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00:02Hello and welcome to Copa Independent, the final show of this World Cup, both in the sense of our number
00:11of episodes for the tournament and also because of course it is about the final, reflecting on Spain's second star.
00:18They do feel like the rightful winner, certainly of the final itself. I mean, we're talking about second stars and
00:26they beat what ended up becoming. It felt like a black hole of an Argentina team.
00:31But I am of course joined here by my colleague, senior football writer Richard Jolly, who's beside me for the
00:35game and to his left of Felt and Argentine fan in the press box, given some of his responses.
00:41But Rich, what's your main impression then of the 23rd World Cup final?
00:47I think, as you say, the best team won the final and the best team won the tournament. And those
00:52two things are genuinely positive.
00:55But it was really quite a frustrating final in quite a lot of ways. I think we both felt that.
01:01Argentina's attitude, Argentina's whole performance was annoying.
01:07It was a shame. They didn't have a shot for about 120 minutes. They spent more time. Well, they wasted
01:14a lot of people's time, really.
01:15They showed the worst aspects of Argentinian football today, whereas in some of the other games, they shown the best
01:20aspects of Argentinian football, both in terms of the quality and using the spirit in the right way.
01:26And here today we had the ill discipline, Enzo Fernandes' needless red card, Leandro Paredes blowing up after the final
01:35whistle.
01:36And if that is Lionel Messi's final World Cup game, as it surely will be, it was actually quite a
01:42sad way for him to go. I think he deserved better, even if the rest of the team didn't.
01:47It's a bit of a funny one, that, isn't it? Because usually in these situations, we've actually been discussing this
01:52a bit all tournament, how more interesting it is often to talk about the team that loses.
01:58But that is mostly because it's definitive, whereas at the final, we usually have talking about the champions and what
02:03the significance is, the greater meaning, which we will get into.
02:06But it does feel the more interesting topic of debate and discussion is actually Argentina.
02:12And as you say, it felt like quite a sour way to end it. A lot of the game just
02:16felt like it was a very sour experience.
02:20Look, obviously, it's a dream, it's a privilege to go to the World Cup final, despite everything that FIFA tried
02:25to turn it into on this occasion.
02:27It is kind of the ultimate fixture in football.
02:29But this specific iteration of it, I have to say, I think that is the worst final I've attended. That
02:34was my fifth.
02:34Even 2010, which is actually quite a similar game and kind of ebb and flow and a Spanish victory and
02:39how it ended.
02:40It felt more intense than this.
02:43This, and I would have to say, I put it almost exclusively down to Argentina.
02:47I mean, they're the first World Cup finalists not to have a shot within 90 minutes.
02:50With this, Rich, do you think this is an inevitable consequence of the way they've been playing all tournaments or
02:56just something unique to the occasion that they couldn't go further,
03:00that it's about the opposition they played against?
03:02Did they get too revved up for England? Is the issue kind of?
03:04The team that plays the second semi-final usually loses.
03:08I mean, what's your kind of main impression of why that performance was as it was?
03:13I think there's probably several factors.
03:15And one is that they had to put so much energy, both physical and emotional, into every game in the
03:21knockout rounds.
03:22I mean, really, they had quite a nice run of fixtures.
03:25And yet somehow Argentina managed to make them such a difficult run, including, you know, going to extra time in
03:31the quarterfinal against Switzerland that I went to.
03:33You can also talk about just how good Spain are at controlling a game and suffocating a team.
03:40But some of it comes down to mentality as well.
03:43And, Miguel, you were at the semi-final against England for Argentina.
03:47And it felt in the first half they weren't very interested in playing football then.
03:50And it was only when they went 1-0 down that they actually concentrated on scoring goals and showed they
03:55could.
03:55And in this game, they didn't really attempt to score goals again until they conceded.
04:00But the difference is that against England, they conceded after about 55 minutes.
04:05Here, they didn't concede until after about 105 minutes.
04:08And by which point, they'd already gone down to 10 men.
04:11And they'd already got themselves entrenched in that sort of attitude of trying to frustrate.
04:17And by that point as well, they'd already brought on the resident hatchet man, Paredes, and another agent provocateur in
04:24Giuliano Simeone.
04:26Yeah, I mean, it's funny as well.
04:28Like, maybe Spain actually got their tactics spot on outside not winning it in 90 or their approach spot on.
04:33Because they scored just giving Argentina not enough time.
04:37Because as you say, a bit like the England game, they finally came to life a bit.
04:40Messi was finally on the ball.
04:41And when he finally got the ball in the dangerous second position, he set up a chance that came from
04:45a corner.
04:46And then that one big opportunity they had, which is Simeone blazing the ball over the bar.
04:51They might have tried a few shots before that.
04:54Maybe they'd have found their range a little easier.
04:57But I would have been wrong if that went there.
04:59Like, I have to say, from about an hour on, and especially when Mourinho missed that header,
05:04just after Nico Williams said the goal is allowed, I just still can't understand why it was this allowed.
05:07But I felt it was going to be one of those days for Spain on the worst possible day.
05:14And I just felt like this is going to penalties.
05:16Martínez is going to have a wonder show.
05:18And we're going to have the kind of, how to put it, the least value World Cup winners in a
05:24final of all time.
05:26The team that did the least to win it.
05:29And just picking up on something else you said there, which I do think that, well, two things from it.
05:33We'd obviously been saying all tournaments, a little like with England, that side of the draw,
05:38that these were flawed, dysfunctional teams that as soon as they're going to cope against an elite side, they'd lose.
05:43And this was probably that.
05:45There just weren't many elite sides in the competition.
05:47And secondly, that just Spain, for what Argentina do and how little pace they've got, is exactly the wrong team
05:55to play.
05:56Like, look, it's a work of final.
05:57You don't want to reduce everything to kind of discussion about England.
06:01But from speaking to people close to the Spanish camp before the game,
06:05they obviously, it's not the sort of thing they would 100% articulate for the fear of kind of things
06:08blowing up in their face, as it could have done.
06:10But I think they very much prefer to play Argentina rather than England,
06:14because England had far more weapons than Argentina.
06:17Yeah, and one of the things we saw, actually, was the number of weapons Spain had.
06:21And that's, we've had this kind of situation in the tournament so far where it's,
06:27a lot of it has seemed to come down to the outstanding individuals of the best teams.
06:31And in a way, Argentina have been the most extreme case of that with Messi.
06:35And Spain have been at the other extreme with being the best team.
06:38And then, and how they've won a lot of the games has been from not just having the best team,
06:42but the best squad.
06:43And it's been Mikel Moreno who's come off the bench in a couple of games.
06:47Here today, Ferran Torres was the one who got the winner.
06:50Pedri, I thought, was excellent.
06:52I know you thought that as well when he came on.
06:54And I thought Nico Williams was the real catalyst.
06:57And Spain haven't had him at his best in the tournament because of injury.
07:00But he seemed to be ubiquitous when he came on.
07:04He set up, he set up the goal.
07:06He showed one of the things Argentina don't have.
07:08But Argentina do not have high-quality wingers.
07:10And if not, since Di Maria left.
07:13And Spain obviously had Yamal from the start and Williams at the end.
07:17But one thing I also wanted to pick up was when you said talking about Spain as a kind of
07:22opponent for Argentina
07:23and Argentina's lack of pace.
07:25Well, if Spain had lost the semi-final, they'd have lost it to France.
07:29And then you'd have had a final of France against Argentina.
07:33And would France have beaten Argentina by pace, whereas Spain beat them really much more by control?
07:40And I think that there's something in that as well that you mentioned about the squad.
07:44It does point to Spain being a real collective.
07:46And there's a lot of elements to that, which I think is why they are good winners as well.
07:52I think actually they're probably, almost by virtue of the fact they scored more goals,
07:55had more games where they scored more than one goal.
07:58They're probably more popular than they were in 2010, even if the boring debate has resurfaced a bit.
08:04But the fact that Ferran Torres, who's been an impact sub for most of this competition,
08:08the fact that he scored a win, as you say, it speaks to the depth of their squad,
08:12but also the idea of a collective that it wasn't one of the stars.
08:15And there is something in that as well.
08:17I mean, obviously, we've talked a lot about the idea that Spain have, how it amplifies what they've got.
08:21But I've done a piece on this for the morning,
08:24where apparently there was a phrase during the round among the Spanish team
08:28that was pretty much repeated, a key moment of that game.
08:31I think it was around either 90 minutes or the end of the first half extra time,
08:36where it was the first time panic was beginning to come into their game a little bit.
08:40And they were reminded of what Luis Aragona said to them, sent to the team in 2008,
08:45which is basically, calm, you're better.
08:48And I know that's quite a simple phrase, but it does speak to the idea of trust in the idea
08:54and trust in your technique.
08:56And I do think this is particularly relevant,
08:59especially amid the discussion about England,
09:01which, and all their federations,
09:04which is, look, and I don't mean,
09:07I don't mean there's a moral dimension to this in terms of kind of good and bad.
09:10There is maybe a moral football dimension, though,
09:13where you're kind of getting into the stuff that, like, people,
09:16the grand days like Busby and Shankly used to speak about,
09:21which is true football bravery,
09:23which is basically a trust in your own technique,
09:26a willingness to take the ball on your terms
09:28and actually do something with it,
09:31which I think actually Nico Williams speaks to a lot,
09:32given he's willing to get the ball and just run.
09:34Same with Jamal, who was pretty much kind of double marked throughout the game.
09:37And it just makes such a difference.
09:40And that, even if you don't like what the Spanish idea produces as a whole,
09:46the core of it is still, basically,
09:49trust your technique, trust your willingness to have the ball,
09:52trust your own approach.
09:53Which I think there is a bit of a lesson there,
09:55beyond all the lessons you can take about kind of Spanish coaching
09:58and all this.
09:59Yeah, absolutely.
10:00I think you'd probably say that Spain probably have the most
10:02defined style of play of any international team at the moment.
10:08And that's probably helped as well by having a coach in De La Fuente
10:12who's come through, who's worked with a lot of these players
10:14at the youth system and has come through that way
10:16and it's the complete opposite to the approach England took
10:19and Brazil took with Ancelotti as well
10:21as to trying to bolt on a supposed winner of a coach
10:24and imagine that that would be the thing that made the difference.
10:27And in terms of Spain's strength in depth,
10:30I think part of that relates to the style of play
10:34in that some of these players can come into the team
10:37and maybe almost look better players than they are,
10:40whereas sometimes with other international teams
10:42they look less than the sum of their parts.
10:45I mean, Pedro Porro has just come 17th in the Premier League
10:48in the last two seasons
10:49and I think has been the best right back in this World Cup
10:52and that's a case in point.
10:53And you see that with quite a few Spain players
10:57and I think one of the other things with Spain is
10:58there has been some continuity since the last Euros.
11:02There's also been some players who've gone out
11:04and some others have come in.
11:05You know, two years ago it was Alvaro Morata,
11:08it was Dani Carvajal,
11:09it was Dani Julian, I think, at the back.
11:11Other players have come in
11:13and it's felt quite seamless,
11:15which I think does point to a style of play
11:18and also a unity within the camp that works.
11:22And it does in turn suggest that in two years' time
11:26it could work as well.
11:27Partly, of course, because this is not an old team.
11:30I mean, Jamal in particular is not an old player,
11:32but it's not an old team.
11:33But it does suggest that if two or three players lose form
11:36or get injured or something else happens,
11:39that it should be more possible for Spain
11:42to slot someone else into their stead.
11:45Yeah, it's remarkable, isn't it, with Jamal?
11:46I mean, he's won the World Cup before the age of 20
11:48and he'll feel he has unfinished business in the competition.
11:51He could have scored twice today.
11:52There was a chance early on and in that free kick.
11:55I think Argentina generally did a good job on him.
11:58But you mentioned something there,
11:59which is rather kind of, I suppose,
12:01players being able to slot in.
12:03And that's also something else that this team actually defines
12:05much more even than the kind of dominant team of 2008-2012.
12:09Which is the coach, Luis De La Fuente,
12:11has basically had, I think it's almost the entire squad,
12:14maybe bar your mouth because he was training to the seniors,
12:16in youth teams.
12:17I mean, Rodri won the under-19 Euros with De La Fuente
12:21back in 2015 and they just won it again in Wales,
12:24like the next off the conveyor belt.
12:26And that, I mean, that means it's beyond an idea
12:29because the players know the idea intimately
12:31and they pretty much know each other intimately.
12:32Like, De La Fuente knows all these lads' family,
12:35their families, like, for over a decade now.
12:37And just like the team in 2010,
12:39there'll be ebbs and flows.
12:42But I think there has been an evolution
12:44in Spanish coaching as well,
12:45where they talk about how the kind of,
12:47that possession-pressing style,
12:49there is more intensity to do with that.
12:50It's evolving.
12:51You see it in more of these young players coming through.
12:53As you said, the age profile is very good.
12:55They will fancy being in good shape
12:57for what is a home World Cup,
12:58although the host city for the final
13:00hasn't been announced yet.
13:01It could be in Casablanca,
13:03or rather than Madrid.
13:04But they'll be fancying that.
13:06And they'll be fancying going on and winning more,
13:08something that De La Fuente
13:09picked up on after the game.
13:11And that is something that I think
13:12other countries are going to have to pick up on.
13:15And I think there's a fascinating one there.
13:17Because obviously when Spain
13:19won the World Cup in 2010,
13:21it obviously created a wave
13:22where UEFA have these kind of study groups.
13:24It's now called UEFA Share,
13:26where essentially the federations come together.
13:28And they're actually quite collegiate
13:29and share ideas,
13:30what you're doing,
13:31what we're doing,
13:32how you can develop.
13:33And obviously around that period,
13:35in 2013 in particular,
13:36everyone was going to Spain.
13:38And the FA were especially interested.
13:40And that's essentially the genesis
13:42of the St. George's Park project.
13:44And one of the genesis,
13:45they were always,
13:47some of that goes into the England DNA.
13:49Except on the Spanish side,
13:51they did keep some of it back,
13:53which is essentially the quality
13:54of their grassroots coaching really.
13:55And something you can't really,
13:57you can't really create in the same way.
13:58that all of these players grow up
14:00playing small,
14:01small or organic,
14:03small space,
14:04small-sided games in the street.
14:05And that's then institutionalised.
14:07But they felt that the FA,
14:09they were concentrated too much
14:11on the structural issues
14:11rather than the actual football detail.
14:13And it's hard not to think
14:14that does translate into
14:15the great difference
14:17between England and Spain
14:18in this competition,
14:19which is basically Spain
14:20being able to play like that
14:21against Argentina.
14:22And England just completely retreating
14:25in their semi-final.
14:26And this,
14:26even though I do think
14:28Tuchel was at fault
14:29with the approach he had
14:30and the subs he made,
14:31obviously some of that itself
14:32is a consequence
14:33of the context of
14:35players just not being able
14:36to keep the ball
14:36like Spanish players.
14:38Yeah,
14:39and you talked earlier
14:40about how
14:41some people thought
14:42Spain were boring in 2010.
14:44And I'm one of them,
14:45to be honest.
14:46I felt that that team
14:47in 2010
14:49was probably technically
14:50even better than this one.
14:51They had even more good passes,
14:53but they took an idea
14:54to an extreme.
14:54This team,
14:55I think,
14:56has a bit more varied attributes
14:57having the two wingers
14:58when Williams is on the pitch.
15:00They only often had one
15:01when it was Yamal
15:02and Alex Baina
15:03on the other flank,
15:04but having a number 10
15:05in Danny Olmo as well,
15:06having a striker
15:07in Mikel Oyasebel.
15:09So they've actually got
15:10a really nice blend
15:11of attributes
15:12where they're,
15:13whereas the 2010 team,
15:14I would argue,
15:15were a bit too
15:16one-dimensional,
15:17even if they were incredible
15:18at that dimension.
15:19But one thing
15:20I felt generally
15:21about the tournament
15:22as a whole,
15:22and I don't know
15:23whether you would agree
15:24or disagree with this,
15:25is that Spain
15:26have been really good
15:27in a time at the moment
15:28where there aren't
15:29that many really good
15:30international teams.
15:32Now,
15:32I think,
15:34in a way,
15:34I felt France
15:35were the second best team
15:36in the tournament
15:37even though they came fourth.
15:38But when you look
15:39at a lot of the other teams,
15:40I think you and I
15:41both feel Argentina
15:42were not as good
15:43as they were four years ago.
15:44They still ended up
15:45in the final again.
15:46It felt that
15:47a lot of the middle-ranking teams
15:49have got better,
15:49but there's not too many
15:50great teams out there.
15:51And there were a lot
15:52of teams there
15:52who you looked at
15:53and thought was
15:54a last-16 team
15:55or a last-8 team.
15:56But there weren't really
15:57that many teams
15:58you thought
15:59compared to
15:59in some previous World Cups
16:01that you really wanted
16:02to see in a semi-final
16:03or a final.
16:04And so,
16:05the average level of teams
16:06has probably risen,
16:08I would say.
16:09But there's not as many
16:10great teams in the past.
16:12And that does,
16:13I would suggest,
16:14mean if Spain
16:14can keep up this level,
16:16that positions them
16:17very well
16:17for the next few years.
16:19Yeah,
16:20I mean,
16:20from that,
16:21because a final
16:22tends to dictate
16:25the larger memory
16:26of a tournament.
16:27Where does
16:28this World Cup
16:29stand for you?
16:30Before we get into
16:31a lot of the day's events
16:32and what it says
16:33in a bigger sense,
16:35what's your main impression
16:36with this World Cup?
16:37Mine,
16:37I have to say,
16:38is
16:39it was
16:40a good World Cup,
16:41it was entertaining
16:42throughout,
16:43and even the final,
16:44as sour as it was
16:45as a game,
16:46is the final,
16:46so it always has
16:47a tension of its own.
16:48But,
16:49on the whole,
16:51most of the best football
16:53was in forgettable stages
16:55like the groups.
16:56There were some good
16:56storylines there.
16:57In the end,
16:59it didn't go to the peaks
17:01necessary
17:02in the knockouts
17:04and it really mattered.
17:05And actually,
17:05there were a few parallels
17:06with USA 94,
17:08which is a great open
17:09attacking tournament
17:09and then sort of dwindled
17:10towards the end.
17:12Yeah,
17:13I see what you mean.
17:14I mean,
17:14I slightly perversely
17:16have 94 as my favourite
17:18World Cup,
17:18even though it had
17:19a terrible final.
17:20I would argue 94
17:21had more good games
17:24and more really good
17:25drama in the knockouts.
17:26I think with this World Cup
17:28compared to the last one,
17:29you've obviously got
17:29the massive difference
17:30of a brilliant final
17:31in 2022
17:33and really not
17:34a brilliant final
17:34this time around.
17:36I don't think
17:372022 was actually
17:38a great World Cup,
17:39but I think people
17:40will remember it
17:41very,
17:41very fondly
17:42because of the final.
17:43This one,
17:44I do think,
17:45I think it will be
17:46remembered in part
17:47as sort of
17:48the tournament
17:49of some of the
17:50outstanding individuals,
17:51which I think
17:52probably suits
17:52both FIFA
17:53and American culture
17:54to have Messi
17:55and Mbappe
17:57and Haaland
17:58and Kane
17:59and Bellingham
18:00and Dembele
18:01all scoring
18:026, 7, 8,
18:0410 goals.
18:04But in terms
18:05of the knockout stages,
18:07were they incredible?
18:08I don't think so.
18:10I don't think so.
18:10There was some
18:11of the best games
18:12were ones
18:13that almost
18:14produced shocks.
18:15You might have been
18:16at both of Argentina's
18:18games against Egypt
18:19and Cape Verde.
18:20For me personally,
18:21I was at
18:22Norway versus Brazil.
18:23That was a real
18:24highlight of mine
18:25and Croatia
18:27versus Portugal,
18:28I think,
18:28was probably
18:28my other real highlight.
18:30But yeah,
18:30I'd probably put it
18:31as good rather than
18:32great as a World Cup
18:33and in part,
18:35that's maybe
18:36because there weren't
18:38enough real top teams
18:39and also
18:41you got one
18:42or two shocks
18:43like the aforementioned
18:44Norway versus Brazil.
18:45It didn't quite lead
18:47to someone going
18:48even further.
18:49You know,
18:50if Norway had beaten
18:51England,
18:52which arguably
18:52they'd have deserved to,
18:53maybe in a way
18:54that would have made
18:55a better World Cup.
18:56Yeah,
18:57I'm probably the same
18:58thinking that
18:58and even,
18:59I'm trying to think
18:59as you were speaking there,
19:00I was trying to think
19:00of the best games
19:01I was at.
19:02England,
19:03England-Mexico was good
19:04but I do wonder now
19:05how much of that
19:05was just amplified
19:06by the emotion
19:08of the Azteca
19:08and what it is
19:09because actually
19:10I do remember
19:10thinking of that game,
19:12like I know
19:12it was such a big thing
19:13for England
19:13but I didn't think
19:14Mexico were going
19:15to score in the last
19:1620 minutes.
19:16I just couldn't see it.
19:17I thought Argentina-Egypt
19:19was better as a game
19:20and probably the best
19:21I was at
19:21although
19:23Argentina-England,
19:24like obviously
19:25it's the fixture
19:25of maybe the richest
19:26history in this World Cup
19:27in terms of
19:28its epic games.
19:29It never got close
19:31to the heights
19:31of 1986
19:33obviously
19:33or 1998
19:35but it did have
19:36an epic quality
19:37due to the way
19:38it ended
19:38and the storylines
19:40to it
19:40and like that was
19:41possibly a World Cup
19:43classic in that sense
19:44even if it was one
19:44that obviously
19:45English people
19:45won't need to
19:46or won't want
19:47to look back on again.
19:48To reiterate this
19:50because the final
19:51ended up being overseen
19:51by two coaches
19:52who are Federation men
19:54is something we've
19:55discussed already
19:56and I do have to
19:57reiterate
19:57I think it is
19:59a good thing
20:00in the long run
20:00for English football
20:01that they haven't won
20:03just by parachuting in
20:04a very expensive coach
20:05although it doesn't
20:06sound like
20:07unfortunately
20:07it's going to
20:07happen for now
20:08but English football
20:09should be looking at
20:10it doesn't have to be
20:11an idea like Spain
20:12but the FA
20:14should be wanting
20:15an English team
20:16to play
20:16with an English identity
20:18within a modern context
20:20something that's based
20:20on aggression
20:21intensity pressing
20:22like the classic
20:23English values
20:23when people from abroad
20:24do come to English football
20:25that they really appreciate
20:27and they're like
20:28it doesn't feel like
20:29it feels they're besotted
20:30with Tuchel
20:30which is understandable
20:32to a degree
20:32but I have to say
20:33I think the spell
20:34could be broken there
20:35and that should be
20:36the lesson
20:36that the FA take
20:37from this
20:37and it should be
20:38a lesson I think
20:39that other federations
20:40take too
20:41yeah I think
20:42there's an interesting
20:44question in terms of
20:45Tuchel and the English
20:46identity
20:46because I think
20:47he almost got too
20:48hung up on Premier League
20:49pace
20:50and Premier League
20:51intensity
20:51when he picked
20:52the squad
20:52and when he then
20:53left out some of
20:54the technical players
20:55but then it seemed
20:56for him it was
20:57going to be all about
20:58fast wingers
20:59and when Gordon
21:00comes off
21:01Rashford comes on
21:02and when Saka
21:02comes off
21:03Madweke comes on
21:05until suddenly
21:06he went into
21:07this plan B
21:08of just retreat
21:09retreat retreat
21:10and it meant
21:10that when Gordon
21:11comes off
21:12actually it's
21:12Esri Conce
21:13who comes on
21:14but in terms
21:15of your broader
21:15point I agree
21:16I think both you
21:17and I would have
21:17preferred it if
21:18Lee Carsley
21:19had got the
21:20England job
21:20and I don't think
21:21that's us being
21:22revisionist
21:23because I think
21:23you know I think
21:24we probably both
21:25would have preferred
21:26it at the time
21:26and when you look
21:28at De La Fuente
21:28and you look
21:29at Scaloni
21:30and you look
21:30at their knowledge
21:31of the players
21:32that they've got
21:33that does seem
21:34hugely beneficial
21:35and when you look
21:37at the countries
21:38who have tried
21:39to import a manager
21:41at great expense
21:43it's been with
21:44really mixed results
21:45and even going back
21:47in World Cup history
21:48there's some great
21:49examples of imported
21:51managers doing
21:52really well
21:52but sometimes
21:53they're with
21:54different types
21:54of countries
21:55in different
21:55positions
21:56I'm thinking
21:56of Gus Hiddink
21:58with South Korea
21:59in 2002
22:00which is a sort
22:02of very different
22:02situation to
22:03England right now
22:05and you can see
22:06why South Korea
22:08then would want
22:09someone like Hiddink
22:09when Japan
22:10then would want
22:11someone like
22:11Philippe Trisier
22:12to make a difference
22:14and these days
22:15the leading
22:16footballing nations
22:17actually some
22:18of the managers
22:19who have worked
22:20there have
22:22had some form
22:23of longevity
22:24they've known
22:24the players
22:25sometimes they
22:26haven't had a
22:27great club record
22:28I mean you look
22:29at Yogi Love
22:30with Germany
22:30you look at
22:31Deschamps with
22:31France
22:32obviously with Love
22:32towards the end
22:33he outstayed his
22:34welcome
22:35but for a long
22:35time it was
22:37very successful
22:37and that does
22:39seem to be the
22:40formula that
22:40actually works
22:41rather than just
22:42simply saying
22:43this guy's won
22:45the Champions League
22:46well maybe he has
22:47but I think
22:48international football
22:49and club football
22:50seem maybe more
22:51different than before
22:52yeah I think it
22:53was a World Cup
22:54that really emphasised
22:55exactly that
22:56and that's almost
22:56the main lesson
22:57I would take
22:58I think
22:58international football
22:59has been diverging
23:00down a different
23:01path for some time
23:02I think that was
23:03really made clear
23:04here with the
23:04irony of course
23:05that Spain are
23:06the closest to
23:07a club team
23:08but I think that's
23:08a different sort of
23:09thing because
23:10what they do
23:11is so rare
23:12and I don't think
23:13other countries
23:14can replicate it
23:15in the same way
23:15without deep thought
23:17even if they
23:18should take
23:19lessons off Spain
23:20but yeah
23:21and this is the
23:22thing
23:22if it is going
23:23in a different
23:23path
23:23I think it's
23:24now become
23:25there's an
23:26onus on other
23:26countries to
23:27actually think
23:28about how they
23:28grapple with that
23:29and it does feel
23:30like the lesson
23:30isn't well
23:31this guy's
23:32I have to say
23:33it was always
23:34the one thing
23:34I thought about
23:34the Tuchel thing
23:35and I like
23:36Tuchel personally
23:36I think he's
23:37obviously an
23:38excellent coach
23:39but this almost
23:40simplistic thinking
23:41well he's got
23:42a good record
23:43in knockouts
23:44the knockouts
23:44being all club
23:45games
23:46let's just
23:47bolt that on
23:47it does feel
23:49a little bit
23:50basic in terms
23:51of how that
23:51works
23:52and there's a
23:52real irony to
23:53that because
23:53as you're
23:54speaking there
23:55I wonder
23:56how like
23:59in a strange
24:00way I would
24:02say England
24:02could be more
24:03satisfied of the
24:041998 World Cup
24:05than this one
24:06just because
24:07there was more
24:09of a character
24:09to their performance
24:11and the way they
24:12went out
24:12and it left a
24:13more lasting image
24:14than what this
24:15does which feels
24:16slightly confused
24:17right down to
24:18that weird
24:19third and
24:20four place
24:20playoff
24:21which I
24:21wouldn't
24:21actually read
24:22too much
24:22into
24:22but it is
24:23it does
24:23play into
24:24all this
24:24yeah it's
24:25interesting isn't
24:26it in that
24:27officially it's
24:28England's second
24:28most successful
24:29World Cup
24:30and their most
24:31successful one
24:31abroad anywhere
24:33and yet I
24:34would put it
24:35below 1990
24:36and below
24:372018
24:37and I don't
24:38think
24:38and also
24:40below Euro
24:411996
24:41for another
24:42issue
24:43I don't
24:44think
24:44we
24:44remembered
24:45anything
24:45like as
24:46fondly
24:46as those
24:47because
24:47those
24:48had some
24:48real high
24:49points
24:50in terms
24:50of
24:51breakthrough
24:51moments
24:52in terms
24:53of good
24:53football
24:53in terms
24:54of an
24:55overall
24:55feel
24:56this one
24:56I do
24:57think
24:58is a
24:58missed
24:59opportunity
24:59and even
25:01going back
25:01to what
25:01you were
25:01saying
25:02about
25:02not reading
25:02too much
25:03into the
25:04third and
25:04fourth
25:04playoff
25:05but one
25:05thing
25:05you maybe
25:06can read
25:07into it
25:07is that
25:08well
25:08Bakayo
25:09Saka
25:09is a
25:09really
25:09good
25:10player
25:11and that
25:11maybe
25:12he should
25:13have
25:13actually
25:13come
25:14onto
25:14the
25:14pitch
25:14at some
25:15point
25:15against
25:15Argentina
25:16I mean
25:16clearly
25:17the
25:17Argentina
25:17game
25:18was never
25:18going to be
25:18the same
25:19as the
25:19France
25:19game
25:20it was
25:20never
25:20going to
25:20be
25:206-4
25:21but watching
25:22Saka
25:22and Rashford
25:23in the
25:23first half
25:24in that
25:24game
25:24and remembering
25:25that Saka
25:26didn't get
25:26a minute
25:27against
25:27Argentina
25:28and Rashford
25:28got about
25:29two at
25:29the end
25:29it did
25:30show that
25:31this is
25:32actually a
25:32more talented
25:33England squad
25:35than some
25:35in the
25:35past
25:36and one
25:36of the
25:36reasons
25:36why I
25:37think
25:37England
25:37really
25:38shouldn't
25:38have
25:38regrets
25:39about
25:392018
25:40is that
25:40that was
25:41a team
25:41that I
25:42felt
25:42went
25:42further
25:43than was
25:44logical
25:44and yes
25:45they lost
25:45the semi-final
25:46and you can
25:47you can look
25:48at things
25:48and say
25:49yes it got
25:49away from
25:49the second
25:50half
25:50when Luka
25:50Modric
25:51and Brozovic
25:52and Rakitic
25:53got on the
25:53ball
25:53but realistically
25:55when they
25:55did they
25:55were going
25:56to be
25:56better on
25:56the ball
25:57than
25:57England
25:57this was
25:58against
25:59an
25:59Argentina
26:00team
26:00whose
26:00flaws
26:01we saw
26:01a bit
26:02against
26:02Spain
26:02when England
26:03had a
26:04lead
26:04this was
26:05the one
26:05that really
26:05could have
26:08be the
26:08only
26:09World Cup
26:09when England
26:10have both
26:11Kane and
26:11Bellingham
26:12at their
26:12peak
26:12and even
26:14though England
26:14do produce
26:15a lot
26:15of players
26:17as with
26:17most countries
26:18you don't
26:18have an
26:19equal
26:19distribution
26:19of them
26:20around
26:20the pitch
26:21so in
26:22four years
26:23time
26:24they might
26:24not get
26:25the chance
26:25again
26:26and it
26:26might end
26:26up being
26:27England's
26:27best chance
26:28for a long
26:29time to
26:29reach a
26:29World Cup
26:30final
26:30and so I
26:31think
26:32yeah a bit
26:32of a missed
26:32opportunity
26:33as a tournament
26:34rather than
26:34something to
26:35celebrate
26:36yeah I
26:36completely agree
26:37with that
26:38I mean it
26:38was my
26:38feeling
26:38there's been
26:39a bit
26:40doing the
26:40rounds now
26:40about what
26:41are people
26:41complaining
26:41about Tuchel
26:42he's got
26:42Tuchel's got
26:43as you say
26:43statistically
26:44the second
26:45best English
26:46World Cup
26:46of all time
26:46but he
26:47wasn't
26:48he wasn't
26:49employed to
26:49do that
26:50like it's
26:50a bit too
26:51easy for
26:51forgotten
26:52the parameters
26:54by Tuchel
26:55himself
26:55and by the
26:56FA were to
26:57win
26:57to go
26:58the distance
26:59because I
27:00mean like
27:00getting to a
27:00semi-final
27:01isn't new
27:01anymore
27:02this was
27:02England's
27:02fourth in
27:03five
27:03tournaments
27:03and he
27:04didn't
27:05and that's
27:05why I
27:05think
27:05there's a
27:07bit of
27:07an unwarranted
27:08glow
27:09because England
27:09most of the
27:11resources are
27:12all there
27:12now
27:12there's a
27:13final piece
27:14missing
27:14that Tuchel
27:14was supposed
27:15to represent
27:15and he
27:17evidently
27:17wasn't that
27:19and I do
27:19agree with
27:19you
27:19I mean
27:20look
27:20they mightn't
27:21have beaten
27:22Spain in
27:22the final
27:23but it'd be
27:24nice to have
27:24the chance
27:25and also
27:26it's a final
27:27it's a one-off
27:27look how close
27:28what was
27:29ultimately
27:29a dysfunctional
27:31and tired
27:31Argentina game
27:32to actually
27:34forcing penalties
27:36or maybe
27:36a bit more
27:37but actually
27:38just one
27:38final point
27:39on Spain
27:39one thing
27:40that really
27:41stood out
27:41for me
27:41from their
27:41overall
27:42performance
27:42was
27:43there was
27:43a few
27:44moments
27:44in that
27:44game
27:44where
27:45suddenly
27:45obviously
27:46they're
27:46dominating
27:46most of it
27:47and suddenly
27:47the ball
27:47breaks up
27:48there's a
27:49player running
27:49through
27:51and there's
27:52a weird
27:52thing in those
27:52situations
27:53that we used
27:53to see in
27:54Spanish teams
27:54in the past
27:55and we've
27:55even seen
27:55in Pep Guardiola
27:56teams where
27:56because they're
27:57so dominant
27:59one simple
27:59break
28:00and sometimes
28:00expose a
28:01glass jaw
28:02and create
28:02panic
28:04with this
28:04that didn't
28:05happen at
28:05all for
28:06Spain
28:06they were
28:07so calm
28:08I think
28:09which speaks
28:09to that
28:09approach
28:10I mean
28:10look it's
28:11a difference
28:11where in
28:12contrast to
28:12the 2010
28:13final
28:13when it's
28:14Arjen Robben
28:15whirling through
28:16on goal
28:16rather than
28:17Simeone
28:17but I think
28:18it again
28:19speaks to
28:20what the
28:21Spanish side
28:22were
28:22in terms
28:23of
28:24speaking to
28:25this idea
28:26that has
28:26ultimately won
28:27it and
28:27feels above
28:28the rest of
28:28the game
28:29in this
28:29competition
28:29but just
28:30I suppose
28:31to maybe
28:31to finish
28:32up then
28:33as we're
28:34speaking on
28:35this podcast
28:36I can obviously
28:37see myself
28:38on the screen
28:38I can see
28:39my sunburn
28:39which is
28:40a direct
28:41consequence
28:42of FIFA
28:44and the
28:45US Secret
28:45Service
28:46because we
28:47were made
28:48to wait
28:48out
28:48in a queue
28:50of two and a half
28:51hours
28:51I understand
28:52it was the
28:52same for fans
28:53because Secret
28:53Service had to
28:54check everyone
28:55going in
28:55it didn't feel
28:56very well prepared
28:56it did create
28:58I think for a lot
28:59of media
28:59and for fans
29:00from what I'm
29:00told who went
29:01it soured the
29:02experience initially
29:03a bit
29:03maybe to fit
29:04with the game
29:04and yet
29:06that still
29:07was not as
29:08bad an experience
29:09as that Justin
29:10Beaver song
29:10at half time
29:11the really slow
29:12one
29:12in that
29:13awful
29:14half time
29:14show
29:15which I think
29:15is an
29:16anti-football
29:16abomination
29:18leaving aside
29:19the game
29:19what was your
29:20general experience
29:21or your general
29:22feeling of
29:22the day
29:24Rich
29:25well I felt
29:26it was probably
29:27the worst
29:28organised game
29:29I've ever been
29:30at in terms
29:31of my own
29:32personal experience
29:33and I've
29:33covered over
29:342000 matches
29:35plus a few
29:36in one or two
29:37other sports
29:37and some of
29:39that clearly
29:40is down to
29:40the US
29:41Secret Service
29:42some of that
29:43is due to
29:43FIFA
29:44some of that
29:45is down to
29:46the absolute
29:46chaos at the
29:47ground which
29:48may or may
29:49not be
29:50the consequence
29:51of the MetLife
29:52staff
29:52may or may
29:53not be the
29:53consequence
29:54of whoever's
29:55doing whatever
29:55things and
29:57there were
29:57lots of
29:58things that
29:58did not
29:59work today
29:59I mean
30:00clearly one
30:01of the
30:01things that
30:01should be
30:02set in
30:03stone is
30:03if Donald
30:04Trump is
30:04going to
30:04delay everyone
30:05by two
30:06hours he
30:06shouldn't be
30:07there it's
30:07as simple
30:08as that
30:08and there
30:09were other
30:10political leaders
30:11there Mark
30:11Carney was
30:12there Cloudy
30:13Scheinbaum
30:13was there as
30:14far as we're
30:15aware Secret
30:16Service didn't
30:17really care what
30:17happened to
30:18any of them
30:18but you know
30:19when you've
30:20got 80,000
30:20people at a
30:21ground being
30:22delayed for
30:23two hours because
30:24of a man who
30:24isn't very
30:25interested in
30:25football at
30:26all and who
30:26just wants a
30:27photo opportunity
30:28he should not
30:29be there this
30:31World Cup I
30:32don't I think a
30:33lot of it has
30:34not been well
30:34organized at
30:36various host
30:36venues you and
30:38I have rarely
30:38been in the same
30:39place at the
30:39same time so
30:40your experiences
30:41might have been
30:42different to mine
30:42or similar but
30:44just in different
30:44places a lot of
30:46it has not been
30:46well organized
30:47FIFA have not
30:48been competent in
30:49a lot of things
30:50in this instance
30:51it did feel as a
30:53secret service with
30:54the initial
30:54cause but it
30:55was then
30:56compounded by
30:57FIFA getting a
30:57lot of things
30:58wrong and it
30:59did feel as
31:00though even
31:00though they'd
31:01had four years
31:01to prepare for
31:02a World Cup
31:02final they were
31:03not prepared at
31:04all really some
31:06really basic
31:06things went
31:07wrong from a
31:09media perspective
31:10I presume they
31:11did from a lot
31:11of other people's
31:12perspectives the
31:14halftime show was
31:16just rubbish it
31:17was absolute
31:18rubbish I think
31:18Wayne Rooney's
31:19review on the
31:20BBC was probably
31:21quite succinct
31:24like a lot of
31:24things like the
31:25hydration breaks
31:27we shouldn't be
31:28there in the
31:28future it's not
31:29what the game is
31:30about the game
31:31we haven't come to
31:32see the halftime
31:33show we haven't
31:34come to see the
31:34millions of
31:35celebrities in the
31:36crowd we haven't
31:37come to see the
31:37big screen panning
31:38to them we
31:39haven't come to
31:40see Trump or
31:40Infantino we've
31:42come to see the
31:42football FIFA needs
31:44to remember that
31:44FIFA needs a
31:46moral reboot
31:46part of the
31:47problem is so
31:48does the United
31:49States because if
31:50this World Cup have
31:51been held anywhere
31:51else there would
31:52have been less
31:53celebrities but
31:54there would have
31:55been also less
31:55celebrities appearing
31:56on the big screen
31:57and maybe if this
31:58World Cup had been
31:59held somewhere else
32:00we wouldn't have
32:00had Justin Bieber
32:01to begin with so
32:03this is clearly my
32:04argument to go back
32:04to Qatar if it gets
32:06rid of Justin Bieber
32:08I mean just in a
32:10very simple
32:11illustration that I
32:12think there was one
32:12moment in the game
32:13where something
32:14happened and I
32:15wanted to see a
32:16replay because there
32:17were actually many
32:17replay screens but
32:18one of the good
32:19things about American
32:20stadiums is they have
32:20massive screens
32:21everywhere and I
32:22thought okay let's
32:23look up at the
32:23screen and see
32:24surely they'll show
32:25this moment no
32:25they're showing Tom
32:26Cruz or someone and
32:28it just was true out
32:29although one of my
32:30favourite moments of
32:30the day was when Tom
32:31Cruz was inexplicably
32:33doing some speech on
32:35the pitch and the
32:36Argentina fans just
32:36started singing over
32:37him but just like in
32:39terms of the
32:40organisation an
32:41impression I had it
32:43was a bit too of an
32:43unwieldy World Cup
32:44which was actually
32:45almost kind of
32:47symbolised in the
32:48massive distances that
32:49certain stadiums were
32:50outside stadiums or
32:52outside cities like
32:53Boston being an
32:54illustration it was
32:55always felt such a
32:56blessing when a
32:57stadium was actually
32:57downtown when you
32:58could walk to it
32:59and it was better for
33:00the atmosphere like
33:01Atlanta ended up being
33:02one of my favourite
33:03places because of that
33:04I think you were
33:04similar with Seattle
33:05and connected to that
33:07as well it was just
33:09too long like I mean
33:11stuff like Scotland
33:12against Brazil
33:12that was at the game
33:13that feels like it was
33:14in a different tournament
33:14and that does actually
33:16starts to kind of erode
33:18what is one of the
33:19great things about
33:20an international
33:20tournament and World
33:21Cups is like it's
33:22self-contained nature
33:23where suddenly if it's
33:24kind of stretching and
33:26spreading out it doesn't
33:26feel like and someone
33:27made this point to me
33:28today that that game
33:30given Spain were not
33:31the best given
33:31Argentina obviously
33:32weren't that was
33:33actually arguably an
33:34illustration that an
33:36eighth game is one
33:37game too long in the
33:38same way this stretch
33:39into over five weeks
33:40is a week too long for
33:42an international
33:43tournament
33:43yeah I'd agree on
33:45quite a lot of that
33:46I mean I think the
33:4748 team format I think
33:51we're stuck with it
33:51unless they raise it
33:52to 64 which looks
33:53likely I think a lot
33:55of the what might be
33:57termed the extra 16
33:58countries provided some
34:01of the colour and some
34:02of the flavour in the
34:03early stages but
34:05ultimately there just
34:05wasn't enough jeopardy
34:07in the group stage at
34:07all I mean to refer to
34:09Scotland I mean I did
34:11Scotland's win over
34:12Haiti and the atmosphere
34:13was incredible and the
34:14Scotland fans were
34:15brilliant but go back
34:17to the group stages
34:18four years ago and
34:19they were better
34:19because they had that
34:20jeopardy of good teams
34:21either getting knocked
34:22out or potentially
34:23getting knocked out
34:25in terms of what
34:26you're talking about
34:26of like venues I
34:28mean I agree I mean
34:29I didn't actually get
34:30to Seattle in this
34:31one but I went to
34:32Toronto where it was
34:33a downtown stadium
34:34and that was that was
34:37one of my favourite
34:38games in part because
34:39Toronto is a great
34:40city and it was a
34:41good game but also
34:42just the location
34:43everything felt
34:44perfect about that
34:45and it seemed to me
34:46that when FIFA and
34:48presumably the
34:50Americans picked
34:51their host cities
34:52they didn't consider
34:53any of this they
34:54didn't consider some
34:55of the basics Boston
34:57would have been a
34:57perfect host city if
34:59the ground had been
35:00in Boston it wasn't
35:01remotely near Boston
35:03it's near a Providence
35:04so it felt like I
35:06think only three
35:07possibly US grounds
35:09were anything remotely
35:10city central which I
35:11would say Seattle
35:12Atlanta Philadelphia
35:14one of the great
35:15missed opportunities
35:17was to not have the
35:19World Cup in Chicago
35:20where Soldier Field is
35:22right by Lake Michigan
35:23near the city centre
35:24and instead Kansas City
35:26they tried but the
35:27ground is nowhere near
35:28the centre of Kansas
35:29City the place has no
35:30infrastructure you and
35:32I both went to Dallas
35:33that ground's not in
35:35Dallas it's not
35:36particularly near Dallas
35:37and I think Miami was
35:39even worse and this
35:41this does tap into
35:42some fundamental
35:43American issues with
35:44public transport which
35:46is even more important
35:47in an international
35:48tournament but some of
35:50the logistics of it
35:51didn't work and yes
35:53the tournament ultimately
35:54was too long I would
35:56rather go back to a
35:5732 team one it won't
35:59happen yeah basically
36:01because that means
36:01losing political votes
36:02I mean and in that
36:03context I think if you've
36:05got 48 you may as well
36:06have 64 because it
36:07would be the same
36:07lengths and it's also
36:08cleaner well I think
36:09you've touched on
36:10something there as well
36:11which is almost one of
36:11my main impressions and
36:12I can feel and this
36:13like it evolves from the
36:15fan experience and look
36:16we should stress
36:17elements of the US are
36:19great we're saying this
36:20as people who actually
36:20enjoy coming to the
36:22country I obviously
36:22especially love New York
36:24among other cities it's
36:26I suppose it's how the
36:27fan experience or in our
36:29case the journalist
36:29experience in attending
36:30was just made needlessly
36:32kind of difficult at
36:33time and some of that
36:34from thief organizations
36:34some of that from general
36:35logistics and how US
36:37society is constructed
36:38and the classic being
36:40most of America you need
36:42a car and you're
36:43inviting to the world to
36:45your event here where
36:46they can't have a car and
36:48there wasn't enough put on
36:49to get around that and
36:51there's something else from
36:52that because I think
36:53that's that is a point of
36:56tension for the future
36:57because it does feel like
36:58FIFA are like essentially
37:00they're anchoring the car
37:01they're moving the center of
37:02the game away from the
37:04match going fan to
37:05something more I think
37:06that event that we were
37:07at spoke to in terms of
37:08like what it was an
37:09entertainment culture but
37:11also there have been so
37:11many I think troubling
37:13precedents from the World
37:14Cup that FIFA should
37:15notionally be trying to
37:17safeguard the game against
37:18and instead they're
37:19actually the ones to
37:19usher through one being
37:21obviously ticket prices
37:22another being this episode
37:24with Balogun which I think
37:25is that that could have
37:27real long-term
37:27repercussions in the way
37:28it potentially starts to
37:29erode the legitimacy of
37:31the sport as it's run and
37:33like open in this new
37:34world where decisions
37:36don't end with the
37:36referee and end with the
37:37kind of white lines of
37:38the pitch and then of
37:39course the half-time
37:40break which you know
37:41like literally breaks the
37:42rules of the sport and
37:43again it's FIFA pushing
37:45all this through.
37:45FIFA in many ways have
37:47had a terrible World
37:48Cup whilst also having an
37:49incredibly profitable
37:50World Cup it's done a lot
37:52of damage for their
37:53standing and yet it does
37:56feel and you're closer
37:58connected than I am with
37:59FIFA politics but it does
38:01feel as though Infantino
38:02will be comfortably
38:03re-elected and that
38:04whatever they want to do
38:06goes goes through but it
38:08was interesting the level
38:09of pushback from UEFA for
38:11instance on the UEFA
38:13statement about the
38:14Balogun ban I thought was
38:17that surprised me and it
38:19actually impressed me and
38:21it does feel as though
38:22there is a bit of a battle
38:23for the soul of the game
38:24going on and I'm not
38:26saying that UEFA were
38:27automatically the good
38:28guys but they're not as
38:29bad as FIFA and in terms
38:31of the whole ethos of a
38:32tournament I liked the
38:34ethos of Euro 2024 a lot
38:36more the ticket prices
38:39were a lot more
38:39reasonable there was a
38:41lot more there's a really
38:42good feel about around a
38:44lot of it Deutsche Bahn
38:45weren't perfect but on
38:47the other hand people
38:48could get in and out of
38:50stadia obviously Germany
38:52is a very different country
38:53to the United States and
38:54it's nowhere near as big
38:56but it I think FIFA could
38:59look at Euro 2024 and
39:01they ought to learn quite
39:02a lot I don't think
39:03they will I think they'd
39:04look at it and say we
39:05made far more money than
39:06that but Euro 2024 to me
39:10was a tournament I liked
39:12a lot more in terms of
39:14off the field I would say
39:15in terms of a general
39:17atmosphere in terms of the
39:18ethos behind it and this
39:22one I didn't like a lot of
39:24the off the field stuff at
39:25all as you say diverging
39:28down different paths which
39:29is it feels like it's
39:31almost a theme for this
39:32tournament especially given
39:33how large the landmass is
39:36and on that I suppose we
39:37will bring our final show
39:40for this World Cup to a
39:42close we will be taking a
39:44break until the club season
39:46starts I think to be honest
39:47we actually we need a bit of
39:48a break ourselves it's been
39:49a long six weeks with a lot of
39:51travel but it's been a
39:54hugely enjoyable experience
39:55thanks especially doing this
39:57podcast and for an increasingly
39:59loyal audience of listeners
40:01so we thank you all for
40:03tuning in I hope you'll join
40:04us again soon I'll express my
40:07thanks to the entire
40:08independent team including
40:11Rich obviously producer Jamie
40:12all the guys that have been on
40:14it the entire independent
40:15backroom staff and the wider
40:16team and yeah thank you for
40:19listening to us it is part of the
40:20wider independent podcast
40:22network and once again thank
40:24you thanks for enjoying this
40:26World Cup with us and
40:27occasionally complaining about
40:29the two sides of the tournament
40:30and one final word to go
40:32thank you