00:10Hi, welcome back to Consider This. I'm Melissa Idris. Let's continue our conversation about
00:14ocean literacy and whether a more ocean literate society will make better decisions for the
00:21future of our seas. Joining me now from the Philippines, I have Anna Orposa, who is the
00:26co-founder of Save Philippine Seas and she's also a member of UNESCO's Group of Experts for Ocean
00:32Literacy for the Westpac region. Anna, thank you so much for joining us on the show. Let's take a look
00:38at the Philippines scenario. It's an archipelago and I'm just wondering whether you have found
00:45that people automatically become more ocean literate if they are living so close to the sea.
00:52First of all, thank you, Melissa, for having me here. I'm so excited. Any chance I get to talk
00:57about the ocean is a thrill. But to answer your question, it's actually very strange how in the
01:05Philippines, we're the second largest archipelago after Indonesia. We're made up of 7,600 islands
01:11and yet there is still so much unknown about the sea and a lot of people are afraid to be
01:19in the sea
01:19or are afraid of being or afraid of swimming. And generally, we don't really feel that connected
01:27to the sea compared to other, let's say, Pacific islands that I've worked in.
01:33Right. Okay. So talk to me about your experience then. I noticed that you have, you've been called
01:39Chief Mermaid of your NGO. What motivated you to dedicate your career to ocean advocacy?
01:50Actually, growing up, there was never a plan to work in marine conservation. If you had asked
01:5613-year-old Anna what her dream would be, it would be to be on Broadway. That was the goal.
02:02But my dad's an environmental lawyer. So I grew up exposed to a lot of environmental issues,
02:09illegal fishing, deforestation, all of these kinds of environmental issues.
02:16And I'm also a scuba diver. I became a scuba diver when I was 15. So that was really my
02:21way of falling
02:23in love with the sea. But I never expected it to be a career. But then after college, I was
02:29trying to
02:29look for a real job. And then I ended up co-founding the social media movement, mostly because I was
02:37bored
02:37and I had the time to do it. There was this illegal case that was in the news. And then
02:43people who were
02:44active on Twitter got together and started a hashtag called Save PHCs. And that's how it started.
02:50And tell me where sharks came in. Because, you know, sharks, a lot of people fear sharks, no thanks to
02:57that movie,
02:57Jaws. But you think it is a powerful ambassador for ocean literacy. Talk to me about why you have, yeah,
03:07why sharks and how do you turn an animal that many people are afraid of into an ambassador for conservation?
03:15Yeah, that's a great question. I got into sharks because as a diver, you want to see sharks. So
03:21they're very rare to see underwater. So when you get to see one, it's like a very special experience.
03:27And as a diver, I was able to see sharks and see for myself that they aren't scary. And I
03:34guess on a
03:34personal level, I like challenges. I like it when people say, you can't do that, or it's going to be
03:41too hard. There's a part of me that's like, really? Okay, I'm going to show you I can do it.
03:46So when people were saying, you know, sharks are hard to advocate for, that's what kind of pushed me
03:53to work harder. And we have to show people that there are more kinds of sharks in race than
04:00jaws, than great white sharks. A whale shark is a shark, a treasure shark is a shark. There are so
04:09many
04:10sharks. And they actually swim away when they see you. So that's part of teaching people not to be
04:17afraid, showing them videos, showing them photos, and then also explaining how important sharks are
04:24in the economy and ecology. And then they start to change their mind and think, oh, then maybe I was
04:29thinking about it all wrong. And once we develop that love for them, or that appreciation for them,
04:35then the chances of us catching them or eating them might be a little bit less.
04:41And this is all kind of indirectly expanding someone's ocean literacy, right? When you work with,
04:48say, Philippine Seas, talk to me about what you have discovered when you are in this process of
04:55teaching people. What have you learned about what people connect with in terms of ocean issues? And
05:01what makes people not connect with ocean issues?
05:05That's a great question. And I always think about this because knowledge is never enough. I mean,
05:11I think about dieting. You know that these certain foods are not good for you, but you still eat them.
05:17But similarly, you know that there are decisions you make in life that are not good,
05:21not necessarily good for the environment, or in fact, are harming the environment, but we do it
05:25for different reasons, right? And what I've learned is that one, knowledge is not enough,
05:32but two, you have to make it easy for people to do certain behaviors or to fall in love with
05:37the sea.
05:38And in, say, Philippine Seas, we do that by creating programs that are fun, that are accessible,
05:45that are free, that people can be part of, and the barriers are lower. Because sometimes I think when
05:52you think about marine conservation, people get very intimidated, like, oh, I'm not a scientist,
05:57I can't, I can't join, or I don't have a degree in marine biology, I can't be part of your
06:03movement.
06:03But the thing is, I'm an English major, I started out as a theater kid, but now I'm leading a
06:10movement.
06:10So if I can do it, then definitely anyone can do it.
06:14Can I ask you, Anna, you know, this is a, sometimes I've noticed that environmental campaigns
06:20tend to, I guess, focus a lot on fear and crisis, and we are living in an age of the
06:27climate crisis.
06:28Do you think those messages still work? Do this, the idea of fear, does that actually make people
06:36change their behaviors, care enough to take action?
06:39Yes, to a certain extent, but then when you repeat that doom and gloom messaging,
06:46that hopelessness messaging, it stops working, and people also get numb about it.
06:53So with, say, Philippine Seas, if you look at our Instagram, if you look at our social media,
06:57we always refer to, like, we make pop culture references, we make things hopeful,
07:04we present ways that people can act, because action is the way to combat hopelessness.
07:10And when you keep saying, we're in a bad situation, which we are, I mean, there's no sugarcoating that,
07:17but you also have to give people options to be able to empower themselves to date action.
07:23And is it the youth that gives you hope that young people, this next generation,
07:29they're the ones who will become an ocean-literate society and take action and protect the seas?
07:37Yes, but it's never too late to be an advocate for the seas, right?
07:42We call our community citizens.
07:44It's a play on the word citizen, because we don't think that it should just be limited to youth
07:50or limited to coastal communities or limited to people who can afford certain opportunities.
07:56Anyone can be a citizen.
07:58And I work a lot with young people.
08:01And yes, there is a different kind of energy.
08:03There's a different kind of earnestness and sincerity when you're working with young people.
08:09But then there's also wisdom to learn from older people, from experienced people.
08:15So everyone is welcome and everyone has their own role.
08:19We work a lot with teachers who are in the middle-aged demographic,
08:24and still they're an incredible audience to engage.
08:28And how do you work with the policymakers in your country?
08:34I'm wondering, because in my conversation a little earlier that was raised,
08:39that maybe sometimes scientists tend not to work closely enough with NGOs who are on the ground
08:45doing wonderful advocacy, and policymakers and government agencies tend to be in their own little silo
08:51and may not have the scientific knowledge or even awareness about ocean issues.
08:56How do you see all these different moving parts, all the stakeholders who clearly care,
09:01how do you see them working together?
09:03What's your experience been, Anna?
09:05I consider myself a dot connector.
09:08It's something that comes naturally to me.
09:10People who have worked with me will tell you that I'm a very people person,
09:14and I'm very extroverted, and I'm the kind of person who will,
09:18like one minute it's a stranger, and then the next minute they're like my best friend,
09:22and I'm already exchanging numbers with them.
09:25But that's just naturally how I am.
09:27So when I entered marine conservation, I didn't have a strategy like,
09:32oh, I need to work with policymakers, scientists, but it came naturally.
09:37When I work on a project, then you see the gaps, right?
09:40Oh, we need policies.
09:41We need data.
09:43We need people to act.
09:45So it just evolved organically that we needed to reach out to certain stakeholders,
09:50stakeholders, and it's so important to build trust among these different stakeholders also,
09:56because like you said, some people will not be in the same room when, for example,
10:00this corporation is there.
10:02This NGO will not show up.
10:04But because I have relationships with both, and I have to bring both together,
10:09like I facilitated, for example, a dialogue or a consultation with stakeholders with very
10:16different perspectives, but I have to make sure that I create a safe space and that everybody
10:21feels like they can say what they need to say, and my job is to protect everyone's perspective.
10:28So that's the kind of stuff I enjoy that I feel like people will run away from.
10:34But to me, it's like, okay, how do I make sure everyone feels heard and everyone feels valid?
10:39Right.
10:40And your work with this UNESCO, as part of the UNESCO Group of Experts for Ocean Literacy,
10:45what are you hoping to achieve through this?
10:49This is a wonderful platform.
10:51It's international, and you're looking at the kind of entire Western Pacific region,
10:56working together with other experts.
10:58How are you hoping to leverage this opportunity, Anna?
11:01Yeah, I think it was late last year, or last year, we had this online call where the different
11:08experts presented the state of ocean literacy in their own countries.
11:12And actually, I came out of that conversation kind of jealous at how, but jealous like in
11:21a positive way, because it got me inspired.
11:23The Philippines doesn't have an official ocean literacy framework.
11:26We don't have an official ocean literacy, let's say, module.
11:31But that, to me, is actually an opportunity to learn from the other experts in the group.
11:38And after that call, I messaged my team, and I was like, we need to make this part of our
11:43agenda in the next few years.
11:45We need to have an ocean literacy framework or some kind of policy that will really make
11:52Filipinos be inspired to care about the ocean.
11:56I'm excited to see that come to fruition in the next few years.
12:00Anna, thank you so much for being on the show with me.
12:02I appreciate your time.
12:03Anna Oposa there from Save Philippines Seas.
12:07And that wraps up this episode of Consider This.
12:10I'm Melissa Idris, signing off for the evening.
12:12Thank you so much for watching, and good night.
12:28You
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