00:00Now, there are a lot of celebrities who have also joined hands with the protests taking place on the street.
00:06Among them, actor and former Member of Parliament, Shabana Azmi, joins me now.
00:11She, good to have you on the show, Shabana.
00:13You were there on the weekend with the CJP protests.
00:16You've seen what's happened today on the streets.
00:19How do you now see these student protests, this particular protest?
00:27I was right there when the tear gassing happened.
00:30And I was there, I was witness to the children being lathi charged and also girls, young girls being lathi
00:36charged.
00:37And they tried to put the blame on the students and said somebody threw a shoe and that's how they
00:45started.
00:46But that's not what I saw and that's not what all the students kept saying.
00:51They were showing me their wounds and they were saying they were totally wanting to do a completely non-violent
01:01protest,
01:02which is what was being told to them constantly from the podium.
01:08And I have never seen such controlled children when they were so full of rage and anger,
01:18but completely determined that it is going to be non-violent.
01:25But the good thing is that even after that, that happened, when I asked them, are you scared?
01:31Are you now going to go back?
01:33None of them, not one single one of them said that we are afraid or we are going to stop
01:41from now onwards.
01:42But I really think when you try to stop with such force, what is a completely democratic right of a
01:50citizen of this country and particularly our youth,
01:53because we are used to so many politicians talking about the youth is the power of the country.
02:00The youth is the power of the country.
02:02And all they want is to initiate a dialogue.
02:06There were so many young people.
02:09There were 15-year-old children who came there and said that if we don't come here today, we are
02:15going to live in love with us.
02:17You have to listen to them.
02:19What are they saying?
02:20Just listen to them.
02:22What does it mean?
02:23No, no, but you know, Shabana Azmi, while you say yes, there were 15, 16, 18-year-olds protesting there,
02:29there were also clearly people who were perhaps not directly involved, were not even students who were involved with the
02:35protest.
02:35Many believe political groups and in particular anti-social elements may have infiltrated the protest
02:40and that's what led to the confrontation with the police.
02:46Well, we have now heard that tomorrow, today they have said that we are going to clear the place,
02:51but we have heard that tomorrow, if there is any gathering at all, they are going to turn it violent
03:00and then bring in the paramilitary forces and make it into a really violent thing.
03:06Is this any way of behaving?
03:08See, in any protest, what happens is all kind of anti-social elements get involved
03:15and they try to take advantage of that.
03:18We were prepared for that.
03:19We knew that would happen.
03:21But what is still inexplicable is when two of the representatives went to J.P. Nadda,
03:30he only asked them to write what their grievances were,
03:34spent 10 minutes with them and then sent them,
03:37did not have a dialogue with them, said, just say what you want
03:40and then they wrote the letter and went away from there.
03:49But the government believes, ma'am, seems to be that these are primarily anti-government and even anti-Prime Minister
03:56Modi protesters
03:57propped up by a section of the opposition, a section that has been traditionally critical of the Modi government for
04:03the last 12 years
04:04and they are exploiting the student anger.
04:09Anti-national, terrorists, Khan market, tukude, tukude, again.
04:16If you don't understand anything, then you brand everything.
04:21This is a completely wrong thing, completely.
04:24In fact, what I was so heartened by when I asked Neha and Manish and Ameen to give up their
04:35fast was that the usual suspects were not there, Rajiv.
04:39There was just a sea of young people whom I've never seen in my life.
04:45Toh yeh bilkul jhoot paat hai, ki yeh anti-Modi protesters ko, students ko istamal kia jara hai.
04:53There's absolutely no truth in that and to hide behind that allegation, I think, is not what you expect from
05:04a democratically elected government.
05:06No, no, so then, no, no, if I may ask, then what brought a Shabana Azmi to the spot?
05:10Is this your way of expressing solidarity with the student protesters or is this an expression of your political affiliations?
05:20I have never been involved with any political party.
05:25I have never been a member of any political party, nor on record I am telling you that I ever
05:31intend to be a member of any political party
05:34because I have always believed that joining a political party is putting the fetters on
05:40because the party's truth becomes your truth, which is necessarily a one-sided truth.
05:46Even when both Javed and I were in parliament, we were presidential nominees.
05:51We were with no party.
05:54What happened is on the 15th of July, both Javed and I wrote a letter to the prime minister, which
06:02I will share with you,
06:03in which we said that we are appealing to you as concerned citizens and as former members of the Rajya
06:13Sabha,
06:13and we have no intention of going to the social media.
06:18We are appealing to you as individuals, and all we are asking is please initiate a dialogue with them.
06:25And we sent the letter by email, by fax, and then dropped it personally also.
06:32We received a message saying that you will get a reply in two days.
06:36So we waited two days, then we waited three days, then we waited four days, and then on the fifth
06:42day,
06:42I decided that I would come, and now I would go public.
06:47That was not our intention because our intention was not to draw attention to ourselves.
06:53We have to draw attention to these young, young students who have come forward with so much courage.
06:59I have never seen something like that in my life.
07:04But I have to ask you this, Shaban Asmi, what is the solution then?
07:07Surely you can't expect any government to sack a minister simply because a particular group wants the minister to be
07:14sacked.
07:15Yes, there should be accountability for paper leaks, but is that the job of the students to decide what kind
07:21of accountability?
07:24No, but why are you making that the peg?
07:27That is only a symbolic thing that they are asking for.
07:30What they are asking for is that they are asking for educational reforms.
07:37They are talking about rehauling the entire education system.
07:41They are saying, please, for so many years, so many years, we've been saying,
07:46allocate 6% of the GDP to education.
07:49Every year you make it less and give it more to arms.
07:53When it is clear, human development is what happens, if you pay attention to education, to public health and to
08:02women's empowerment,
08:03only then can you really measure the...
08:05But hold on.
08:07But hold on.
08:08I was at Jantar Mantar a couple of days ago.
08:12Most of the posters I saw at their protest site was sacked Dharmindra Pradhan.
08:21That was what the Cockroach Janda Party is asking for.
08:26But there were a whole lot of people, like I'm not with them, and there were many, many people who
08:30were not with them,
08:31but were making common cause with these young people.
08:37So, I think this is a way of saying, all right, let's put all of them under the same blanket
08:47and accuse them of that.
08:49You have to go beyond that.
08:51And educational reforms are talking about that.
08:54So why can't you talk about that in this situation?
08:58Why are you stuck on one thing?
09:01So, you know, you're making a point, at least have a dialogue, but what do you see as the end
09:05game, therefore, in this entire protest?
09:07Do you see it actually having any impact on government?
09:10Do you see it as a momentary anger of the youth that has just expressed itself, a frustration, not just
09:15with paper leaks, but with the education system in general?
09:18Well, you know, I will be very, very shocked if what you are saying comes true, because I have never
09:27seen that kind of jazpa I have never seen.
09:31And definitely the government will be thinking, that we have done this with the Shaheen Bagh, we have done this
09:36with farmers, we have done this with the citizens' protest, and we will do this with them.
09:43What are you showing the world?
09:48Okay, so you jammed the phones at the site, you pulled up the mic, so that the mic couldn't work
09:56and people couldn't hear.
09:58For a little while you did that.
09:59But, I mean, what do you think that people will go home and then they will not post?
10:04They will not, it will not be on social media?
10:07What kind of thing is this?
10:08Tell me.
10:09So, you are saying this movement, in your view, has legs, and therefore the best way forward is for any
10:15government, in fact the government in power, to have a sustained dialogue with the student representatives, or with the youth,
10:22or perhaps with the opposition in parliament.
10:24Am I correct?
10:28Absolutely, that's what we are asking for, and that's what we are demanding, and that is why we are with
10:34the students.
10:36And do you see the opposition then using this movement to exploit it also for their own political ends?
10:44In fact, I think the opposition has a very strong role to play just now.
10:50The opposition, really the ball is in the opposition's court, because now parliament session is on.
11:00They have to insist that a dialogue should be initiated and that they should discuss this in the parliament.
11:07It's really resting on the opposition, firmly and squarely.
11:11They should move above their own personal interests and make common cause with the students.
11:19Okay, I'm going to leave it there.
11:21Shabana Azmi, always good to have you on the show, and when you speak, we listen.
11:27Thank you very much for joining me here on the show tonight.
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