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00:10Hello, Telesura English presents a new episode of China Now,
00:14Avoy Media's production that showcases the culture, technology, and politics of the Asian giant.
00:20In this first segment, China Currents take a deep dive into the week's top stories from China has just hit
00:2710 United States entities with targeted export controls, and the list itself tells a very specific story
00:34to a global sportswear brand has managed to turn one of Beijing's most iconic landmarks into a cultural misstep.
00:43Let's see.
00:50Hello everyone and welcome to China Currents.
00:52Here's what we're looking at this week.
00:53China has just hit 10 U.S. entities with targeted export controls, and the list itself tells a very specific
01:00story.
01:01Germany's chancellor has floated the idea of a new plaza accord to pressure China on its currency.
01:07And even inside Europe, that idea isn't landing well.
01:10A global sportswear brand has managed to turn one of Beijing's most iconic landmarks into a culture misstep.
01:17And China has wrapped up the Dragon Bolt Festival with 124 million trips, plus one very unexpected sight,
01:25a humanoid robot in a canoe.
01:28Let's start with the export controls.
01:30On June 22nd, China's Ministry of Commerce released a notice adding 10 U.S. entities to its export control list,
01:36which went into effect right away.
01:38It means any Chinese dual-use goods, materials, components, or technologies that can be used for both civilian and military
01:47purposes are now barred from being exported to these companies.
01:51If a transaction was already underway, it has to stop.
01:548 out of the 10 companies are core suppliers to the U.S. military-industrial supply chain, covering MMAN systems,
02:01including firms like Red Cat Holdings and Teal Drones,
02:04as well as airborne radar and satellite payloads, such as Ball Aerospace.
02:08The remaining two are U.S. rare-earth companies.
02:11One of them is MP Materials, which operates Mountain Pass, the only large-scale rare-earth mine in North America,
02:18and a flagship project in the Pentagon's push to reduce dependence on Chinese rare-earths.
02:24Its inclusion cuts directly into the upstream of America's domestic rare-earth supply chain.
02:30And this doesn't come out of nowhere.
02:31China sees this as a carefully targeted response to a sequence of U.S. moves.
02:36On June 8th, the U.S. Defense Department expended its so-called Chinese military company list to 188 Chinese entities,
02:44and the sweep went far beyond traditional defense firms—BID, Alibaba, Baidu, Unitary Robotics.
02:50These are companies that make electric vehicles, run internet platforms, and sell consumer robots.
02:56No concrete evidence was presented.
02:59The justification was a vague appeal to civil-military fusion, effectively using national security as a catch-all to pressure
03:06China's leading high-tech industries.
03:09Two days later, the U.S. Treasury followed up.
03:11It added nine individuals and entities from mainland China and Hong Kong to its sanctions list,
03:18accusing them of helping Iran procure military supplies.
03:21Their assets were frozen, and their access to dollar transactions was cut off.
03:26No U.N. Security Council authorization, no publicly verifiable evidence.
03:30China's response at the time was clear.
03:32It opposes sanctions with no basis of international law,
03:36and will make necessary steps to protect the legitimate rights of its companies and citizens.
03:41And on the very day the expert controls took effect, Beijing added another measure.
03:46China's Ministry of Finance announced that government procurement projects would no longer purchase products from 46 U.S. companies.
03:54Together, the two actions apply pressure from both ends—upstream supply chains and market access.
04:00Analysts have described the approach as precise, measured, and proportionate.
04:04It targets companies directly involved in military projects or in pushing sanctions against China.
04:09It does not extend to ordinary civilian trade, and it does not affect U.S. firms operating normally in China.
04:16China has consistently said it welcomes legitimate economic cooperation,
04:20but if a company profits from the supply chain on one side while pushing restrictions on the other, there are
04:27consequences.
04:27Now, let's move to Europe.
04:30At the EU summit in Brussels on June 18th and 19th, German Chancellor Frederick Mertz made a striking proposal.
04:37He claimed the RMB is undervalued by 30% and caught on the EU to revive the logic of the
04:441985 Plaza Accord,
04:46using coordinated pressure to force a Chinese currency re-evaluation and reduce Europe's trade deficit with China.
04:53The broader summit agenda focused on what EU leaders described as Chinese overcapacity and trade imbalances.
05:01They authorized the European Commission to begin developing new trade response tools.
05:05Commission President Ursula von der Leyen argued separately that China's export growth to Europe was unsustainable
05:11and that the EU should reduce its dependence on Chinese supply chains.
05:15The original Plaza Accord drove a sharp appreciation of the Japanese yen,
05:20severely damaged Japan's export economy and helped trigger Japan's lost decades.
05:25So the real question is whether that playbook can work again.
05:29Even within Europe, the answer appears to be, not really.
05:33On June 22nd, European Central Bank President Kristen Lagarde weighed in.
05:37Citing IMF research, she put the RMB's undervaluation at around 15 to 16%, not the 30% Mertz had claimed.
05:45More importantly, today's global economy is fundamentally different from 1985.
05:51Simply importing the Plaza Accord model no longer works.
05:55China's competitiveness comes from a complete industrial supply chain,
05:59relentless investment innovation and intense market competition, not currency manipulation.
06:05Europe's manufacturing challenges have more to do with high energy costs,
06:09slowing innovation and the pool of U.S. industrial subsidies drawing firms across the Atlantic.
06:15And looking only at the deficit misses the full picture.
06:19European companies earn substantial returns from their investments in China.
06:23Affordable Chinese goods have lowered living costs for European consumers and supported Europe's green and digital transitions.
06:30None of this shows up on the deficit number.
06:33China's response was direct.
06:35The foreign ministry said China-EU economic relations are fundamentally mutually beneficial.
06:41China does not deliberately pursue a trade surplus.
06:44So-called de-risking is protectionism under another name.
06:48One that raises costs for European businesses and hurts consumers.
06:52Today's China is not 1985 Japan.
06:54It has a massive domestic market, an independent monetary policy, and a complete industrial system.
07:00And it will not accept a coercive currency arrangement imposed by a small group of countries.
07:06Switching gears, let's talk about a brand.
07:09Canadian athletic wear brand Lululemon is facing heavy backlash in China over a cultural blunder at its flagship event.
07:16The brand hosted a large yoga festival at the Huanghuacheng section of the Great Wall and promoted a drum performance
07:24as traditional Chinese drumming.
07:26But after the event, music experts called out the obvious.
07:29That it was not a Chinese drum, but a Japanese taiko drum.
07:33The two have completely different construction from how the drum head is fastened to the overall shape and playing style.
07:40Essentially, Lululemon passed off a Japanese instrument as Chinese culture and did it on the Great Wall, one of China's
07:47most symbolically important historical landmarks.
07:50The frustration isn't about using a foreign instrument. It's about the lack of effort.
07:55The brand wanted to capitalize on Chinese cultural appeal to wane over consumers, but couldn't even be bothered to do
08:01basic research.
08:02To many, it felt like a lazy, disrespectful cash grab.
08:06Lululemon did issue an apology blaming limited professional knowledge and pulling all related content, but most people aren't convinced.
08:14An event of this scale goes through layers of approval.
08:18A mistake this basic points to a pattern common among global brands.
08:22That their interest in local culture only goes as far as marketing props, with little incentive or drive to delve
08:28beneath the most superficial.
08:30Wrapping up this week, China has just concluded its three-day Dragon Boat Festival holiday.
08:35One of the country's oldest traditional celebrations.
08:38The festival dates back more than 2,000 years and commemorates Qu Yuan, a patriotic poet.
08:44Today, it's best known for dragon boat racing and eating zongzi, sticky rice dumplings wrapped up in bamboo leaves.
08:51It has also become a major travel holiday.
08:54Official data shows 124 million domestic trips were taken over the long weekend, up 4.4% year-over-year,
09:02with tourism revenue reaching around 44.5 billion yuan.
09:06Dragon boat races were once again the highlight.
09:08In Foshan, Guangdong, a viral event known as Dragon Boat Drifting drew massive crowds.
09:15Long wooden boats racing through narrow, winding rivers at high speed, making sharp turns that look like something out-of
09:22-water motorsport.
09:23The spectacle was so popular that local hotel bookings jumped more than 30%.
09:28Major cities including Guangzhou, Hong Kong, and Macau hosted international competitions with teams from over 20 countries and regions.
09:37And in Sichuan, the festival took a futuristic turn.
09:40Humanoid robots joined teenage teams for an experimental dragon boat experience.
09:46Beyond the races, hands-on cultural activities surged in popularity, from making zongzi to sowing herbal satches.
09:53Especially among younger participants, China's traditional holidays aren't frozen in time.
09:58They keep evolving, blending deep cultural roots with modern creativity, and finding new ways to stay relevant for each new
10:06generation.
10:07And that's four stories for this week.
10:09Thanks for watching China Currents. We'll see you the next time.
10:20We have a short break now, but don't go away because we'll be right back.
10:42Welcome back to China Now.
10:44In the second segment, Thinkers Forum features roughly a Chinese podcast and welcomes Filip Filipovic,
10:51Serbian political commentator who will discuss its perspective growing up in the Chinese system.
10:57and also analyze the Serbia-China relations.
11:00Let's have a look.
11:06My Chinese is better than my Serbian because I grew up here.
11:09Right.
11:09I've been in China for 21 years.
11:10I think you speak better Chinese than I do.
11:12I'm not even trying to flatter you.
11:13Probably, yes, actually.
11:15To be very humble, yes.
11:18The whole environment, the whole atmosphere was...
11:21You can feel the respect.
11:23You can see how the whole environment was symmetrical.
11:26We are never going to get this kind of respect in the West.
11:29When you read the Chinese history, when you understand the Chinese history,
11:33and when you grew up in the Chinese system, you're going to have the similar dreams.
11:35The situation between the EU and Serbia is we pretend we love each other,
11:40but we need each other.
11:41That's the problem.
11:41I feel freedom of speech in China.
11:44I am not allowed to talk about it in the West.
11:48Hello, everyone.
11:49Welcome to another episode of Roughly Chinese.
11:51I'm your host, Yun Peng.
11:53Today, we have with us Filip Filipovic.
11:55He's a Serbian political commentator currently living in Shanghai,
11:58and he is also an international relations scholar right here with us at Fudan University.
12:04Hi, guys.
12:06I Googled your name, and the first thing that came up was this.
12:09It was a thumbnail from one of your YouTube videos.
12:13Oh, okay.
12:14With this exact picture.
12:17It was a thumbnail for one of the Bilibili videos.
12:19Not YouTube, sorry.
12:20Yeah, Bilibili video, yeah.
12:21And this was on Google.
12:23I was like, wow.
12:24This was on Google?
12:25This was on Google.
12:25So, how did you end up there?
12:29Because you are an impressive dude.
12:32Like, no shade.
12:34Not going to flatter you more, but not many PhD students at Fudan get invited to the Great People's Hall.
12:42Yeah.
12:43And meet the president of their country, Serbia, and the Chinese president.
12:48What happened?
12:49What led to that moment?
12:51Wow.
12:52Actually, this is a long story.
12:54Okay.
12:54This is a very long story.
12:56I was not the only one invited.
12:58There were around 15 people outside the delegation that were invited, and that's it.
13:06And of course, some people that teach Serbian language, teach Chinese language.
13:10It was a very small circle of people.
13:13And I was invited there by our embassy.
13:17Right.
13:18And our embassy was trying to invite all the people that were deeply involved in our relations.
13:24Right.
13:25Oh, and just for context, this is the Friendship Medal award ceremony for Serbian President Ucic.
13:33Yes.
13:33Last month.
13:34Yeah.
13:34In Beijing.
13:35Right?
13:50Yeah.
13:51That's insane.
13:52Yeah.
13:53What do you mean involved?
13:54Like, what does it look like?
13:55You don't have that many people that speak Chinese in Serbia.
13:59Okay.
14:00It's one of the toughest languages in the world.
14:02Right.
14:02Now we have more people that speak Chinese, but not on my level, because Chinese for me
14:07is my second mother tongue.
14:08My Chinese is better than my Serbian, because I grew up here.
14:11Right.
14:11I've been in China for 21 years.
14:13I think you speak better Chinese than I do.
14:14I'm not even trying to flatter you.
14:15I think that's a fact.
14:16Yes, actually.
14:17To be very humble.
14:19Yes.
14:20Okay.
14:21Okay.
14:21Don't push it too far.
14:22Yeah.
14:22Because I finished the whole Chinese system.
14:26I was in...
14:27It's called 九年义武教育 for the audience.
14:31That's like the Chinese state primary school system and middle school system.
14:36I was the only foreigner in my primary school.
14:39I was the only foreigner in my lower middle school.
14:42In the higher middle school or in high school.
14:45In high school, I was not the only foreigner, but again, a very rare one.
14:50When did you move to China?
14:52In 2005.
14:532005.
14:54Okay.
14:54So because of this background, when I was in ninth grade, 10th grade, I already started
15:03to do the translation for our delegations, not on the stage, but behind the scenes.
15:10Wow.
15:10When they have some documents that they wanted to translate, for example, for, for military
15:17discussions.
15:18Yeah.
15:18They cannot find that many people that speak the language.
15:22So a teenager was translating top secret government documents.
15:26It's not top secret.
15:27It was not the top secret stuff.
15:29Oh, okay.
15:29Okay.
15:29Public documents.
15:29It's like the protocol stuff.
15:31Okay.
15:31Gotcha.
15:31They're not going to allow kids to translate top secret stuff.
15:34Oh, that would be crazy.
15:35Yeah.
15:36It was the protocol stuff.
15:37And then when I was in also high school, or it was the first year of major studies,
15:44I went back to Serbia to attend one forum.
15:47Was it like a youth delegation sort of thing?
15:49No, it's not a youth delegation.
15:51It's like a serious adult thing.
15:52It's serious adult stuff.
15:54Okay.
15:54And I was there as a teenager.
15:56That's crazy.
15:56And there was one Russian lady.
15:58She was sitting beside me.
15:59Uh-huh.
16:00And she was just looking at me taking the notes.
16:03The whole event was in Serbian and English, and I was taking the notes in Chinese.
16:06Uh-huh.
16:07And she was just looking at me.
16:09She saw that I was drawing something.
16:12But she saw that I was drawing it in a very serious way.
16:16Yeah.
16:16And at that time, I was like really deep.
16:19I was really like focused on the Chinese tradition.
16:22So I was not writing from left to right.
16:24I was writing from right to left.
16:26Oh my God.
16:27From top to the bottom.
16:28Right.
16:28That's hardcore.
16:29Yeah.
16:30Hardcore tradition stuff.
16:31She was just confused.
16:33Yeah.
16:33She asked me, what the hell are you writing?
16:35I said, I'm writing only in Chinese because this is my mother tongue.
16:38Uh-huh.
16:38I'm translating all the stuff and I'm taking the notes.
16:42Then in 2020, I was having internship in consulate.
16:47General Consulate of the Republic of Serbia in Shanghai.
16:50Yeah.
16:50That was a very interesting experience.
16:54Uh-huh.
16:55Because it was a crisis.
16:57But at the same time, that was the first time I really felt that specific love for Serbian people from
17:06Chinese people.
17:07How so?
17:08Try to imagine, now it's COVID.
17:10And our president says, okay, we are in crisis and we want European Union to help us because we are
17:16a candidate state.
17:17But we don't really have a good relationship with the EU.
17:19Right.
17:20And the EU says, no, we don't want to help you.
17:22And then our president said, EU is an illusion.
17:26The only country that can help us is China.
17:28Right.
17:29And after he said that, we were in a consulate.
17:32It was March.
17:35March 2020.
17:36Yeah.
17:37March 2020.
17:38Okay.
17:38March the 15th.
17:40And the moment you get to the consulate at the front door, you can see like 50 or 100 packages
17:47of medical stuff that normal, ordinarily people sent to you for your country.
17:55Wow.
17:55And that amount just got bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger.
17:59In the end, we were receiving delegations that came with 200, 300 boxes of masks or whatever as the donation
18:09for my country.
18:10Wow.
18:11Every day we had two delegations coming in the middle of COVID to give you the stuff that you need.
18:17Wow.
18:17So this is not just official state delegations.
18:20No.
18:21But stuff sent by regular people.
18:22No, like football fans.
18:24Oh, wow.
18:25Wow.
18:25They were like government delegations from like Baoshan district.
18:30But why Baoshan district?
18:31Our coach of the national women's basketball team.
18:37Okay.
18:37She was the coach at Baoshan.
18:39Ah, I see.
18:40So the Baoshan government came and said, you know, your coach is also our coach.
18:46We want to help.
18:47Wow.
18:48And they said like 500 boxes.
18:51And our consulate is not a big place.
18:52We don't have that much, that much space for, for hundreds and hundreds, thousands of boxes.
18:57Yeah.
18:58In the end, it ended up, we had to rent the place at the airport for these boxes.
19:06In 2025, I opened my own channel on Bilibili.
19:10Right.
19:10And talking about Serbia.
19:11It's been very popular on Bilibili.
19:13A lot of my friends watch it.
19:15Hundreds of thousand people tune in every time we upload a video.
19:18So that was a picture that my production team sent me when they told me that this is the
19:23person we're interviewing.
19:24And I got the picture and it has President Wucic and President Xi in it.
19:27Yeah.
19:28I'm like, wow, we're interviewing President Wucic?
19:31And they're like, no, no, no, no, no, no.
19:32But see the guy behind him.
19:34To be honest, I was shocked as well.
19:35But I was not expecting to be, to be invited on such a big event.
19:43This was, this was like really the biggest moment of my, some kind of political life
19:49yet.
19:50Right.
19:50So can you imagine the leader, the president that is leading 1.4 billion people, which has
19:58the nuclear weapon, walks like two meters away from you.
20:04Right.
20:04With your president, which is the president of a country that only has 6 million.
20:10Hmm.
20:11We only have 6 million people like who we are to be there.
20:16Like we are like, like this big, China is like huge and we were there.
20:22And the whole environment, the whole atmosphere was, you can feel the respect.
20:28You can see how the whole, the whole, the whole environment was symmetrical.
20:33Like if you are the president, then you are the president, no matter the size of the country.
20:38If you're the president, you're the president, we are going to show the respect.
20:41And that ceremony specifically was to honor President Wucic.
20:44Yes.
20:45Or what he did for the Sino-Servian relationship.
20:46Oh, he did a lot.
20:47He sacrificed a lot.
20:49He did a lot.
20:50We're going to, he has the pressure.
20:52We're going to get to what President Wucic and how Sino-Servian relationship evolved in
20:57the past couple of years.
20:58But there's one thing I want to bring up because I watched the, the Chinese official
21:03like newsreel for the event.
21:05And I noticed that a military orchestra was playing the anthems of both countries.
21:11And it just got stuck in my head because I lived in the United States for 11 years.
21:15I've never heard a single time in any setting, not even in my, in my own earphone.
21:21I don't know what that says about me, but the Chinese anthem, it just disappeared from
21:25my life while I was living in the U S.
21:27I cannot fathom what that would feel like listening in a foreign country at a state meeting your
21:35own national anthem being played live.
21:37How does that feel?
21:38That was the first time for me listening the national anthem in a like live environment.
21:45First time in my entire life.
21:46Hmm.
21:48And it was done by the military orchestra.
21:51Right.
21:51I actually said that in my own video for Billy Billy.
21:54Okay.
21:54That that was the first time in my life listening to like the orchestra version of my own.
22:01It was like, you were at the edge of, of the tears, but you cannot tear up because, because
22:07you're, you're there.
22:08Like you're in front of two presidents in front of all the people.
22:10You, you just kept to, kept to keep it together.
22:14Keep.
22:14Yeah.
22:15Keep you together.
22:16And just don't show that much emotions, but everybody was emotional.
22:19You can see, you can see President Bush was emotional.
22:21Right.
22:21He was like the red.
22:22Yeah.
22:23His face was like red and happy.
22:25You can see his, you can see he was smiling.
22:28He was near the tears, but he didn't tear up.
22:31Hmm.
22:32When he heard that news that he will be, that he would get the, the Xinjiang.
22:38Right.
22:38The, the friendship medal.
22:39Yeah.
22:40Then he was like, he, he got very emotional.
22:45Hmm.
22:46Wow.
22:46Yeah.
22:47Everybody was emotional.
22:48It was like the very big moment for our country.
22:51A few, a few days ago, like two, two weeks ago, two weeks ago, I went back to Serbia to
22:55attend our meeting of diaspora of the Serbs outside Serbia.
23:01Every year we have this kind of big meetings that we invite Serbs from all, all around the
23:07world, from Italy, from Germany.
23:08Right.
23:09And on that meeting, when we were talking about this event, no matter if they love
23:14Butchish or don't like Butchish, everybody was proud of that moment.
23:17Hmm.
23:18Hmm.
23:18Because as the country that only has 6 million people, when your president is right there,
23:25when he was receiving that high level of the owner.
23:29Right.
23:29You should be proud of that.
23:31Hmm.
23:31And West pissed off.
23:35They were pissed off.
23:37I'm sure.
23:37I'm sure.
23:38These Serbs.
23:38They were all proud of that.
23:40Westerners were not.
23:41Right.
23:41Right.
23:41And you can see those arguments even happening inside families.
23:44Yeah.
23:45Some of these Serbs, they don't like the president that much.
23:48Mm-hmm.
23:48But they were also proud because, like, we're all Serbs.
23:50That's our president.
23:51Right.
23:52And he did many great things.
23:53So, why not be proud of that?
23:55Why do you think, for Serbs especially, this moment feels so emotional?
24:00Because we are never going to get this kind of respect in the West.
24:05Hmm.
24:06When the second largest country in the world, which is going to be the first largest country
24:11in the world in maybe 20 or 30 years' time, shows such respect towards a smaller country
24:16that was fighting for its own freedom for past hundreds and hundreds of years.
24:22When you feel that somebody respects their spirit, then, of course, you're going to be proud of that.
24:27Hmm.
24:28Okay.
24:28This is about a recognition of status.
24:31Yeah.
24:32I want to talk a little bit more about Serbia's relationship with the West.
24:35Yeah.
24:36Because, like, you go back to Serbia pretty regularly.
24:39Yeah.
24:39And I'm sure you talk to people about their experience in the 90s.
24:42Yeah.
24:42What happened with NATO, especially in 1999.
24:45Yeah.
24:45When people speak about that incident, not just the incident, the whole period of the 90s,
24:50because we remember the NATO bombing as, like, a 1999 event, but the political influences,
24:55the infiltration, and even military action, they started way before that and continued
25:00way after.
25:00So how do people talk about NATO and the relationship between Serbia and U.S. and its allies?
25:07Let me give you a very short example.
25:09That was the news, one of the biggest news from last year.
25:13General Kushner and Donald J. Trump, they wanted to buy the building of General Stafford
25:18of our military that was bombed in 1999.
25:21Okay.
25:22It's the city center.
25:24It's in front of our government, Ministry of Foreign Affairs, and our Ministry of Finance
25:30and Economy.
25:31Like, city center.
25:33Okay.
25:33Did they, as individuals, want to buy the property?
25:36Yeah, they wanted to buy that property to make Trump Tower.
25:40Oh, wow.
25:40Our government was supporting that because it was a big investment.
25:45Mm-hmm.
25:46And in the end, the whole project stopped because people were against that.
25:51Mm-hmm.
25:51That building is still right there.
25:54The building of General Staff is, like, ruined totally.
25:59Okay.
25:59If you go to Serbia nowadays, you can see the holes inside the building was bombed,
26:03and people just don't want that building to disappear.
26:07Mm-hmm.
26:08Because it's the memory of the NATO bombing, NATO aggression.
26:12We call it the aggression.
26:13Yeah.
26:15And if you talk to Serbian people, I think around 75% to 80% are going to be against
26:22NATO.
26:23Mm-hmm.
26:24But, unfortunately, NATO is one of the biggest military partners nowadays
26:31because they are de facto controlling the Serbian southern province called Kosovo and Metohia,
26:38or we can call it Kosovo.
26:39One of the biggest military bases, one of the biggest U.S. military bases in Europe are on our territory.
26:45In Kosovo?
26:46Yes.
26:46Oh, okay.
26:47This is why we have to cooperate with NATO.
26:49And every year, we have kind of must-have military exercise with NATO.
26:55Ah.
26:55Because they're peacekeeping.
26:57Right.
26:58According to the resolution 1244.
27:00Right.
27:01That's UN Security Council resolution.
27:03Yeah.
27:04The province of Kosovo cannot have military.
27:09And NATO allowed them to have military.
27:12Now they have their own Kosovo military.
27:15Serbian forces can go back to Kosovo in a very limited format, on a very limited area.
27:24Right.
27:25I think when you talk to many liberal Americans and Western Europeans, and when they say they
27:33remember the Yugoslav civil wars as Serbianica, as ethnic cleansing, as all those atrocities,
27:41and that's all.
27:42That's all of it.
27:43People in Serbia, what do people feel on the ground?
27:45It's a very tricky situation.
27:49The Bosnian side was killing Serbs in the villages around Srebrenica.
27:54Right.
27:54Because Srebrenica was one of the small centers of their military forces.
28:00And they were surrounded by Serbs.
28:02Right.
28:02So when we have our Christian festivals, for example, during Christmas, when all families
28:11sit together, then they decide, okay, we're going to kill those Serbian villages then because
28:16they're all together.
28:17And then from the perspective of revenge, when Muslims have their own festivals, then people
28:24from that Serbian villages go to the Muslim villages and kill them.
28:27Oh my God.
28:28It was like, and what is the most heartbreaking situation in the whole Bosnian war?
28:37Many people were actually relatives.
28:39Right.
28:40Yeah.
28:41For example, there are some families, there are so many mixed families.
28:45And I cannot even call that mixed families because they're only mixed in religious way.
28:54They're not mixed in ethnical way because that's the same blood.
29:00So it was very confusing, totally unnecessary war.
29:04It was totally unnecessary war that had the opportunity to be ended in a peaceful way in
29:131992 already.
29:15From 1992, the peaceful negotiations already started to find a way to create the Bosnian
29:22state with Serbs, Muslims, and Croats rights all protected.
29:30But if in 1992, three parties found a way to sit down and talk, NATO is not going to have
29:38the control in that region.
29:40Right.
29:40And NATO wanted the war in that region.
29:42Yeah.
29:42I want to talk about NATO here for a second, because if you speak to a former policymaker
29:47in broadly speaking, the Western Bloc, and ask how they remember their involvement in Bosnia,
29:54in Kosovo.
29:54I bet you they would say something like peacekeeping, there was a humanitarian disaster, not just
30:02in 1999, but all the way back to 1994, 1995 in Bosnia.
30:06And they would say NATO bombings prevented further atrocities.
30:09But I get the sense that if you speak to a regular Serb, they remember NATO's involvement
30:14very differently.
30:15Yeah.
30:16So how is that remembered today in Serbia?
30:19Same way.
30:20Same way.
30:21Same way.
30:21As in 1999?
30:22Yeah.
30:23Okay.
30:23Same way.
30:24How would you describe it?
30:25What do Serbians now believe the real cause was for the war?
30:30A few of them.
30:31First of all, our geopolitical position in Balkans is way too important and way too tricky.
30:40On two sides of Serbia, there are mountains.
30:43The only and the easiest way of getting through Balkans goes through Serbia.
30:51And the Danube River also goes through Serbia.
30:54So Serbia is the geostrategic point for thousands and thousands of years from Roman times.
31:00Right, right, right.
31:01Like Romans were fighting for that region.
31:04Turks, Ottoman Empire was fighting for that region.
31:08Germans.
31:08In the section between Adriatic and Black Sea.
31:11Black Sea, Adriatic Sea, and right in between of Eastern and Western Europe.
31:16Hmm.
31:17So geopolitically it's too important.
31:19Okay.
31:19The second reason is the Serbian existence is the problem for the West.
31:24Because NATO and of course the European Union, it has to be the whole piece.
31:33You cannot allow one small country saying no to this kind of so-called world order.
31:40What was Serbia saying no to exactly in the 90s that made NATO so determined to destroy the region?
31:48We didn't want to be the part of NATO.
31:50Hmm.
31:51We wanted the overall system.
31:53We wanted to be treated as a sovereign country.
31:56Hmm.
31:56We wanted to cooperate with all major members in the world.
32:01Okay.
32:01So when we're talking about sovereignty, so today a lot of people wanted to describe the Sino-Serbian relationship.
32:07They would say this is a cooperation between sovereign nations.
32:10Yeah.
32:10China and Serbia are recognizing each other's sovereignty.
32:13And those sovereignty would include the ability to make your own diplomatic decisions, your own economic, your own military decisions.
32:19So when we're talking about sovereignty in the 90s, were they, broadly speaking, essentially the same thing as what we're
32:26talking about nowadays?
32:27Yeah.
32:27Same concept.
32:29The respect of one country's choice.
32:32Yugoslavia at that time was the last socialist country in Europe.
32:37And after the Soviet Union fell, EU and NATO simply cannot allow different systems to exist.
32:47They even don't, especially Germans, they don't want to allow Serbia to exist.
32:52In 100 years, Germans attacked us three times.
32:56For the same reason.
32:58And when you have this kind of country, this kind of country is going to be an example to other
33:02countries.
33:04This is, for example, how the Soviet Union fell.
33:07You had Poland, then you had Hungary, and when the crisis starts in one country, it's going to start in
33:15most Eastern European countries.
33:17This is why, for example, Orbán, which doesn't really like EU, he had good relations with Očić.
33:26Then we had Fico from Slovakia, which doesn't really like the European Union, he has good relations with Očić.
33:34Why they all have good relations?
33:36Because they're all some kind of fighting for their own balance and for the sovereign interest.
33:44When you're a member state of the European Union and of the NATO, you don't have that much choice as
33:51a small country.
33:52Sometimes when you want to fight for your choice, your action is going to seem like some kind of radical.
34:00For the European countries, Serbia maintaining their relationship with Russia and with China is unacceptable.
34:09Okay.
34:10I want to show you a clip of President Očić talking about the bombing in 1999 and how he thinks
34:17you can draw a direct line from the bombing in 1999 to what's happening nowadays in Iran,
34:22where the United States unilaterally attacked another sovereign nation.
34:27I bet his English is much better than mine.
34:29It was surprisingly good.
34:31I haven't spoken in English for the past eight years.
34:36I think your English is good enough.
34:37It's not, it's not. To be honest, it's not.
34:39A big pain in the future because of opening that Pandora's box.
34:42Do you think that relates to Iran today?
34:44Even with Iran?
34:45Yeah.
34:45Yes.
34:46It's related to everything that was happening after that.
34:49And you know, all these politicians were saying the first attack in Europe, the first violation of territorial integrity happened
34:57in Ukraine.
34:57No, it's not true.
34:58It happened here.
34:59It happened here.
35:00You were guaranteeing, Alistair, you were guaranteeing us territorial integrity of Serbia if we accept territorial integrity and independence of
35:10Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia and Herzegovina and Moscow.
35:13Okay.
35:13Then they get into a debate over the historical details.
35:15Let's stop here and I want to get your reaction.
35:20Yeah.
35:20I saw you laughing.
35:21Yeah.
35:22Why was that?
35:23Do you know why?
35:23There was one very interesting event.
35:26I think three years ago or two years ago when Schultz was chancellor of German Germany.
35:33Before he went to China, he said no country can be the backyard of one big power.
35:42Ukraine is not the backyard of Russia and no country is the backyard of any other country.
35:49And then he came to Serbia and he said, you should recognize independence of Kosovo.
35:55Okay.
35:56That, the biggest, the biggest problem in the West is double standard.
36:01Hmm.
36:02The biggest problem in the West is double standard.
36:05Right.
36:05I think when Schultz, I'm not defending Schultz, but I think from his perspective, I don't think he thinks he's
36:12a hypocrite.
36:12Yeah.
36:13He thinks he's speaking truth to power.
36:16He thinks he's standing up for the people in Kosovo against someone who thinks Kosovo is their backyard.
36:22Similarly, he's standing up to the Russians on behalf of the Ukrainians.
36:26So like when you, when you have that kind of cognitive dissonance with, with people you're talking about, how, how
36:33do you bridge that?
36:34The international law.
36:35Hmm.
36:37Simple as that.
36:38If you look at the Serbian position on war in Ukraine, we simply respect the territorial integrity and sovereignty of
36:46Ukraine.
36:47Hmm.
36:48Just as we respect our own territorial integrity, just as we respect any other country's territorial integrity, because there are
36:55the rules.
36:56We sometimes support the Russian attack because we sometimes see that as a, as the attack on NATO.
37:07But if you ask the, any Serbian, if you ask any normal person in Serbia, do they feel the emotions
37:16that Ukrainians can feel on the front line?
37:21Of course they will say yes.
37:22Right.
37:22And of course they will say that's a tragedy.
37:24Of course they will say that's the war between brothers.
37:26Hmm.
37:27Hmm.
37:28But we are also seeing how the whole European Union is fighting for the justice of Ukraine.
37:33And so it's violating our interests and our territorial integrity, our sovereignty.
37:38Right.
37:38This is why when we have to talk to those people, we usually talk about international law.
37:42We know, we know that the international law in the real politics don't exist, but we still want to talk
37:47about it because we, we have to repeat and repeat and repeat that the international law exists.
37:51Hmm.
37:52Because one day it will.
37:53Hmm.
37:54And also there's another problem.
37:55We have to get into the historical details.
37:58Hmm.
37:58When you get into debate, for example, debate in the comments or, or, or debate with the real person that
38:05doesn't even speak English.
38:07Sometimes when you have to debate with Germans or with French, like their English is as terrible as ours.
38:12So what the hell are we going to debate about?
38:15Nothing.
38:15Like emotionally charged topic.
38:17Yes.
38:18Like people would read, ideally they would read the findings of the international tribunal, criminal tribunal on Yugoslavia.
38:25But even if they do read it, some of the evidence only came after was, was, was, or was not
38:29admitted as evidence during, during the entry trials.
38:33Yeah.
38:33Nobody denied there's war crimes being committed in Srebrenica, right?
38:37Do you know what's the problem with Srebrenica?
38:38The problem with Srebrenica is the Srebrenica was defined as genocide.
38:42Mm-hmm.
38:43And it was defined in genocide as the way that the whole Serbian nation has to be responsible for that
38:53so-called genocide.
38:54Right.
38:54And Milosevic was finding the way not to be involved in Bosnia.
38:59Mm-hmm.
38:59Because he was moving backwards and backwards and backwards and backwards and backwards.
39:05Right.
39:06That's kind of Sui Jing zheng zhou.
39:10Hmm.
39:11Like appeasement.
39:12I think the Chinese for Sui Jing is different to the English connotation for appeasement.
39:16Yes.
39:17But, you know, that kind of appeasement.
39:18He was fighting against the, the kind of nationalist tide of sending the...
39:22In the West, Milosevic is described as nationalist.
39:27Right.
39:27Yeah.
39:27But actually he was fighting for the peace.
39:29Mm-hmm.
39:30And because in some moments he was too weak, the direct result was our territory and interest lost in Croatia.
39:40Mm-hmm.
39:41He just decided he didn't want to defend the people right there anymore because we didn't have the capacity anymore.
39:48Okay.
39:49So the controversy for Milosevic largely in the West is that he's too nationalistic.
39:52Actually, he's not.
39:54In Serbia.
39:54He's not that nationalist.
39:55Okay.
39:55He's not that nationalist.
39:56In Serbia, the people that are leading the country, their kind of nationalism is more calculated.
40:07Milosevic, he was a socialist.
40:09In 1986, he had the mission to go to Kosovo to give the speech.
40:15And the speech was about talking to Serbs to be patient, to ignore all the bad things happening to Serbs.
40:27Because, you know, from 1960s, Croatians already wanted their independence.
40:32Mm-hmm.
40:33From 1980s, the violence against Serbs in Kosovo already started.
40:37Okay.
40:38But because Belgrade had to make balance between Serbs and minorities, they just simply decided not to see those crimes.
40:48They just simply decided they want to act like nothing happened.
40:52And they're like more and more Serbs being killed.
40:55Then you got mothers driving their cars all the way from Kosovo to Belgrade directly to the parliament to talk
41:02about how their kids were killed.
41:05And government says, you know what?
41:07We just didn't see that happen.
41:08And they didn't allow newspapers all around Yugoslavia to talk about that.
41:13And the less the central government does, the more, like, resentment the local communities feel towards the…
41:20Yeah.
41:20Okay.
41:20Because they were trying to find the balance between Serbs and minorities that already wanted their separation.
41:29So, during 1980s, Serbs said that Yugoslavia was harmful for Serbs.
41:36Minority said that Yugoslavia was harmful for minority.
41:40The whole balance was totally destroyed after Tito's death.
41:44It was dysfunctional.
41:45And because of that kind of pressure, because Serbs on Kosovo were really in a very bad position during that
41:55time, that triggered the nationalism in the Serbian population, but not in the elite.
42:02Okay.
42:02But not in the elite.
42:04Yeah.
42:04And in 1986, Milosevic, he had to give that speech to say, you know what, Serbs, you should, like, be
42:11patient.
42:11And then he got the support from the nationalists, even though he himself was not a nationalist.
42:18Right.
42:18And then after that, if you go back to his speech in 1989, which was, like, one of the biggest
42:24speeches in Serbian history.
42:27Mm-hmm.
42:28If you keep attention to his every word, and if you try to analyze whole speech, not only parts of
42:37the speech when he says the Serbian nation is the great nation.
42:41Mm-hmm.
42:41When he says all nations should live equally in Yugoslavia, Yugoslavia is our homeland, blah, blah, blah.
42:50You can see, like, silence in the crowd.
42:53He was balancing in the speech, because at the same time, he had to keep Serbia united.
43:00When you were talking about Milosevic's position leading up to 1989, or even, like, at the speech at 1989, which
43:07I did not know before this, it reminded me of what I felt the tension around Taiwan is in China.
43:13Because a lot of people, like, I think if you're in the West and you're watching the situation in the
43:17mainland, and you would think that the kind of very aggressive attitudes that the Chinese Communist Party have against the
43:26government in Taiwan is manufactured by the government.
43:29But I often tell whatever people, like, who's saying that, it's very much the opposite.
43:34If you talk to most Chinese who is even, like, remotely considered patriotic or nationalist in China, they would have
43:42a much more aggressive, much more, quote-unquote, right-wing attitude towards what the mainland militarily should do to the
43:50island.
43:50And it's very much the central government's keeping that nationalist attitude in check by, like, kind of pouring cold water
43:56down on this attitude.
43:58So, like, when you're saying Milosevic is kind of doing the same thing with regard to Serbian nationalists, that reminded
44:03me a lot of what's happening here in China.
44:06I think for a lot of Chinese audiences, when they're watching your video on Bilibili, it's reacting a very sensitive
44:15part of their brain.
44:16Because even though, like you said, Serbia is a relatively small country compared to China, but I think it looms
44:22very large in Chinese, not just regular citizens, but the specific segment of the citizens who are very online, the
44:31people who are paying attention to international news, it's reacting a part of their brain that goes all the way
44:37back to 1999.
44:38I think there's an emotional connection there because of the Belgrade embassy bombing.
44:43And for those who don't know, in 1999, during the NATO bombing of Serbia, during the bombing of Belgrade, the
44:51U.S. dropped a precision-guided bomb on the Belgrade Chinese embassy.
44:56Five bombs.
44:56Five bombs.
44:57Five bombs.
44:58Five bombs.
44:59Injured dozens, killed three Chinese journalists who were resting in the basement.
45:03And there was an official explanation of what happened.
45:06They used the wrong map.
45:08It was an old map that says there was a weapons storage at the location where the embassy was.
45:14But there are debates, and I know you've covered this on your Bilibili channel.
45:18There are debates on whether that's legitimate or not.
45:20It was widely believed that for one reason or another, and people disagree over this, it was an intentional bombing
45:26of the Chinese embassy.
45:28And I think that emotional core tied many Chinese people to the sufferings and the kind of things that are
45:36going through with regarding to the Serbian society.
45:38And when people hear Serbia, they have this kind of very emotional connection.
45:43I want to ask you, do you think that's projection from the Chinese side when they think Serbians also have
45:50similar attitudes towards China?
45:52Or do you think there's a genuine emotional bond nowadays between the Serbs and the Chinese?
45:57It depends on who you are talking to.
46:01Okay.
46:02In Serbia, the situation is pretty divided, but people are mostly for China.
46:11If you're talking to those that have too many bonds with the Western countries, they're not going to like China
46:19that much.
46:19But most people, they treat China as a friend.
46:26Sometimes I really do find that the emotional level on two sides is different.
46:31I can feel that Chinese people love Serbia more than Serbian people love China, if you are talking broadly.
46:41But in Serbia, the majority still really likes China, and you can find many people that love China and want
46:47to live in China.
46:48And the turning point for many Serbian people is when they come to China.
46:54Because now we have direct flight.
46:56Now we have a visa-free regime.
46:59So when a Serbian person comes to China, and when he sees, when he or she sees that unique emotion,
47:12then he really starts to love China.
47:14I saw many of these kind of turning points.
47:17Like when you ask one normal Serbian person what he thinks about China, he says, you know, that's a big
47:23country.
47:24That's a great friend of Serbia.
47:25They have big investments in Serbia.
47:28They helped us a lot.
47:30They helped us when we needed.
47:32They were here when we were bombed.
47:33We were bombed together.
47:35You can feel like some sense of the emotion there, but not that kind of high emotion that you can
47:42feel in China.
47:43Okay.
47:44But when that same person comes to China, and when he realizes that every single Chinese person knows Tito, knows
47:54Milosevic, knows Vucic, knows our history, knows all the details.
47:59And when he feels that the Chinese ordinary taxi driver respects you, then he starts to love China.
48:06That's interesting.
48:07Because I think when we speak to a lot of Chinese people, and when they mention Serbia, all they mention
48:12the 1999 Belgrade bombing.
48:14And I think part of the reason why the bombing resonated so much is not just that three Chinese people
48:19were killed, but it was also like two things, right?
48:22On one hand, Yugoslavia used to be one of the socialist countries that China was relatively close with.
48:27And people forget that Sino-Soviet split was real.
48:33It loomed large in people's psychology, having a nuclear power that militarily powerful sitting just across the northern border for
48:42so long.
48:43And Yugoslavia, people watched their movies.
48:45They saw delegations from Yugoslavia coming visit China.
48:48And also, I think it's the sense of besiegement.
48:52The sense that China felt it was besieged by the West in the 2000s, in the 2010s.
48:58And in 1999, they felt that the Serbian people felt similarly and more directly, more brutally against NATO when the
49:07country was bombed.
49:07You know, about this part, do you know when service really starts to feel the Chinese emotions?
49:15When?
49:17I had this situation way too many times.
49:20Let me give you one specific example.
49:22A few months ago, there was a business delegation coming to Shanghai.
49:26And then I decided to take that business delegation to the memorial of the first CPC Congress.
49:35That's right here in Shanghai?
49:36Right here in Shanghai.
49:37It's not far from here.
49:39I just told them, if you want to understand China, you should understand Chinese Communist Party.
49:45It's not far from here.
49:47It's a very beautiful area.
49:49It's also one of the business centers in Shanghai nowadays.
49:51Yeah.
49:52So why don't go and see it?
49:55They said, okay, fine.
49:56Let's go.
49:57Because they also had communists in their families.
50:00They also had the World War II veterans.
50:04And when they got into the memorial, that center, they were fully shocked.
50:10When they saw the history from the 1840s, when they saw the history from the early 1900s, when they saw
50:20the history from World War II, when they realized that actually for China, the World War II started in 1931,
50:271933.
50:27Yeah.
50:28When they see what actually Japanese did to China.
50:31And when that brings those memories, what the Germans did to us, what we suffered during the Ottoman times, what
50:38we suffered during the 1990s, that emotion kicks in.
50:42And then they start to realize why Serbia and China are bound together.
50:47The real problem in Serbia is the media.
50:52We have the Western narrative in our media.
50:56The media is too fragmented.
50:59People just simply live on mobile platforms every day.
51:02They cannot sit down and really focus.
51:05TikTok is everywhere.
51:06Instagram is everywhere.
51:08And we don't have that many serious TV shows and YouTube channels that talk about these things.
51:16But when you bring these things to the people, then people start to realize, give me a second.
51:22Although we are a small country and China is a big country, we really do have many similarities.
51:29Because people in Serbia mostly see Chinese investments and see the Chinese superpower on media.
51:37They don't see this kind of emotional stuff.
51:39And when people ask me, how do you feel as a Serb in China?
51:44I said to them, you know what?
51:46No American or no French is going to feel how I feel as a Serb.
51:51I mean, you can feel that they respect you.
51:56And I usually tell my Serbian people, you should respect that respect.
52:01You should give back the same respect.
52:03And of course, you should know more about the history.
52:07Because when you dig deep into the history, the Chinese history, you'll find those similarities and find a reason why
52:14they respect us and why we should respect them.
52:17Because that's the fact what you said.
52:19I don't feel the same emotional level on the average perspective.
52:26Right, right.
52:27When I talk to the older generations, for example, I saw there was one taxi driver.
52:32He even has the photo of President Xi.
52:38You have these kind of people that really love China.
52:41Wait, the taxi driver in Serbia?
52:42In Serbia.
52:43Oh, wow.
52:43In Serbia, yeah.
52:44That's great.
52:45Like older generation has that emotional level towards China.
52:49Like people that are older than like 55 years, more than 55 years.
52:54Right.
52:54These people, they have because they went through the hardest times in Yugoslavia.
53:01They're educated.
53:02They love to read.
53:03They know a lot about China.
53:08But younger generation, my generation, for example, when I talk to a young man or young lady in China that
53:19is 30 years old, she or he feels the emotions towards Serbia.
53:24Right.
53:24Because those memories and those stories about the NATO bombing of the Chinese embassy, they appear every year.
53:32Right.
53:32It's kept in both the popular culture and also the academic sort of culture.
53:36Yeah.
53:36But when I talk to some Serbian young kids, 18, 19 years old, and some people are even like living
53:45in that area of Belgrade.
53:47Right.
53:48And when I asked them, you know, this is a Chinese cultural center.
53:50They said, yeah, yeah.
53:51This is a nice building.
53:52I love it.
53:52I have been inside.
53:53And when I asked, do you know that this was actually the place where the Chinese embassy was bombed?
53:59They said no.
54:00Oh, wow.
54:02Like this is how shallow the history of education is nowadays in this age.
54:12Right.
54:13This is what I think really has to be done more properly with the younger generation.
54:18Because people to people exchange is not only about the language.
54:22It's not only about the investment.
54:23It's about the mutual respect and mutual understanding.
54:26And the mutual understanding comes from...
54:29Appreciation of history.
54:30Appreciation of history.
54:31And I think it's such a missed opportunity, not just in Serbia, but also in many, many other countries in
54:35both the global south.
54:37We are the country that started the non-alliance movement.
54:41Right.
54:41One of those three countries.
54:43We are a developing country.
54:45I don't think Serbia should even be the EU country.
54:49We are not a part of the EU family.
54:52We are part of Europe, but not part of EU.
54:57Right.
54:57We are culturally Europeans, but we are spiritually fighting against hegemony.
55:04Right.
55:04And the countries that are fighting against hegemony are the third world countries, are the countries of the non-aligned
55:09movement, are the developing countries.
55:11Right.
55:11Our GDP per person is $13,000.
55:16Right.
55:17Like, that's the typical developing country.
55:20Right.
55:21Which is maybe not that far from the bottom line of developed country, but still we have a long way
55:28to go.
55:29Yeah.
55:29Right.
55:30And the non-aligned movement, like...
55:33Oh, that was amazing.
55:34People think it's such a long time ago, but it's...
55:3850 years.
55:38Yeah.
55:39It's 50 years ago.
55:4050, 60 years.
55:40Yeah.
55:41Yeah.
55:41We have to talk to young people in Indonesia, for example.
55:45Yeah.
55:45The movement was totally crushed by the Suharto government.
55:50And even that was not taught in Indonesian history now.
55:55I did not know this until, like, we interviewed a person who grew up in, like, the public school system
55:59in Indonesia.
56:00She's ethnic Chinese, and her ancestors were in the circles that were targeted during the transition of the regimes.
56:10And everything happened related to that, which was well-documented by Vincent Bevins in a very fantastic book recently published
56:18called The Jakarta Method.
56:20It was just not known in Indonesia.
56:23And I think the stories you said about how a Serbian person walking across from the bombed embassy, not recognizing
56:33it, was, like, 25, 26 years ago.
56:36That's so...
56:37I don't want to use the word typical, but so representative.
56:39And you even had the memorial stone talking about three journalists killed here.
56:47And they just don't pay attention on that.
56:50Right.
56:50The kind of historical amnesia, I think, if we can correct that, it will be a huge service to not
56:59just the memories of the non-aligned movement, but also the future of how the world can look like after
57:05American hegemony has ended.
57:10And this was another episode of China Now, a show that opens a window to the present and future of
57:17the Asian giant.
57:18Hope you enjoy it.
57:20See you next time.
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