento-della-difesa-il-dibattito-degli-eurodeputati-a-the-ring
Abbonati, euronews è disponibile in 12 lingue.
Con l'aumento delle minacce ibride in Europa e la guerra in Ucraina al quinto anno, a Bruxelles si punta ad aumentare le spese per la difesa. Ma chi deve pagare, e come?
ALTRE INFORMAZIONI : http://it.euronews.com/2026/10/02/europa-puo-permettersi-laumento-della-difesa-il-dibattito-degli-eurodeputati-a-the-ring
Abbonati, euronews è disponibile in 12 lingue.
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00:00Grazie a tutti.
00:33Grazie a tutti.
01:06Grazie a tutti.
01:08Grazie a tutti.
01:12Grazie a tutti.
01:18Grazie a tutti.
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06:01a tutti.
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06:37Grazie a tutti.
06:38europe to play a role when it comes to security and defense and i think it is time to actually
06:41live on that and just on that topic of rivalry with nato many meps reacted negatively to that
06:46um excerpt there from ursula von der line what's your view well i think that the extremes react
06:51negatively but that's that's but some from your party too well uh no not not from my party in
06:58we are asking for moving forward already for more than a year i think to be honest the problem
07:05is not in the european parliament the problem is not the commission the problem is that member states
07:11still think that they are strong enough to do it by their own and that's not true i mean there
07:17is a
07:18lot of money going on in in the different member states uh for investing in defense but not in
07:23european defense we had a target saying we need 40 percent joint procurement coming from the european
07:29markets we are on 17 17 and that's a problem and it's not when the german government is buying
07:38german or the french government is buying french that we are buying european that is something else
07:45and that is what we need the common market is a cornerstone of the european union we can deliver if
07:51we want but then the focus of the different member states has to be also on the opinion way
07:58and the second element is uh coming back on on on the quote of uh usla van der leyen we
08:06had a nato
08:07summit in ankara and there in the nato summit was clearly uh explained europe you have to do your work
08:16and that's why we need a european pillar within the nato not outside the nato but within the nato
08:22and if you want to um to to to fulfill this european pillar well then you need an article
08:29four comparable with the european treaties then you need european uh security council then you need
08:36uh then you stop then you need to stop the fragmentation and you need critical enablers
08:43on the european at the european field and just to be is back to the money because of course in
08:47brussels
08:48we're talking about the long-term budget there's 131 billion that was the proposal from the european
08:52commission but many from think tanks say that's not enough it should be around 500 billion what's
08:56your take i mean it's it's quite clear if you want the european union to do more you need more
09:02funding
09:02i think that that is clear i think there are debates about uh own resources at the moment but who
09:06should
09:07pay one thing one thing for me is really important here is that we don't go into this false dichotomy
09:13of thinking that we can do all our defense spending which is absolutely necessary with the mff that's
09:20not what the mff is built for and actually when it comes legally you aren't even allowed to buy
09:24weapons from the mff money and i think it's really short-sighted uh some of the discussions that we are
09:29having when now some people who always wanted to have cuts and cohesion and social cohesion funds
09:34on regional cohesion funds know try to justify that with defense i think that is really self-damaging
09:40and doing putin's homework because not only will that never be enough money that we actually need
09:44for defense it also really allows putin to do what he is trying to do with his hybrid attacks
09:49that is he's not terrified that much of our armies i wish he was more terrified of our armies
09:53he's terrified of our working democracies he's terrified of our social cohesion he's trying to
09:58divide us from within and if we then allow him to create this false dichotomy between social cohesion
10:04and security that is completely wrong you can't have one without the other we are doing his own work
10:08well i can see you're both getting warmed up but it's now time to move on to the next round
10:15and now i put you in the spotlight to ask the questions just like you do inside the hemicycle
10:20tobias would you like to start with your first question yeah i actually uh have a question uh because
10:25i know that we've we've traveled together even to ukraine on a mission so i know that you are
10:29very strong points on on support for ukraine um but in germany for instance right now we have issues
10:35that uh far right party the afd might participate in a state in a state government that means access to
10:42sensitive classified documents and our secret services our minister of defense is even saying
10:49uh maybe we should stop sending them such classified documents because there's a very high risk that
10:54these parties are giving them through to putin so there's a very clear link there's even some debate
10:59whether they receive money from uh from putin and my question to you even on a personal level is how
11:04you feel that some people in the epp are actually trying to work together with the afd on some issues
11:10and i'm really wondering is this a trustworthy party if we at the same time have to wonder if they
11:15give
11:16classified information to putin oh for me it's a quite easy uh question because uh for me the answer is
11:23clear no the afd is not a trustworthy party the afd is the enemy for the european citizens the enemy
11:33for
11:33economic growth the enemy for our common security for me it's clear as that but have you have debates
11:40in your group because like we've seen whatsapp chats where they've coordinated on different laws in
11:46advance it was like it wasn't accidental majorities like do you have these debates in the group
11:50about what extent to cooperate yeah we have debates within our group like you have debates in your
11:56group uh saying do we have to cope and to work together with extreme left because for me the
12:02extremes extreme left and extreme right they are all of the same uh cup of tea you can't work with
12:08them
12:09when it is about how can we make europe stronger when when when when we look to the extreme right
12:16then
12:16they say no no no we don't want this once because uh we want to organize this on the national
12:23level
12:23not on the european level and when you look to the extreme left they say no we don't want to
12:29have this
12:30on the european level because the european level that is the free market and we are against the free
12:35market but both both are enemies for a stronger europe but very popular among the people as we saw
12:42recently in elections in saxony arnold your turn now to address your first question to tobias well
12:47i know that you are a strong believer for european defense and you started saying that we need a common
12:55market also on on defense we agree on this but you're also in the german government and you have the
13:03minister of defense can you convince your minister of defense working with european projects and not
13:13only with german projects you are the best the most important investor in defense that's a huge investment
13:21for germany and we appreciate this but it would be more efficient if the german minister of defense
13:30would take the lead for this european approach i completely agree that we need a european common
13:37of defense the problem is until we don't have it we have an incentive structure that creates perverse
13:43outcomes where it very often actually is in the interest of individual nation states to go it alone
13:49but in the end this is not in the interest of europe as a whole so what i think is
13:53not necessarily try
13:54to go to this government or this government and change that particular person or government stance i think
13:59we really need to change something structurally here we need to break out of the 27 bonsai markets
14:04we need to have one market then we need to have coordination on the demand side but we also i
14:09i i want
14:09to be in a place where it's not just bilateral uh countries or governments trying to tell industry
14:15produce this or this but i really want in here actually i believe in the free market that we want
14:20more free market in the european level more competition and more effective industry are you satisfied with
14:25that answer well it's always good hearing uh when i are saying a socialist that he's for the free
14:32market so i appreciate you yeah you do get on actually very well well actually now we've given
14:38you a nice little flavor of how the real debates are inside the committee sometimes they get a little
14:42bit more heated than they do today and but of course we need politicians to get on in order to
14:46have
14:46progress but now it's time to move on to our next round and it's time to bring in a new
14:51voice
14:55i would like to bring in the voice now of theo franken belgian defense minister speaking right
15:00here at the euro news's defense and space summit here in albert hall he said that he was in a
15:05very
15:06difficult position he said he couldn't undo in 18 or couldn't do in 18 months what was neglected
15:12quote for 40 years take a look europe has been um very good in investing in soft power in social
15:19security and it's it's beautiful to have a pension system to have social welfare systems and when
15:25somebody's got sick when somebody's lost lost his job we have everything but when there's war or when
15:31there's hybrid threats we don't we have we have anything so yeah we were in a really difficult
15:37position and belgian was really bad pupil in the past but trying to step up so trying to do in
15:4218 months
15:43what was undone or what was neglected really for 40 years your reaction well i think that we are now
15:50in a new uh episode and we have to work for the future i can talk a lot about the
15:55past i was i formed
15:58a government in belgium when i was party leader with the party of uh uh theo franken in 2011 2012
16:05and also there there was a a decreasing of the defense uh investment so let's not talk about
16:14the past but let's let's talk about let's talk about the future that is that is what uh what
16:18counts or let's talk about the present and right now many national governments are talking about
16:23their budgets for 2027 and defense is not really getting a look in it's more bread and butter issues
16:28i think defense is a bread and butter issue uh very very clearly and if you look at the german
16:34budget
16:34for instance i think that is actually something that we should look at also on the european level
16:38but not in all countries as the point was made i want to make the point about what we did
16:41in germany
16:41because what we didn't do was try to cannibalize on everything else and try to basically get the
16:47putin speaking points of saying oh we we cut uh pensions we cut social coherence we cut investments
16:53no we said these are two different things we have a one like a unique threat situation right now
16:59and this is why in germany we said okay defense spending is so essential and important
17:03that we set up it outside of our normal budget we opened the debt break but what we did was
17:10to
17:10show our populations that yes defense investment but we combined it with 500 billion investment in
17:16infrastructure showing them very clearly that it's not defense or social cohesion and infrastructure
17:22but that the two are two sides of the same coin i think we actually need to start thinking about
17:26something in the in the same level on on the european level to really be a little bit more audacious
17:31instead of trying to move within the existing budget small things back and forth i think really
17:35really need to start thinking about strong independent findings and mechanisms we've started
17:40with that with safe but i think there's way more to go and of course it's housing it's health care
17:44it's child care it's welfare those are the issues on the minds of people as politicians we also have
17:49to be a little bit educational also to the voters saying what is going on and how do you do
17:54that
17:54without scaremongering when i'm amongst the people they ask me what is europe doing for our security
18:00what is the answer and if you explain this uh in in in a good way then i think that
18:08you can convince
18:09the people but so what is the answer what do you tell them in 20 seconds well let me uh
18:13come back on
18:14your first question if we spent 400 billion yearly 2024 2025 with a lack of efficiency of 20 percent
18:25it's 80 billion it's more or less the budget of the the uh of germany defense spending of germany
18:32i cannot say to our people to our citizens you have to spend more we will ask your taxes for
18:39this
18:40but we will not do it on the most efficient way that is what we need to do and do
18:45it on the most
18:46efficient way and when we can when we can gain 20 percent 20 percent then we can explain to the
18:53people why it is necessary but i actually think i don't think we need to like i in some ways
18:58trust
18:58the people there are more i think the people very often are further than politicians on this point
19:01if you look at the service for instance in germany over two-thirds for over the last couple of years
19:07since the russian and full inflation in ukraine have been in support of more defense spending
19:12but the question is not the weather the question is the how and if we just go back and look
19:16at the
19:17list that we wanted to have in the 1990s that's not going to work that's not going to cut it
19:20the
19:20report said 30 percent inefficiencies so we have to pay better we have to pay european and we also have
19:26to spend much more on research and development the americans i think are spending on average 16 70
19:31percent of their defense budget on research and developments we do on average i think four or five
19:35percent that can't be the future especially now with new technology we need to fundamentally rethink
19:40how we spend together european and forward-looking and speed up when it gets from the lab of course to
19:46the market but that's another debate on the ring it's all about the how and now here today on the
19:50ring
19:50and it's time to move on to our next round
19:55and here on the ring we're always worried and curious about what our viewers think about the various issues
19:59and like we've already in fact alluded to here on the ring security is a major issue for the citizens
20:05if you look at a recent euro barometer 68 percent of europeans believe that their very country
20:12is under threat and if you look deep into that euro barometer it says that the highest threat
20:18perception is in france followed by the netherlands and then denmark and then also cyprus and germany
20:25that's seven in ten who feel their country is under threat that's quite something i mean it's
20:30i think it's logical people aren't stupid people see what's happening in their countries i mean
20:34i'm from germany we just recently had an attack that i wouldn't call hybrid anymore
20:38we had russian drones fixed with explosives in on our airport in leipzig that could have caused
20:47huge damage and loss of life we in germany alone in the last year i think have on average suffered
20:53losses to our economy due to hybrid attacks of up to 270 billion that's three times our defense
20:58budget in the in the previous year we see attacks on our infrastructure in the baltic sea we see the
21:05meddling in our elections we see the the attempts of bots of russian bots to to interfere in our
21:10elections people see that they understand that we are under threat but i think the important part
21:14for us is here to keep calm but to also really show that we are delivering and that really means
21:19not
21:19going back into the old habits but looking forward what can we do differently and the expectation is
21:24to do it on a european level because people are clever they see it is more efficient and it is
21:28more
21:28forward looking to do that on a european level within nato and that very point of keeping calm that
21:32was the very message of marco ruta the secretary general of nato who is here as well at our uranus
21:37space and defense summit how vulnerable though do you think we are with the bucket to a really
21:43huge cyber attack here in europe well i think that we are very vulnerable i don't think that
21:49the russians are coming into the european union to our borders immediately but they are trying to
21:56destabilize uh european democracies that is what they did uh in saxon anhalt that is what they try
22:01will try to do in in france that is what they did in a lot of other countries when there
22:06were elections
22:07uh or or what's the plan to counter this and how much and so that is that is why we
22:12have to say
22:13to the people that this is a real threat for europe and why are the russians trying to do this
22:20because they want to try to influence of course the european population they want to say stop with
22:28the solidarity with the ukraine people and and stop with with with paying for the for the european
22:35because there's a lot of very clever agenda people we've heard some fascinating very deeply
22:40informed intelligent people what is the solution i think the solution is first of all to get our act
22:44together when it comes to defense on the european level we are the we are it's also not undersell
22:49ourselves we are the second largest economy in the world we have the strongest social model in the
22:52world so we can start translating that into real capabilities and on the other side i would say
22:56very clearly when we see these cyber attacks from russia let's not just go into the trap and go
23:02onto the escalation circle where putin thinks he has an advantage and just attack hybrid attacks
23:06of hybrid attacks no let's see where do we have a comparative advantage and i would say for instance
23:10one leverage we have is that 210 billion of putin's money is sitting frozen in our accounts and we
23:17already have seen now that the us and russia are talking about it want to use that's a big debate
23:21in
23:21belgium of course we can bring in our belgian mep that we happen to have here of course on euroclear
23:26belgium on podge there well uh you cannot ask the belgian taxpayers to pay for this so we need a
23:32common ground for this and if there is no common ground i think that we cannot discuss about this
23:37right now and that's one area where most belgians do agree we we all we always have said we need
23:45money
23:45also for the reconstruction of ukraine and once there is a peace agreement we can uh with an international
23:51agreement also uh look to to this to this money but right at the moment uh if there is no
24:00legal base
24:01to do this you cannot ask from the belgian taxpayers to pay for to pay the bill but i think
24:07there are
24:07solutions like one suggestion is for actually for instance to actually move that account the money on
24:13that account onto an eu entity and then i would say because it's clear we must we must carry also
24:18the
24:18responsibility together but i think at the same time we can't just wait and see let maybe the
24:23americans are going to take the initiative maybe they're coming up with a good solutions we can't
24:27just keep expecting that they're going to be the the the the night coming in and shining armor saving
24:31saving the day we need to get into the initiative and we need to see what are our comparative points
24:36of leverage where we can also use that in negotiations that come ahead i don't want to be constantly
24:41reactive as european i want to start finally being proactive and also laying out our plan
24:45for negotiations with russia how do you get put into the negotiating table and what is our plan for
24:50peace in europe proactive i think that's a word that will go down well with our viewers that brings
24:55our fourth round to an end it's time now to move on to the final one
25:01and as we're hearing on the ring there is no time to waste and that's why this final round is
25:07a little
25:07bit special i'm going to ask you some questions and you can ask with either yes or no how does
25:12that
25:12sound not easy of course for a politician is european sovereignty possible yes or no yes
25:21of course yes can europe ever become a hard power yes or no yes it is should we be planning
25:29and
25:29preparing for a war yes or no we should prepare for war to avoid war yes or no i agree
25:35would europeans
25:37survive an invasion yes or no yes of course are we in the eu a snowflake society yes or no
25:48sorry are we a snowflake society no absolutely not can the eu defend itself without help from our
25:56american friends yes or no not yet and yourself we can but we shouldn't strive for that should military
26:09conscription be reintroduced all across the european union yes or no yes not at this stage should women
26:16in europe learn to fight yes or no i think if they want to yes why not is a common
26:24eu army a good idea
26:25yes or no yes we have one it's called nato should ukraine be allowed to join nato as soon as
26:32possible
26:32yes or no once the war's over yes well let's start with the european defense union and let's join
26:40ukraine in this european defense union and final question are you optimistic about the future of the
26:46european union yes or no it's always better to be an optimist who's wrong than a pessimist who's right
26:50so yes i agree and what about our studio audience optimistic about the future of the eu
26:56yes very good yes we are and on that positive note we can bring this very special edition of
27:02the ring to an end thank you so much to tobias kramer and with rebecca for being our guests and
27:07if you
27:08would like to join the conversation you can drop us a line the ring
27:11at your news.com that is our email address but thanks so much for your attention stay with us here
27:16on your own youth
27:20you