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William Branham Historical Research
  • 21 hours ago
John and Frannie examine how Columbine was interpreted within charismatic and revival communities, particularly through stories of Christian martyrdom, youth rallies, spiritual warfare, and instant obedience. They discuss how tragedy became connected to recruitment, end-times expectations, persecution messaging, and pressure on young believers to prove their faith through extreme sacrifice.

Drawing from Frannie's experiences in revival culture, they explore the lasting effects of fear, guilt, hypervigilance, burnout, and diminished self-trust. The conversation also considers how similar language continues across generations, why leaders should be accountable for its long-term impact, and how a healthier Christian faith can emphasize grace, compassion, critical thinking, and service.

CHAPTERS

00:00 Introduction
02:35 How Columbine Shaped a Generation of Christian Youth
06:33 Fear, Martyrdom, and Religious Indoctrination
11:16 The Psychological Pressure to Become a Martyr
16:00 Mental Health, Spiritual Warfare, and Joel's Army
22:29 Lou Engle, IHOPKC, and the Chosen Generation
30:57 The Repeating Promise of End-Times Revival
38:07 Charlie Kirk and the Return of Martyrdom Rhetoric
43:38 The Lifelong Consequences of Religious Intensity
49:38 The Leaders Move On, but the Children Carry the Cost
54:33 Financial Sacrifice, Missionary Calling, and Accountability

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Transcript
00:31Hello, and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast.
00:35I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research
00:40at william-branham.org, and with me I have my co-host and friend, Franny Nance, former
00:45member of Charismania.
00:47Franny, it's good to have you back and to talk about a subject that's a little bit difficult.
00:52I know that people are going to hear the words and they're going to think we're heading
00:55towards political, but I'm actually heading more towards religious and psychological,
01:01because as you are well aware, and many of our listeners now know, many of the themes
01:07that we heard while we were in church were actually political themes, but they were being weaponized
01:12as religious themes to try to, I don't know, convert the masses and keep them corralled.
01:18And one of those subjects, which I'm going to say the word now and you can watch, the audience
01:23will drop, I'm going to talk about Columbine, because there's a huge problem that I never
01:30really thought about whenever I thought about what happened at Columbine.
01:34What happened was terrible, and everybody knows what happened.
01:38If you don't, we're not going to talk about what happened.
01:41You can go search it on YouTube.
01:42It was a very, very tragic event.
01:44What we're going to talk actually about is what happened in the aftermath.
01:49And this is something that, for me, it hits home very hard.
01:53I grew up in a world where things like this were being used to weaponize the religion against
01:59me.
02:00But interestingly, I grew up in a stagnant religion, and I'm using that word kind of disparage,
02:06kind of different than you would use it in other contexts.
02:10We were stagnant in that our political weaponization of religion was stuck in the 40s, 50s, and 60s,
02:16which is really odd when you think about it.
02:18Fast forward, I come out of this world, and I started attending new churches, and I'm seeing
02:23the same types of things happening in certain churches, but I never really thought about
02:28what it did psychologically to the people.
02:31And I guess to open this up, what do you remember whenever you were in the church world
02:37about Columbine?
02:38Yeah, Columbine was sort of the beginning of a radical, I don't want to say radicalization
02:46for me, religiously.
02:49You know, again, and those of you who have listened before have shared my story already,
02:54so I grew up in the charismatic and revival world.
02:57But it was my junior year in high school when it happened, and there had been other school shootings.
03:07It certainly isn't like it is today, where there's like active shooter drills, and, you know,
03:13we've had, unfortunately, so many.
03:15But this was also televised, you know, what, like real time we were following it, like what
03:24was happening, which again, this is pre-9-11, this is, you know, pre-smartphones.
03:30So, it was something that we were watching, like witnessing, you know, firsthand, and it
03:37was very, very alarming.
03:40And, you know, what's going on?
03:42It's sort of also following on, you know, the 1980s, the tail end of the 1990s with the
03:47satanic panic where, you know, parents are, you know, Marilyn Manson and this like evil
03:52music that people are listening to that influences teenagers and what is it doing to them?
03:56So, when that happened, you know, that happened in the midst of, you know, or that kicked off
04:04on, like, in the religious movement that I was involved in, just a whole, where you would
04:10see spiritual leaders kind of glom on to this tragedy and use it, I mean, this sounds very
04:18cynical, but use it for their own recruiting methods or promotion.
04:24Because this led to, I would say, Mike's book, learning about Lou Engel and his rhetoric
04:31with, you know, leading up to the call.
04:33There was a lot of youth rallies after this happened, sort of rallying the troops in church,
04:39talking about, you know, just that language of, at any point, you don't know when your life
04:48is going to end, you need to be on fire for Jesus.
04:50And it started that whole story of martyrdom.
04:54There was something that came out of it where, you know, some of the teenagers that lost their
05:00lives in that tragedy were, lost their lives because they, you know, stood for Jesus and
05:07the perpetrators who took their lives didn't like that.
05:11And so, this whole language around Christian martyrdom, like, it took off like a wildfire.
05:18And in the churches that I attended, that was used as a recruiting method for, you know,
05:25youth rallies around the country.
05:27And then this whole idea of, like, we're leading up to the call on the Washington, D.C.
05:33mall where we're going to have a day of worship, prayer, fasting, and praying for, you know,
05:37God to return to schools for revival and just kind of that language took off with, you know,
05:43hey, this person said yes.
05:46You know, they had a weapon to their head and, you know, asked to deny Christ and they said
05:51yes.
05:51And we all just rallied around this and cut to, you know, here, this was when I was, what,
05:5817, now I'm 44, almost 45, I think, 45.
06:05You know, that's, those aren't the facts.
06:09The true, you know, what we were told that happened, you know, sort of in the wake of
06:14this tragedy, you know, through corroborated witness stories, you know, the FBI reporting,
06:20the files, is that the martyr story that really fueled these movements was false.
06:29Yeah, so that's kind of where we're going with that today.
06:33Like I said, it's such a hard topic for me because I grew up in a world where we were
06:37trained that you could not fall, you could not falter, you could not fail, you must be
06:44part of the elite, the elite group are the ones who would say yes if a gun was held to
06:48your head.
06:49And I never really stopped to think about the scriptures like where Peter denied three
06:53times.
06:54And this is the perfect example that humans can make mistakes and they can still be saved.
07:01But we weren't in that mindset.
07:03And when you combine all of that and the things that you have said, what we actually have today
07:09in this podcast is another Connecting the Dots podcast about martyrdom.
07:14I had the same conversation, well, similar conversation with Jenny McGrath about Youth with a Mission.
07:20She said as she was training herself in the Youth with a Mission mindset, she trained her
07:27own mind to become that of a martyr.
07:29It's not that they outright said it, they didn't say you must do this, but that was how
07:34she was indoctrinated such that this was a good thing.
07:38It's a good thing to be a martyr.
07:40And don't get me wrong, they're the Christian martyrs.
07:43I'm not saying anything bad that they did a bad thing, but that mindset is not what should
07:48attract the youth.
07:49There is a huge psychological weakness with the movement if you must attract the youth
07:56through things of fear.
07:58It shows that there's something wrong because if your religion is such that you have to scare
08:03people into it, what happens when they're no longer afraid?
08:07They're just simply going to walk away and leave and say, I want no part of this.
08:11You brought me in by fear.
08:12You can't hold me captive by fear.
08:15Sadly, a lot of the people that I work with, that's exactly what they say.
08:19Once they got in, they were held captive by fear.
08:22And so this becomes a conversation that's much bigger than Columbine.
08:26It's much bigger than just the few examples we'll have.
08:28But these are really good examples because, like you said, when there is a political event
08:34that can cause complex trauma to even people who aren't in the event, you'll notice that
08:42a lot of the evangelical crowd, the charismatic crowd, Pentecostal crowd, they will use that
08:48as a means to attract people into the religion.
08:52And I'm just simply asking the question, is that the right way to approach Christianity?
08:58Yes, you make a, I love that you brought up Peter in the Bible and the grace, mercy offered
09:06to him.
09:08And this extreme language of martyrdom and someone, especially when you're young, and I would
09:17say that podcast, you know, your podcast series with Jenny is really good because I'd heard
09:21her at that interview listening to you all talk and she mentioned the martyrdom and I was
09:25like, is this a theme?
09:26I was like, because that is the same for me, you know, at the same time, you know, took,
09:34and I get it, like, you know, grieving families are trying to make sense of horrible tragedy
09:39of what happened.
09:40But it still doesn't absolve the responsibility from church leaders and youth leaders who were
09:49then using that and platforming a lot of these people to talk about, you know, one of the
09:55victims of the Columbine, of Columbine was a young lady named Rachel Scott, and her father
10:03spoke at the call DC.
10:06And he went on Oprah.
10:08And there's just a lot around this martyrdom idea.
10:12And again, if you read, go and research, a lot of the stories that, you know, were told
10:19were not true.
10:22And so, it kind of gets into this, I mean, this could be a series, you know, what is a
10:27martyr?
10:27How do we use that?
10:28But going back to just the psychological impact of that, I had such a conflict where it was,
10:37you know, I, that was set up as the ideal, like, wow, look at this intensity, like, these
10:43young people loved God unto death.
10:46And look at that integrity where they were held, had a gun to their head, and they did
10:51not deny Christ.
10:52And would you be willing to do that?
10:54You know, this whole thing around, like, you know, another victim, Cassie Bernal, where
10:59it was like, she said yes, it was this whole thing.
11:01I mean, Michael W. Smith wrote a song about it.
11:05And, you know, I laugh, but it's kind of like, you know, that's, it's, again, that whole using
11:10the music and the songs, like, this is your time, like, she said yes, would you do that?
11:15Would you do it too?
11:16And so, it's, as a young person, you're like, these adults are lifting this up, like, this
11:21is the ideal, okay, you know, and so, you start to think about those things.
11:26There's also, that came out around that time, a book by DC Talk and Voice of the Martyrs,
11:33Jesus Freaks, I had that, you know, talking about, you know, these martyrs.
11:38So, there's a lot of that, like, messaging of martyrdom, and it's extreme.
11:43It's, it's, it goes, it's like a go hard type of intensity.
11:48And I think at the time, you know, I'm hearing this, and I am, I'm going to various youth
11:52rallies around, you know, it's funny, I wonder if I cross paths with Pia Hugo on your, because
11:58she talks about her time in Maryland.
12:01And at the time, I was living in Virginia, and there's a lot of youth rallies in Maryland,
12:05Northern Virginia, that area that we went to leading up to the call DC, where it was very
12:11much, you know, that intensity of people on the, at the altar praying, and, and I, and
12:17I remember asking God, I was like, please, you know, I wanted to be a martyr.
12:21And at the same time, I had that conflict, which I think is very human, it's like, but I kind
12:27of want to, like, live, you know, I'm 16, 17, and I'm like, I would like to grow up, get
12:34married, have a job.
12:36But that doesn't allow for that, because it's, you're like, well, you know, I need to,
12:41to be in this intense place that at any moment, you know, I could be asked to, you know, give
12:47up my life, and almost like it's a selfish, shameful thing to want to live.
12:54You know, Christ died for you, wow, that's so selfish.
12:57And again, no one's saying these exact words, but it's very heavily implied.
13:02And so, what that does to your psyche, especially being a part of a group, it's like, well, I
13:08don't know what my family is, my friends, I don't want to get ostracized from it.
13:13So, you kind of go along with it.
13:15And one other thing I wanted to mention as well that goes along with this was not just
13:20like the idea of martyrdom.
13:23There was also something, you know, a lot of people talk about purity culture from just
13:28like a sexual standpoint or, you know, from that.
13:33But I, there was also a purity culture in this martyrdom movement of instant obedience,
13:39where it's like unquestioning obedience to Christ and to the leaders that Christ has put
13:48in your life or whatever.
13:51And that went along with it, a lot of like shaming of the fear of man, like, are you
13:57going to be afraid to, you know, and deny him and have the fear of man?
14:02Like, God is calling you to have instant obedience.
14:04You say yes, you know, immediately.
14:07And so, there is something that kind of primes you for a control sort of authoritarian to not
14:16listen to your own discernment and your internal, you know, wisdom or, or whatever, and just
14:24sort of tamp that down.
14:25And it's like, well, I, nope, I, you know, I need to be almost militant, soldier-like,
14:32which, you know, we can get into that too.
14:34But it's sort of this, I see the trajectory of where it led me.
14:38So, when I start to hear there's a national tragedy or something occurs, and again, like
14:44we said, we're not, we're not trying to be political, but this popped up in my mind where
14:49I see a pattern of after Charlie Kirk, what happened to him last year, and I saw the same
14:57player, the same, the same people, the same movements start to use that martyr language
15:05and that militant intensity, you know, to, for whatever purpose.
15:12And that's, you know, my red flags and alarm bells started to go off.
15:15And that's where, you know, immediately drew me back to my time when I was in high school
15:21and thinking about that, you know, Columbine and what happened there and how that was used
15:28in my own life and recruitment into these movements.
15:33For me, the issue really is this, I grew up in this similar world where we talked about
15:39similar tragic stories, and the tragic stories were just that, they were a tragic story.
15:45But what happened is, if you can find and identify a Christian who stood for Jesus during the tragedy,
15:51you focus on this and you turn it into a martyr, and then all of the people want to be
15:55martyrs
15:56too.
15:56I know the mindset, I grew up in it.
15:58But there's a lot of huge problems with this.
16:01Number one, that's not technically what happened.
16:04It was not a group of people being martyred because they were Christians.
16:07So the story is twisted just a little bit.
16:10But think about this.
16:12In situations like this, mental health plays a huge factor.
16:16So the person who did the thing literally is suffering from mental health issues and could
16:22have been, the whole situation could have been avoided had the person got proper help
16:27before all of this happened.
16:29But the movement has demonized any mental health facilities into any mental health professionals.
16:35So you have to take it out of the natural realm into the demonic realm, and then you combine
16:41it with the history of the movement.
16:42We grew up in, I was listening to Latter Rain sermons where we were talking about this was
16:47Satan's Eden.
16:48Satan, and basically Satan was reinventing the earth for his own evil purpose, and it
16:53was painted such that every single bad thing that happened was because of the devil.
16:58And after I left, I got to thinking about my children, who anything that they did wrong,
17:03they say, Dad, the devil made me do it.
17:05Well, no, you did it because you made a choice.
17:08In the same way, the ministers who are making a tragic story into a martyr story, they're
17:14making a choice to twist the truth, because that's really not what this is.
17:19But think of the families whose loved ones were lost.
17:23You have a group of people who are literally using you and your loss as a stepping stone
17:28so that they can tell a broader story that doesn't quite fit the truth, so that they can
17:33recruit people into this movement that's called Joel's Army, where you're battling the evil
17:39forces of people just like this.
17:42Also, think about the family.
17:44It wasn't just the victims.
17:45You also have the family of the person who did it.
17:49I can't even imagine suffering through that as a parent.
17:52Oh, my gosh.
17:53If my children were to do something like this.
17:55Well, now you've demonized this person, and yes, they did an awful thing.
18:00Yes, it is horrific.
18:01I get all of that, but a lot of it really comes down to, did they get the help that
18:06they
18:06needed?
18:07And because they're shifting the focus into the demonic realm, and this is turning into
18:12a, you're a Christian soldier, you may have to martyr yourself as a Christian, you're
18:18not focusing on, can we get the help that we need for our children?
18:22There's a lot of information out there about, you know, people have obviously written books
18:27and all kinds of stuff about Columbine.
18:31And, you know, there was an article, I think, in Christianity Today in the 90s where it was
18:35talking about Columbine merch.
18:38I mean, it's like, she said, yes, bracelets or, you know, being marketed to teens.
18:44And you think about, again, I'm sensitive to the parents that truly lost their children.
18:53But you also mentioned the ones who are the parents of the perpetrators of the tragedy and
19:00what that must be like, just having to grapple with that.
19:06And did I play a role?
19:08And could I have stopped it?
19:09What, you know, what did I not see?
19:11And it's hard for, you know, people can't, you know, get that help or support through it.
19:19It's really sad.
19:20And again, I'm thinking of all the parties involved.
19:23There are complex issues, really, to think through with this.
19:26But again, you had an initial event that was very, very traumatic.
19:31Even for people that weren't there, it was causing trauma.
19:34You had people who were capitalizing on it.
19:37Like you said, they were selling merchandise.
19:38They were turning it into this martyr event.
19:41Now add to this the revival generation.
19:44You have people who are literally telling their children that they're going to be raised up as
19:50either Joel's Army, if they were outright saying it, or they're being raised as spiritual
19:54warriors to fight the territorial demons.
19:57Well, they begin in their minds to picture all of this as some territorial demon has come
20:02down and caused the situation.
20:04So the revival aspect of this even changes it further because now children, instead of
20:11seeing this as the tragedy that it was, they see it as a battleground.
20:15And so they begin to look and try to identify other battlegrounds because they're soldiers.
20:19And so instead of training people as Christians, you're training them with a soldier mindset.
20:25And that soldier mindset is based off of a twisting of the original story.
20:30It's a very black and white, dehumanizing way to grapple with that tragedy as well.
20:39I think about when they're selling merch, like She Said Yes and the book.
20:45You know, I think about the story, if you read about it, you get the corroborating witness
20:52statements that there was a young woman that was asked by the killer, do you believe in
20:58God?
20:58And she said yes, and she was not killed.
21:01And, you know, there was corroborating eyewitness statements about that.
21:06And the young lady who, you know, Cassie, she was just murdered.
21:12There was no discussion.
21:15But again, that was too late.
21:18You know, the facts don't matter, you know, because like the movement had taken off on
21:22its own and into, you know, what it became today.
21:26And you're right.
21:26Like there is, it was very militant, very black and white, instant obedience.
21:32What are you going to do?
21:33You say yes, it's like a, I hate to say brainwashing, but it really is.
21:37It's this, you know, what are you going to do?
21:39What are you going to do?
21:39You're going to say yes.
21:40It's almost like a, what you think of like almost a boot camp would be in that sense.
21:45And so, you are primed to be on alert, you know, like what, you know, this at any moment,
21:52like I could be asked, do I believe in God?
21:54And then murdered.
21:55And if you think about that, we're in, at the time, this is the 90s, living in America.
22:00I, again, I'm not, this obsession with Christian persecution, I, you know, we're kind of the
22:09majority religion in, at this time, like in, you know, we're not a persecuted minority.
22:15And so, you know, who, who benefits from, from pushing that, that narrative?
22:21Those are the things that kind of, you know, go on in my mind.
22:25And also, this intensity, it's unsustainable.
22:29You know, Lou Engel, you know, the call DC, and he's still, it's still going on, talking about,
22:34you know, the Nazarites from, you know, the Bible, the Nazarite generation, this intensity.
22:39And, you know, you would see that even at IOPKC, because he would come out to IOPKC,
22:43and you could always tell who was his Nazarite, because, I mean, they all, like, took on his
22:50intense, like, rocking when we're praying on the mic, and IOPKC, and this, like,
22:55and it was very lifted up, like, the more intense you were in this movement, the more willing you
23:00were to give it all, you know, you were platformed immediately.
23:05I was like, look at this, this, this is the, the one that you want to be.
23:08This person fasts, and they pray, and, you know, they're a Nazarite generation, and all
23:13this, this lingo.
23:14So, when, for me personally, as I'm, you know, growing up in this, and trying to keep up this
23:21fervor and intensity to be found faithful at the end of the age, when, you know, because,
23:26again, in the 90s, this is when, you know, a lot of the prophecies from Bob Jones, or,
23:33you know, the Kansas City prophets, you know, I think this is when Mike Bickle launched the
23:37International House of Prayer, and all this language about revival and the end of the
23:42age, it kind of tied into that, like, oh, wow, you know, the Bible talks about, like,
23:46as things are getting worse, and wow, this school shooting, and it's the media, and it's
23:51all satanic, it's getting worse and worse, and I was told many times, you know, like,
23:57you are going to be, we believe you're the generation that's going to see the Lord's
24:01return.
24:01This millennial generation are the ones that are ushering in the Lord's return.
24:06And so, you go hard believing that.
24:08And so, there's, and there's also a conflict between, like, you know, I'm 16, 17, I guess
24:14I should think about college and a career, but if Jesus is coming back, and so, there's
24:19always this, like, push-pull.
24:21I mean, luckily, you know, my parents didn't grow up in this, like, yes, they raised us in
24:25it, but I think they had some sense where they were like, you're going to college.
24:29Um, and I, I'm grateful for that, but there is, that was that belief, and I'm saying this
24:38because I'm 45, Jesus hasn't returned, um, and luckily, like, I have moved on with my
24:46life, but I also, like, found myself at IHOPKC, you know, I'm 22, having a nervous breakdown,
24:55like, where I was falling apart and feeling like I had missed God because, you know, my parents
25:03are like, look, we're not funding your life, your International House of Prayer, prayer
25:07missionary life, or whatever, um, you need to get a job, uh, you know, and you can't ask
25:12our friends for support and whatever, and again, I'm grateful for that, but there's a
25:15real conflict, so I'm like, well, I grew up like this, this was pushed on me, like, I
25:18have, like, I'm, now I'm failing, like, what do you mean I have to go get a job and give
25:23up this call, like, I, you know, I've got to stay in the place of prayer and intensity
25:26and waiting and ushering in, like, I am part of this generation, we are bringing revival,
25:33we are bringing the end of the age, like, that whole, all of that is indoctrinated in
25:38you, and you do, I felt like a failure, like, I, I sort of felt like I'd been thrown in
25:44a box, shaken up, and then thrown out, and I'm sort of, like, disoriented walking back
25:49out into the real world, trying to figure out how then shall I live, you know, because
25:54it hasn't happened, um, and honestly, you know, grappled with it for years, and through
26:01listening to this podcast and hearing, you know, people tell their stories, and another
26:07couple you had on talking about Lou Engel going to Gen Z saying you're the chosen generation,
26:13and I am just, like, he's still going, you know, and there's no, where's the accountability
26:18for that, like, what, the big thing that Lou Engel had and part of the call was, you know,
26:25abortion was the issue, like, that was, like, we have got to pray against this because the
26:31blood is on our hands and God's judgment for, you know, the sin of abortion, and we've got
26:38to pray against it for Roe versus Wade to overturn, and, you know, I did that, too.
26:41I went to the abortion clinics with my red tape with life written on it, you know, praying
26:46against that, and my mind, again, in 2022, when Roe was overturned, I'm like, I wonder
26:54what Lou Engel sang, you know, and he's moved on to something else. It's like, well, now
27:00it's, you know, TikTok or, you know, whatever, progressive agenda in schools and stuff like
27:05that, and I'm like, where is the account, like, and that's, I think that's where, you
27:10know, we, a lot of times, you and I at least discuss where it's like, you know, you see,
27:15you talk about, like, how, when you were raised in that movement where it's the 50s and the
27:2040s, like, that sort of, that stuff happening, and I'm looking, you know, at the 90s, and
27:25here we are, 2026, and it's like, it's happening to the same, you know, again, to the young generation
27:31of keeping this fervent intensity in this movement. We don't talk about, like, you know, the system
27:37is built on that, and it's sort of like, you know, I think about Mark Driscoll, and again,
27:45you should, people should listen to that podcast by Christianity Today on the Rise and Fall of
27:48Marshall Church, but he used to always say, like, you know, you're either on the bus or
27:52get off the bus, you know, we're building this, and, you know, there's going to be a
27:55pile of bodies behind the bus, and, you know, whatever, because we're building this movement
27:59for Christ, or something like that, and I, that's what I think about with these movements.
28:03There's a lot of us that are collateral damage, I would say, myself included, that were fervent
28:09believers that listened to the people who were put in our charge, you know, these leaders
28:15of these movements, and fervently believed that this was God, and I'm going to say yes,
28:22I'm going to follow, yes, I'm going to do everything that you tell me to do, and it's
28:26still not happening, like, it didn't come to pass, and so I'm, well, now, I guess I must
28:33have heard wrong, I'm, you know, where they, and then they flip it on you, there's no accountability
28:38for the leader or the person in charge, just like, well, you know what, Lou, you were saying
28:43this, but what about 30 years later, or what, what now, and it's, and a lot of times these
28:49people, because we see in the prophetic movement too, with Bethel or whoever, it's like, well,
28:53this prophetic word didn't come to pass, and it's immediately like, you're jealous, you're
28:57gossiping, it's satanic, and that's where we get back into the spiritual warfare thing
29:01too, it's like, well, that's a, devil is, you know, making you bitter, you know, IHOP used
29:06to say that too, like, oh, don't let the devil make you offended at God, you know, so it's
29:10like, you can't question anything, you just have to, like, accept it, and kind of move
29:14on, and then you feel like, I guess I'm crazy, you know, or whatever, and it's like, that's
29:19where I think you and I, at least me, that makes me angry, and for, I think about my own
29:26children, the last thing I want them to do is to decide, is to desire to be a martyr
29:31for anything, it's like, you know, that, you know, I want them to want to live their life,
29:37they have to be good people, to contribute to society, like, not, you know, run with
29:43this intense fervor, you know, to try to convert the world, or somehow that responsibility is
29:49on them, and, you know, then they burn out, and then they live with crushing shame for
29:54the rest of their life.
29:55Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started, or how the progression of
30:00modern Pentecostalism transitioned through the latter reign, charismatic, and other fringe
30:06movements into the New Apostolic Reformation?
30:09You can learn this and more on William Branham Historical Research's website,
30:14william-branham.org.
30:16On the books page of the website, you can find the compiled research of John Collins,
30:21Charles Paisley, Stephen Montgomery, John McKinnon, and others, with links to the paper,
30:27audio, and digital versions of each book.
30:30You can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those
30:36movements.
30:37If you want to contribute to the cause, you can support the podcast by clicking the
30:42Contribute button at the top.
30:43And as always, be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're listening
30:49to or watching.
30:50On behalf of William Branham Historical Research, we want to thank you for your support.
30:55Think about this.
30:56I grew up in a world that was stuck in the 40s, 50s, and 60s, but I got to hear
31:01the sermons
31:02that were preached during that era, and they're saying things like, America is spiritually dying.
31:08Christianity is under attack.
31:10The Christianity of your parents won't work for us because we're in the end time.
31:15Their Christianity is not radical enough.
31:19The God that is moving our people is creating a movement for our generation that is going
31:26to bring us into the end of days, and it's for this generation.
31:30It's not for the parents.
31:31It's not for your children's generation.
31:33It is for your generation.
31:35That's how I was raised, and I was raised listening to the 40s, 50s, and 60s.
31:40I started researching.
31:41I go back in time.
31:43They have the same language back in the 1900s.
31:45So if you follow every iteration of this movement, from Pentecostalism to Lateran to Charismatic
31:51movement to NAR, they're all saying the same message, and that message hasn't worked.
31:56That's really the bottom line.
31:57It hasn't worked.
31:59And the problem, like you said, is it does create collateral damage.
32:03You have people that are leaving this movement with complex trauma because they have this message
32:08that doesn't work.
32:11And think about one of the things that I said was, the parents' Christianity is not radical
32:16enough.
32:16We need to try harder.
32:17We need to do better.
32:18We need to become more perfect.
32:19That was the message.
32:21Well, think about the parents that heard this.
32:24And in our context today, think about the parents who had children that were victims.
32:30What do they think when they hear that kind of message?
32:32Oh, my gosh, is my Christianity not good enough?
32:35Is that why I lost my child?
32:37The people that make these movements, slogans, all of this verbiage that they're using for
32:43the marketing, et cetera, they don't really think about the other side of this.
32:47How many people can they hurt by saying these things?
32:50And for me, just like you, it does make me angry.
32:53I get pretty angry when I think about it, but I also get really sad because the people
32:59who are doing this don't realize the fallout that is far beyond their blast radius.
33:04Their blast radius are their listeners, but everybody who's affected negatively outside
33:09of their listeners, they're not even thinking of them because in the end, we had this word
33:14for the people.
33:15We called them cannon fodder.
33:17Those who aren't with us, they're cannon fodder.
33:19These are the soldiers that go out in front of the cannons.
33:21We know they're going to die because the cannons will blast.
33:24Then once the cannons blast, we can go in.
33:26That's what this meant.
33:28They were people literally we don't care about.
33:30That was the message that we had in our day.
33:33I listened to some of the sermons by people who are teaching the Joel's Army, most of these
33:38things that came out of Latarine, and it's the same message.
33:40We don't care about people if they're not in our group because they're either with us
33:44or they're against us.
33:46Yes, yes.
33:46It's that us and them type of mindset.
33:50And I said this earlier, but it does dehumanize people when you have that mindset.
33:57And I think sometimes it's an easy answer.
33:59It's easy to see things as black and white.
34:01If you want an explanation for stuff, removing nuance or anything like that to try to make
34:07sense of your life or tragedy.
34:11But that's not reality.
34:14We live in a world that has good and bad, and you hopefully have to figure out how to
34:22function within it with the fruit of the Spirit, hopefully.
34:27You know, that's one thing, through all of this, and, you know, both of my sisters are
34:36also still Christians, consider ourselves Christians, but all of us have been to therapy
34:42at different times.
34:43And we joke about how, or not joke, but just laugh that the therapists that we've seen
34:48separately, not the same ones, have said, I'm surprised you all are still Christians.
34:53And for, you know, considering what you have been through.
34:57And for me, it was, not encouraging, but just kind of like a confirmation where I am grateful
35:03because if you go back and you read the Bible or you look at Jesus, how Jesus operated and
35:11lived his life on earth and his teachings, that's what I want.
35:18Like, that's the Christianity and the way of life, hopefully, you know, that I want, that
35:25he was not in fear, you know, wasn't like fear-mongering or, you know, pharisaical in how
35:34you lived your life or whatnot.
35:37He was very loving and unmoved, had integrity.
35:44And so, I think, like, those are the things that I look for, but that doesn't sell and
35:50it doesn't keep you in power in your own movement.
35:54Like, you've got to keep filling the coffers with intense, you know, with the intense language
36:00in order to attract more people to your movement, to continue to, like, keep people coming to
36:05your church or selling your books or being invited to speak at various events.
36:11And I don't think that that, in my opinion, is Christianity or the way of Jesus.
36:19And so, I feel like the version of Christianity that I was taught or sold is not what Christianity
36:27is.
36:29And so, for me, seeing, it's almost surreal to be at this age and having grown up in something
36:39that I thought was pretty fringe with that language of, like, spiritual warfare, you know,
36:45martyrdom, end of the age revival, to hear it pretty mainstream nowadays out of, like, whether
36:53it's political leaders or just people who have platforms talking about that, it's been alarming
37:04and just odd to me.
37:06And to me, I think it's, like, a stain on the charismatic, maybe the stain is not strong
37:13enough, but just, like, this is your fruit?
37:16Like, this is the fruit of your move, like, you know, this division, this othering of
37:22people, this, like, fear, like, it's, it's, I think that's what it is, too.
37:27It's a perpetuation of this fear.
37:28And you have said twice now that mentioned complex trauma.
37:31And I don't think people realize the impact of these little, people call them little T traumas,
37:40but just you hearing it over and over again and being raised by that and then being impressionable
37:44and then connecting these tragedies to that and then over and over again, it does something
37:49to your psyche.
37:51And complex trauma is real.
37:53It's a real thing.
37:57And it takes time.
38:00Like, you have to heal from that, the changing of the mindset of changing of that reaction and
38:05hearing these things.
38:06And so, when Charlie Kirk, that happened to him, that, that murder or assassination, sorry,
38:17I'm trying to, I know YouTube is going to pick up these things, but when that happened
38:22and the immediate response from the charismatic and honestly political leaders, too, everyone
38:29jumped on it.
38:31You know, there was, that, that's, that was gross to me.
38:35You know, there was, Lance Wallnau starts saying that, you know, he called Charlie Kirk
38:41a martyr and said, this is the beginning of the third great awakening.
38:44And I'm like, you know, you could have just like gone back in time to the 90s and replaced
38:49Charlie Kirk with Columbine.
38:51And they're all saying that.
38:52And so, it, you know, it, it irritated, like it made me not irritated, it's like really
38:56made me angry.
38:57You know, Mark Driscoll said, like, if your church isn't talking about, you know, what
39:02happened to Charlie Kirk, then it's demonic and you need to find a new church or, you
39:07know, just stuff like that.
39:08And then even in his own funeral, it was in a rally and there was worship leaders and
39:15then political leaders with their message.
39:17And it just, to me, sort of showed the, I'm trying to think of the words to say, like,
39:25not the fruit, but I guess maybe the, the gross, the rotten fruit of the movement that
39:29like I and you were, were raised and kind of seeing like the progression of this language
39:34and, you know, of these leaders.
39:37And then here we are watching, you know, this tragedy being turned into yet again, another
39:46way to push a movement, to push an agenda and to whip up another generation of young
39:52people that, you know, they need to be, you know, like Charlie where I, you know, I would,
39:59I was visiting some family in Virginia and I was taking a walk in the neighborhood and
40:03I saw a sign in someone's yard where it says, live like Charlie.
40:07And I'm like, God, you know, cause it reminded me of, she said yes, you know, back in the
40:1390s.
40:14And so I'm like, I, I, again, I'm not saying people posting the sign.
40:18I want people to hear me.
40:19I'm not saying that the other side of the political spectrum doesn't do stuff like this.
40:24I'm not saying that this person who posts the sign in their yard was evil and, you know,
40:31whatever.
40:31But I am saying like, think about the messaging that you hear and take in.
40:38And then what you're telling to other people, like, you know, um, and then what, you know,
40:45are we, is it honest?
40:47Like, is this, you know, we're taking this situation that we still, there hasn't been
40:52a trial, like, you know, and just exploding it into this and who is benefiting from, from
40:59this, this movement.
41:00I've had more than one guest come on the show and they've talked about Charlie Kirk.
41:05And because that is their mindset and that's their story, I usually don't invade what is
41:10their story because that is their story.
41:12Whether I agree with what they're saying or not, I also came in contact with a family
41:18whose child, and I want to say that the child might've been five or six years old, was talking
41:23about Charlie Kirk.
41:24One of the things that angers me most about the movement is whenever they devalue a word
41:30or they devalue actual events in history.
41:33And think about this, there's a, there is a significant difference between A, a Christian
41:39who is murdered, and B, a Christian who is murdered because he or she is a Christian.
41:44That's a huge difference.
41:46And in that difference is literally the difference between murder and martyrdom.
41:51You would never hold, have a sermon and talk to children about so-and-so just got murdered.
41:57I can't imagine sitting in a Christian service like this, but you do hear about Charlie Kirk.
42:02He's being martyred.
42:04It's just so wrong because they've devalued the word.
42:07That's actually not what happened.
42:08He did not die because he was professing Christianity.
42:11Not at all.
42:12This is a person who was murdered.
42:14And they have devalued the word in such a way that they think it is okay to use the devalued
42:20word to teach children.
42:22So children are being raised, and they're literally saying exactly what you said.
42:26It's a good thing to be like Charlie.
42:27In other words, it's a good thing to be murdered.
42:31That's never a statement that you should hear from behind a pulpit.
42:35I'm laughing at the absurdity of it because you just don't talk this way.
42:39If they were to speak outright and not devalue the words, their sermons would sound entirely
42:45differently, and you just would not go back to a service like this.
42:48I grew up in a world where if something really tragic happened, you delicately, very, very
42:55delicately spoke about it to even a 16-year-old.
42:59Granted, I grew up in a world that's different than today in a lot of ways, but there is some
43:03value to that because you want your children and your young adults to be raised in a healthy
43:09way.
43:09You don't want them thinking about it's a good thing to be like this person who got murdered.
43:15I can't imagine trying to raise my children in an environment like that because I know
43:21the value of words, and I would be hearing it, and yet when you're indoctrinated, you
43:26want to believe it.
43:27So I'd be fighting internally with this.
43:29How can I do that?
43:30How can I devalue this word and make it say something that it's not, knowing that it is
43:34going to really wreak havoc on the minds of the children?
43:37Honestly, just saying this right now and hearing you talk about that, I know that's why seeing
43:46that sign, Live Like Charlie, really, it upset me seeing it.
43:52It brought me back to that time in the 90s and the trajectory of where that took me.
44:01And I think about the people, young people my age at the time that really gave up so much
44:09because they believed.
44:11There was a really smart young man that I went to college with, and he was pre-med.
44:18He's so, so smart.
44:19He got saved by campus ministry, and it was by a very charismatic campus ministry, ended
44:27up in a charismatic church and decided to go into full-time ministry instead of medical
44:32school and was, like, heavily praised for it.
44:36And, you know, like, this is an example, you know, of, like, we should all follow.
44:44And I think about, I don't know what he's doing now, but I think about that a lot because
44:48being at my age, thinking about the intensity I was in younger years, now here I am 45, you
44:54know, I have a job, I'm married, I have children, life is not easy.
44:58Like, it's, being human is hard.
45:00However, I cannot imagine if I had, like, in my fervor made a marriage decision or a career
45:08decision, you know, going into, you know, YWAM full-time and being in ministry or what
45:14it is, 20-some years later now, it's, you can't keep up that intensity.
45:21It's exhausting.
45:22And I see that in people, burnout, you know, things that you were promised aren't happening,
45:27you have no money.
45:29Like, those are things where I'm like, I'm grateful that I didn't take that route.
45:35And I'm not trying to say, like, I'm better than other people.
45:37I'm just saying, like, these leaders in this movement that push this intensity and this
45:42extreme language, and they influence heavily these young people, there is no accountability
45:48for them 20-some years, however years later.
45:51And that's why I get angry with a person like Alou Engel, who, again, I don't know him.
45:56People who know him say he's nice, whatever.
45:58However, you, there needs to be accountability for those words and your ministry of where
46:05you have attracted young men and women into whatever your movement is that you think is
46:11God and looking at the long-term results and impact on people's lives, like, 20, 30 years
46:20later.
46:21And maybe readjust, like, hmm, you know, like, these are probably pretty damaging things
46:28that I said and pushing my, and maybe my agenda and what I believed was God wasn't right, like,
46:34and maybe kind of going back and looking at that, but I don't think people will do that
46:38because that's a hard thing because you have to look at, like, well, maybe I built my whole
46:41foundation on something that, you know, wasn't true or was false.
46:48Um, but I think, too, that's why with the Charlie Kirk language and just this martyrdom
46:54and this intensity and whatnot and, you know, whether, like, TPSA, people are talking about,
47:00like, starting chapters in high schools, that makes me angry because for me, it's like,
47:07once again, you're recruiting or trying to indoctrinate another group of vulnerable people,
47:12young people into your, your movement, like, what you think and how you make money or how
47:19you, you know, run your life and that, to me, that's not, and then trying to sell it as
47:26Christianity or as biblical and it's not.
47:30And I also want to, you know, when you, we talked about, you know, what is the definition
47:35of a martyr, you know, what, we're so quick to label something as martyrdom and then sort
47:41of, you know, oh, this person was a martyr, you know, and then move on with that.
47:45But it's, you know, again, I'm not saying the Catholic Church is doing it right, but they,
47:49they won't even have a discussion if someone was a martyr until five years after their death.
47:54And then it's this whole process of, you know, looking at the evidence and is this person
47:57a martyr or are they not?
47:58And so, you know, we apply that label, I think, to liberally.
48:04And again, it's who, why?
48:08It's like, why, what is, what is the benefit from that?
48:12And how, like, how is that impacting our children?
48:16Like, how does that, and then they become adults, like they grow into that.
48:21And then do they perpetuate that same intensity or, you know, hey, it didn't happen with me,
48:26so I've got to make sure it happens with my kids and, and kind of push that on them.
48:30And I think for me too, even outside of martyrdom, what, when you're playing on people's emotions,
48:36especially a young person, it, you, I, it has taken me a long time to learn self-agency,
48:45to trust my own internal voice, like to, and I believe that is, you know, the Holy Spirit.
48:52Like, but growing up, it's, it's so much of like, well, I don't want to be a martyr.
48:58And it's like, that's, you know, evil, you must hate God.
49:01Like, you, so you have this, like, internal battle with yourself where you're like,
49:05you can't even trust your own thoughts.
49:06It's like, well, that must be from the devil if I don't want to be a martyr.
49:10And it, you, you know, I see this, again, happening with, it's perpetuating this on younger people
49:17where it's like training them not to trust their own mind or learning, like, critical thinking skills
49:23and then trying to decide.
49:25And then we have this generation that grows up where they've either shut off their critical thinking
49:30and so then allows for, you know, in my opinion, what we see going on currently in our current political
49:38climate.
49:38You had a sentence in the notes that you sent me to prepare for this podcast.
49:42And you said, the leaders move on, but the children carry the cost.
49:47And I want to think through that because that's probably, out of everything that you sent me,
49:50that entire proposal for a podcast, that is the most important point.
49:56The leaders do move on and they don't care about the things that they've said or the aftermath.
50:01But the children in the movement are the ones that pay the cost.
50:04Sadly, there are many parents who don't even understand that this is happening to their children.
50:09And also, sadly, some of those children do some very tragic things.
50:13Maybe not like we're talking about here, but there are other events that happen because of a child who was
50:18in this movement.
50:19And what is the cost?
50:21You've got fear.
50:22You've got guilt.
50:23You've got all of the things that we've discussed in the other podcasts.
50:26It's hypervigilance, persecution, obsession with persecution.
50:31I remember hearing stories about Peter, his denial of Christ, in a sermon context, talking about how wrong he was,
50:40just how evil he was.
50:42Literally, they painted Peter as Judas.
50:44And think about the differences between Peter and Judas.
50:47Peter went on to repent and he went on to be restored.
50:51And he became one of the apostles that we have books in the Bible about.
50:56So what they have done is they've tried to put it into perspective of fear, where if you make a
51:01mistake, you can't move on.
51:03And that's the environment that you're raising the children in.
51:06It is not the biblical example.
51:08It's their example.
51:10And these are the same men.
51:11If you read through some of my histories, these are the same evangelists who built their ministries from people of
51:17the past who are preaching against interracial marriage in the same way.
51:22Interracial marriage and all of the events in civil rights was a huge conflict in the 50s and 60s.
51:27And there were evangelists who were siding with the wrong side.
51:31And they moved on.
51:32But many of their children still carried the cost.
51:35Now you moved on through the 90s.
51:37You started talking about some of the things that they've moved on from.
51:40It's a pattern that repeats and repeats.
51:42But it doesn't repeat differently for the children.
51:46They still carry the same guilt, the same responsibilities.
51:49And in the end, they're trying to paint the idea that the children are being raised so that their generation,
51:56not their future generations, their generation must be perfect so you can see the end.
52:01And it's the opposite of the gospel.
52:03The gospel doesn't say that you have to be perfect.
52:05Peter wasn't perfect in that example.
52:08Peter does not fit the mold that they're trying to paint with this type of religion.
52:14And yet, they're calling it a worldwide revival that will usher in the end times.
52:19So, if it is ushering the end times, and it's not even compatible with what you read in the Bible,
52:24what is it?
52:25We do carry the cost.
52:26And I would say I'm an example of that.
52:28Like the young person carrying the cost.
52:30You know, my parents didn't grow up in this movement.
52:32They became Christians after they were married and when I was a baby.
52:36So, I think about that a lot because they're coming from a mindset of, you know, they were heathens and
52:42then were saved.
52:42And wow, I'm so grateful we're saved.
52:45And they immediately jump into, you know, charismatic movement.
52:49And so, they're hearing this messaging of like, you want to raise children who are, you know, sold out for
52:54Christ, that give 100% instant obedience that, you know, and they would get prophetic words like,
53:00oh, you know, God's going to use your children to usher in his second coming and, you know, they're this
53:05and that.
53:06And so, they're believing these things.
53:08And so, that's being, you know, they think that that's being a faithful Christian is like, we got to keep
53:12our kids, you know, in this or whatever.
53:14And I'm hearing this from adults and I don't know any different.
53:19So, coming out of that, it is interesting where, you know, my parents didn't grow up like that.
53:24So, certain things of their, like, thankfully, their common sense would kick in every now and then.
53:30They're like, you're going to college, you're getting a job, you know.
53:34But for me, I'm like, no, no, you know, no, I have to be found faithful.
53:40I like, you know, I don't want to be out here in Virginia when, I want to be in Kansas
53:44City when Jesus is coming back because I got to be ready for, you know, we're going to be here
53:49at the end of the age when, and I believed that.
53:51I really did, like, I really thought, like, I mean, I remember having a conversation with one of the, one
53:58of my fellow interns in the Fire in the Night and we were both like, okay, we're going to leave.
54:04But the minute we hear of war in Israel with Iran in the Middle East, we're coming back to this
54:11mission base, you know, so we can be here for what happens.
54:15It makes me livid, like, enraged that I'm picking on Louie Engel, but it's like, still going, like, still going,
54:24still pushing the same message, the same for what?
54:28Like, why?
54:31And one last thing, you know, I did want to say is it, I'm very, like, hyper aware of these
54:38things.
54:38So I saw scrolling Reddit, I think, and someone had posted about a young lady who was, did a GoFundMe.
54:47She has $200,000 of, like, student debt from college.
54:51And she's asking people to help her pay her debt because God has called her to be a missionary to
54:56America.
54:57And it's, there's, and I think I looked up, like, I tried to search what the, because she's going to
55:05school to be in the, whatever the program that she was going through, I think it was started by Lou
55:11Engel's son.
55:11And I'm like, if this is not just the perpetuation of this abusive cycle of, like, so she's going to
55:19be irresponsible, I'm sorry.
55:20Like, you know, the Christians, this movement worships, that's like, oh, you have to, well, God, God will provide.
55:26You just, he's going to honor your obedience by, you know, you know, going intensely into him and his ways
55:32are not the world's ways.
55:33And so, like, he's going to provide for you.
55:35And I'm thinking, like, that's really irresponsible, like, because she had said even, like, she had a job offer, you
55:41know, she majored in some type of music or whatever.
55:43And it's just like, that's predatory.
55:45Like, we would say, like, outside of this church context, it's, you know, it's like a predatory lender or whatnot.
55:51That is predatory, getting people to, you know, expect other people to give money to pay for their student loans
55:58to, they went to school for this purpose in order to, whatever, find this job.
56:02And it's like, well, God's called me to be a missionary to America, which is absurd.
56:06Well, that's just it.
56:07We've talked about this a few times, but it's all about the call.
56:10It's all about the action that you can do to keep you engaged so that you stay in the movement.
56:15What about the person who's called to simply sit in service and listen, to simply be nice to another person?
56:21What about the person who's called for those gifts?
56:23They like to focus on the gifts of the spirit that they can get a lot of money out of.
56:29But what about the other gifts, the ones where you're just lending a helping hand?
56:32The gift of servitude, for example.
56:34You don't find too many of them doing this, but that's what we're doing.
56:38We're doing the gift of servitude, and thank you so much for doing this.
56:41Yeah, thank you for letting me talk.
56:44Well, if you've enjoyed our show and you want more information, you can check us out on the web.
56:47You can find us at william-branham.org.
56:49For more about the dark side of the New Apostolic Reformation, you can read Weaponized Religion,
56:53From Christian Identity to the NAR, available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.
57:12For more information, you can find us at william-branham.org.
57:39For more information, you can find us at william-branham.org.
57:40For more information, visit www. accomplices.gov.
57:40For more information, you can find us at william.
57:43Thank you for storing our motorcycle and we've created my website.
57:44Bye-bye.
57:44See you on the date.
57:45Bye-bye, bye-bye.
57:57Today is...

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