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Flatpack forests - IKEA’s practices in the Carpathian Mountains
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TVTranskript
00:25So, this is an Ikea forest.
00:28Yeah, you can tell by the green panels, it's only them that uses this to warn people off that it's
00:35private property.
01:07I'm a journalist from Denmark.
01:09Documentary is about Ikea.
01:10Yeah.
01:13He said it's private land and we're not supposed to film.
01:32Oh, my God.
01:45Oh, my God.
01:48Oh, my God.
01:48Oh, my God.
01:49Oh, my God.
02:07Oh, my God.
02:19Oh, my God.
02:33Oh, my God.
03:03That was hot.
03:03You look in front of the camera.
03:07My name is Gabriel.
03:09I have university and post university degree in nature sciences.
03:13And I'm the founding member of Romanian environmental NGO, Agent Green.
03:23I'm sitting in the middle of a clear cut done by IKEA right after they bought it.
03:30The entire forest cover has been removed.
03:33So there is no more trees left.
03:35It's just one tree over there.
03:37And this is what they call FSC certified because they left the biotop tree.
03:42It's not sustainable forestry.
03:45And it's not sustainable product and furniture you are using right now if it comes from places like this.
03:55IKEA.
03:57We love wood.
03:59Ifølge IKEA selv er deres skovdrift ikke bare bæredygtig.
04:03Den er ligefrem med til at sikre fremtiden for de rumænske skove.
04:08We love wood because it is durable, renewable, recyclable and beautiful.
04:15Because we know that responsible forest management helps to combat climate change.
04:21We make a difference for the future of the forests and the people living around them.
04:29IKEA.
04:30IKEA.
04:37IKEA, at de gør en positiv forskel for de rumænske skoves fremtid.
04:42Men lokale miljøaktivister kritiserer IKEA for at gøre det stik modsatte.
04:48Spørgsmålet er, hvem der har ret?
04:51I'm going to find a variety of IKEA-scows with both activists and IKEA.
04:57And then I'm going to find out if there's a variety of resources or greenwashing.
05:19Europe, which used to be covered by tremendous amounts of forests, we have cut most of them down.
05:24This has repercussions on biodiversity, on carbon storage, on people, people's well-being.
05:31Companies like IKEA, they claim to be sustainable, have to actually ensure that they're meeting both the ecological, social and
05:38economic dimensions of sustainability.
05:53In the Carpater-bjerg, there is a hytte that works as an advanced research center.
05:59From here, there are researchers out for, as well, to investigate the very special biodiversity in the area.
06:05How are you doing?
06:07How are you doing?
06:09How are you doing?
06:11How are you doing?
06:14We try to do good things for the forest.
06:17I will say that Carpetians is one of the most beautiful mountains in the world.
06:24They have a very good balance in altitude and with forests.
06:29Very mild environment is not as harsh.
06:32Landforms, waters, lakes, waterfalls, vegetation, fauna.
06:39That was formed in the centuries.
06:44It's a way we need to destroy that very quickly now.
06:49This is why I set up a big group of Romania for all of the researchers who work in life
06:55science and earth science to try to collaborate together and to improve the things in Romania in order to protection
07:03and conservation environment, especially because we are facing a lot of problems.
07:08We are out here!
07:10Are we still here?
07:13We are environ 40emonbs.
07:16How are you doing 9000 tons?
07:20We have not yet!
07:21Where is 60 Scriptures?
07:22Gabriel Pound from Agent Green will show us several IKEA stalls on IKEA.
07:26Where are the streets of IKEA cloud?
07:28Not from here, I think.
07:29I think it was from the sun.
07:35It's better or for a bed for me.
07:40So, Gabi, where exactly are we now?
07:43We have the precise location here.
07:46The altitude is above 1,200.
07:58Here in Chibao, there are rocks up above the bjerg.
08:02We are just here at the bottom of the valley.
08:05And above us is these unbelievable clear cuts. Look at this.
08:10Unbelievable.
08:14One clear cut, one clear cut, one clear cut.
08:17And the roads are like highways.
08:20What I see here is just, you know, they want to take benefit from the forest.
08:25They saw this part of the terrain here like an economical target.
08:30It doesn't, nothing to do with, you know, cultural, environmental,
08:35and with protection and conservation.
08:37What we are seeing here is clear cut.
08:40It's complete removal of the entire forest habitat.
08:43And it's like permanent damage and destabilizing the slope
08:47and destabilizing the forest.
08:55What we are seeing here is that,
09:02Big corporations, including global company IKEA,
09:06have chosen to come in Romania,
09:09a country which is home and synonym with definition of corruption,
09:13and just have operations here.
09:17There is a blind or turning guy in all the chain,
09:21and at all levels in Romania that you can get away with it.
09:28There are trucks standing ready to load tomorrow.
09:32Yeah.
09:33Yeah, this is forest country.
09:35Yeah.
09:36I Romania is working on IKEA with the local skovindustri.
09:41And it's the Romanian authorities,
09:43who should hold an eye on,
09:44if the work of the skoes over holds the rules.
09:49But Romania has been in the place of the illegal skovhugs and corruption.
10:02The Romanian government has been in the province.
10:04He has seen a million public relief."
10:04The Romanian government believes that half of the trees,
10:06which are nullified in the country,
10:07will be found illegally.
10:12Can you get to the number?
10:13Yes, it's MM.
10:14And Romania's president has taken the problem to a national security question.
10:22I'm checking it in the app now.
10:24Yeah.
10:26Because of the illegality, the authorities have created a system,
10:30where all transports with trees should be registered.
10:33Right, it says it has transport permit issued at 1610.
10:39But the picture he put inside this, you can't see the full load of the tree.
10:45If you look at it, it's only half of the photo.
10:48The actual load is double than what's showing in the photos.
10:53He's saying that it's carrying 11.9 cubic meters.
10:57I think that's probably 15 to 20 cubic meters there.
11:04The illegal part of the tunnel industry,
11:07who protects the re-portation of their heritage,
11:10the illegal parts of the tunnel.
11:18And six people who were encouraged to control the soil,
11:21are being murdered.
11:23And no one has been punished for the murder.
11:43Tiberio Bosutar
11:54Tiberio Bosutar
11:55En oplevelse for nylig har fået ham til nu at tilkalde politiet hver eneste gang han går ud i skoven.
12:07I en skov ejet af et rumænsk firma blev Tiberio Bosutar overfaldet af skovarbejdere, bevægnet med kæppe og økser.
12:30Efter overfaldet blev han tvunget til at tage sit tøj af, mens skovarbejderne filmede ham.
12:56Ingen er blevet dømt for overfaldet på Tiberio Bosutar, men han fortsætter alligevel sit arbejde med at afsløre illegal skovdrift.
13:07Skoven her er statsaet. Et lokal tømmerfirma er i gang med at udføre arbejde, hvor de kun bør fælde de
13:14træer som myndighederne på forhånd har udparet.
13:19In România, in fiecare an, unde deja, undeva pe la începutul lunii blu-marte, se schimba culoarea mărce.
13:26Anul ăsta se folosește culoarea albastră.
13:28Deci noi avem un arbore care trebuia tæat, la cum arată, și și-o marca.
13:41Deci, det er ilegal, da?
13:45Da, asta!
13:49Look, he found one already.
13:50He found one there.
13:52No, no.
13:53So there's no blueprint on that one?
13:56No.
13:57This logging permit is for accidental sick trees or fallen down trees.
14:03This is a healthy tree that shouldn't have been caught.
14:05That's not sick.
14:06You can see that.
14:07Yeah, yeah.
14:09That one is illegal as well.
14:12The marking is missing.
14:15It's like Tiberius says 50-50.
14:1750-50.
14:18So 50% legal, 50% illegal.
14:24Who's this guy?
14:25The forester.
14:26The forester?
14:26The forester.
14:29Politiet har tillkaldt den lokale skovbetjet.
14:32Det är ham som förer tillsyn med skoven och ham der kan vurdera sagen.
14:51Are you afraid sometimes?
14:58Do you think you're afraid sometimes when you go to the park?
15:01Sure, you're afraid.
15:02Logically.
15:03Yes, he's afraid.
15:04I have cases when I go to the night, for example, at the 12 o'clock, I'm called to introduce
15:08myself or to hear some things.
15:26Gabriel Pound fra Agent Green har også märket de hårde metoder, som dele af den rumanske tømmerindustri benytter sig af.
15:33I didn't have the right vehicle or the right equipment and definitely no security measures taken.
15:42Gabriel Pound var på tur med udenlandske journalister for at undersøge en fældning i en statssejede skov.
15:49We arrived in a place where there was a billboard saying which company is doing what and say please stop
15:56for a second I want to take a picture of that.
15:59And they stayed in the car, I was out, and as I was taking the second picture, a forest vehicle
16:07with six big guys, double of my size, each of them.
16:19There was no conversation, they were coming very aggressive.
16:24I make a few step back trying to keep the distance to start the conversation.
16:33But they have not any intention to have a conversation.
16:41The perpetrators sawing my teammate in the car with a handy camera were screaming, kill them all, take that camera,
16:50and we will say it was self-defense.
16:55Oh my god, oh my god, oh my god, oh my god, oh my god, oh my god.
16:58When I heard that, I was happy they left.
17:04And Gabby.
17:11Mens det lykkedes for Gabriel Powns venner at flygte, er han selv ladt tilbage.
17:17They started to punch and kick, until they put me down, and even then they haven't stopped.
17:31I was trying to cover and protect my face, but they smashed my head behind, and broke all the ribs,
17:38here and here.
17:40And as I was not moving anymore, and they thought I'm dead, they left me.
17:51I have spent some years in psychotherapy to overcome that, because I started to have nightmares.
17:59It was the advice of the psychotherapists, just give up your plans to live in such a place in Romania,
18:05and just live elsewhere.
18:07And I've done that.
18:09I've, I've, I'm living now in a secret place where nobody knows, and nobody comes far away from my home
18:18country,
18:18because it's simply too dangerous for me to be here.
18:23I have to come clandestine all the time, and then make my visit very short.
18:27I have to come clandestine all the time.
18:57I have to come clandestine all the time.
19:14I have to come clandestine all the time.
19:15We're behind us?
19:15Yeah.
19:18I de skove IKEA ejer, er de afhængige af lokale firmaer, der står for at fælde og transportere træerne.
19:25Men hvordan lever IKEA op til deres eget ansvar, og til løftet om bæredygtig skovdrift?
19:40Gabriel Pown har taget os med til en skov i IKEA ejer, og som lokale tømmerfirmaer er i gang med
19:46at fælde for dem.
19:54Det er klært godt.
19:57Det er klært godt.
19:58Jeg føler at det er smag at se sådan et disarray.
20:06Indtil videre er der lavet fire rydninger, hvor samtlige træer er fjernet.
20:11Og ifølge IKEA's planer skal hele skoven fælles.
20:15Everything will be gone.
20:16At this wonderful, extremely mix forest with various species, including giant cherry trees,
20:24and oak trees, will be put down in a blink of an eye.
20:30Everything nature created in centuries will be put down.
20:43When you look at the way you drive the engine, and see how powerful the engine is,
20:49there are two different parameters.
20:52The one is about the big area of the engine.
20:57If you have a large, common area of the engine,
20:59then you call it clear cuts, which is called the engine.
21:01It is actually something that is written out of what you call the engine.
21:10In the opposite end, you have what you call the plug-cooks,
21:13where you have a large, small trees.
21:23Here at Suchawa has Gabriel Paul withbragt the engine, Dan Turica.
21:29Dan Turica worked earlier for the state of the skooks,
21:32and knows the Romanian regs in detail.
21:36In the sense that when we analyzed the surface on the ground,
21:41the zones with the area of the area were not separate,
21:44so that they were treated in a much more moderate way.
21:53At the surface of the engine, there were a large, large, large, large, large, large, large, large.
22:01They said there is no oak.
22:04But that is an oak, that's an oak, that's an oak, that's an oak,
22:08that's an oak all over.
22:09The oak is the dominant species.
22:14Here is another one.
22:18We can see that IKEA has tried to plant with egetræ.
22:23They tried to replante, but it definitely didn't prevail.
22:26I see the weeds prevailed, but the oak babies died.
22:30See, it's dead.
22:32You can't do clear cuts here, because you can't get the forest back.
22:36Because as soon as the sun is touching the ground, it will suck up the moisture,
22:41and baby trees like that won't be able to survive and become grown-up trees.
22:45I don't want to tell them that they have planted some other species.
22:52This doesn't look like a bæredygtig tree.
22:57It's just pure trees in a very classic sense,
23:01where you cut all trees without putting anything back to the area.
23:05Clear cuts is called in English, and it's not something that normally accepts
23:10within a certified skor drift.
23:12Very often, if you want to maximize economic profits,
23:16is that you cut them all down.
23:18Because clear cutting really means that you are taking away the entire forest cover,
23:23the entire trees of a particular area,
23:25and what is left behind is a moon landscape.
23:28From an economic perspective, the more you can take out of this hectare,
23:33the more money you will make at a particular instance.
23:53I would like to hear from IKEA to hear how they themselves look at their skov drift in Romania.
24:02All the hells will I have them to take with to the same skovermode,
24:05which the activists have shown up.
24:09So I contact IKEA and send them our reports from Romania.
24:20In the meantime, we're not letting you put together the products yourself,
24:34because we're lazy. It's actually the other way around.
24:37You the half, me the half, and together we save money and pressure on the environment.
24:45IKEA has been paid for many years,
24:46for many years.
24:49It's true that IKEA came for two and a half years ago,
24:52at we came with a new building here to Denmark.
24:56We came for example very strong with lackered and natural trees,
24:59which we didn't really have seen in their boutiques before.
25:03IKEA's concept with the billy of the customers themselves,
25:07has been a great success.
25:08It's the meaning that the customers will be able to buy the products home.
25:11Even though they are buying the products home.
25:15Even the amount of money will be able to buy the products in the world.
25:20Even the amount of money will be able to buy the products in the world.
25:22With a total of 330 billion dollars and a huge consumption of new products.
25:39And a huge amount of consumption of money.
25:41IKEA stills up to interview, when they are criticized.
25:44But after months of writing and back,
25:47is able to get an appointment.
25:50IKEA will meet me in Romania.
26:09I'm on the way back to IKEA's school,
26:12in Tsuchara.
26:14I've been here for a half a year since I was here with the environmental activists.
26:22Now I'm going to visit the place again, with IKEA,
26:25who has decided to meet up with 7 employees.
26:29There is only one of them,
26:30who is on the streets.
26:42We're rolling?
26:44Yeah.
26:45Good.
26:45Can you manage forests in a way,
26:47that is good for people, good for planet and good for the economy?
26:51And in IKEA, we absolutely believe that 100%.
26:56You brought along some local managers,
26:59but we were not allowed to use any of their answers,
27:02because of security issues, you called it.
27:05Can you explain, what are these security issues?
27:08Yeah, I don't think it's about danger necessarily.
27:11It's more that we didn't want them on camera,
27:13and there are various issues with that, including security issues,
27:17where we felt it was safer, that I would be the spokesperson.
27:22Well, let's follow them. They know the way.
27:25It's showing, that IKEA has had trouble.
27:28Since we visited the area for a half years ago,
27:30and contacted IKEA,
27:32they've been back,
27:33and now the area has been planted again.
27:36This time with the trees in plastic wrap.
27:40As I understand it,
27:42healthy mixed forest is not supposed to be clear-cotted.
27:47For my understanding guys,
27:49this is a substitute cut, not a clear cut.
27:52Exactly.
27:53So for the long-term health of the forest,
27:55we're replacing what is more of an invasive species,
27:59with oak,
28:00which is much better for the soil,
28:02it's much better for the long-term health of the forest.
28:07IKEA benægter, at der er tale om såkaldte clear cuts.
28:10I stedet bruger de et nyt ord,
28:12som jeg aldrig har hørt om før,
28:14i forbindelse med skovdrift.
28:16What we're doing here is substitute cutting.
28:19They call it substitute cutting.
28:22Have you heard of that term before?
28:24Honestly, I have never heard of substitute cutting before,
28:27as a way of managing forests now.
28:29Yeah, det er ikke et ord,
28:30jeg har kunne finde nogen steder.
28:32Så jeg vil betragte det som en eller anden form for en ny sprog,
28:35man har opfundet til lejligheden,
28:37for ligesom at tale sig udenom,
28:40at man faktisk har lavet en skovdrift,
28:43som ikke er bæredygtig.
28:44I think there is a stigma to clear cutting.
28:47So if IKEA doesn't call it clear cutting,
28:49I think they're trying to avoid the negative connotation,
28:52that clear cutting has.
28:53For us, this is a substitute cut,
28:55where we're replacing alien species in them,
28:58with more of a solid oak,
29:01for the long term health of the forest.
29:06Udover de mange egetræer, de fælder i skoven her,
29:09siger IKEA altså, at de fjerner fremmede og invasive arter,
29:13for at statte dem med e.
29:16Men ifølge artslisten, er de andre træsorter i skoven,
29:19alle sammen naturligt hjemmehørende i Rumænien.
29:23I think in that particular case,
29:25it's very obvious almost,
29:27that they want to maximize the number of oak trees,
29:31that they can grow in plantations on this particular area,
29:35and do not want to have competition from other trees,
29:37that they don't consider as economically important or valuable.
29:40It's not good for biodiversity,
29:42because you have to minimize the tree-arts diversity,
29:45and get what you call a monokultur,
29:47a common skov that only comes from a single tree-art.
29:50So let's find an oak tree.
29:52Gabriel Pound mener,
29:54at det primært handler om indtjening,
29:55når han ser, hvordan IKEA forvalter deres skove.
29:58Oak is the most expensive wood on the market.
30:02This is at least 1.000 euro for every single cubic meter.
30:07So only these trees standing here,
30:09it's a couple of thousands of euros.
30:15And they should also leave some biotop trees.
30:19And I don't see a single biotop tree,
30:21from the start of the clear cut until the end of it.
30:25There is not a single tree standing.
30:28There should be a certain amount of them,
30:30and there is none.
30:34Habitat-træ,
30:35which is one of the
30:38certified skovs.
30:39It is simply about
30:40a number of trees,
30:43which you don't have to be able to develop,
30:48to develop,
30:48to become a number of trees
30:49and become a number of trees
30:53in the end of the year.
30:55that they die from all.
31:04Forestry is not rocket science. It's way more complex than that.
31:09Ikeas egne reklamefyldt,
31:10they tell themselves, why it's so important to afterlade habitat trees.
31:15It's important to not harvest all the mature trees,
31:18but to leave some of them, to become really old trees,
31:21and then to become dead trees,
31:23to provide food and shelter for the insects, birds, plants and fungi,
31:29to support biodiversity.
31:31Some parts of the forest are left untouched for the wildlife.
31:36In that way, the forest can keep on living and growing.
31:40Ikea reklamerer med, at deres skovdrift er certificeret af organisationen FSC.
31:47Og ifølge FSC's regler i Rumænien,
31:50skal Ikea efterlade minimum 1-3 store habitat træer per hektar.
31:56Men i de 12 hektar skov, de indtil nu har fældet,
32:00er der ikke efterladt et eneste habitat træ.
32:031-3 per hektar i de rumænske skove, hvis det skal være FSC-certificeret.
32:08Det er et meget lavt tal i forhold til den danske standard,
32:12hvor det hedder 5-10 træer.
32:13Det overrasker mig lidt, at man kan slippe afsted med så lidt.
32:17Og når man så ser jeres optagelser, så ser man jo ikke,
32:19at de har udpeget de her habitat træer på arealet.
32:44De lokale repræsentanter fra Ikea, som vi ikke må vise,
32:47forklarer, at habitat træerne kommer til at blive stående i de områder af skoven,
32:52som endnu ikke er fældet.
32:55De biotoptræer er der.
32:57Hvis man ser rundt, så kan man se biotoptræer
33:01rundt på et landskabslevelse, men ikke hektar på hektar.
33:08FSC-standarderne er meget specifikke.
33:11De siger, at man må retage et specifisk træer, som er ældre,
33:15som veteran-træer, der giver sælter for børnene,
33:18for eksempel for lage prædater.
33:20Hvis der er hollows i de træer, der er brugt af øl,
33:23så kan man ikke køle dem ned.
33:25Så når der er næste på træer, så må man ikke køle dem ned.
33:30Men klart vil man lave bæredygtig skovdrift, så vil man se,
33:37at der er efterladt rigtig mange habitat træer på arealet.
33:40Og det ser man jo så ikke på de optagelser i Rumænien,
33:43så vil jeg sige, at det er helt uden for skiven af,
33:45hvad man i 2024 vil kalde bæredygtig skovdrift.
34:00Becoming forest positive means ensuring the future of trees
34:04and the future of forest communities.
34:07Hvis man kigger på den måde IKEA kommunikerer på,
34:10så er der jo rigtig meget af deres kommunikation,
34:12der faktisk er knyttet an på forskellige elementer,
34:15der handler om bæredygtighed.
34:17Så det er jo ikke bare et spørgsmål om,
34:18at de sælger sig selv på at levere billige produkter
34:21til en fornuftig kvalitet,
34:22men de sælger sig også på, at det faktisk er bæredygtige produkter,
34:26man får, når man handler der.
34:27Og at det er produkter, hvor man kan regne med,
34:29at de materialer, der bliver brugt, eksempelvis streget,
34:32kommer fra bæredygtige kilder.
34:43Hvis det viser sig, at de ikke lever op til nogle af de her ting på visse parametre,
34:47så vil det jo være det, vi typisk kalder for greenwashing.
34:50Altså det her med, at man gør sin bæredygtighedsindsats
34:54væsentligt grønnere, end den i virkeligheden er,
34:55når man kommunikerer omkring det.
34:57Og at der på den måde er en afkobling mellem det, man siger og det, man gør.
35:21Så kan du prøve det, man gider spørre.
35:26Det bør ikke snabbt und ikke du på det.
35:28Det høje jeg bæred til dig i.
35:30Altså jeg vil ikke gøre det.
35:30Og om du prøve det, man bærede du siger og har dødig til dig.
35:31Det je bare, ikke?
35:31Det er fint, det kan du prøve det.
35:33Det er fint!
35:38We are on the way to another one where IKEA is located.
35:43The nearly 3.000 hectares here in Yash
35:46are primarily from egetræ and bøg.
35:49And part of the area is especially protected by the EU's Nature 2000 director.
35:56These four trees are extremely hard wood and very very precious.
36:03Nature 2000 is a EU-beskyttelses-ordning,
36:07which means that certain nature types should be protected in a relatively high range.
36:13And there are some restrictions for the production you can have.
36:16You should still have to change the tree, but you shouldn't change the type of type.
36:20So there are some rules,
36:22that you should hold the nature types.
36:25You shouldn't change them actively to anything else.
36:30Gabriel Pound has Agent Green's own photograph with for to document what they find in the area.
36:36But with all this, we have calculated the fact that we are in the nature of 2000,
36:41that we risk to affect the other species, right?
36:44It means that here we don't need to change anything or anything,
36:48so that there is a strategic evaluation of the media.
36:51So that there is an evaluation of the impact,
36:54which the areas have learned to have,
36:55we don't have to do any studies.
37:01Ikea has given the approval of progressive faking,
37:05which is called progressive faking.
37:06On paper, a more sconesome form of a tree,
37:09where the tree is gradually over a period of 30 years.
37:14In the paper is progressive logging,
37:16but when the entire forest cover has been removed,
37:20in reality this is clear cut.
37:23When you're doing large openings like this in the canopy,
37:28you can no longer have the kind of forest you had before here.
37:33It's simply not possible.
37:35And the place where we are right now is a living proof.
37:40We can zoom in to the soil and walk for hundreds of meters,
37:45and we won't see babies of trees that used to be here.
37:51I can't see a single oak.
37:53I can't see a single beech tree baby.
37:56I can't see a linden tree.
38:00I can't see the ash tree that we have seen at the entrance.
38:03I can't see those anymore.
38:06They are gone.
38:16Right.
38:19It expired in March 23.
38:23That's according to the information we have yet.
38:25Yeah.
38:26You have checked Sumel?
38:28Yeah.
38:30Can you open the one where we have the big Sumel?
38:34Yeah, yeah, here.
38:35This is all over Romania?
38:37Yeah.
38:37With all of the transport of wood the last three days.
38:43How many transports has been made the last three days?
38:4661,000 transports.
38:48In three days?
38:49Yeah.
38:50Interesting.
38:51So let's go to the forest we went to today.
38:53Mm-hmm.
38:54Can you find that?
38:54Yeah, we were close to Yash, and this is the forest we visited, a Natura 2000 protected site.
39:00Yeah?
39:01And if we zoom in right in the middle, we've been here.
39:04This entire forest is owned by IKEA.
39:06Yes.
39:06But soon all this area is going to be clear cut.
39:23There is going a half of a year back in Yash.
39:28The time with the speakers from IKEA.
39:39And that was last week? Exactly. Okay.
39:51It's not the first time IKEA reacts on this way.
39:55Agent Green har tidligere udgivet en rapport, hvor de kritiserede IKEA skovdrift i andre områder af Rumænien.
40:10Da rapporten fik medieomtale, afviste IKEA al kritik.
40:15Men de genbesøgte også de kritiserede områder.
40:24At gå der og gøre en facelift af området.
40:29Det betyder, at de har spændt en enormt mye for at korrekte naturen.
40:39Det, IKEA blandt andet gjorde, var at tage tilbage og plante egetræer i plastrør.
40:51De er reaktive, ikke proaktive.
40:53Det er, hvad jeg må kritisere om dem.
40:56Og de har ikke en virkelig konversering. De bare gjør det deres måde.
41:04Hvorfor kan det være, at jeg skrev til dig på 16. december.
41:11Jeg talte til dig om alle de tingene, vi findede.
41:15Og sødvendig er vi her, tre måneder senere.
41:18Og se.
41:20Er det fordi vi har været her?
41:23Jeg synes, at der er en naturlig flow og en naturlig proces.
41:27Og du kom på en måde, og nu kommer vi på en anden måde.
41:30Du ser procesen, hvor den er nu.
41:32Du så det, hvor den var da.
41:38I følge planerne skulle skovdriften i det Natura 2000 beskyttede område her, foregå på en måde, så skoven regenererer naturligt.
41:47Ved at et frø falder til jorden og vokser op og bliver til nye træer.
41:52Helt af sig selv.
41:57Men ifølge Aging Green kan det ikke ske, når IKEA fjerner næsten alle træer i store områder.
42:05I dette skase er vi absolutt på naturlig regenerering.
42:09Men nogle gange kan træerne ikke tage.
42:11Vi kan finde, at den forresten ikke kommer, som det skulle.
42:14Og så vil vi sige nogle intervendelser, for at forresten regenererer i en god måde.
42:20Og det er en måde, at det er godt for forresten.
42:22Det er derfor, at du har brugt plastikkerne, for at få mere åktræer.
42:28Jeg mener specifikt, at dette er om at gøre det.
42:31Så selvfølgelig naturlig regenerering bruger en hjælp.
42:35Okay.
42:42Jeg har min lokale fikser med på turen for at filme.
42:46Han har studeret miljøvidenskab og ved meget om rumæns skovdrift.
42:50Og på et tidspunkt kan han ikke lade være med at blande sig i samtalen.
42:53For mig, det er en forståelse af management.
42:57Fordi for progressivt løgning, din regenerering skal være naturlig.
43:01Du retretter tilbake.
43:03Du utræser nogle af de trede.
43:04Du ønsker den oak til at brænge sædlinger.
43:07Og du lader den oak til at brænge naturligt.
43:09Her har du oaks i tuben.
43:12I JASH, du gjør progressivt løgning.
43:15Og du har været forstå til at brænge sædlings i en plæstik tube.
43:19Det er ikke hvordan det skal være, er det?
43:23Jeg kan ikke commente på det detalj.
43:25Vi visste mange lokaler.
43:28Vi har været fullt transparente med dig på hvordan vi arbejder.
43:32Vi har også hatt alle accusations indipendentlæt verifte.
43:36Not just by the Romanian Forest Guard.
43:38Vi har også FSC-auditører, der viser våre siter.
43:41Så jeg er virkelig på, hvordan vi arbejder disse for os.
43:58Træet i Ikeas produkter, og fra Ikeas egen skårdrift rundt om i verden, er godkendt af FSC.
44:05I følge Ikeas er det en af garantierne for at alt er bedre dygtigt.
44:12Så FSC er en certifier.
44:14Vi synes det er en av de bedste systemer rundt,
44:18for at vi arbejder for oss responsivt.
44:22Jeg tror, at folk skal vite know, at FSC-certificationen
44:26ikke betyder for at være bedre.
44:29Men i Romania, det er even bedre.
44:31Det er equal med ingenting.
44:33FSC-standard, i Romania, er forstå klare, som dette.
44:54Det er ikke kun Gabriel Pown fra Agent Green, som kritiserer FSC-ordningen.
45:00Det systemer og procedurer, som FSC har, og som Ikeas brug af træ, er fundamentale.
45:07Og det er noget, der måske begyndte.
45:10Den internationale miljøorganisation, EarthSight, har udgivet flere kritiske rapporter om Ikeas brug af træ.
45:19Ikeas er den største konsumenter af brug på planeten.
45:22Det er noget, som vi har kalkulertet, og noget, som de ikke forsøger.
45:25De konsumerer 20-21 millioner kubikmeterer af træ i år.
45:29Og for at pute det i perspektiv, er det en træ hver sekund.
45:33Det er nok lager til at gå rundt i verden 7 times.
45:36Så de er enormt influentale i verden af træ.
45:43EarthSight-rapporter har kritiseret Ikea for brug af illegalt fældet træ i Rusland og Ukraine.
45:49Og træ fra straffefangelejre i Belarus.
45:54Alt sammen godkendt af FSC.
45:57Det er det bizarreste ting.
45:59Så det var alle grønlabelede.
46:02Det var alle grønlabelede.
46:03Vi ser de samme problemer i alle.
46:05FSC har været fundet til at certifisere illegalt timbre.
46:11FSC har været fundet til hele verden.
46:13Ikke bare i Ikea.
46:15Ikea fortsætter at betyde meget på FSC-certificaterne.
46:23Både Ikea og FSC har afvist kritikken.
46:26Deres svar til EarthSight er, at de ikke accepterer illegalt fældet træ.
46:31Og at de arbejder aktivt for at forhindre problemet.
46:37Som jeg forstår, der ejer Ikea 51.000 hektar skov i Rumænien.
46:42Og det er alt sammen FSC-certificeret.
46:44Og så kunne man jo tænke, at så kan vi være sikre på, at de her skov også forvaltes bæredygtigt
46:51og med hensyn til biodiversiteten.
46:54Og jeg er bange for, at det ikke forholder sig sådan i virkeligheden.
46:58Baseret på de optagelser, jeg har vist mig, så ser det absolut ud til, at der er et stort rum
47:04for forbedringer.
47:05Det ser ud som gammeldags skovbro i 3. verdenslanden, hvor man hensynsløs går ind og tager en ressource ud,
47:14uden egentlig at gøre ret meget for at bevare de værdier, der findes i området.
47:18Det ser ikke kønt ud, vil jeg sige.
47:22FSC er en af de tools, som vi bruger i responsable forest management.
47:26Jeg tror, at det er en af de bedste systemer, og vi vil fortsætte at investere i det,
47:31og støtte det, for at gøre det endnu bedre og større.
47:34Jeg tror, at det FSC-systemet har været kritikket for et langt tid.
47:40Det har ikke været op til, hvad det skal være, fra begyndelsen, når det var krevet nogle dekader.
47:46Det har været korruptet af arbejdsinterester.
47:50De bliver også betalt af de firmaer, som de er certifiering, så der er et klare økonomisk øjeblik,
47:57for at certifiering, så mye som muligt er.
48:00Så jeg tror ikke, at FSC kan rettende for at støtte for forest management endnu mere.
48:11Jeg har forsøgt at få FSC til at svare på kritikken i et interview, men det har de afvist.
48:26Ikea har siden 2015 drevet skovdrift i Rumænien.
48:31Et land, som selv har påbrejet store problemer med alt for intensiv og illegal skovdrift.
48:52Det, som international virksomheder gør, når de opererer i lande med høj grad korruption,
48:57så forventer man jo, at de bygger et stærkt antikorruptionsprogram op indefra,
49:02i forhold til at bekæmpe den her risiko.
49:06Hvordan er det, vi arbejder sammen med i det her givende land?
49:09Er vi sikre på, at de har de rigtige forudsætninger for at arbejde på den måde, vi gerne vil arbejde
49:14på?
49:17Så kan det godt være, at der stadig sker fejl, men hvad har de gjort ved det?
49:26Det er som på den måde.
49:27Det er som på den måde.
49:27Ja, ja.
49:28Du går på den måde, men jeg går på den måde.
49:30Ja.
49:41Få på den måde, at de ikke se på den måde.
49:44Det er blokkånd i den måde.
49:45Det er blokkånd i den måde.
49:52Det er blokkånd i den måde.
49:55Du ser på den måde i Ikea,
49:56det er blokkånd i blokkånd.
50:02Det er blokkånd i den måde.
50:04Du skal ikke drive her,
50:05du skal ikke tage på den måde.
50:08Du skal ikke tage på den måde.
50:09Det er blokkånd i det som vi skal gjøre.
50:15Du skal ikke tage på den måde.
50:29Ikea ejer skoven her, men er solgt tømret til et lokalfirma, som selv har stået for at fælde træerne i
50:35området.
50:36Det er blokkånd i den måde.
50:40Det er legalt?
50:41Det er ikke legalt.
50:44Det er blokkånd i den måde.
50:45De måde ha protektivt dette måde,
50:46og det er blokkånd i den måde.
50:48Det er blokkånd i den måde.
50:51Det er blokkånd i den måde,
50:53og de ikke har gjort det her.
51:03Ikea har ikke sanktioneret tømrefirmaet.
51:07Men det har myndighederne.
51:13Ikea har ikke sanktioneret tømrefirmaet.
51:15A.I.kea har ikke sanktioneret tømrefirmaet,
51:22But it has the authorities, which in relation to the fælding, have set up three bøder.
51:27This is almost three meters high.
51:29No.
51:30For to install the unlawful skovingsvej,
51:33for to get more tømmer from skoven,
51:36and for to get the stone trees.
51:47We are back to the skoven in Sanesti
51:50for at mødes med Ikeas repræsentanter.
51:55And Ian Holban has ringed to a local myndighedskilde
51:59for at forhøre sig om det rumanske firma,
52:02som har udført arbejden i Ikeas skov.
52:20Okay.
52:28The Forest Guard issued various fines for the logging company.
52:34For me, that's a flag that the system is actually working.
52:37But the fines were given out due to an NGO, Agent Green,
52:44who filed the complaint and made the Forest Guard do his work.
52:49But that resulted in three fines so far.
52:51Doesn't that affect you at all?
52:53I don't know this company myself,
52:55but the overall process at Inca
52:57is that we're very strict with who we work with.
52:59So I think we wouldn't tolerate that kind of behavior within Inca operation.
53:03But so far you have done.
53:06So far you have done.
53:07They are still here.
53:09Is it all possible that some of these subcontractors
53:12have been influenced by the way things have been run
53:14in the forest industry in Romania over the years.
53:18So we're very careful about who we work with.
53:21We have very strict processes around subcontractors
53:24and also around people who,
53:26companies who come on to who we sell the wood to.
53:32I have long tried to answer
53:34whether IKEA has ever experienced
53:37any kind of corruptive behavior
53:37or corruption they have been informed.
53:41Have you ever reported any kind of corruptive behavior?
53:45It's an unanswered question
53:47that we have asked again and again.
53:49I was super clear with you last time
53:51and I'll be super clear again.
53:52We have a zero tolerance approach
53:55for any corruption in our operations.
53:57Have you reported that?
53:59Now I'm asking again.
54:00So in any location,
54:01whether it's Romania,
54:01whether it's somewhere else in Europe
54:03or around the world,
54:04we will respond to that.
54:06But that's still not answering my question.
54:09No.
54:11No.
54:12So you have not reported anything?
54:15So I'd rather not get into individual cases now,
54:18but I'm telling you that our approach
54:20is a zero tolerance approach
54:22to any form of corruption.
54:23If we find it,
54:24we will report it
54:25and we will take action.
54:38We have visited several IKEA-Skovs in Romania,
54:42and IKEA has their own words for what we have seen.
54:47For example,
54:48there is not talk about IKEA's clear cuts,
54:50but that they are
54:51the old old and new ones
54:53and new ones.
54:57And EG3-stiklinger i plastrør
54:59are not a term for a
55:02ubæredygtig skovdrift.
55:03It is,
55:04citat,
55:05naturen,
55:05which has a help for a help.
55:08The challenge
55:09to drive commercial skovdrift
55:11and at the height of the university,
55:13it is important,
55:15but you can go a bit of the way
55:18to take the necessary attention,
55:21and you see,
55:22you are not on the expectations,
55:24you have shown me from Romania.
55:29I like IKEA.
55:31I've been going to IKEA a lot,
55:33but I really question
55:34the fundamental business model.
55:36This time is up for
55:37fast furniture.
55:39I would say so.
55:46But it is difficult for them,
55:48because they are a company
55:49whose business model
55:51is to be
55:54fast
55:55fast
55:56and cheap furniture.
55:58And if they will listen
56:00what we have to say,
56:01this might need to change
56:03their business model,
56:04because the era
56:05of cheap
56:06and fast furniture,
56:08where you have an annual catalogue
56:10for furniture,
56:11just like you have for fashion,
56:13is gone.
56:15It's over.
56:17Why are IKEA involved
56:19in forestry in Romania?
56:21Our belief is that
56:23if you manage forestry
56:24in the right way,
56:25it can be good for people,
56:27it can be good for the planet,
56:28and it can be good for the economy.
56:30So you are saying
56:31that you are in Romania
56:32to actually save the forests?
56:35Yes, absolutely.
56:36And if you look at the forest
56:37since we've been there,
56:39you can see that the forest
56:40has actually grown in density
56:41since we began in Romania.
56:45We love wood,
56:46and we love forests.
57:12And we love forests.
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