- 5 settimane fa
Debito comune per rilanciare la crescita in Europa: gli eurodeputati discutono a The Ring
Nell’episodio di questa settimana di The Ring, gli eurodeputati Markus Ferber e Pasquale Tridico discutono se il debito comune possa rilanciare l’economia stagnante dell’Europa e rafforzarne la competitività indebolita.
ALTRE INFORMAZIONI : http://it.euronews.com/2026/07/16/debito-comune-per-rilanciare-la-crescita-in-europa-gli-eurodeputati-discutono-a-the-ring
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Nell’episodio di questa settimana di The Ring, gli eurodeputati Markus Ferber e Pasquale Tridico discutono se il debito comune possa rilanciare l’economia stagnante dell’Europa e rafforzarne la competitività indebolita.
ALTRE INFORMAZIONI : http://it.euronews.com/2026/07/16/debito-comune-per-rilanciare-la-crescita-in-europa-gli-eurodeputati-discutono-a-the-ring
Abbonati, euronews è disponibile in 12 lingue.
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00:07Hello and welcome to The Ring, Euronews' weekly debating show.
00:13This week, broadcast from the European Parliament here in Brussels.
00:17I'm your host, Marek Gwynne.
00:19Now, every week, two members of the European Parliament step into The Ring
00:23to debate some of the most pressing issues facing the European Union.
00:27This week, we're discussing the economic downturn looming over European nations.
00:33A deep ideological divide is now emerging between countries who want more joint borrowing to fund growth
00:40and frugal states who want fiscal discipline.
00:44Luis Albertos explains.
00:47Is Europe's economy at breaking point?
00:51High borrowing costs, limited fiscal space and weakening competitiveness
00:55are all putting Europe's economic stability at risk.
00:59Countries previously considered economic powerhouses such as France and Germany
01:03are now struggling with sluggish growth due to low productivity and industrial decline.
01:10The diagnosis is clear, but the solution is not.
01:13EU capitals are torn on the way forward.
01:16Last week, Spain proposed expanding the EU's use of common debt
01:20to help finance strategic investments.
01:23Under the proposal, the European Commission would borrow on behalf of EU member states
01:27to fund shared priorities, such as defense, energy, innovation and infrastructure.
01:33Supporters, namely southern European member states,
01:36argue that it would strengthen Europe's competitiveness and lower financing costs.
01:41But several northern member states oppose expanding common debt,
01:44arguing the EU should prioritize stricter spending rules and fiscal discipline.
01:49Can EU countries find common ground?
01:52And what would be the economic cost for Europe if they don't?
01:59That's the topic for our debate today.
02:02Let's now meet our contenders.
02:06Pasquale Tridico, an Italian MEP from the left from Movimento Cinque Stelle.
02:11An economist and former president of Italy's National Institute for Social Security,
02:15he serves in the European Parliament's Committee on Economic and Monetary Affairs
02:19and chairs the Subcommittee on Tax Matters.
02:21A strong advocate of greater public investment at EU level, he says,
02:25Competitiveness does not come from deregulation, but from innovation embedded in investment.
02:31Common debt, not for the rearm, but for our companies and our citizens.
02:36Markus Ferber, a German MEP from the Central Right European People's Party.
02:41A long-serving member of the European Parliament,
02:43he is the vice-chair of the Subcommittee on Tax Matters
02:46and a member of the Committee on Economic and Monetary Affairs.
02:48A consistent advocate of fiscal discipline and competitiveness, he says,
02:53We tried a one-off debt instrument during the pandemic
02:56and are still arguing about who repays it.
02:58Now Spain wants to make that the permanent model.
03:02It is a supremely bad idea.
03:06So let's welcome both of them, Markus Ferber and Pasquale Tridico.
03:11Great to have you with us on The Ring.
03:13Now, the idea here is to have an open debate,
03:16a healthy one, a frank one.
03:18And to give our viewers at home a taste of the debates
03:21that happen here in the European Parliament.
03:24So, let's get started.
03:26Markus Ferber, let me come to you first.
03:28Spain putting now on the table a proposal, a bold one,
03:32850 billion euros more in joint EU borrowing every year to fund growth.
03:38Is this a good idea?
03:40It is a good idea if it comes from the real economy.
03:43And that is what we have firstly to discuss.
03:45How can you organize growth?
03:47And I don't think you can organize growth by putting public money in the economy and wait
03:52for growth.
03:53And therefore, all these attempts to spend money from public budgets and then hoping growth
03:59will come never worked.
04:01At the end, you had high debt and no sustainable growth.
04:03Therefore, it's not the right instrument.
04:05Yes, Europe is competing with global giants, China, the US.
04:10Is it inevitable now that it needs to pull sovereignty and that only as a strong block
04:15it can compete with these giants, Pasquale?
04:17Yes, the point is not to do something extraordinary that countries do not do.
04:22It's to complete what we should do.
04:24In fact, Europe, the Eurozone in particular, is an imperfect union exactly because it does
04:30not use one of the most important tool for economy growth that in the history has been
04:36used, meaning the public debt, in particular, when when times require that in Christ time
04:43during, in fact, the COVID, it was used for a short time for a temporary tool.
04:49And this was the crisis which was better managed than ever in Europe.
04:53Actually, we have introduced the first Shure and then the next generation new, which were
05:00very useful temporary for Europe to grow.
05:02If we don't understand that Europe is lacking one important tool that all countries they have
05:08in Japan, in UK, in USA, they have.
05:12It's not something that is new in the economy.
05:15So, Pasquale is saying that there is a precedent.
05:18So, the safe instrument, the 150 billion euros, also the joint loan for Ukraine recently.
05:23Why not explore these avenues when it comes to the other crisis facing Europe, which is
05:28the competitiveness crisis?
05:30I think we have to separate various things.
05:32Ukraine is Ukraine and should be dealt separately and we should not mix things.
05:36The Shure program are loans for the member states.
05:39Of course, for some member states it's interesting to get loans from the European Union as they
05:43have to pay less public loans, but they have to pay less interest rates.
05:48Sorry, that's the issue because they don't have AAA.
05:51But if you look, for example, the member states I know best, we are not interested in that
05:56as we have AAA by ourselves.
05:57And even the interest rates are lower for Germany than for the European Union.
06:02So, it's an instrument for those who suffer already.
06:05But to make them alive does not mean to give more debts to them.
06:09We should really think how we can strengthen the economies.
06:13Look to Greece, which is performing best because they did reforms.
06:16Look to Italy.
06:17They are performing worse because they never did reforms.
06:20Look to Spain.
06:21They misused the money of next generation EU, not for investments, but for social welfare.
06:27Sorry, if that is the way it is dealt in Europe, it's not a good idea.
06:32So, that's the debate around the Spanish pensions.
06:34And there is a debate now around whether the EU can repay the COVID recovery and resilience
06:40loans, some leaders calling for the repayment to be delayed.
06:44So, if it's so difficult for the EU to repay its current debt, wouldn't it be irresponsible
06:48to borrow more right now?
06:50No, because Europe does not have any debt.
06:53Again, I insist.
06:55We need to complete the union.
06:57It's not something that we are adding.
06:59And this is not only, as it was mentioned by Ferber, a matter of north against south.
07:05It's a matter of union.
07:06It is not what I said, my friend.
07:08I just underline the point.
07:11We are in the Eurozone, in the European Union, and we do have a common tariff.
07:17We do have export and import.
07:19All countries benefit from the fact, for instance, the north, Germany, benefit from the fact that
07:23it can export towards the south.
07:25So, now, an asymmetrical crisis in the south is caused as well because Germany export more
07:32towards the south.
07:33So, if you don't build the safeguard, the union itself can be destroyed.
07:39And Germany cannot even export any longer.
07:41The point is that we do have a monetary union without the tool that usually country, economy,
07:48robust economy, they have to complete the union.
07:51Now, when we introduce it, look at how we manage the financial crisis.
07:56The financial crisis created poverty, unemployment, destruction of firms in Germany as well as
08:03as in Italy, in the north and in the south.
08:04We didn't do the right things.
08:06Only partially at the end of the crisis, in 2012, when Draghi did whatever it takes and
08:14didn't even do monetary policy expansion, just say that it should do, the market was in
08:21a way calm.
08:22Now, we don't have the tool.
08:23And I have to say that the first time, Markus, that this policy, the common debt, was proposed
08:30in Europe was actually by a center-right government, Berlusconi, by Tremonti.
08:36The first ever minister of economy which proposed what Spain today is proposing was 15 years ago
08:41by a center-right economist.
08:44Your reaction to that, Markus Faber, quite a lot.
08:46I think it's not a question of party affiliation.
08:48It's a question how to deal with those we want to borrow the money from.
08:53And the financial crisis started not because something went wrong in the government, because
08:59those who borrow the countries, in this case Greece, said, we do not borrow any cent anymore
09:05to your country because we don't trust that you are able to repay.
09:09And what is the signal we are sending out with next generation EU if we discuss with the
09:13council who promised new own resources for repayment?
09:17Nothing has happened since that.
09:18So the market will not trust us.
09:21And then I wish you all the best and good luck to go to the market asking for money, but
09:26refinancing,
09:27repayment, who cares?
09:29Sorry, the market will ask for high interest rates for that.
09:32And then it's not a qualified instrument.
09:34You have to do some things, a lot of things before.
09:37And then maybe one can sink.
09:40But at the moment, as we are constructed, it makes no sense.
09:44So you disagree with the Spanish economy minister who says that in fact by borrowing a lot of
09:50money, 850 billion, actually the interest rates will be very favorable.
09:54He speaks about 5 billion euros per year in interest.
09:58Yeah, but the idea of the Spanish is that those who want to join in are borrowing money, but
10:04the others have to stand for the debts.
10:06And that is not functioning.
10:08Those who borrow the money have to stay for the debts.
10:11But if it is only those who cannot afford the interest rates anymore, they will not have
10:15lower interest rates.
10:16So I think that is a calculation which fits on the paper, but not on the markets.
10:21Finally, there's clearly a divide here.
10:23We're seeing it very clearly.
10:24Does that mean that the European Union might need to move differently and a group of countries
10:30that do favor this might need to do it alone without the backing of the 27?
10:35Well, you need to consider that we do have a eurozone.
10:38Within the eurozone, this is something that needs to be done.
10:41You can have a different approach outside of the eurozone, but within the eurozone, this
10:47is a common policy.
10:48Again, just because it's missing, not because we want to add something more.
10:51Let me specify one thing.
10:53Everybody probably think that Italy, for instance, is a country which spends more than what it
10:58gets.
10:59Actually, it is the opposite.
11:00As all the economists know, the primary surplus of Italy has been in primary surplus for the
11:06past 25 years.
11:07As German, Italy is a country which has more export than import, has always had a primary
11:15surplus.
11:16It pays a higher cost of debt, which actually is detrimental for the economy, because we
11:22are paying more interest than other, and in a eurozone, this is actually dysfunctional.
11:28It's not needed to say that.
11:30Nobel economists like Mandel in 1992 say that the first thing that Europe need to do is to
11:35create a safe asset.
11:37It works well during the crisis, and then you can cope with the calm market in a better
11:43way.
11:44Okay.
11:45Look what's happening today in German, but that's what in Italy.
11:47With the industrial crisis, with the automotive sector, which is leaving thousands of people
11:53without jobs.
11:54How can we cope with that without a plan like we proposed, the sure plan for automotive,
12:01supporting the supply, supporting the demand, and supporting as well the investment in the
12:08electric transition?
12:09Chinese, with a soft budget constraint, are doing that, and are much more competitive.
12:15And I'm sure we will come back to that and the China issue, but I must stop you there because
12:20that's the end of our first round.
12:22The debate is heating up, I see.
12:24We will continue it, but it is time for us to move on, and in the next round, we take
12:30the gloves off.
12:35In this round, we give you both the opportunity to directly challenge each other.
12:41I know you've come with your own questions.
12:43So now first, Marcus Ferber, your first question to Pasquale Trinico.
12:48Yeah, Pasquale, the Spanish paper says that the European Union budget has to guarantee
12:53the bonds which are issued, which means we have to increase the guarantees the member
12:59states are granting to the European Union.
13:01Do you really think it is appropriate then to spend it for debts in other member states
13:06and not to spend it directly in the budget?
13:08I don't understand this mechanism.
13:11Marcus, you don't understand because you don't see the union as an union.
13:14Probably.
13:15If you see the union staying as part of the union, then a solidarity mechanism in the
13:20Eurozone, not because we want to be good, but because we want an economy which works,
13:26we need to accept a common debt.
13:28It is not a matter only of solidarity.
13:31It's a matter of a well-built framework and economy.
13:35Again, this is not what we are saying for political preferences.
13:39This is what we say after several economists, I quoted before Mandel, and I quoted Stiglitz.
13:47Actually, they say that the Euro is in crisis exactly because it does not have a safe asset,
13:51which works during the Christ time.
13:54And we saw that it works because safe assets like during COVID, sure, next generation,
13:58were exactly done because we miss one structural tool like that, and we introduce temporary.
14:05Now, the proposal is to introduce not temporary, but structural, in order to act when crisis
14:12comes.
14:13Even if you don't have to act, probably the market will be more calm if there is the presence
14:19of a safe asset.
14:20Okay.
14:20And Pasquale Trivico, your first question now to Marcus Feber.
14:24Marcus, we are speaking all the time about resources.
14:27Your question as well was about the resources and how to repay.
14:30Now, we know that most of the firms which are doing well and better in the economy are
14:38the digital firms, firms which are producing, multinational in particular, which are producing
14:43digital services in Europe, and we are not taxing them.
14:47We have proposed a web tax in order to collect some common resources.
14:51Again, to shape our economy, as well during Christ time, and for a matter of equilibrium.
14:59Would you agree with a web tax?
15:01The problem is a little bit more difficult, as we have some member states in the European
15:05Union who have already introduced a so-called digital tax.
15:10If I ask the finance ministers of these member states, they say, yes, we are in favor of a
15:15digital tax, even European harmonized and how to calculate it, but I want the money.
15:20And now, that is not a helpful tool to address the issue we are discussing today, because
15:26if you want to have that tax as a guarantee for common debts, then these member states
15:34who have already introduced digital tax have to transfer the amounts they are receiving
15:40out of that to the European Union.
15:41And that's why in the Council, no one took it up.
15:45So good luck with an idea where there is no support in the Council.
15:48But if I may, for the own resources, there is a debate about gambling sites, for example.
15:53What makes digital corporations different?
15:56Yeah, as I said, we have more than a handful of member states who have already a digital tax
16:00for national budgets, and therefore they are not willing to give it up.
16:05To invent new taxes is always a beloved thing by those who are not able to do reforms, but
16:10honestly, if you want to have sustainable growth, you don't have to have higher taxes, you don't
16:15have to have more taxes, you really need incentives for the member states.
16:19And I'm really surprised that those who overrun the European Union with bureaucratic burdens
16:23in the last 10 years, and sorry, you belong to this part of the parliament, are now complaining
16:28that we don't create growth anymore.
16:30We have to free our economy.
16:33That's more important than to throw money to them.
16:35Okay, we'll come back to that.
16:37I know you had more questions, but that's all we have time for for this second round,
16:42because now it's time to bring in a new voice.
16:49I'd like to now bring in the president of the European Central Bank, Christine Lagarde.
16:54She sat down for an interview with Euronews last week and was asked for her reaction to Spain's
17:00proposal for more joint debt in the EU.
17:04Let's take a listen to what she had to say.
17:06The circumstances have changed and it should lead the leaders of the various member states to consider
17:13and to address what are their concerns.
17:16So I think an ex ante no over my dead body is not the best way to deal with it.
17:22I think the best way to deal with it is to try to analyze what is too much of a
17:27risk and how that risk can be addressed.
17:29So, Marcus Feber, a veiled criticism there of those like you, I believe, who say no outright.
17:36Should we at least debate this more seriously in the EU?
17:40Yeah, but the question is, what is the starting point of the discussion?
17:43Is the starting point of the discussion common debt or is it common policies?
17:48Because I read the Spanish proposal that national obligations should be financed by European debts
17:54and that will not work.
17:56So we have to take it the other way around.
17:58What can we do together as Europeans?
18:02And that's why I really don't want to be accused not being a federalist in the positive sense because I
18:11am.
18:11But firstly we have to define what we can do together
18:15and then we have to speak about the financing and not the other way around.
18:19Let's find finances and finance national obligations.
18:22I want to ask you because Italy is one of the EU countries facing major elections next year,
18:28along with France, Spain, Greece and others.
18:31Do you fear that we could see a shift back to this kind of narrative that economic matters is a
18:38national thing?
18:39It's all about national sovereignty and that could really undermine this push to pull more sovereignty
18:45at the EU level.
18:46Look, while we think that economy is a national matter, we are overwhelmed outside by multinational
18:53which are not national. So sovereignty of national economy is very much constrained by global in
18:59particular by multinational. That's why I said before that if we need to define policy,
19:05tax policy should be defined as well in the digital sector. I'm not saying that resources should be
19:11not be lifted to the member states, should be coordinated at member states, even the harmonization.
19:18We often do a dumping among member states in terms of tax to attract capital from one country to another.
19:26Usually northern countries try to attract capital with fiscal dumping, with tax dumping. That's why we need a policy.
19:33policy in terms of digital services, policy in terms of capital taxes, corporate taxes, harmonization.
19:39This is the way to support the federalist idea of Europe.
19:44Okay. Thank you both. But it's now time for us to take a break here on The Ring,
19:49but we'll be back with more after this. So stay with us.
20:00Welcome back to The Ring, Euronews' weekly debate show. I'm Maret Gwynn and I'm joined this week by
20:07Marcus Ferber from the European People's Party and Pascuale Tridico from the Left Group. Today,
20:13our topic is the state of Europe's economy and the mounting calls on the EU to raise more joint
20:19debt to fund growth. Behind these calls, of course, is the realization that European growth is
20:26stagnating and that Europe is failing to keep up with major global competitors. Let's take a closer
20:33look at the data. And we can see here that in terms of real GDP, that's inflation adjusted gross domestic
20:41product, it's growing at a much higher rate globally than in the EU, but it's also higher in other
20:47advanced economies such as Japan and the US. We also see stagnation in real GDP in the EU in recent
20:54years. And we know, of course, that in the first quarter of 2026, the eurozone economy, in fact,
20:59shrank by 0.2 percent. Now, this is concerning for Europeans. And part of the problem is this question
21:07of global competitiveness. We know that China, some would say, is increasingly predatory in its
21:14tactics when it comes to trade. Is the EU doing enough to get tougher on China?
21:19No, we are not doing enough because we are not using the only asset we have, which is the single
21:24market. And if you look to the figures calculated by the International Monetary Fund, which says that
21:30even in the trade of goods, we hurt ourselves like tariffs of 45 percent, which is three times what the
21:37US is doing with us. That shows there's a high potential in the single market. And we really
21:42should use these possibilities to strengthen our home market, to be less dependent from exports to
21:49other regions in the world. And the other thing means as well to protect ourselves, especially against
21:54China, who is subsidizing its overproduction. And that is not an entrance key for European Union
22:00markets. And we should protect ourselves.
22:02We know all of these arguments. We hear them all the time here in Brussels these days. The commission
22:06now saying that by October there will be a trade deal or it does get tougher. Do you believe that
22:11that
22:11will happen?
22:12Well, I hope so, because I hope that Europe will be more competitive. However, I have to say competitiveness
22:18does not come out of the blue. Competitiveness, of course, comes from investment, from capital,
22:23from market. But there is a big role here that can be played, in particular during the
22:27in face of country, which uses several weapons, meaning political weapons, economic weapons,
22:34such as soft budget, one of the most important tool which we are missing is the public investment
22:40here. In particular during transition as the one that we are leaving. We are leaving an ecological
22:45transition, environmental transition. We are doing nothing to be more competitive, exactly in the same field
22:51of China, which is the electric transition. Our automotive sector, for instance, is losing steps,
22:57is losing competitiveness, exactly because we miss a big player. Look at the case of Boeing,
23:03the Air 1, sorry, to compete against the Boeing in the United States. We had a consortium,
23:10one single player, like the Airbus, which was more competitive. And here we had an industrial policy,
23:16a European industrial policy in that sector, in the Airbus sector. We can have an industrial policy
23:23with a plan of at least 500 billion euros, which support the transition freeway. First, supporting demand.
23:31We know that electric cars are higher than the ELS, so we can, for instance, introduce a cut in the
23:38VAT
23:39for consumption of electric cars. Second, supply. Investors are basically afraid, don't know what
23:46they do, there is uncertainty. We need to say that the electric transition is a must, but we need to
23:51support
23:52that, meaning that we need to have credits for tax credits for firms investing huge tax credits,
23:59like the United States did, investing in electric cars. And third, and last, is to support as well employers,
24:09meaning workers, sorry. Workers are suffering during this transition because they are getting in
24:14in furlough scheme, in suspension of work, in unemployment. There is a need there to support
24:22income because without income there is no demand. Some interesting ideas there. Industrial decline
24:27is clearly a big concern in Germany. Do you agree with some of those ideas? I think our main objectives,
24:33our main problems are high energy prices. The energy market, a real integrated, full integrated
24:38energy market could help a lot. Number two is aging society. That is a huge challenge for us. So we
24:46have
24:46really to invest more in education in our own people. That is very important. And number three is,
24:54as I said, strengthening the single market. That are the key objectives to achieve, not finance here,
25:00finance here, finance here. That is not addressing any problem. Okay. So a few areas of common ground,
25:07perhaps, but also a lot of disagreement here, I see. But let me stop you there, because now it's time
25:13for us to move on to our fifth and final round. In our last round, we do something a little
25:22different.
25:23I'm going to ask you a series of questions and I'm going to ask you to respond with one answer,
25:29either yes
25:30or no. Are you ready? So first question to you, Pasquale Tridico. Should the EU embrace joint debt?
25:38Yes, sure. No.
25:41Marcus, should the EU at least debate Spain's proposal for more joint debt?
25:45No. Yes, sure.
25:47Should Germany and other frugal states accept higher debt if it boosts European competitiveness?
25:54It will not boost, so no. Yes, sure. Should highly indebted countries with high rates of debt and
26:02deficit cut spending before they ask for more support from the EU? No. Of course.
26:08Should Europe prioritize competitiveness over balanced budgets? No, both goes hand in hand.
26:14Okay. But they go together. Oh, we agree.
26:17And finally, I'd like to ask you both, is there anything you've heard from your opponents today
26:23that has maybe made you change your mind or change your perspective on this debate?
26:29Well, we have spoken about a very specific issue on which actually there is a clear division.
26:36question. I understand the logic of Marcus, but this does not work in a union like us,
26:46which is actually imperfect. Okay. So we are not adding a tool. We are completing the union.
26:51And what about you, Marcus Feber? Anything that Pasquale Tridico has said has maybe changed your mind?
26:57No, because he is speaking about the last step and forget all those steps before. And I spoke
27:02about the first steps to be done. And then we are on the right track. Okay. So we haven't cracked
27:07the problem of the division over the EU's common debt on The Ring this week, but we've certainly had
27:12a good debate on it. Thank you both. And that brings us to the end of this edition of The
27:19Ring.
27:19Thank you again, Pasquale Tridico and Marcus Feber. Thank you also to you at home for watching. And
27:26remember, you can continue the debate by sending us your thoughts, feedback and comments. Our email
27:32address is thering at euronews.com. And we'll be back soon with more from The Ring. In the meantime,
27:39take care and stay with us here on Euronews.
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