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00:02Toby Jones is one of Britain's best loved actors he starred in Hollywood
00:08movies like Captain America provided Dobby's unmistakable voice in Harry
00:13Potter and received national acclaim for his role in the campaigning TV drama
00:18mr. Bates versus the post office for some reason I was always very excited by
00:25the idea I could make people who are older than me love I remember that as a
00:30child Toby won a BAFTA for his role in the BBC comedy detectorists here I ever
00:38tell you about a beautiful batlax I once found yeah you married her when he's not
00:45acting Toby likes to unwind as a DJ in cafes and bars first thing to say is I'm
00:52not a DJ my great friend Ben showed me the rudiments of how to do it thank God
00:59you're here I should wear these more I know they provide flumps yes I should
01:08wear them sorry I should be one of my great passions I suppose is hearing
01:15something I hadn't expected to hear and then playing it to friends you know that
01:19started when I was quite young and this is a way of carrying that on constant
01:24strength constant strength both of Toby's parents were actors my dad was away
01:31working at certainly a lot during the 70s when we was becoming what some people
01:37call a character actor Freddie Jones's long career included appearing in films
01:41like the elephant man and starring in Emmerdale for 13 years before his death in
01:462019 he was the first actor in his family thanks to a scholarship to drama
01:51school after a decade of working in industry I think drama school for my
01:56father I mean utterly transformed his life Toby's mum on the other hand comes
02:06from a long line of actors my mother was an actress as well and it was very lively
02:13boisterous funny childhood that side of the family has always had theater in it and I
02:22would love to know a bit more about the theatrical tradition that we are all descended from
02:33Toby and his two brothers grew up in a village in Surrey but their dad was from the industrial city
02:40of
02:40Stoke-on-Trent going to Stoke was like a massive culture culture shock and it just seemed tougher than
02:47where I came from the people were just great so welcoming and warm and I think that my father
02:54never really lost his connection with that Stoke personality but my dad was absolutely convinced that
03:04he had some Indian ancestry which we all slightly took the mickey out of because he was a romantic he
03:14loved other cultures and the idea that he might have some other ancestry I think would have been
03:20absolutely fantastic for him what do you think it'll be like taking this journey as you
04:03before Toby investigates his dad's romantic tale of a connection to India he's starting with his mum's
04:09side of the family to look into their theatrical roots he's meeting up with his younger brothers
04:15Caspar and Rupert to see what information they have to help hiya you're right yes come in how are
04:24things all right thanks you ready I think so you're the dealer twist and here's a picture of you it
04:31says
04:31Toby as count Dracula I look to have a lollipop in my mouth or I'm smoking a cigarette I think
04:41they're
04:42stick there yeah they're things they're bad things oh they're just big fangs yeah I said one of you two
04:47responsible for delivering this photo I found that photo thank you so much for my private collection
04:52that's so good of you to have brought that along yeah I'm ever so grateful that that's now on public
04:57record here we have a family tree view to look at which has got mum's side of everything yeah so
05:05there's mom and there's a picture that we've got of mum probably a drama school photos yes and then
05:13here we have Doreen or Dorky Dorky did you notice how all that outside of the family have really weird
05:21nicknames yeah Doreen it's quite Dorky was an actress yeah okay so what we've got next Elizabeth
05:28Dundas Harrison aka gogi go the nickname and she obviously is an actress I know about this person
05:38that this is yeah so this is Sarah Thorne's who I believe was an actress yes very famous actress
05:44manager a theater manager at the Theatre Royal Margate it's quite something there isn't it that side of
05:53the family was that one two three five it's a hell of a burden five generations of actresses yeah
06:00obviously it's interesting to think about that family and yeah and who that family were yeah and
06:09as you say in the Theatre Royal Margate to Margate yeah I'm so sorry neither of you are invited sorry
06:17about that oh oh dear there are five generations of actresses on Toby's mum's side but one name stands
06:28out above all his three times great-grandmother Sarah Thorne she was an actress who also ran a
06:36theatre in Margate Toby's intrigued by her and wants to find out more so we're off to Margate and it's
06:43not
06:43the first time I've been to Margate we used to bring our children to the beach here but a couple
06:49of
06:49times and of course Sarah Thorne my three times great-grandmother managed the Theatre Royal in
06:58Margate although I've never been in the Theatre Royal and I don't really know much about her
07:09the Theatre Sarah Thorne managed in the 1870s is currently being restored Toby is meeting the
07:16project manager Hayley White how many people get to come in here very few currently oh beautiful ceiling
07:26great just great isn't it is this how it would have looked when my great-great-great-grandmother
07:33was here yes this is a very rare plasterwork it's carton pierre which means it's basically painted
07:43paper mache so it's really really very very delicate it's beautiful I've not seen anything like that before
07:49it's it's a great thrill to see it and to feel some sort of weird distant connection to it
08:01so Hayley show me something about Sarah Thorne well the first thing we've got is an interview from the
08:11sketch and this is from October 1895 a chat with mr Sarah Thorne I did not come
08:19from an acting family my father was the lessee of the pavilion theatre and I was the first of the
08:26family to appear before the footlights I had a longing to play in my father's pantomime at last
08:33after a great deal of worrying I was promised as a great treat to be allowed to play for one
08:38night
08:39only but that was on the strict understanding that I should never ask to act again and you never did
08:46never
08:47said miss Thorne with an amused look it's really something isn't it to have access to her to her voice
08:56I
08:58mean it's reported quite always verbatim verbatim yeah it's full of her her spirit in a way well we do
09:07have some reviews from the era her performance yeah when she was 14 miss Sarah Thorne has appeared in
09:14the arduous part of little pickle little pickle little pickle I haven't played it the young lady was
09:21greeted with deafening shouts of approbation which were kept up throughout the whole of her certainly
09:27extremely clever performance clever performance in the song of since then I'm doomed don't know the song
09:38sounds good she was particularly successful throwing genuine pathos into it nor was she less efficient in the
09:47the songs of I'm a brisk and sprightly lad that's great that's great isn't it it's so those words are
10:00chosen very carefully clever performance and I like the idea that the deafening shouts about probation are
10:11going on during the performance as well so in that interview hmm Sarah says she was the first person to
10:19appear on stage in her family but she was acting in her father's play it was her father so it
10:30was
10:30Richard Samuel Thorne and he managed the pavilion theatre where's the pavilion this is in London
10:39Richard Samuel Thorne was an empresario who ran several theatres across England and also wrote
10:45plays but it was his daughter Sarah who took to acting as a profession so miss Sarah Thorne continues
10:54to receive pupils for lessons in elocution and stage practice miss Thorne's Shakespearean classes yeah the
11:05addresses Theatre Royal Margaret so she was running a drama school yeah so we believe the first one of
11:12the UK's first ever drama schools was set up by Sarah Thorne here here in this very theatre yeah and
11:18we also
11:19know that until that point acting had been largely kind of handed down and taught in families in families
11:25so this is the first sort of professionalization of acting and performances as a skill base and as a career
11:33Wow this is while she was the theatre manager here yeah how interesting and that's the first one in this
11:41country yeah one of
11:42the first she personally born extraordinary woman Sarah Thorne became one of the most celebrated actors in
11:50Britain she used her skills to train a new generation of talent in her drama school and many of her
11:55pupils
11:55went on to become household names and this part is quite interesting here probably no one lives or ever has
12:06lived who has had a finger in moulding and guiding the early career of so many of our leading actors
12:13and
12:13actresses there is generally a little flutter in the hearts of her pupils as she takes her seat of judgment
12:20under the shelter of the little green beige screen on the prompt side of the Margate stage somewhere over there
12:27oh then I take it you do not think acting can be taught most certainly not replied Miss Thorne
12:34with a merry twinkle in her eye one can only develop a talent that is already there
12:42thank goodness she wasn't my acting teacher
12:50well it was amazing to go and sense the ongoing presence of my grandmother just in those documents
12:58which conjure her so vividly both um as an actress and that she was in charge of one of the
13:08very first
13:09drama schools giving access to the theatrical profession which of course was going to be a
13:16movement that eventually led to the kind of drama school that my father went to that's quite extraordinary
13:23that there is that cause and effect which I'd never really thought about before because drop
13:28going to drama school is one of the key events in my father's life
13:36having discovered the pioneering role Sarah Thorne played in the establishment of theatre schools
13:41which would later benefit Toby's dad so significantly
13:44Toby is turning his attention to that side of the family
13:56I'm now going to explore my father's past
13:59particularly rumours that he always put about we always took the mickey out of
14:06that there was some Indian connection in his family
14:09I'm going to explore
14:13whether they there is any truth in that at all
14:16Toby knows nothing of his dad's side beyond his grandparents
14:19so he's on his way to see Hillary
14:22an old family friend who has an interest in family history
14:25and has been looking into Toby's tree for him
14:28hello Hillary
14:29good to see you
14:31how are you
14:33how lovely to see you thanks for doing this
14:35it's a pleasure
14:36thank you
14:38the first thing I've got to show you Toby is this picture
14:41oh hello
14:46oh I've seen this picture before
14:48see if you can guess which one's the actor
14:50yeah that was taken at mum and dad's in Trenton in the garden
14:56so that's dad with his two best and oldest friends
15:01and your grandma Ida used to call them the three musketeers
15:07oh yeah
15:08yeah
15:08obviously you knew my dad all your life
15:11what do you know
15:12I've got this Toby to show you
15:15ah this is my dad's attempt at an autobiography
15:19it's called Pictures in the Fire
15:22or The Actor's Tale
15:25quite a grand title
15:27my father's come up with that
15:28The Actor's Tale
15:30not an actor's tale
15:32the actor's tale
15:33so this is him arriving at drama school
15:36when I arrived at college
15:38I found the timetable to be a synopsis of my dreams
15:43and aspirations
15:44fencing, dance, mime, acting
15:48and to my joy the regime required the ultimate badge of office
15:55a cloak
15:58that really is, I mean that really is dad
16:01that's your dad, isn't it
16:02yeah
16:02so what have you found out about my dad's ancestors
16:05right, look at this photograph
16:07yeah, yes
16:07that's
16:08oh excellent
16:09yes
16:10okay
16:12so there's Charlie
16:13Charlie, my grandfather
16:15and Ida, my grandmother
16:17formidable
16:19formidable Ida
16:20who used to play a lot of piano
16:22dad said on Desert Island Discs
16:24about his mother playing the piano
16:26he said
16:26she played the piano as if she had a grudge against it
16:29yeah
16:30she was good though
16:32she could get lots of different moves
16:33yeah but I mean she literally hammered
16:34yes, a left hand bump
16:36yeah
16:37tell me a bit about Charlie
16:38right, well he was born in 1893
16:42and he was one of 14 children
16:46right
16:4711 of whom survived
16:49three children were lost
16:51so this is the census
16:52so this is the 1901 census
16:53census
16:54yeah
16:54oh, where is he?
16:56Charlie
16:58and
17:00that's when he was seven
17:01all born at the same place
17:03Fenton
17:04so Fenton is
17:05one of the six towns
17:07still
17:07that make up
17:08Stoke-on-Trent
17:09city of Stoke-on-Trent
17:10city of Stoke-on-Trent
17:11so shall we see if we can find his mum and dad
17:14I find it quite hard to read
17:15they are difficult
17:16so we've got
17:17his head means head of the family
17:20right
17:20Henry Jones
17:22right
17:22this is Henry Enoch
17:23my great-grandfather
17:25right
17:26yes, your great-grandfather
17:27this is great
17:28so I didn't know any of these people
17:30and so Henry, my great-grandfather
17:34was a potter's saga maker
17:38so he was working in the potteries
17:40so there is Henry Enoch Jones
17:44my great-grandfather
17:46a potter's saga maker
17:49I think I'm going to have to go
17:53to Stoke
17:54happy to go to Stoke always
17:56but I'm going to have to go there
17:57to find out what a saga maker is
18:00yes, I hope you enjoy it
18:02I will do
18:03I will do
18:08since my father died in 2019
18:12I realised that I cherish
18:14any and every connection
18:17that I have with Stoke
18:21Toby's yet to find any sign
18:23of a family connection to India
18:24but he's traced his dad's family
18:26beyond his grandparents
18:27Charlie and Ida
18:28to his great-grandfather
18:30Henry Enoch
18:31a saga maker in the potteries in Stoke
18:36so now I've got to go to Stoke
18:38and find out
18:38what a saga maker was
18:41it is
18:42so that's where I'm headed
18:44Stoke lies between Birmingham
18:47and Manchester
18:48and by 1800
18:49the coal and clay
18:50in the surrounding area
18:51had made it the world centre
18:53for pottery
18:53producing everything
18:55from industrial ceramics
18:56to plates and porcelain
18:58generations grew up
19:00working in the hundreds of potteries
19:01that dominated the city
19:03including Toby's great-grandfather
19:05Henry Enoch Jones
19:09Toby's hoping Ben Miller
19:11curator of ceramics
19:12at the Gladstone Potteries Museum
19:14can provide more information about him
19:19Hi Ben
19:20Hi Toby
19:20welcome to Gladstone Pottery Museum
19:23thank you
19:24what an extraordinary place
19:25these bottle kills
19:27you managed to keep them
19:28yeah absolutely
19:29I mean these are the jewel in the crown
19:31of the city
19:32and these were everywhere in Stoke
19:34weren't they
19:35pretty much yeah
19:36yeah they dominated the skyline
19:38when I used to come and see my
19:40grandma and grandad
19:42all these streets
19:43you know were full of people
19:44still full of people
19:45going to work in the morning
19:46yeah yeah
19:47coming home in the evening
19:48even though it was already in decline
19:50but there were many more of these
19:52than there are now obviously
19:54do you want to go and look around the side
19:56yeah yeah yeah
19:57of Stoke's hundreds of kilns
19:59today only a fraction remain
20:04so here's the kiln
20:07yes
20:07in which you
20:08place your ceramics for firing
20:11for baking
20:11so my great-grandfather
20:13was a saga maker
20:15saga maker
20:16yeah
20:16so what does that mean
20:17so that
20:18that's the person who makes
20:20makes all of these
20:21these are sagas
20:22they are sagas
20:23yeah
20:24these sagas
20:25fairly standard shape
20:26repeated
20:27there's different ones
20:28but lots of sort of standing
20:29what are they for exactly
20:32the purpose of a saga
20:33is to protect the ceramics
20:35so when you're firing ceramics
20:36you don't just load them
20:37into a kiln like this
20:38kind of willy-nilly
20:40you need to protect them
20:41from the flames
20:42from all of the ash
20:43that comes from
20:44from the coal that's used
20:45to fire these
20:46to make sure that they're pristine
20:47and they're not all kind of
20:48black and charred
20:49when they come out
20:49so that's the job of a saga
20:51and obviously the job of a saga maker
20:53is to make these
20:55I mean what's really exciting
20:56about this shape
20:57and these things
20:58they're something sort of like
21:00the temple
21:01the shapes are very
21:03they're caskets aren't they
21:05yeah
21:11Ben has been digging further
21:12into Henry Enoch's background
21:15so
21:15we have documents here
21:17Toby
21:18I can show you
21:19this one first
21:22okay
21:23so what is this Ben
21:24this is a census
21:26from 1861
21:27er
21:28there's bound to be a Jones
21:30on there somewhere
21:30yeah
21:31what you say
21:31there is indeed a Jones on there
21:33there's Henry
21:34Henry Enoch
21:36Jones
21:37my great grandfather
21:38and
21:39John Jones
21:41head of the family
21:42my great
21:43great grandfather
21:45is married to
21:46Jane
21:47who was born
21:49in India
21:53what
21:57okay
21:58okay
21:59okay
21:59what's extraordinary
22:01is that
22:02my father
22:03would always talk about
22:04having
22:04sort of an Indian
22:06part of his life
22:07and a sort of
22:09he felt like a
22:11kinship with Indian
22:12culture
22:14and we'd all
22:15take that with a
22:15pinch of salt
22:16and think that
22:17he was imagining
22:18sort of projecting it
22:19because that's what
22:20he wanted to happen
22:21but of course
22:21whenever we came to Stoke
22:23we never saw any trace
22:25of any Indian culture
22:27in his life
22:28whatsoever
22:28so we've got another
22:30document
22:30is
22:32this one
22:33again the clues
22:35at the top
22:37so this is
22:38a great great
22:39grandparents
22:40wedding certificate
22:41it is
22:42and is there a
22:43there's a transcription
22:44yeah
22:44let's get that out
22:47ah
22:48excellent
22:50er
22:51marriages
22:52solemnized
22:53at mirut
22:54in the year
22:551855
22:571855
22:581855
22:59john jones
23:01marries
23:01jane gilder
23:03and he's
23:05er
23:05private
23:06in the light
23:06infantry
23:07in 1855
23:09and she's
23:10a widow
23:11a widow
23:12yeah
23:13they're both
23:14living in mirut
23:15which is
23:16it's er
23:17near to delhi
23:18this is going to
23:19take me to india
23:19to trace
23:21I think so
23:21john and jane
23:23how exciting
23:26sure yeah
23:26so
23:27obviously
23:28toby i'm here
23:28in my capacity
23:29as a ceramics
23:30curator
23:30but there's also
23:31something else
23:31i think i need to
23:33reveal at this
23:34point in time
23:34i was visiting my
23:36mum who still
23:36lives locally
23:37and she showed
23:38me a letter
23:39from a tv
23:39production company
23:40saying that they
23:41were interested in
23:42researching
23:43the family history
23:45and a branch
23:46of her family
23:47was of interest
23:48to them
23:48so yeah
23:49we're related
23:50right
23:51yeah
23:53it's quite the
23:55coincidence
23:55i know
23:55it really really
23:56is
23:56so
23:57john and jane
23:58are also
23:59my mother's
24:00great great
24:01grandparents
24:02which makes us
24:04third cousins
24:05once removed
24:06that kind of
24:07good to me
24:09good to me
24:11that's extraordinary
24:12keep me informed
24:14you'll be
24:15you'll be the first
24:15on that
24:17i'm still
24:18processing
24:19quite a lot
24:20of what i've
24:20learnt here
24:22in stoke
24:23i'm so
24:24pleased
24:24and proud
24:25to have new
24:26connections
24:27in this town
24:28i've always felt
24:29such a fondness
24:30for stoke
24:31and the people
24:33here
24:34but also
24:35i've discovered
24:36a relationship
24:37that takes me
24:38not only
24:39back into
24:40the 19th century
24:41but also
24:43takes me out
24:44into the world
24:45to go to india
24:46which seems
24:47extremely exciting
24:52toby's delighted
24:53to have discovered
24:53that his dad's
24:54story of a
24:55connection to india
24:56is true
24:57his great great
24:58grandmother jane
24:59was born there
25:00a widow
25:01she married toby's
25:02great great
25:03grandfather
25:03john jones
25:04a private
25:05in the british army
25:09toby is on his way
25:10to mirat
25:11in northern india
25:12where he now
25:13has two mysteries
25:14to solve
25:16why was john
25:17in india
25:17and how did
25:18jane come
25:19to be born there
25:24it's nearly
25:2540 years
25:26since i first
25:28visited india
25:32and like most people
25:34i fell in love
25:35with the country
25:36and the way
25:37i fell in love
25:38with the country
25:38was by
25:38travelling by
25:39trains
25:40in carriages
25:40sleeping in
25:42carriages like
25:42this
25:45and meeting
25:46people on
25:47epic journeys
25:50these these
25:51these mighty trains
25:53that crisscross india
25:55and they had
25:56a huge impact
25:58on me
25:58when i was
25:5918
26:03so it's
26:04it's quite a thing
26:05to be back here
26:06in these carriages
26:08again
26:08imagining myself
26:09i know nothing now
26:11i knew absolutely
26:12nothing then
26:16in the mid-19th century
26:18when his great-great-grandparents were there
26:21india was run by the east india company
26:23then the world's largest private corporation
26:26they governed on behalf
26:28of the british
26:33toby has come to
26:34saint john's church
26:35in mirat
26:35where john and jane
26:37were married
26:37in 1855
26:40he's meeting writer
26:42jillian wright
26:43to see if she has
26:44any evidence
26:44about how john
26:46ended up in india
26:47it really is a wonderful church
26:48and with
26:50these fans
26:52that give it a sort of glamour
26:53to an englishman
26:54you sort of come in
26:56and go
26:56i'm somewhere very exotic
26:58here
26:58and it's a very big church
27:00and it was built
27:01for the cantonment
27:02and what is a cantonment
27:03a cantonment
27:04is an area set aside
27:05for the army
27:06like a military base
27:07i'd love to know
27:08how someone from the potteries
27:10would have joined the army
27:11well we have
27:12one document here
27:13which is the first time
27:15he appears
27:16in the military records
27:17john jones
27:18a nice distinctive name
27:19yeah
27:20john jones
27:21now this is
27:22comes from what's known
27:23as a pay list
27:24okay
27:24this is a pay list
27:25so this is used
27:27so you're saying
27:27how much you're paying
27:28your various troops
27:30and this is in 1848
27:33so this is long
27:34before he was married
27:35okay
27:36he was 18 and a half
27:38hmm
27:39five feet nine inches
27:43newcastle under loan
27:44so that presumably
27:45was his local
27:46recruitment office
27:47we sent a researcher
27:48to the regimental museum
27:51and with great difficulty
27:53he managed to locate
27:54a whole series of records
27:56excellent
27:57which bring him here
27:58and we know from those records
28:00that he sailed to india
28:01and he sailed the long way around
28:03came up to the east coast
28:05near calcutta
28:07excellent
28:08excellent
28:08this is a map from 1850
28:11reflecting the borders of the time
28:13but it gives you an idea of the journey
28:16from near calcutta
28:19where they started
28:19and this is more than 500 miles up the river
28:23to the halfway point
28:25yes
28:25which is
28:26al-lahabad
28:28which is now prayagraj
28:30and from there they marched
28:32and they marched
28:33to ambala
28:34which is right up here
28:37a huge march
28:38that seems extraordinary
28:40five
28:41500 miles did you say
28:43more than 500 miles
28:44on foot
28:45on foot
28:48that's an amazing thing isn't it
28:50but with this amazing journey
28:52one of the officers in his regiment
28:54wrote an account of the journey
28:56a man called bailey
28:57and he travelled at more or less
28:59the same time
28:59and possibly with
29:01john jones
29:02and so i thought it
29:03might be interesting
29:05for you to
29:06see some extracts
29:08from the memoir he wrote
29:10the scene in camp here
29:12was very pretty
29:13the regiment was very strong
29:15officers and men numbering
29:161100
29:17altogether there must have been
29:19nearly a hundred tents
29:21they were pitched in lines
29:22under a grove of trees
29:23with a broad street
29:25down the centre
29:25in which the regimental parades
29:28were held
29:28what a sight
29:29so they were
29:31setting camp every night
29:32yes absolutely
29:33and they had to learn
29:35how to pitch their tents
29:36that's not something
29:36you would have learnt
29:37in stoke
29:37no no
29:38no exactly
29:40exactly
29:41and they used to set off terribly early in the morning
29:45and this gives you an idea of what happened when they got up
29:49by and by our carriage for the march arrived
29:53elephants for the tents
29:56camels for the men's bedding
29:57and at last we started on our march up the grand trunk road
30:01leading through Kornpur
30:04Alighur
30:05Alighur and Delhi to Ambala
30:08yes that's the way they're heading for Ambala
30:12what a journey
30:14he'd basically had a tour of India
30:17tour of north India
30:18yes
30:18so many different communities
30:20languages
30:22landscapes along the Ganges
30:23total culture shock
30:25I mean the variety
30:27and the diversity of it
30:28for someone
30:30who'd had such a local life
30:32yes
30:32to be suddenly put on this global scale
30:35hmm
30:35absolutely
30:38I love the elephants and camels
30:41so that's a brilliant explanation
30:44of how John would have arrived here
30:47in Mirut and Umbala
30:51Toby's discovered that his great-great-grandfather
30:54came to Mirut
30:55as part of the army enforcing British rule in India
30:58now he wants to know
31:00what his great-great-grandmother Jane was doing there
31:02and how they met
31:05terrific to be back in a tuk-tuk
31:11here's a smoother ride with an electric motor
31:15slightly smooth
31:19oh
31:27that's so close
31:34he's meeting Dr Umit Patak
31:37who has asked him to come to Mirut's cantonment cemetery
31:40a short ride from St John's church
31:49all I know about Jane
31:51my great-great-grandmother
31:53is that she was a widow
31:56when she married my great-great-grandfather
31:58are you able to tell me anything more about her?
32:01I'd like you to see this document
32:03this is Jane's first marriage certificate
32:09ah Jane here
32:12Jane Burns
32:13there she is
32:14okay
32:14Jane Burns
32:1517 years of age
32:18and she marries Michael Gilda
32:21do you have a
32:23yeah
32:27and he is a lance corporal
32:29in the 98th
32:31so Michael Gilda
32:34is
32:34a soldier
32:35and she's married a soldier
32:37and she goes on to marry
32:38my great-great-grandfather
32:39who's also a soldier
32:41is that normal?
32:42you know
32:43how
32:43she would have been living
32:44in the cantonment?
32:45yeah
32:46she would have spent
32:48most of her time
32:49in the cantonment
32:49because all cantonments
32:51were self-sufficient
32:51with bazaars
32:52and they were family stationed there
32:56officers and men
32:57sometimes had their families
32:58living with them
32:59in the cantonments
33:00to pass the time
33:02and make themselves
33:03feel more at home
33:04cantonments were turned
33:05into small outposts
33:07of the British way of life
33:09with church services
33:10and even theatres
33:13we know that Jane
33:15when she married
33:16my great-great-grandfather
33:17was a widow
33:18what happened to Michael?
33:23this is a record of burials
33:25in Umbala
33:27Umbala
33:28ah, where my
33:29great-great-grandfather
33:31went
33:31yes
33:34so Michael Gilda dies
33:3631st of January
33:381855
33:39aged 30
33:40if my calculations
33:42are correct
33:43Michael dies in January
33:44buried in February
33:46and then Jane marries
33:48John
33:49in May that year
33:50yes
33:51what were the circumstances
33:52presumably very difficult
33:54circumstances
33:54yes
33:55she would have found herself
33:56in very bad circumstances
33:58at that time
33:59so it was always
34:01obviously a very positive choice
34:03to get married again
34:05to get married again
34:06as fast as possible
34:07as a widow
34:08Jane was in a precarious position
34:11there was no obligation
34:12for the army
34:13to continue providing for her
34:15leaving her reliant
34:16on the goodwill
34:17of the officers
34:18marrying again
34:19was a way to secure
34:20a safer future
34:21for her
34:22and for the four children
34:24she had with her first husband
34:25Michael Gilda
34:26Mary Jane
34:28Honora Matilda
34:29Emmeline
34:30and Samuel
34:31when Jane married Toby's
34:33great-great-grandfather
34:34John
34:35in 1855
34:36he inherited
34:38a ready-made family
34:39so what happened
34:41to the children
34:41that she had
34:43with Michael
34:43I'll show you
34:44the next document
34:45thank you
34:48so
34:50burials
34:511856
34:52and this is
34:54oh
34:54Honora Matilda
34:56age 7
35:00daughter of Michael Gilda
35:03August of cholera
35:06and look
35:07look at all the deaths
35:08from cholera
35:10Emmeline
35:11Gilda
35:13in August
35:14same month
35:16same
35:17same month
35:18as her sister
35:19yes
35:19she's dying
35:21on the 5th of August
35:21she's dying
35:23on the 9th
35:24so Emmeline dies
35:26aged
35:26one and a half
35:27and Honora
35:28Matilda dies
35:30aged 7
35:34that's awful
35:35that's awful
35:36yes
35:37Jane's children
35:39Emmeline
35:39and Honora
35:40were victims
35:41of a cholera
35:42pandemic
35:42which had started
35:43in India
35:44in 1817
35:45and swept
35:46across the world
35:47spread by infected
35:49water
35:49over the following
35:50century
35:51the disease
35:52killed around
35:52a third
35:53of all British
35:54troops
35:54and almost
35:5540 million
35:56civilians
35:56in India
35:57alone
35:58so what
35:59happened
36:00to the other
36:01two
36:01Samuel
36:01and Mary
36:02Jane
36:03we have
36:04no records
36:05for them
36:05in neither
36:06India
36:06or the UK
36:07right
36:08so
36:08it's our
36:09calculated
36:10judgement
36:11that they
36:12also
36:12must have
36:13perished
36:14without leaving
36:15a record
36:15right
36:17so she was
36:18left childless
36:19probably this
36:19moment she
36:20doesn't have
36:20a child
36:20who is alive
36:21it says
36:22burials in
36:22Merud
36:23so they're
36:23buried here
36:24they're buried
36:25here
36:25yes
36:27somewhere
36:27somewhere
36:28yes
36:30we don't
36:31know where
36:32we don't
36:32have a map
36:33for the
36:33symmetry
36:34so sometimes
36:35it becomes
36:35nearly impossible
36:36to mark out
36:37the exact graves
36:38of it
36:38they're here
36:38somewhere
36:39they're here
36:39somewhere
36:51visiting
36:51there's something
36:55consoling about
36:56knowing that
36:56they're here
36:57yes
36:59and that
37:00they're being
37:00visited in a
37:01way by me
37:01yeah
37:02that is the
37:03greatest of
37:04things and
37:05for the first
37:05time in
37:06more than
37:07150 years
37:07come here
37:09remember them
37:10saying their
37:11names again
37:11yes
37:11after 150
37:13years
37:14yeah
37:15extraordinary
37:23so those
37:24are the
37:24children
37:24that
37:27she had
37:28with Michael
37:28yeah
37:30well there
37:31must have been
37:31children between
37:32John
37:32and Jane
37:34do we know
37:36anything about
37:36them
37:36yeah I think
37:37you should see
37:38the next record
37:38I think I
37:39should
37:42right
37:42so this is
37:45baptisms
37:46yes
37:46in
37:48Lahore
37:49yes
37:51here we are
37:52John and Jane
37:53Jones
37:54living in
37:55Lahore
37:58August the
37:5812th
38:00John
38:00William
38:01a boy
38:02born in
38:041857
38:051857
38:06so who's
38:06John
38:07William
38:08John
38:08William
38:08is the
38:09first child
38:09their first
38:10child
38:10yes
38:11just to say
38:12John
38:12William
38:13was baptized
38:14on September
38:15the 6th
38:15which is the day
38:16before my birthday
38:17oh
38:20that's interesting
38:21yeah
38:22fascinating
38:24this is the next one
38:25yeah
38:25so burials
38:29John
38:30John
38:30John
38:31Jones
38:35oh he died
38:36after a month
38:37yes
38:39on the document
38:40the parent's name
38:41is not there
38:42but we think that
38:44it is the same
38:45child which was
38:46born a month
38:47before
38:47so she's now
38:49lost
38:50five children
38:52yes
38:54I'm just thinking
38:55about what
38:58Jane is going
38:59through
39:01that life is so
39:03vulnerable
39:03that for young
39:04children
39:04the joy of
39:06them being born
39:07is qualified
39:09by the fear
39:09that they
39:10may not survive
39:11yes
39:11sadly
39:12when all this
39:13was happening
39:14she's losing
39:15her child
39:15she's alone
39:16in Lahore
39:16where was
39:17John
39:17for that
39:18we'll go
39:19to the next
39:19location
39:23so
39:24to come
39:25to a
39:26cemetery
39:27which
39:28always
39:29very atmospheric
39:30places
39:31particularly
39:32a cemetery
39:33so far away
39:35from
39:35Stoke-on-Trent
39:37from the UK
39:38and to have it
39:40made familiar
39:41in a strange way
39:42that these
39:44anonymous
39:44gravestones
39:45have stories
39:47to tell
39:48and to see
39:50those names
39:52written down
39:52of children
39:54dying
39:55is very
39:56very touching
39:57and to think
39:58that their graves
39:59are here
39:59and I'm
40:00revisiting them
40:01after 150
40:02more than 150
40:03years
40:04these lives
40:06that were so
40:06short
40:06and somehow
40:08sort of being
40:09reanimated
40:11by renaming
40:12them
40:24Amit
40:24has asked
40:25Toby
40:25to meet
40:25him
40:26in a temple
40:26a short
40:27ride across
40:27town
40:32Amit
40:34so
40:35why have you
40:36brought me here
40:37yeah
40:38actually we've
40:39come to one
40:39of the most
40:40important
40:41monuments
40:41in Indian
40:42history
40:42this
40:46this is the
40:46place
40:47where the
40:47great uprising
40:48of 1857
40:49started
40:50which in
40:50those times
40:51was called
40:51the Indian
40:53mutiny
40:53but in India
40:54today it's
40:54called the
40:55first war
40:55of Indian
40:56independence
40:56because
40:57it was just
40:59not
41:00the soldiers
41:01which took
41:02their arms
41:02and started
41:03fighting
41:03the administration
41:04but also
41:05common men
41:06businessmen
41:07and farmers
41:07who joined
41:08them in
41:09these battles
41:09lasting nearly
41:10two years
41:13on the 10th
41:14of May
41:141857
41:15the peace
41:16and routine
41:17that Toby's
41:17great-great
41:18grandfather
41:19John Jones
41:19had taken
41:20for granted
41:20was suddenly
41:21shattered
41:22an uprising
41:23against the
41:24rule of the
41:25British East
41:25India Company
41:26broke out
41:27in Mirat
41:28the conflict
41:29quickly spread
41:30throughout much
41:30of India
41:32so where
41:33was my
41:33great-great-grandfather
41:35your great-great-grandfather
41:37was at
41:37Sialcote
41:38close to Lahore
41:39from where
41:40his regiment
41:41was ordered
41:42to march
41:42to Delhi
41:43where you'll
41:44be going
41:44next
41:46the rebels
41:47captured Delhi
41:48on the 11th
41:49of May
41:49making it
41:50the centre
41:50of the uprising
41:53Toby's
41:53great-great-grandfather's
41:55regiment
41:55was ordered
41:56to march
41:57to the city
42:00following in his
42:01footsteps
42:01Toby's on his
42:03way to Delhi
42:04I now know
42:06that John Jones
42:07wasn't with his
42:08wife
42:09when she lost
42:10her children
42:11I'm trying to
42:12imagine what on
42:12earth he felt
42:15having relatively
42:16recently arrived
42:17in this country
42:18and now finds
42:18himself in war
42:19and the reality
42:20of his adventure
42:21is hitting home
42:25John Jones
42:26Regiment
42:26the 52nd
42:27Infantry
42:28had not been
42:29in a battle
42:29since Waterloose
42:30and 40 years
42:31earlier
42:32and Toby's
42:33great-great-grandfather
42:34had never seen
42:35action
42:35to find out
42:36what part
42:37they played
42:37in the conflict
42:38Toby is meeting
42:39historian
42:40Professor
42:40Rudrangshu Mukherjee
42:42at Ashoka
42:42University
42:47While they were
42:49marching
42:49while they were
42:50already
42:50on route
42:51to Delhi
42:52they saw
42:53their first
42:54action
42:54at Trimog
42:55Heart
42:56So
42:57this is an
42:59account by
42:59Captain Cross
43:00of that
43:01military encounter
43:03So
43:03your great-great-grandfather
43:05was a part
43:07of Captain Cross's
43:08regiment
43:08My great-great-grandfather
43:10Yeah
43:10Their numbers
43:12were estimated
43:13at
43:131100
43:14We killed
43:16about 400
43:17The men
43:18behaved
43:18very steadily
43:19considering
43:20it was the
43:21first time
43:21they had been
43:22under fire
43:23The first volley
43:24astonished them
43:25They made a sort
43:26of swerve
43:27at first
43:28when the bullets
43:29whistled about
43:29their heads
43:31as if looking
43:31for cover
43:33I felt very much
43:34as if I should
43:35like to take up
43:35a position
43:36under a gun wagon
43:37too
43:39The total loss
43:40that day
43:40was about
43:4160 killed
43:42and wounded
43:42It's vivid
43:43isn't it
43:44terrifying
43:45It is terrifying
43:49It's so interesting
43:50when one thinks
43:51of now
43:51the way we view
43:53and appreciate
43:55what soldiers
43:58and victims
43:59of war
44:00go through
44:01the trauma
44:04and hear
44:05this sort of
44:06just from
44:07the simple reading
44:08of it
44:08you just get a glimpse
44:09of the kind of trauma
44:11I wish I could
44:12take shelter
44:13Here's a captain
44:14saying that
44:15he's obviously scared
44:17At the time
44:19Delhi was a walled city
44:20The British laid siege
44:22to it for three months
44:23while they mustered
44:24their forces
44:24for an assault
44:25On the 14th of September
44:27the battle
44:28to recapture
44:29the city began
44:30John Jones
44:31and his regiment
44:32the 52nd
44:33were ordered
44:34to breach
44:34one of the most
44:35important entrances
44:36the Kashmiri Gate
44:38It was heavily defended
44:39So
44:40familiar handwriting
44:42Yeah, back to cross
44:43Back to cross
44:43Familiar handwriting now
44:48It's an account
44:49of people
44:49that are being wounded
44:50Sergeant Palk
44:51shot right through
44:53his cheek and mouth
44:54He's lost a few
44:55back teeth
44:56but is going on
44:57all right
44:58Old Pitten
44:59left arm amputated
45:01Marshall shot
45:01in left arm
45:02Corny ditto
45:03self in the cheek
45:04He would not retire
45:06but remained
45:07till the last
45:08You know what a
45:09hard little beggar
45:10he is
45:10from the 15th
45:12to the 20th
45:13we were occupied
45:14working our way
45:15up streets
45:16over
45:17and through houses
45:19etc
45:20when we got
45:21entire possession
45:22of the town
45:24Again, I mean
45:25it's invaluable
45:26isn't it
45:27the account
45:28because it's
45:28the actuality
45:29of this kind of
45:30fighting
45:30street by street
45:31fighting
45:32Yes
45:34The glimpse
45:35of the personality
45:36of these soldiers
45:38putting up
45:38with this
45:39putting up
45:40with these injuries
45:41these things
45:42you know
45:43how anyone
45:44recovers
45:45from any of this
45:45I don't know
45:47The conflict
45:48was brutal
45:49with massacres
45:50on both sides
45:51After the British
45:52recaptured Delhi
45:53their suppression
45:54of the uprising
45:55across the country
45:56was ruthless
45:57It's estimated
45:58that as many
45:59as 800,000
46:00Indian people
46:01were killed
46:02Do we know
46:03what happens
46:04to him next?
46:05Yes
46:06Ah yes
46:07Jones
46:07John Jones
46:10Yes
46:10I have him here
46:11Regiment number
46:122406
46:14which is now
46:14familiar to me
46:16Private
46:17to England
46:18So this is a list
46:19of casualty returns
46:21What does that mean
46:22casualty returns?
46:23So it means
46:24people who
46:26return to England
46:28after having suffered
46:30injury
46:31See our casualty return
46:33January 1860
46:35Do you happen to know
46:37what his injury was?
46:41We don't have details
46:42of his injury
46:43the nature of his injury
46:47But if you could travel
46:49on a ship
46:49my guess would be
46:51that it's not
46:51very, very serious
46:53Right, right
46:57I mean
46:59staggering
46:59Staggering, yeah
47:01As the return of soldiers
47:02from war always is
47:04Always is
47:05How to process that
47:06How to process that
47:07How to process that experience
47:09How to make sense of life
47:14Ah, this is the census
47:16I saw in the potteries
47:18So he's
47:20This is him
47:21He's returned with Jane
47:25They're both 31
47:27And back in Stoke-on-Trent
47:30And he's the
47:32He's back being a labourer
47:34Labourer
47:35Very different
47:36Very different situation
47:38So
47:40That's quite clear about John
47:42Can you tell me anything
47:43about his wife Jane?
47:46Well I think that's another story
47:48As the cliche goes
47:49Yeah
47:50I'm getting used to that response
47:54It's strange to
47:57Find this connection
47:59With the
48:02Perhaps pivotal moment
48:05The
48:06The first
48:07Indian war of independence
48:11I feel a strong connection
48:14Now with my
48:15Great-great-grandfather
48:16As I learn more about him
48:18But it's
48:20Confusing
48:21To
48:24Find that
48:26The most
48:26Significant event
48:28Of his life
48:30Was probably
48:31His participation
48:33In this
48:36Incident
48:40So there it is
48:41Kashmiri Gate
48:44Extraordinary to imagine
48:46My
48:48Great-grandfather
48:49Great-great-grandfather
48:52Coming through that gate
48:54Into the city
48:55Here
48:55From that side
48:56Over 150 years ago
49:00And perhaps
49:01Even harder
49:02To contemplate
49:04The impact
49:06Of that
49:08Terrible conflict
49:09On him
49:10As he made the journey
49:12Back to Stoke
49:13And trying to think of
49:14Who on earth
49:15He would have been
49:16At that stage of his life
49:18Having experienced
49:19All of that
49:19As Jane
49:20And he
49:21Went back to
49:23Stoke
49:23Which although it wasn't quiet
49:25Was a lot quieter than this
49:27I suspect
49:28But before I leave this
49:33Busy doesn't really do it justice
49:35City
49:37I'm going to go and find out some more
49:39About Jane
49:44If I make it
49:45If I make it
49:53Toby now knows about his great-great-grandparents' lives in India
49:58But he still wants to solve the mystery of how his great-great-grandmother Jane came to be born there
50:03To find out more about her
50:06Toby is meeting Professor Merrin Simiraj
50:09I know very little really about my great-great-grandmother Jane Jones
50:14I'd love you to tell me some more about who Jane Jones was
50:20And about her parents
50:24Before I tell you anything
50:25Would you like to take a look at this document that we have with us?
50:32Baptisms
50:33Yes
50:33When you saw Jane's first marriage certificate
50:36In that one
50:38Her father's name was listed as Samuel Burns
50:41Yes
50:46Can you help me out?
50:48This is the Jane we are looking at
50:49We have Samuel and
50:51Mary Burns
50:52Mary Burns
50:53Yeah
50:53Her parents
50:56And the date here is
51:011829
51:02Corporal Samuel
51:04Yes
51:05Yes
51:07Burns
51:07So he's in the army
51:08Yes
51:09My great-great-great-grandfather
51:12Yes
51:13So that would make Mary Burns my great-great-great-grandmother
51:21Yes
51:22And my great-great-grandmother Jane Burns
51:25Yes
51:25She's baptised in Bellary
51:26Yes
51:27And where is that?
51:28Yeah, Bellary is in the southern part
51:29Excellent
51:30South of India
51:31Yeah
51:31Can you tell me anything more about
51:34Corporal Samuel and Mary Burns?
51:38Yes, of course
51:38Here is the document
51:39So I'm looking for
51:44Uh...
51:46So...
51:47These are the parents of Jane
51:50Yes
51:51And they were married in 1828
51:54Right
51:55In Bellary
51:56In the south of India
51:57Yes
51:58Yes
51:59And...
52:00Corporal Samuel Burns
52:0248th Regiment
52:03Right
52:05A widower?
52:07Yes
52:09And Mary Jones
52:10A widow?
52:11Yes
52:12Widow and widow
52:13Indo-Britain
52:20Ah, so...
52:25So Mary was, er...
52:27Indo-British
52:28Yes
52:28Yes
52:30Oh, right
52:34Er...
52:35That would mean that
52:36Yeah
52:37She had Indian ancestry
52:40So, can you tell me more about her?
52:43Her father might have been British
52:46And her mother an Indian
52:49Right
52:50Yeah, which...
52:52That's the most likely scenario
52:54That is the most likely scenario
52:59That's so wonderful
53:01Because I was told as a child by my father
53:05That there was this connection
53:07Yes
53:07That there was some Indian heritage that we had
53:11One of the questions I wanted to find out on this journey was
53:14Where did this idea come from from my father?
53:18I'm not sure that I thought he was making it up
53:20But I wondered whether he was exaggerating it
53:24And, er...
53:25I think it's because he wasn't specific about it
53:27And this is a way of being much more particular about it
53:31And, er...
53:32There's a part of me that wishes I could confirm it to him
53:35Oh, I...
53:35That's...
53:36That's just great
53:38So what I also find very fascinating about this, er...
53:42Marriage is that it is a formal marriage
53:45Which is documented
53:46Which is solemnised
53:48Which tells us a lot about the kind of relationship they may have had too
53:52Also, because during those times there were many who were posted here from Britain
53:57Who had different kinds of relationships, formal and informal, with the native women
54:01And, er...
54:03All of them did not necessarily, you know, were formalised as a marriage
54:07So this also tells us about the kind of, er...
54:11Very deep and rich relationship they had, you know
54:14Is there anything else you can tell me about this, er... relationship?
54:18We do not have any more documents which could tell us more about either of them
54:23Or their families
54:24Oh, their relationship, yeah
54:25Yes
54:26Ah, but if you remember
54:27The team had requested you to get a DNA test at...
54:32Yes
54:32At some point
54:33Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah
54:34Yes, yeah
54:35So would you like to see...
54:36I didn't remember that, I just remembered
54:38Yes
54:39So would you like to see what this says?
54:42Yes
54:42So this is at the limit of what this kind of DNA testing could do
54:47Because we were trying to trace it back to five generations
54:50And, but still we are very confident that these are good results
54:56Excellent
54:59So, English, 87%
55:02Germanic, 4%
55:03I imagine this is all fairly standard
55:06But there's 1% Indian
55:08Yes
55:08South Indian
55:09Yes
55:14Well, I'm very proud of that 1%
55:17I am really delighted to be part of this journey too
55:22It's amazing, it's an intergenerational memory which now we have also confirmed and corroborated with multiple historical and scientific records
55:30Well, I mean, I know for a fact it was a big part of my father's sense of himself as
55:39he expressed it to me
55:41Yes, it is indeed very, very fascinating because much of what we are, yeah, it also lies outside of these
55:49documents and papers and what could be put in black and white
55:53It's the stories we tell
55:54It's the stories we tell
55:54It is the stories that we tell
55:55Great
55:58Amazing, amazing
55:59This is amazing though
56:00This
56:00This
56:01You're one of us
56:01You're one of us
56:02LAUGHTER
56:08I think, well I know it's too soon to make sense of all of this information that I've received
56:17it's it's amazing to have the past tilled over like this and to meet even obliquely these people
56:26who I knew nothing about I think specifically I'm very touched that my dad's story that he
56:35told about himself that I think in some way empowered him and empowered his life in the
56:39way he led his life that we never really took seriously with India
56:46it teaches you that the stories that we tell about ourselves are as important a part of our
56:52identity is the actual facts that I've just learned about and I'm yeah I'm a little sad that I can't
57:01go
57:01back to him with hard scientific fact but I also know he wouldn't have cared anyway he knew who he
57:06was and I'm really enthusiastic to share it with my own children and with wider family
57:18so
57:22so
57:28you
57:30you
57:30you
57:33you
57:33you
57:34you
57:36you
57:36you
57:41you
57:42you
57:42you