00:17As the Taliban completed five years of its rule over Afghanistan on August 15,
00:23the country faces devastating crises on multiple fronts. The United Nations and
00:29the human rights groups are describing what they call the world's worst women's rights crisis,
00:36one of the worst human rights crises and one of the world's worst humanitarian crises. Some 22
00:44million Afghans or 45 percent of its total population require humanitarian assistance
00:50and nearly 12 million children of whom 3.5 million under the age of five are suffering from acute
00:58malnutrition. MCR spoke to Mahbubha Siraj, the well-known Afghan women and children's rights
01:06advocate to understand the situation firsthand. She spoke from Kabul. Welcome to Mayank Shaya reports.
01:16Miss Siraj, it's always a great pleasure to have you. Thank you, Mr. Shaya. It's an absolute pleasure
01:22for me, too. It's been quite a while since you and I talked. Indeed. You know, speaking of that,
01:29we spoke just, I think, about a month before the Taliban rolled into Kabul five years ago. And
01:36here we are, five years hence. So I want to start with something that I read on the Human Rights
01:43Watch
01:44site. There is an Afghan researcher called Farishta Abasi. And I'm quoting Abasi when I say this.
01:53This is the exact quote. Five years after the Taliban takeover, Afghanistan is experiencing the world's
02:00worst women's rights crisis. One of the worst human rights crises and one of the worst humanitarian crises.
02:09You are in Kabul. You are right in the heart of this very issue. Give me your perspective of what
02:16you
02:16think is going on in the last five years. Well, I mean, to tell you the honest truth, actually from
02:23the
02:23beginning and when everything started in 2021, I was also amongst the people that was, you know, really,
02:31how should I say, hopeful. Hopeful because, not because of the Taliban one or two or two or two or
02:37whatever the world is calling it. But because of the way, because of the previous experience and
02:44because of the way Afghanistan was going and because of everything, the way it happened and all of that
02:49and hoping that throughout this time, there was a certain amount of learning that took place by the
02:55Taliban as well. I was hoping that, you know, the situation will not become the way it did finally,
03:02especially for the women. That part of the game, I honestly, after their meeting in Doha and after
03:08all of the promises they made to the world, the Taliban, I thought we are going to be over that
03:14and things are not going to get this bad. And I am not amongst the people that believes,
03:20you know, everything of ours has to be like the West and we are westernized and all of that. No,
03:25that's an absolute baloney. I don't need that. We don't need that, the women of Afghanistan. We are
03:30Muslims. We want to keep our way, our culture, our religion, everything. It's perfectly fine.
03:37You know, covering our faces really has not killed us all of these years and has not going to kill
03:42us
03:42from here on either. But the only thing is that in all of this, we really need to have our
03:49education.
03:50We need to have our freedom to move around. We need to have our freedom to choose when we want
03:57to get married and who we want to marry. And we need to have our freedom for a lot of
04:02other things,
04:03like going to a park, sitting under the shade of a beautiful tree in the summertime with our family,
04:08going, you know, to the doctor alone, the way we need to, or going with our sister of ours,
04:13or our daughter or whoever. But all of this and the movement, you know, being free and being able to,
04:22and also working. Because don't forget, Mr. Chaya, in Afghanistan, it's not a country that all the
04:28women have a husband and all of those husbands, you know, they have a work and they have a job
04:32and they
04:33can bring money. That's not the case. Afghanistan has been in war for so long that there's a
04:39lot of them that have been killed. So these women are all widows. So the widows should have a right
04:45to look after their children and bring children that are Afghans and good for this society
04:53and healthy and well-fed, not 3 million children dying from malnutrition. This is not right. This
05:02is not right. That means there is something very fundamentally in Basic Rock. So that is what I'm
05:09saying. I've always said that. And in the beginning, it wasn't like that. We were not going through all of
05:15this. And then slowly and slowly and slowly, as the time went, things started to get started to get
05:22from bad to worst. And finally, today, the women of Afghanistan is true. They are in one of their
05:29worst, worst situations in the war. You know, you mentioned, and we spoke about it five years ago,
05:37you were trying to be optimistic. You wanted to do an outreach to see if something can be done to
05:44moderate the Taliban influence. Over the last five years, why do you think your efforts didn't
05:51lead anywhere? Not just that, but it became worse, as you just pointed out.
05:56Yeah, it just got worse. It really did. For the life of me, I don't know. Although I do know,
06:02because there is a certain amount of differences within the Taliban. A group thinks one way,
06:09another group thinks another way. And this by itself has created a lot of risk
06:14inside the Taliban, which is not outside. The world cannot see it really. But it is going on. And
06:20that is affecting their decision, is affecting the way they are looking at things, is affecting the way
06:25they are looking at the future of Afghanistan, the way they are looking at the women of Afghanistan,
06:30and the possibilities. So this is what's actually happening. And because of that, we are paying,
06:36actually, really. But in your interaction, in your interactions with the men of Taliban,
06:43as it were, do you sense any kind of understanding that keeping half of the country's population
06:53languishing on the margins is not good for the country? Do they even recognize that fact?
06:58Absolutely. I have no idea what happened. I don't know whose influence this is, honestly.
07:05Because the way I look at it, and I've talked about it, and I've talked about it before also,
07:10now I am doing it, but even before I've talked about it. This must be somebody that is such an
07:15enemy of the people of Afghanistan for making decisions like this. You don't make decisions
07:19like this to a people that you have respect, and you love them, and you care for them, and you
07:24want
07:24to see them with a future that is clear, and is prosperous, and is good for them. These are the
07:32things that enemies of people make these decisions. And I'm absolutely, how should I say, I'm completely
07:44flabbergasted, as the Americans say it, because I don't know, I really don't know
07:50why. How is it like this? Why is it like this? Why it shouldn't be like this? I don't know.
07:55But it is.
07:57That's the saddest part is that it is. A lot of the people right now, they're considering me like,
08:02you know, there's a lot of, after my announcement was, I mean, my announcement was announced,
08:07and everybody really found out about it. And there's a lot of nasty remarks and comments that are
08:13happening from everywhere about me. And of course, they are doing this without really knowing what
08:19who am I, what I was saying, what I am saying. I have never, you know, when they were talking
08:25about
08:25apartheid, what I said, I remember, I said, Afghanistan is going through something that's a lot worse than
08:32apartheid, if there is such a thing. And I do remember saying that. But they are saying that,
08:37you know, I'm completely, I am, I'm not, I am, what is going through is really a lot worse than
08:44apartheid. And at the same time, where apartheid was actually implemented in South Africa, it wasn't
08:52really, it never happened the way it was supposed to, it started it, but it didn't, it didn't work
08:57all the way through. It just turned out to be something entirely different. The world really
09:01doesn't know. And my fear is that whatever happens, you know, you know, using a name in
09:09making it something that the world right now finds it very ha ha ha, is going to kill the rest
09:15of my
09:15people. It's going to be very bad for the rest of the Afghans in Afghanistan. That is something I
09:21don't want. Because it's not only the women in this country, there are men, women, old, young,
09:27of men and women and everybody. So you know, it's like, it's like bringing a situation into this
09:33country, because everybody says ha ha, and it's very much Allah mode, we are going to do that. At the
09:38same time, the people of my country has to pay. No, we have to find out more about it to
09:43know
09:43exactly what it is, how it is done, what is going to do for the future of this country. What
09:49is going
09:49to do to the other individuals of this land, to the men and women that are living here. But nobody
09:55thinks about this, really, they don't. And when I think about it, I'm being guilty. It's like, come on,
10:00guys. Yeah. Have you faced any retaliation from the government because of your outspoken views?
10:08Well, you know, I hope, I hope that they don't, you know, go against me, really. And they let me,
10:17I worked and I lived and I and I did everything in this country for all of these years,
10:22with a lot of love, love and a lot of respect. And today that I want to leave, and I
10:27although I have
10:28decided that I'll be talking about everything, and I have talked about everything and very openly now.
10:35But I am not disrespectful to what the Taliban are and who the Taliban are. I'm not disrespectful
10:41for what they are doing, which are the positive things that they have done for this country. I'm
10:44not. But at the same time, as a Muslim woman is my job. And if I start saying that things
10:51are going
10:51absolutely right for the women of Afghanistan, that means I'm lying. And when I'm lying, I'm going to be,
10:57I'm going to be responsible to Allah and to all of the women in this country that I'm lying something
11:03that is not right. So I hope that they understand that because that's where my whole problem is.
11:09Especially after they closed my shelter. Mr. Chaya, they closed my shelter on the 25th of,
11:17sorry, on the 10th of December 2025. I think you and I, we talked about that actually.
11:23On the 10th of December 2025, they closed my shelter. No, we didn't. They closed my shelter.
11:30They took 33 women and children, old and young, from my shelter. It's not that they took them and
11:38put them in a, you know, in a prison or something. They took them and put them in a place
11:43which is,
11:44which is for the, it was a place for the, it was an orphanage, the building. So they put all
11:51of the
11:51women in there with their children and everybody. They kept the children separate from their mothers
11:55and all of that. That's perfectly fine. But because, you know, the girls, when they were with me also,
12:00they didn't have, they were not free to all, to walk all around because I was protecting them from
12:04their families. You know, they all, these girls had run away from families that they were, that they
12:09were ready to kill every single one of them. So yeah, that's why, you know, it had to be,
12:15it has to be strict on them. And it was, but after that, no matter what I did, no matter
12:21how much I asked,
12:22no matter how many times I demanded to talk to me, let's talk about this. This is the future of
12:28these
12:28women in Afghanistan. These are the, the abused women of this country. They are hurt. I've been
12:34with them. They call me mother and they see me as their mother. Give me a chance to be with
12:39them.
12:39Let's talk. What are you going to do with them? Are you, are you going to, are you going to
12:43look
12:43up to them forever? Is that, is that the name of the game here? Or we could have sat down
12:47and
12:48talked about it and maybe find a way. But nobody, nobody does that. It's like, these are the things,
12:54you know, I cannot be banging my head continuously against the stone wall because this is logic for
13:01God's sakes. And when there's no logic, what am I supposed to do? I'm 78 years old. You know,
13:07I cannot, I cannot be every single day. I really cannot. It's beyond me. It's absolutely above and
13:14beyond me. And I love this land. I love the women, the children, the men, the everybody. I'm an Afghan,
13:21for God's sakes. And I, you know, threw into me. I'm not somebody that has just come from somewhere.
13:27I am, I am one of those people that actually made this country for the good or for the bad
13:32or
13:32whatever it is, you know, it is mine and I am Afghanistan's. So, you know, it is like,
13:40you know, as, as you mentioned your age, uh, you leaving at this age, a country that you so love,
13:49what kind of feeling are you leaving with?
13:52Oh, broken. Afghanistan broke me though. My heart is broken. My soul is so sad. Because you see,
14:02the little house that I rented with them being in it, I loved it. And the one or two or
14:09three girls
14:09and women that I know that have been a source of help or hope or whatever it is around for
14:14them,
14:14I'm going to be leaving them. My dog that I love him so much. And he's a street dog of
14:19cobalt.
14:20And I, and I saved him. And now I can't have them, him with me. I can't have my, my
14:26friends with me,
14:27you know, the boys that have been to me, the, the young men that are working for me. And their
14:32mother,
14:32too. You know, they call me mother. They respect me. They love me. I know that. I know that.
14:37So, you know, we've, we've lived many years together. Actually, with, with, with my driver,
14:43that right now is also one of my, you know, is the guard of the, and the house that I'm
14:47looking,
14:48you know, he's looking after me, I'm looking after him. You know, I've, I've, I've, I've been with him
14:53for the past 18 years. You know, 18 years is a long time. It's a long time. So, you know,
15:00I don't,
15:01I don't know. This is, it's very sad for me. It really is. It's not, it's not easy. It's really
15:05not easy.
15:06And especially coming to the States now. Right. You know, I was reading, I was reading some
15:14figures of economic hardship. And these are quite striking. These figures suggest that about 22
15:24million people, which is about 45% of Afghanistan's population, will require humanitarian assistance in
15:322026. That's right.
15:34About 12, 12 million children, and about 3.5 under 5 are already suffering from acute malnutrition.
15:43Now, these are absolutely astounding figures. Tell me, even, even a government like the Taliban
15:52would recognize that this is not good for Afghanistan, no matter what their ideological
15:57persuasion is. Are they sensitive to this at all, or they are not?
16:02I don't know. I think something has started, because I do remember hearing from Malab Radar
16:09at one point about a few days ago, that he said that they have to involve the private sector in
16:15order for
16:15them to start, you know, helping Afghanistan's economy, because it's not going to work like this.
16:20So, I don't know. I'm sure, I'm sure there are people in here that they have, absolutely, they know and
16:27they realize it. I know a lady that was in the Ministry of Finance and was working with everybody,
16:33and she was a fantastic person, and she really gave some amazing, you know, amazing, how shall I say,
16:45advice to the government regarding economy. And they really loved her, respected her, and they gave a
16:50huge party for her departure. And, you know, there were men and women, all of Taliban and some,
16:55so then the woman that actually did the work for them, and they really appreciated her. So,
17:01in other words, that means that they do see all of this, you know, that is actually happening,
17:05and they're seeing it. But why it's not put in practice, that's the part that is actually killing
17:11all of us. Because, you know, how much longer are we going to wait for everything to absolutely
17:16crash, and then, or we can do something about it? I don't know. I was watching an interview with
17:24Hamid Karzai, who has chosen to remain in Kabul. He's in some sort of house arrest. What is your view
17:33of a figure like that? Because there are such conflicting views of the man, from complete rejection of
17:40fame as a human being, to, I don't know, reverence. Well, yeah, I know, I know there's, there's a lot
17:47of people like that. That's true. I mean, we are in Afghanistan, we are living in a society that there
17:53is no, we have a saying that there is no good living man, and there is no bad dead man.
17:59So, you know,
18:00we are, we are, that's our culture. That's, you know, everybody, may Allah forgive that person,
18:07because very, very nice, very good man, and actually in his life, he has done all the atrocities in the
18:12world. And while he's alive, and he's doing something, and he's the worst person. You know,
18:17everybody has their weaknesses, everybody has their strength, everybody is a human being. I don't know
18:22why we expect somebody to be a hundred percent, there is no such a thing. But, you know, in Karzai,
18:28I personally, to tell you the honest truth, I did not dislike Karzai at all, always when he was,
18:35because one of the things that Karzai has, and I appreciate it, he always has a very nice way of
18:42greeting people of Afghanistan in a very nice way. And he shows his concern, and he was greeting them
18:49very well. And I mean, everything that he was doing, he did have a very nasty group of people around
18:55him,
18:55as all of them. But he was not as nasty as Ghani. The amount of, how shall I say,
19:06anger and dislike that I have towards that man, is too much.
19:10Yes. But do you think Karzai can still be a figure of any consequence, given the Taliban stranglehold?
19:19You know, I don't know, he could be. I have a, I have a feeling it can be. Why not?
19:27But as you, as you leave Afghanistan, what do you see in, in its future? Because it's,
19:34the Taliban of course remains in complete control so far. Do you see any hope at all as you leave?
19:43Well, you know, if they continue going like this, unfortunately, I can't see, not in the near
19:50future. But, but I am, I am hopeful, you know, I have hope. Because, because I'm a Muslim, and I
19:58should have hope. I cannot give up hope. That's not, that's good enough. But, but at the same time,
20:05I'm praying for them so, so that they will find their way. And, and, and, and they, and somebody
20:13will guide everybody to go the right way, for Islam's sake, for Afghanistan's sake, for the woman of
20:20Afghanistan, for humanity. Because the way the world is today, Mr. Chaya, is so, this world has become
20:28so mean and nasty. Right. So long, in any, many ways, that, you know. Absolutely. No, I agree with you.
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