- 7 ore fa
Più soldi alle forze armate: per farne cosa? Eurodeputati divisi sulla difesa europea a The Ring
L’aumento delle spese per la difesa in Europa è un investimento strategico o solo un modo per compiacere Donald Trump? È il tema di questa settimana a The Ring, con gli eurodeputati Marc Botenga e Lukas Mandl su fronti opposti.
ALTRE INFORMAZIONI : http://it.euronews.com/2026/05/22/piu-soldi-alle-forze-armate-per-farne-cosa-eurodeputati-divisi-sulla-difesa-europea-a-the-
Abbonati, euronews è disponibile in 12 lingue.
L’aumento delle spese per la difesa in Europa è un investimento strategico o solo un modo per compiacere Donald Trump? È il tema di questa settimana a The Ring, con gli eurodeputati Marc Botenga e Lukas Mandl su fronti opposti.
ALTRE INFORMAZIONI : http://it.euronews.com/2026/05/22/piu-soldi-alle-forze-armate-per-farne-cosa-eurodeputati-divisi-sulla-difesa-europea-a-the-
Abbonati, euronews è disponibile in 12 lingue.
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00:08Hello and welcome to The Ring, Euronews' weekly debate show broadcasting from the European
00:14Parliament in Strasbourg. Today I'm Stefan Grobe. On The Ring, members of the European
00:19Parliament go face-to-face on some of the biggest issues facing Europe. Today we're
00:25going to talk about European defence efforts in a fast-changing geopolitical environment.
00:30Luis Alberto has more. Wars in Ukraine and Iran, economic insecurity
00:37and questions about the future of NATO. Europe finds itself at a moment of profound uncertainty.
00:45That sense of vulnerability has triggered a historic shift in European defence policy.
00:49Countries that for decades reduced military budgets are now dramatically increasing defence spending.
00:56Europe is also trying to redefine its alliance and many European leaders argue that Europe
01:01must become more strategically autonomous. At the same time, Europe fears being sidelined
01:06if the world increasingly becomes shaped by deals between the United States, China and Russia.
01:12Can Europe successfully navigate this turbulent period? Can it emerge as truly independent global power?
01:21A lot to unpack here for our contenders. And here they are.
01:27Lukas Mandl, an Austrian MEP from the Central-Right European People's Party. He's a member of the
01:33Committees on Development, Legal Affairs and Civil Liberties, Justice and Home Affairs at the European
01:38Parliament. Regarding the EU's priorities at a time of growing global uncertainty and geopolitical turmoil,
01:43he said, it's the economy, stupid. Let's put first things first.
01:49Mark Potenga, a Belgian MEP from the Left Group. He's a member of the Committees on Foreign Affairs
01:54and Security and Defence at the European Parliament. He has criticised the EU's position on the global
01:59stage, arguing that the double standards of this Europe are not only a disgrace, they also allow the
02:04creation of a world of chaos and war. So be ashamed, because today this Europe is not a force for
02:10good,
02:10but an accomplice to crime.
02:15So let me welcome to the ring Lukas Mandl and Mark Potenga. Good to see you. Great to have you
02:21here.
02:22The aim of the ring is to offer our viewers a glimpse at European Parliament debates, so you should feel
02:29right at home. Are you ready?
02:31All right, you're ready. Thanks for having me.
02:33Good. I want to start with something provocative, Mark Potenga. Will more money, more defence money,
02:40actually make Europe safer, or are governments confusing spending with strategy?
02:46Oh, I think definitely we don't have a strategy right now. So I think that's very impressive. Like,
02:50we put in a lot of money, right, hundreds and hundreds of billions going to the defence sector,
02:55very often with little conditions, first of all. So we also see that at the same time you have these
02:59multinational companies that are now sending a lot more money to their shareholders. But I'm like,
03:04are we just sponsoring basically not just their profits, but even their dividends, their share
03:09buybacks? So that is one question. But secondly, what are our priorities? We see that people are
03:13buying, you know, armoured vehicles to be used in the west of Africa. We're seeing the F-35 fighter jets
03:20being bought by member states. And I'm like, what is this for? This is not for our defence. This is,
03:26if we, with all of the money and all the material we have, you know, which is much more than
03:30what
03:30Russia has, you know, we have many times more tanks, many times more fighter jets, many times
03:35more battleships than Russia has. We see Russia struggling, you know, they were unable to even
03:40organise the parade in Moscow. Why are we not able to defend ourselves with the money we're already
03:45spending? Yeah. Let me take that question right to Lukas Mandel. Defence strategy or not?
03:50Oh, it's like everybody needs an insurance. If you're driving a car or doing whatever,
03:55you need insurance and spending money for defence is an insurance for our security in the first
04:01place. And secondly, it's also for the very cause of Europe's prosperity, because the more we can
04:06innovate and produce on European soil, the better for jobs, for growth and for Europe's economic future.
04:14On this point, connecting Europe stronger. I mean, it's not like Europe doesn't have
04:19armies, it doesn't have had armies or defence spending before. Isn't the problem really
04:25inefficiency and fragmentation in Europe when we talk about military? Well, I remember the European
04:30Commission, the previous one, the one of Jean-Claude Juncker, you know, saying if we work together
04:35better at European level, we can save 100 billion, up to 100 billion euros on defence spending.
04:42I'm like, that's that's marvellous. Let's do that. Right. And now you see, no, we work together better,
04:47but we also need to spend hundreds of billions more while we're already outspending vast amount
04:53of countries in the world. Most countries in the world spend a lot less than European countries do.
04:57We need to really, really be aware of that. So there is no underfunding. Oh, there's absolutely no
05:03underfunding. There might be a very bad use of some of the funds. This is something else. We've seen it
05:07at European level as well. You know, until very recently, drones were not a priority, not top
05:12priority of the European defence spending. Then suddenly became everything. You know, drones were
05:17everything we needed, the Alpha, the Omega. And now again, yeah, maybe it's not drones that are the
05:22main priority. So this is what I was saying. There's no real strategy, but there is an idea of saying
05:26Europe, you know, should be a main player globally. This is not about defence. This is about Europe being
05:33being able to project power in the rest of the world, you know, in Africa, in the Middle East,
05:38not defence, attack. Do you agree? We have big underfunding. We have had it for many decades in
05:45Europe. We have to invest in drones. I really want to address these conspiracy theories that are there
05:51as if it would not be for our defence, but for a different cause. It's for our defence. Europe is
05:56the
05:56very entity on this planet that's planning military matters in the very field of defence,
06:03not in the field of attack. And drones are obviously what's really needed in today's warfare.
06:08And if we are well equipped in the field of drones, if we have innovation also in the drones field,
06:13and also production on European soil for jobs and prosperity, then we have a smaller probability
06:19that we will be attacked because we will be more secure if we are able to defend ourselves. And this
06:25is the whole philosophy of defence. So our security is at stake. And I think conspiracy theories are
06:31rather harming our European unity and our European defence capability.
06:36First of all, I don't think the massive increase is justified. Let's say this first. Secondly,
06:41I think it actually will weaken Europe on the long term as well, because contrary to what you're saying,
06:46it is not a good idea for our industry. You know, we have you speak about jobs. Basically,
06:50the defence industry yields less jobs for money invested than other sectors do. You will not save
06:56the steel industry of militarisation, you know, producing 1000 tanks. It's about three days of
07:01production of a steel factory. So you can see that you're actually weakening. Also, there's a negative
07:06multiplier effect that might be applied to other industries. So you're weakening structurally the
07:12industrial base of Europe by saying we put more defence, but we will lose other sectors. Look at the
07:16of the automobile sector. And secondly, indeed, what is the threat that justifies, you know, this massive
07:22why, for example, if I hear the German Chancellor, right, saying I want to have the biggest army in
07:28Europe. Why do you want the biggest army in Europe? Is that your threat assessment that the problem is
07:33you don't have the biggest army in Europe? We need to be very clear. There are threats, you know,
07:37and one of the threats is the arms race. One of the threats is nuclear war. Let's be very clear.
07:41This is very clear. How do you deal with that? During the Cold War, we knew disarmament,
07:49transparency, limitations on arms control systems, all of these things we knew during the Cold War
07:54with the Soviet Union that was vastly more powerful and vastly more ideological than Putin or Putin's
08:00Russia will ever be. Okay. Do you hear this? In the Cold War, freedom won against dictatorship.
08:05And this was, of course, due to deterrence. And deterrence is what is needed. Deterrence will
08:11also save us. And deterrence is only possible if we can take care of ourselves. And the security
08:17sector and industries is not isolated from other sectors. We have to understand Europe. And I really
08:22care for Europe's prosperity, for jobs on our continent and for the future of the generations ahead.
08:28Europe became a continent of consumption. We have been consuming over decades innovation from America,
08:34production from China and other parts of Asia, also innovation from China in the meantime. So we
08:40need innovation on European soil. We also need production on European soil. And when you talk about
08:45the automotive sector, there are not many sectors as much connected to the security sector as this one.
08:50So security and economy has to be taken serious. That's why I'm also saying let's put first things
08:58first. This must be the priority. But I guess the threat assessment is different in the Baltics and in
09:05Portugal, right? So I'm coming back to Putin here. Shall we take him seriously? Shall we fear him?
09:10Is this whole build up a response to Russian assertiveness and aggression?
09:16I think we invoke the Russian aggression in Ukraine to justify programs that existed before. Let's not
09:22forget that, for example, the European Defense Fund was started before the current war in Ukraine.
09:27So there is, of course, you know, I mean, the defense fund was so important for
09:31Europe to be started ahead of the Russian attack. But the quantity is so important. The connection is
09:37so important. Let me get back. First of all, with these
09:43things, we're putting a lot of money, extra money, you know, by saying Russia is going. There's this
09:47very there's a contradiction in European mainstream discourse, which is saying at the same time that
09:52Russia is extremely weak, is losing in Ukraine, and we might be able to free Ukraine from Russian
09:57occupation militarily. And then you have these images of the Red Square in Moscow where there's no
10:03parade. And on the other hand, the fact that Putin would be able to conquer the whole of Europe.
10:08You know, these are our two things that are obviously incompatible right now at the same moment.
10:12But we don't want to find out. What we don't want to find out is right now what, for example,
10:16a desperate Russia would do, right? Could it be more desperate than it already is?
10:21Sorry? I mean, do you see any reliability or predictability in Putin's regime? There is already
10:28total desperation. So we have to be able to defend ourselves. I agree with the commission's president,
10:33who has stated we have to keep our hand reached out to the other Russia. I'm absolutely aware of
10:40that, that after Putin's regime, we have to give Russia the chance to become a democratic rule of
10:46law. We need to have diplomacy right now. We need to do diplomacy right now. And this is the disaster,
10:51the disaster of this European Union. We have forgotten what diplomacy is. Talk to other people. And
10:57diplomacy doesn't mean going, having a drink with a friend. Diplomacy is talking to the opponent,
11:04to the adversary, to the enemy. This is to deescalate and to limit conflict. And most countries
11:09in the world have tried this and the European Union has refused. Now I see Angela Merkel, you know,
11:14who got the order of merits. I see Alexander Stubbs saying we need to do that. Right. A lot of
11:18names
11:18floating around. We come back to this later, but I want to stop you here as we're just getting warmed
11:24up,
11:24as you can see. Now it's time for our viewers to get a real flavor of the European Parliament
11:33Chamber, where members ask each other questions. And sometimes it can get heated. So let's get
11:39started. Lukas Madl, I'm going to ask you to ask the first question to Mark. Well, Mark Potenga, as a
11:47colleague in the European Parliament, how can we make sure that we establish more freedom for the
11:52Europeans to the inside and more strength to the outside? This is the overall issue of our time.
11:57I would say Europe needs more strength for its civilization, for its reliability, the diplomatic
12:02approach that you obviously do not see from the European side, while Europe is the strongest
12:08diplomatic power given the geopolitical situation today. So how can we create more strength to the
12:13outside and how can we establish more freedom to the inside for our citizens? I think that's a very
12:17interesting question coming from the center right who's governing in many governments in Europe
12:22and who's basically limiting the right to protest, who's limiting the right to strike, who's limiting
12:28basically fundamental freedoms of Europeans. And so I would say first thing, please tell the governments
12:35of your political group, of your political party to stop limiting the fundamental freedoms of Europeans.
12:41And secondly, towards the outside, I need, we need, I think, to rebuild European credibility.
12:48And how do we do that? We do that by stopping the double standards, by no longer saying international
12:54law is important for us in Ukraine, but in Palestine we don't care. International law is important when
13:00Russia or Putin violates it, but we don't care when Trump violates international law. Because if you have
13:05these double standards, never ever will other countries take you seriously and never ever will
13:11you be a decent player on the international scale. Okay. On this, I think you want to follow up.
13:17I mean, there is so much to be said. I think it was now the fourth or fifth conspiracy theory
13:23from
13:23Mr. Potenga in today's talk about freedom being limited in Europe. There is no part on this planet,
13:29no continent, no country where freedom is so much established and so much defended and strong
13:33as it is in Europe. Obviously, also that we have this debate today, also that extremists have
13:40all democratic rights in parliaments in Europe, including the very European Parliament. All of
13:46this is about freedom. And then mixing things up doesn't make it better. Of course, when international
13:52law is violated, Europe is the strongest voice speaking about that. Europe stood strong against
13:57Trump's attempt, for example, when it comes to Greenland, and we succeeded in that area. Europe stood
14:03strong when it was not clear whether the terrorists will go that way or the other way from Trump's
14:08side. He put us in a limbo again. But we didn't follow this pathway of a limbo. We didn't enter
14:13this
14:14political battlefield of Trump. We stood strong. And we managed to succeed more when it comes to the
14:21geopolitical tensions given than other parts of the world. But of course, we need more strength to the
14:26outside, especially in the field you are doubting in the in the field of our own security and being
14:32able to take care of it. Mark, you want to react? And then your question to Lucas Mandel. Well,
14:37I think it's interesting because very often the EPP and central parties, when they don't have an answer,
14:41they say this is a conspiracy theory. What we see many countries like in Germany now, there's a debate
14:46even on saying we can't use the watermelon anymore as a political symbol because it would be anti-Semitic.
14:50This is, you know, what we are seeing. We're seeing this also with action against trade unions in different
14:56countries. So we see that there's a democratic backsliding, which human rights organizations are pointing
15:00out in Europe. You know, it's not some kind of left conspiracy to say that. But you don't want to
15:05see it
15:05because it's your government's doing it. Secondly, what I indeed want to ask now, and I think that that's a
15:12thing. You say that Europe stands up for international law and you quote Greenland.
15:19Europe didn't stand up for international law in Greenland. It stood up for its own territorial
15:24integrity. That is something very different because when we had to stand up for international law,
15:30the illegal war on Iran, you supported it yourself. When it is about denouncing the illegal occupation of
15:36Lebanon by Israel, you support it. When the International Court of Justice says that we should sanction
15:42Israel as third parties. We have a responsibility. You refuse it. So basically, when, you know,
15:47the Venezuelan president, whatever we think of him, is kidnapped illegally and the world globally
15:52condemns this, saying this is just absolutely not how we deal with, how would I say, with international
15:58relations and this is a violation of the UN charter, you support it. So this is the issue. These double
16:03standards, it's not Europe that has double standards. You know, it is you. It is the governing
16:08coalition of Europe that has these double standards. Look, who is dealing with international law,
16:13who is in the lead of preserving it and observing it is the United Nations. We had yesterday night in
16:19the European Parliament's plenary debate on the United Nations necessary reform. United Nations have
16:25to be reformed for obvious reasons. And if you are telling now that the war on the Iranian regime
16:33was wrong, I say, yeah, it was amateurishly done by the United States while the decapitation of the
16:41Mueller regime's leaders worked very well. But the war obviously was wrong because it didn't work out
16:47well. The Mueller regime is still in place. I've been sanctioned myself by the Mueller regime since 2023.
16:52So I know what I'm talking about when I say women are suppressed in Iran. Iran is threatening the whole
16:59world, not only the region. And of course, to threaten our only partner country in the region,
17:05the only democracy, the only rule of law based state in the region, Israel, is part of the
17:10conspiracy theories of your political side. And this is a sign of freedom in Europe that you can
17:14speak freely about that, even if it's a very much in minority being opinion. But you're allowed to say
17:24that there's there are no many parts on Earth where you can do that. And last point on Greenland.
17:28I mean, when international law is violated, it doesn't matter whether it's Europe's interest
17:31or the arts interest. We care for international law. We even want to save international law during
17:36these geopolitical times of tensions. And that means that we have to reform the United Nations.
17:42OK, thank you for a great debate so far. We've heard your views. Now it's time to hear from a
17:49new voice.
17:54And for our quote of the week, I would like to bring in Italian Prime Minister Giorgia Meloni.
17:59In a letter addressed to Commission President Ursula von der Leyen, she said this.
18:04We cannot justify to our citizens that the EU allows financial flexibility to be used for security
18:11and defense purposes in the strictest sense, but not to protect families, workers and enterprises from a
18:18to a new energy crisis that threatens to severely impact the real economy.
18:25Your take on this, Mark?
18:27Well, two things. First, she's walked back to her statement. Secondly, it's terribly hypocritical because
18:33the fact that we now have again these horrible austerity rules was approved by her government.
18:38So first, this is fantastic. First, the far right approves this or the center right,
18:43whatever you want to call her, approves these rules. And then they say, ah, it's not fair.
18:47So this is, you know, pure populism. But what is true is that Europe today says there's no money
18:54for your hospitals, for your pensions, for your schools. But miraculously, we find hundreds of
19:00billions for the defense multinationals. You know, this contradiction is real. And so indeed,
19:05we do not need these austerity rules anymore. And once again, they've been imposed by the mainstream
19:10parties, including Georgia Maloney's. Okay. Lucas Mandel, your reaction?
19:14Yeah, this is part of the extremist populist approach. I think also the consumers,
19:18viewers of this program should see that there is no contradiction between producing something on
19:22European soil instead from buying it from outside and having hospitals and schools and streets,
19:30because the one thing is connected with the other. If we have strong prosperity,
19:33if we have growth finally in Europe, again, we will also be able to afford the social welfare
19:38states. We have established generations before us have established in Europe,
19:41and we will have schools and roads. All right. We're going to continue the conversation,
19:45but now I'll have to take a break here on The Ring. We'll be back with more after this. Stay
19:51with us.
19:59Welcome back to The Ring, Euronews' weekly debate show. I'm Stefan Gorbe, and I'm joined by Lucas Mandel
20:06from the European People's Party from Austria and Marc Botenga from the left group from Belgium. At this
20:12point, let's take a look at the transatlantic partnership regarding defense. Trump wants to
20:18weaken the NATO alliance and seems increasingly noncommittal to common defense. But the military
20:23business is showing a different picture. So here are some numbers from the Stockholm International
20:28Peace Research Institute. According to that institute, 64 percent of European NATO weapons
20:35imports come from the United States. And European arms imports rose by more than 150 percent between
20:432020 and 24 compared to the previous period. U.S. arms exports to Europe increased by more than 200 percent
20:51in the same period. So Europe is now the world's largest arms important region. Lucas Mandel,
21:00hearing these numbers, your comments. I mean, we had the time of many good beginnings since the
21:05beginning of Putin-Russia's war. But spending is not everything. I've emphasized that before.
21:10It's about where to spend. It's about the connection between the armed forces of the member states and
21:16also the understanding of the various different threats. Now we see the situation that the United
21:21States are obviously willing to reduce their number of troops on European soil. I think that's
21:29not only a development due to the given current U.S. administration under Trump. It was generally
21:35something that had to be expected over decades. And a mature Europe will anyway be able to take care
21:41of itself. But I do not want to have confrontation with other parts of the world. I want cooperation,
21:45but on the basis of European strength. Okay. How can we be strategically independent
21:51by buying American weapons? Oh, we cannot. Let's be very clear. If you buy, for example,
21:55I mentioned the F-35 fighters as before. Making a little bit of a cartoon out of it, you could
22:01say that with one
22:01push of the button, Trump can deactivate them. So if it were to, I don't know, defend Greenland,
22:07they would be completely useless. We do need to think how you create this autonomy. This you can
22:13do in different ways. One of the ways I would suggest is to say we need to diversify partnerships.
22:18So this idea of we need to, we are locking ourselves up in this kind of submissive attitude towards
22:25Trump. We've seen it as well with the trade deal at the EU-US trade deal, where we accept to
22:30give
22:31tariff-free access to the European market for many, many goods from the US. But ourselves, you know,
22:36we see that we impose... What do you mean by diversifying? Is it buying from Brazil or India?
22:40Yeah, for example. I mean, you have your own industry, obviously, you know, you produce what
22:44you want to produce. In the first place, we have to produce ourselves. But secondly, no, no,
22:47we, but we produce ourselves. That's not, I mean, because you said, you said, you said before that
22:52we do not produce anymore. First of all, this deindustrialization, which is true and which is
22:58real, is not a gift from God. This is a consequence of policies that have been waged on this continent
23:05by your group. So let's not pretend this comes from nowhere. Workers throughout Europe have seen their
23:11jobs disappear in industry because of the policies, the market-driven policies your group has imposed on this
23:17continent. So yes, we need to... I agree with the point that Europe has its own responsibility here,
23:21but it clearly came from ideological left sources that we had this policies. But you were the one
23:26governing it. This was a market approach. How can you say the left is responsible? But this makes
23:32no sense. We have better majorities in the European Parliament since the last election. I'm ready to have a
23:36debate of ideas. I'm ready to have a debate of ideas, but you cannot say that it has been the
23:41left
23:41pushing for liberalization, that it has been the left pushing for privatization, for the sellout of
23:49our industries. This is just not true. This is center right. But this makes no sense.
23:55Let's have an honest debate on ideas. Let's have an honest debate on ideas. It's been the center right,
24:03sometimes with social democrats in the coalition, that has sold off our industries and that has
24:08privatized, liberalized our markets. And this would create, I don't know what kind of Eldorado.
24:13The reality today is what? Deindustrialization and a lot of issues for European industry.
24:19We need more freedom. We need more freedom. We still need more liberalization.
24:22You have refused to invest sufficiently in public energy infrastructure. And today,
24:26our industries are being chased away by the fact that the energy prices are too high. And still today,
24:30you're sabotaging the cheapest energy that would be green energy, keeping us dependent on fossil fuels
24:36from I don't know what countries. All right. We'll come back to this. And now it's the time to move
24:41on to our fifth and final round.
24:47And we want to do something different now. I'm going to ask you a set of questions,
24:51and you can only answer with a yes or no. Okay. Lucas, I'll start with you. Should there be a
24:57common
24:57European army on the long run? Yes. No, not now. No. Okay. Can Europe realistically build credible
25:06military autonomy without duplicating NATO structures? It's a long debate. I just want to say,
25:13yes. If that's the question, yes, we can. I think we should work on a common security architecture
25:18in Europe. Okay. No, we can't. We have to do it within NATO. We have to reform NATO, such as
25:25UN also.
25:26And of course, it will be within NATO because to have redundancies is the worst thing we can do
25:32with taxpayers' money and also with our security. Okay. Will NATO outlive Donald Trump?
25:38Absolutely. I hope not. You hope not? Yes. I mean, I think NATO today, you know,
25:44NATO is something that comes from the Cold War. I had a sense at the time, the warshow pact against
25:50NATO. Today, we need a common European security architecture. NATO is something from the past,
25:55and Donald Trump is the living illustration of this. Interesting. And finally, was there anything
26:01over the last half hour that you think your opponent said that you can agree with?
26:09I can't say that. Only maybe that European economic trouble is also based on our own European
26:16responsibility from the past. But I wouldn't direct that to the very center of politics. It was the
26:23extremists who were stronger over decades. Now we have better maturities in the European Parliament.
26:27Now we lift burden from our businesses. So maybe we agree on that. And I'm very happy to be European,
26:34seeing that somebody from the far extremists, in that case to the left, there are also ones to the right,
26:39that are allowed to speak freely. And there are not many parts of the world where this is possible.
26:44Any agreements with Lukas Wallen? Well, definitely not with this part. I mean,
26:47the far right has never been stronger in this parliament than you say that normal parties are
26:51stronger. That's very weird. One point I think I agree on is the fact that the issue with,
26:57let's say, defense and security is not a matter of more money. It's a matter of more cooperation,
27:03you know. And this, I think he said, but this kind of contradicts the position of saying we need
27:08more money for defense. But I agree on this part. We need more cooperation and more coordination.
27:13Wonderful. And that final answer brings us to the end of this edition of The Ring. Thanks again to
27:19Marc Buttenga and Lukas Mandl for a lively conversation here from the European Parliament. Thanks to our
27:24audience at home. If you like, you can continue the conversation by sending us your comments to
27:31theringateuronews.com. We'd love to have your feedback. That's it for today. I'm Stefan Grobe.
27:37Take care and see you soon on Euronews.
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