- 1 day ago
As AI redefines the work of software engineers, a new crop of companies is getting in on the action. The CEO of vibe-coding startup Emergent joins Business Insider's Dan DeFrancesco for a live Q&A to discuss his company's explosive growth. Mukund Jha will also share what he looks for when hiring software engineers, and how vibe coding is changing his industry.
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TechTranscript
00:01Hey, good morning, good afternoon, good evening, wherever you're joining us from.
00:05Thanks for being here.
00:06I'm Dan DeFrancesco, lead writer for the Business Insider Today newsletter.
00:11There's no better example of the transformative power of AI than the rise of vibe coding.
00:16AI-powered tools allow non-technical people to quickly turn their ideas into apps,
00:22and that's upended the tech world.
00:24It's made coding accessible to everyone, and it's raised questions about the future of engineers,
00:29and, honestly, the wider software industry.
00:31The vibe coding startup Emergent sits at the center of this conversation,
00:36and the company prides itself on helping people and small businesses create these ready-to-use applications with autonomous AI
00:43agents.
00:44And Emergent says more than 12 million apps have been built on its platform over the past year,
00:50and that's despite 70% of its users having no coding experience.
00:54The startup itself is also growing at an incredible rate.
00:58This morning, it announced $130 million Series C, valuing it at $1.5 billion.
01:05That places it at unicorn status just a year after its public launch, which is pretty good.
01:11My daughter couldn't even walk it a year.
01:12So I'm happy to have Emergent CEO and co-founder Makhon Jha joining me today from India
01:18to talk about the new fundraise and vibe coding's impact on the world.
01:22Makhon, thanks so much for joining me.
01:25Thank you for having me. Super excited to be here.
01:27Yeah. So before we get into it, just a reminder for all of you tuning in, we'd love to hear
01:32your questions.
01:32We got a bunch of good ones here, but, you know, feel free to drop them in the comments.
01:36Definitely don't be bashful.
01:37So Makhon, let's just, I think it's important to set the stage.
01:41$7 million seed round roughly a year ago, a $23 million Series A last October,
01:48a $70 million Series B in January that puts you at a $300 million valuation,
01:54and now $130 million fundraise that puts you at a $1.5 billion valuation.
02:00Quite the 12 months.
02:02Talk us through a little bit about how this round came together so quickly.
02:07Because I know while you announced it today, it actually closed in late May.
02:10So that's a pretty quick turnaround between January and late May.
02:15Yeah, it's been really exciting to build in this frontier AI world right now.
02:19And I think what we are seeing right now is that there is this latent demand in the market where
02:24a lot of builders are coming online and building software for themselves.
02:28These are small business owners, entrepreneurs who traditionally haven't had access to, you know, technology or IT teams to sort
02:35of really help them build this software.
02:36And we are riding on the back of this, you know, massive wave right now.
02:40And essentially Emergent is a platform that allows, you know, business owners to build production-grade software that they can
02:45actually run their business on top of.
02:46And a lot of the funding that happened recently came together because, you know, our sort of revenue and business
02:53has grown significantly since our last funding.
02:56We have almost grown in 4X since December and both in revenue users.
03:02Our economics have improved and the success rate on the platform is really high.
03:06And we're also seeing this, we started the business with this thesis that non-technical builders will eventually be able
03:11to build production-grade software that they can run their business on.
03:14And that's something that we're seeing live on our data and shaping up.
03:17And it's also about the excitement of this, you know, new generation of builders coming online.
03:22And we think it's a massive market, probably one of the largest TAM, you know, in the AI space right
03:27now.
03:27And currently we are one of the, you know, leading clients in the market, which allows people to actually build
03:33production-grade applications.
03:33Yeah. So that amount of money, right, $130 million, obviously it's a lot.
03:40What's the plan with the funding? New, more hiring, new products, new strategic initiatives?
03:45What's the goal now, now that you have this bigger chunk of change?
03:50Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, most of the funding is going to be used towards building our team
03:55out and also our product and research development.
03:58We think that, you know, we're barely scratching the surface of what is possible with the software development, agent development
04:03across the board.
04:04We're also, you know, our long-term vision is to become this operating system for small businesses to help them
04:10become AI-native.
04:11So we're going to push towards that vision, bring more and more agents that can actually do, you know, business
04:16operations for our users.
04:19We're also going to spend on accelerating our GTM efforts.
04:22Currently we are live in 190 countries.
04:25You know, most of our revenue comes, you know, is actually evenly distributed from North America, Europe, Asia, one-third
04:32in all these three regions.
04:34So we're going to, you know, go deeper into these regions and accelerate our product development.
04:39Now, you mentioned the crazy growth that you guys have had since the January raise.
04:45It's also just in the general for Vibe Coding startups has been a really hot market.
04:51You know, I believe, if my timing is correct, that in between the January raise and this most recent raise,
04:56it was also Cursor had entered into the partnership with SpaceX for $60 billion.
05:00Does that impact your approach to this raise?
05:05Does that cause like a re-evaluation of your own valuation?
05:07I imagine it's kind of a rise and tide raises all ships, but you tell me.
05:13I mean, I think most of our raises is on the business fundamentals of ours and also the market opportunity
05:18that we are going after.
05:19And of course, I think there's a lot of excitement in AI right now.
05:22Cursor is largely building for technical audience.
05:25We are largely building for non-developers.
05:27And so we're in different markets and both of these markets are growing extremely rapidly right now.
05:32And if you look at like, you know, where the AI has had the most impact right now, coding is
05:36one of the largest vertical where we are seeing growth right now.
05:39And fundamentally, it's an unlock that has never existed before, like where, you know, small businesses, owners, domain experts who
05:46are actually really close to the problem, understand their domain really well, are able to now build and deploy and
05:51run these softwares, you know, without going to a, you know, dev shop or having a technical team.
05:57So that's sort of what we're seeing right now.
05:59Sure. So yeah, you mentioned your focus largely on the individuals, the small businesses.
06:05Is that a path that you want to continue on?
06:08Do you feel like that is your real sweet spot?
06:10Is there opportunity or an interest to go a little bit bigger to go after the larger clients?
06:16Or do you feel like where you can make the most impact and really the future of emerging is with
06:21the smaller players?
06:24Yeah, I think, you know, we have found a really good product market fit with small and medium businesses.
06:28That's where we are focused on right now.
06:31And if you look at, you know, small businesses account for 50% of global economy, account for 70%
06:36of employment, and traditionally have sort of been left out from this whole SaaS era.
06:41And we believe that they're going to be the ones, you know, who are going to jump on the AI
06:44era, you know, much sooner.
06:46And even in the adoption rate, we're seeing small businesses adopt us, you know, much faster.
06:51And we would want to go deeper into this market and really, really build for this audience because their needs
06:56are very different.
06:57They are focused on, you know, growing their business.
06:59You know, the technical know-how is limited.
07:02And we think that we can really, really build and help this audience get and become AI native across the
07:08globe.
07:09Yeah.
07:10It's something we've written a lot about here at BI too.
07:12It feels like vibe coding is really the perfect fit for that market segment because you look at big enterprises.
07:17There's so many hoops that you need to jump through and just to kind of vibe code up a new
07:21CRM.
07:22That's a big hurdle versus a small business, a small team.
07:25It's perfect to, you know, leverage vibe coding, leverage a product like yourself, and be able to kind of spin
07:29something out quickly.
07:32Totally, totally.
07:33I think, and that's what we're seeing in the data as well, right, in sort of our, when we look
07:37at our customers, most of them are actually small businesses.
07:39You know, from, you know, a factory owner in Australia to, you know, a roofing agency in Ohio to a
07:47car dealership in Florida.
07:49I think what we're seeing essentially is these are business owners who are savvy, who really, really understand their domain
07:54really well, understand the problem that they're trying to solve.
07:57And, you know, historically haven't had the means to, you know, either go hire a developer or build a team.
08:03And are now able to sort of really build these production-grade applications, you know, on a platform like ours.
08:08What is also exciting is that these users are like extremely business savvy, so they understand, you know, what problem
08:13they want to solve.
08:14They have really good clarity on what is going to move the business for them, and purely want to focus
08:20on, you know, what is core to their business and allow a platform like ours to really help accelerate their
08:25journey.
08:26Yeah, so we have a question here from Joshua from Las Vegas that kind of says a little bit of
08:30the counter to that, and maybe you can speak to this.
08:32His opinion is that kind of the vast majority of a lot of this AI usage, the vibe coding, it's
08:37kind of more just building as opposed to actually creating value.
08:41And the people that are still creating actual value still remain in the minority, in his opinion.
08:46But I guess you guys are, you know, sit on the opposite end and are seeing the other side of
08:51that, correct?
08:53Yeah, I mean, I think it's still early, right?
08:54If you look at, you know, the success rate on most of these platforms are still low relative to what,
08:59you know, we expect, you know, in coming years to be.
09:02But we are seeing like very strong signs of people being able to, you know, build applications that they can
09:07use on a daily basis.
09:08We have more than 100,000 applications that are live right now in production, which get daily traffic, which have
09:14daily usage.
09:14Some of them, you know, customer facing, you know, commerce marketplace kind of sites.
09:18Some of them are internal facing, you know, invoice generators, you know, things like that.
09:23And people are building really complex business facing application, including CRMs, ERPs, dispatch system, inventory management system.
09:32So we are seeing, you know, a lot of these business owners creating value for themselves.
09:38And these are all translating into real revenue for them.
09:40These are all translating into real cost saving for them.
09:43When we talk about the value, a topic that's come up a lot recently has been the economics of AI,
09:48right?
09:48And tokens usage.
09:50And, you know, we had the token maxing and now token anti-maxing.
09:53It's something that I'm sure your users are very well aware of and you yourself as a business, right?
09:59Because you work with all of these platforms are well aware of.
10:01I guess, how do you manage the AI economics and the fact of these rising token prices and protect against
10:07when maybe one of the partners that you're working with, their token prices spike a lot and cost a lot
10:12more?
10:14Right. So, I mean, I think it's an increasing concern right now.
10:17And what, again, like what we are seeing right now is that our users compare us to, you know, what
10:23would a development cost be if they had, you know, hired a developer or gone to a dev shop.
10:28And typically, we see, you know, a 10x to 50x difference.
10:31Like, so if you're building, let's say, a mobile application for your logistics network, you would probably cost anywhere between
10:37$100,000 to $500,000 to build that.
10:39On a margin, you can build it under, you know, $5,000. So, I think the price to value ratio
10:43is really, really low.
10:45And what we are essentially seeing is that users are comparing us to, you know, going to a dev shop,
10:50what would it cost?
10:51And traditionally, what has happened is that, you know, if let's say you go to a dev shop and build
10:56something out, there was a high risk involved because, you know, you don't know how the software is going to
11:00turn out.
11:01You don't know whether the specification, you know, is communicated correctly.
11:04And there is also a high price upfront. And we are, you know, bringing this down significantly for users to
11:11be able to take that, you know, risk and build it themselves and really see if there is a value.
11:16And so from that perspective, you know, like, even though token prices are going up, what's happening on the platform
11:22is people are able to build even more complex, more ambitious apps on the platform.
11:25And if you look at, like, you know, intelligence per dollar, you know, that actually has been going up significantly,
11:31you know, ever since GPT-4 launched.
11:34And what it is translating in for users is they are able to build, you know, better apps, you know,
11:39more complex applications.
11:41But at the same time, you know, like I think now for the first time, I think open source models
11:45have caught up to an extent where we can use them for complex coding applications.
11:50And we expect that, you know, you know, some mixture of frontier plus open source is going to be the
11:56future where, you know, the platform stays affordable for people.
11:59Yep. I want to take a step back. We've done a great job, the great coding reset, looking at just
12:05the overall impact that Vibe Coding is having on the entire tech industry.
12:08I know you've spoken about that as well. Let's just start, you know, very direct. Like, Vibe Coding's impact is
12:14pretty impactful to the engineers themselves, right?
12:18What would you, you know, starting off specifically with younger engineers, what would you say to a younger engineer that
12:23maybe is getting a little bit nervous about Vibe Coding and, you know, these non-technical people, the people that
12:27you're targeting are able to do a lot of the work that they're maybe going to school or just came
12:31out of school to try to, you know, work?
12:36Yeah, I mean, I think fundamentally we believe that the demand for software is going to exponentially increase.
12:41And as things get cheaper, you know, Jefferson's paradox that the demand for that is going to, you know, keep
12:45increasing.
12:47And especially I think, you know, like we don't see this as a competition with developers. We see this, you
12:51know, a new class of builders coming online.
12:53And our belief is that, you know, the need for automation, the need for software generation is going to rise.
12:59What I would recommend to, you know, like people who are just starting out is to really, really, you know,
13:04get AI built and use AI as much as possible.
13:06Because we're seeing this internally. There are like few people, you know, in the org who use AI really, really
13:10well and their output are 10x more than, you know, people who are just learning out.
13:15So I think learning this new technology, learning how to work with agents, learning how to sort of, you know,
13:20what are the characteristics of different models, which is good and what.
13:23I think jumping on that bad wagon is really, really important.
13:27And I do think that, you know, a lot of the roles are merging now. For example, you know, our
13:31designers actually write code.
13:32Our engineers now do designing, you know, our PMs are able to ship a feature themselves.
13:38And what we are seeing is that more of these roles are getting elevated.
13:41So where, you know, a single person is able to do, you know, a work of multiple experts now.
13:46And we think that that trend is going to continue.
13:48And I think, you know, the future from the perspective of employment and other things, there's definitely some uncertainty.
13:54But I think in short term, like, I feel that, you know, the demand for engineers, demand for, you know,
14:00people who design well,
14:01people who can build products is actually going to go up.
14:05Because of that melding of roles like you're talking about, do you see, for someone that is maybe starting school
14:11in the fall
14:11or already in the middle of school, do you see less value in pursuing, like, the traditional kind of, like,
14:17software engineering degree?
14:18Or do you still think that is important?
14:23Yeah, I mean, fundamentally, I'm a computer science major.
14:26So, fundamentally, I think engineering and some of these disciplines, like, really teach you problem solving really well.
14:31And I think it doesn't matter, like, whether you're learning mechanical or electronics or computers.
14:37And maybe the, you know, the exact knowledge or skill might still, you know, get, you know, older.
14:44But I think what's really important is people learning how to solve problem, how to sort of decode, you know,
14:48a problem.
14:49I think, generally, I think those basic first principles are really, really important to learn.
14:54And I wouldn't say that, okay, you know, like, we should abandon education, everything is going to be solved by
14:59AI.
14:59I think learning that fundamental problem solving skill collaboration is really, really important.
15:04And that's what, like, I feel like colleges are about.
15:06Sure.
15:07The, you talk about how, like, in the short term, but longer term, I know it's so tough because, as
15:13we talked about in the Great Coding Reset,
15:15it's literally, like, end of last year, January, all of a sudden, you know, a couple models came out and
15:19everything flipped.
15:20What's the long-term impact that you, maybe, if you could look into your crystal ball that you think Vibe
15:25Coding will ultimately have on hiring or the job market, specifically in tech?
15:31Yeah, I mean, we think that, you know, there'll be a lot of micro entrepreneurs who will come online.
15:35And, you know, people who have specific skills, people who, you know, have specific interest areas, they're going to be
15:41able to pursue that.
15:43If you sort of really project the arc out and, you know, AGI happens and everything becomes, you know, cheap.
15:48At that point, I do think, you know, like, we'll need some sort of universal basic income, some of those
15:53things.
15:53But at that time, like, you know, we'll free up people to, you know, do more stuff that they like.
15:58I also think that fundamentally, like, you know, imagine software gets solved.
16:01I think we'll move on to the bigger problems.
16:03For example, you know, solving quantum, solving, you know, drug discovery, health, you know, fundamental of science and mathematics.
16:09And I think the human curiosity and the problem solving need of, you know, solving for the universe is going
16:17to be constant.
16:18And I think we'll keep evolving to the next set of problems, which are harder and harder to solve.
16:22You mentioned with this funding that you're going to look to continue to grow the team.
16:26If someone's watching there, really wants to work for Emergent, obviously, fast growing company, what are you looking for in
16:32an engineer right now?
16:35Yeah, so we are looking for people who are, like, really, really curious about problem solving and are able to
16:40sort of think from the first principle, you know, on problem solving.
16:44Also, people who are, like, really, really hungry to make an impact.
16:47Generally, like, engineers also at Emergent own a business metric, own a customer metric.
16:52And so, like, looking for people who are, like, really, really, you know, hard-charging, hungry, and looking for impact.
16:58Mm-hmm. You know, I know that you spent time in big tech.
17:03Some of your co-founders have spent time in big tech.
17:06What's the Vibe coding impact that you see on that side of the industry?
17:10You know, we've already, like, we talked about the SpaceX cursor deal, you know, as a partnership.
17:14And now they confirmed they're going to acquire them.
17:16I know it's not finalized yet.
17:17But how do you see them adjusting to this rise of Vibe coding?
17:22So I think the impact of coding agencies across the board, like, for developers, obviously, it has sped up their
17:27cycles
17:28of, you know, like, product releases.
17:32And we are seeing this internally as well.
17:34Like, you know, the Pace app which we are able to ship right now, like, 95% of our code
17:36is written by agents now.
17:38So I think there is a massive acceleration that is happening there.
17:41And what is even more encouraging is essentially, you know, if you look at, like, any organization,
17:47they have always been bottlenecked on engineering bandwidth.
17:49Like, they always want to ship more, you know, and if you look at any roadmap, people only get 30%,
17:5340% of that done.
17:54And I think what tools like Emergent is enabling that the last person, you know, who is closest to the
17:59problem
17:59is actually able to solve the problem now.
18:01Like, imagine a customer support guy who's actually, you know, building a customer support tool internally.
18:06For example, inside Emergent, all of our internal tools are built on Emergent.
18:09In fact, our customer support, you know, representatives are the ones who are building the customer support tool.
18:16Our CRMs are built by our marketing teams.
18:18We have a hiring agent that actually has been built by our recruitment team.
18:22And so we see this, you know, massive empowerment happening across all the departments
18:26where they'll be able to build their own technology, they'll be able to build their own, you know, agents.
18:31And fundamentally, that's an unlock because, you know, people who are close to the problem
18:34who understand the domain really well will now be able to, you know, experiment quickly,
18:38build solutions that they need, and eventually sort of accelerate the whole, you know, economy.
18:42I love it. Emergent built on Emergent, right?
18:44What's a better advertisement than that?
18:46Well, that was going to be one of my questions is, you know, besides obviously your own products,
18:50any, maybe you don't want to give any free ads, but any AI tools that you're a really big fan
18:54of,
18:54either in the professional side or on the personal side?
18:57I mean, I use Cloud Code a lot internally, you know, as a developer.
19:02And I also use real-time voice on ChatGPT also.
19:07And one of the things that I use a lot right now is our own open cloud version,
19:11which is called Wingman.
19:12And I use it to schedule all my meetings.
19:14It sends me daily briefing.
19:16I think once you have, once you get used to an always-on AI assistant,
19:19it's very hard to sort of turn that off.
19:21That's, I think, one of the most exciting trends that we are seeing right now.
19:24Well, I appreciate you didn't send your agent today and that it's actually you in person,
19:28because, you know, we get the room in front.
19:29Hopefully next time.
19:32You mentioned before, I think you spoke to one of our reporters about how, like,
19:35you compared it to Bitcoin at $1.
19:36This is like the very early innings.
19:38It's a very frantic pace as well.
19:40It feels like eventually there will be a little bit of a settling.
19:44Not necessarily a come down, but a settling.
19:46How do you see that playing out?
19:47There's so many startups in the space.
19:49Is there going to be consolidation?
19:50Do you think some of those big tech, like we've seen with SpaceX,
19:52are going to scoop up some of these players?
19:54How does this all shake out?
19:56And how soon do you think that'll start happening?
20:00I mean, it's hard to say right now.
20:01I think the market is growing really fast,
20:03faster than all of us can serve in a combined way right now.
20:05So, you know, you can see every single AI company's revenue is growing at a fast pace.
20:11And I think eventually, like, companies which are closest to their users,
20:16are able to, you know, serve them well, are going to win.
20:18And that's sort of our focus, to make sure that we are close to the user,
20:21we actually understand the needs really well,
20:23and build very, very deeply for the outcomes that they want versus, you know,
20:27just a tool.
20:29And, of course, I think there's a lot of euphoria, excitement, you know,
20:32with, you know, some of the labs going public as well.
20:36Hard to say, you know, when consolidation happens, what the shape is.
20:40But we are building for the long term, and we're excited about what we're building.
20:42Sure.
20:43You know, one of the interesting things about Emergent, about you is,
20:46you also work with your identical twin, right?
20:49So, what's that like?
20:50I mean, the old adage, right, you never mix business and family,
20:53but it's clearly working pretty well for Emergent.
20:56What's it like, you know, co-founding a company with your twin brother?
21:00Yeah, we've been meaning to build something together for a really long time.
21:03We actually started programming together when we were age 12.
21:07And both of us went to US to do our PhDs.
21:09I dropped out.
21:09He actually finished his PhD.
21:11And he has a research background in deep learning.
21:13So, you know, and I have an engineering background.
21:15So, I think, you know, we sort of complement each other really, really well.
21:18There are pros and cons.
21:20You know, pros is that, you know, we finish each other's sentences.
21:22You know, there is no communication overhead.
21:23There is, like, implicit trust.
21:25You can replace me or him in a room, and it'll almost be the same.
21:28But at the same time, like, we also think alike.
21:30So, you know, we need sort of more ideas.
21:33There is some sort of a group thinking that happens between us.
21:36And so far, like, he's in SF.
21:38I spend a lot of my time in India.
21:39So, there is, you know, good balance there.
21:43And it's fun to build, you know, with the twin.
21:46And, you know, but as we scale, we'll see, you know, how it goes.
21:49You mentioned switching, you know, you could switch places.
21:52Have you ever switched places?
21:53Has there ever been a meeting where you're like, I really don't want to take this?
21:56Let's do a little switcheroo here.
22:00No, no, not yet.
22:01We are not identical twins.
22:02If we were identical twins, like, that would have been really, really easy.
22:05In fact, like, you know, I would have loved for him to give all my exams.
22:09But, you know, we're not identical.
22:11But I think on online setting, we can probably do it.
22:13We sound exactly the same.
22:14So, maybe that's something I should try.
22:16Twins were the original autonomous AI agent, I think.
22:19That's the, you know, the first.
22:20That was day one.
22:22You know, besides, you've been at this for a while as far as starting
22:28companies, and specifically another incredibly successful company in India,
22:33Dunzo, you were a co-founder of, right?
22:36And it was massive in the country, reached some incredible heights,
22:39ultimately was shut down.
22:41But I'm curious what lessons or is there anything that stands out from your
22:44experience there that you've translated?
22:46I know very different, in some ways very similar, but in very different
22:49marketplaces and offerings.
22:51Anything that you've really taken away as far as your time at Dunzo and
22:54now folding into Emergent?
22:58Yeah, I think Dunzo was, you know, a very unique experience and very,
23:02very fulfilling in many ways.
23:03And, you know, we became one of the largest consumer phenomena in the
23:06country.
23:07One of the biggest trends with commerce, you know, was sort of started by us
23:11in the country.
23:13And the top learnings that I'm carrying forward, some of them are basic,
23:17you know, focus on users and making sure that you, you know, are always
23:22looking towards, you know, what is coming in the future from users'
23:25perspective.
23:26The biggest lesson that I'm taking away is essentially, you know, just doing
23:30things that actually work.
23:32At one point, like we were doing too many things at Dunzo and, you know,
23:35it was clear that there's one market trend, that there's a pull.
23:38And so we are very, very focused, as Emergent, on what is working and
23:41making sure that we are providing value to the user.
23:43And also, like, building for long-term sustainable growth, you know,
23:46where, you know, Unitecronics will work and capital efficiency is there
23:50in the company.
23:51So I appreciate you taking the time.
23:53Before we wrap up, last question I wanted to ask you.
23:55So Emergence writes all about people kind of taking their ideas and
23:59turning it into production-ready apps and software.
24:02So if you were building a company now, right, you know, 20 years ago,
24:06you're starting off, besides obviously working with Emergence,
24:09setting up an account, what's the first thing that you would do for
24:12an aspiring entrepreneur that wants to get in on this AI craze?
24:15It feels like vibe coding is the thing for them.
24:17What's step number one?
24:20I mean, I would say step number one is to, you know, build on,
24:23you know, a platform like ours and get used to, you know, what is it
24:26like to work with an agent?
24:27I think that's sort of the starting point.
24:29I feel that I was like, you know, opportunities everywhere right now
24:32and we are barely scratching the surface of, you know,
24:34what is going to happen with AI.
24:36Like you can look at any vertical field and say like, you know,
24:40if AI was doing this, if agents were doing this, how would this look
24:43like in fully automated way and build towards that?
24:47And we feel that, you know, like we are extremely early innings of AI,
24:51and then the progress is going to, you know, be exponential and will continue.
24:54Yeah, get on the roller coaster now.
24:56It's only going up.
24:57Well, listen, that's it for BI Live today.
25:00McCullen, thanks so much for being here and thanks to everyone for tuning in.
25:04Until next time.
25:25Bye.
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