- 3 months ago
- #considerthis
The provisional dissolution of the Malaysian Trades Union Congress (MTUC) has raised questions about the future of worker representation in Malaysia. This development also shines a spotlight on a broader issue: why has unionisation remained low in Malaysia for decades, and what could this mean for workers, especially at a time when gig work is expanding, wage growth remains a concern, and workers face new challenges from automation AI. On #ConsiderThis Melisa Idris speaks with Andrew Lo, CEO of the Sarawak Bank Employees Union and Deputy President of Labour Solidarity & Learning Resources Association.
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00:10Hello, welcome back to Consider This. I'm Melissa Idris. Let's continue our discussion
00:15about the provisional dissolution of the Malaysian Trades Union Congress, MTUC, and the future
00:21of worker representation in Malaysia. Joining me now is Andrew Lowe, who is the CEO of the
00:27Sarawak Bank Employees Union. He's also the Deputy President of the Labor Solidarity and Learning
00:34Resources Association. Andrew, thank you so much for being on the show with me today. Can we begin
00:39with the MTUC provisional dissolution? I understand that you were the Secretary for the MTUC Sarawak
00:47division. So talk to me about the importance of this moment. How should we, what practical impact
00:54do you think the provisional dissolution might have on worker representation in Malaysia?
01:00Well, first of all, good afternoon and thank you for having me. Your question, well, okay, where
01:10do I start? You know, yes, the provisional suspension of MQC has been, to put it mildly, a very, very
01:30significant, I think that's what event has happened. It has, it's going to create a lot of impact,
01:39the backlash, I think has been ongoing. But my first thoughts are, it is not actually surprising.
01:47Now, it may be surprising for you to hear me say that, having been the MTUC Sarawak Secretary for quite
01:57a long time,
01:58I have an intricate knowledge of the ins and outs of MTUC. So, while yes, it is sad, it's disappointing,
02:07and we tend to put blame, we point fingers at every party. Unfortunately, we are not very good at pointing
02:16fingers at ourselves.
02:17And I think this is the end result of years of not keeping our own house in order. I know
02:29it may be upsetting for quite a few of us to hear that, but I think the,
02:32if you actually look at the reasons for the provisional suspension, it's actually housekeeping issues.
02:40And if you cannot get that right, you know, I think that would be quite disappointing and quite a letdown
02:48for workers.
02:50Andrew, if I may just jump in here. There are some who would argue that MTUC was already kind of,
02:59had become less influential,
03:01long before this latest crisis. Would you say you agree with that?
03:06Yes, we have. And again, well, let's not point fingers, but I think this is a result of the significant
03:16changes in the way that the world of work has become,
03:20the way that the field of employment is not like 50, 60 years ago. You're talking about casual employment, you're
03:29talking about part-time employment,
03:31you took an off-site employment, and you look at new type of employment. I mean, a very good example
03:36is Greg for example, Greg driver.
03:38You have this, because IT led, IT driven, the whole world of work. The traditional field of employment, where you
03:45go into a big factory,
03:47I think part of the field there, but the most significant shift has been from a very concentrated work of
03:54place to a very diverse,
03:55and people don't work from home. So I think this is one of the significant impact on the traditional labor
04:04removal itself.
04:05And yes, to your question, yes, long before this, unions, MTUC, and not just in Malaysia, right, has been losing
04:14our impact, our influence,
04:18as far as in the drafting of labor policies, HR management is concerned. So yes, I agree with you.
04:26And what do you think needs to change? If we want to build a stronger labor movement in Malaysia, then
04:34can you point to specific areas that require structural reform?
04:43Well, to the credit, I think the government, and this is not just the current unity government or the previous,
04:51right, PH government.
04:53The government has actually embarked on a series of reforms as early as about 20, if my memory is telling
04:58me right, it's about 2021.
05:00I was part of that, you know, Pemandu. So there are a lot of significant reforms. That's why we have
05:06the, you know, minimum wage, right?
05:08And then we have the minimum retirement age. And then more recently, there are a lot of reforms and very,
05:14very significant reforms in the amendments to the Trade News Act,
05:18the Industrial Relations Act, the Industrial Relations Act. Apart from the others, even SOCSO has been not amended and improved.
05:28We have the, we have the Gate Workers Bill, and we have the Sabah Sarawak labor ordinance as well as
05:35employment.
05:35So the, so the legalistic, the structural and the reform has been there, and they're already in place. And this
05:43gives me hope,
05:43give us hope that with these reforms, then perhaps union leaders, workers, has opportunity now to grab the opportunity now
05:56to,
05:58to reset, start afresh. So in that sense, while we are set that the way the MQC is going, it
06:05is maybe, and hopefully, it's a wake up call,
06:08to say, hey, look, we cannot go on the way we are doing. It's time that we take a good
06:15look at all these things,
06:16do a reset, and make use of the right opportunities now to push the labor movement forward.
06:24Right. Is that, is that the conversation that you're hearing within, within those within unions?
06:31I'm just wondering, has the labor movement failed to communicate its relevance, its importance to workers?
06:40I think of an entire generation of younger Malaysian workers who have never interacted with the union.
06:45So has, why has organized labor become less visible to them, to this whole new generation of workers?
06:52You want to hear the hard truth? Yes. We have failed in what we are supposed to do. Basically,
06:59union leaders have spent more time inward looking. We spend more time fighting for scrap.
07:08I will criticize that we are very, very passionate about what we do, but sometimes we fail to see this,
07:14this, this, this big picture, and I think it's about time that we need to realize this. We fail to
07:20communicate to younger workers.
07:22We, we fail to communicate to the new type workers, and we also miss out on the woman,
07:28lady workers who now form a very, very cynical part of the, uh, uh, the workforce. So, but not always
07:36lost.
07:36I do not want to paint a gloom and doom picture. I think there are a lot of units out
07:40there.
07:41Uh, I know personally, I feel have been working very hard and looking at things in a more, um, progressive
07:48manner.
07:49And I think they will be successful. I think there are union and union organizations out there who have been
07:56successful in organizing new workers.
07:58Right. Um, I do not have the full data, but I think if you look at the end of the
08:03year, there will be a lot of new things.
08:06So, yes, the challenges are there, but I think more important thing is, um, while previously we can say that
08:13because of the, uh, previous labor laws,
08:17which are very strict, very restrictive, there is no more. We now have full freedom of association.
08:23We are no more restricted by the, by the way that we are organized. We, uh, now you can organize
08:29anyone you want, right?
08:31With certain procedural, um, requirements naturally, but there's no more restriction to now say that you cannot, that union who
08:39is in the bank and place where we are from.
08:41Oh.
08:42You can now recruit on organized members outside the low banking industry now. So that's very, very good opportunity. It's
08:50surprising. A lot of us still didn't know it.
08:52And this way I'm asking the HR ministry also to promote this more, to tell workers that, right, you are
08:59no longer restricted.
09:00That you do not need to be a bank employee to join the bank employees union, for example. Right?
09:06So we are much more open now. Okay. So, if that's the case, if there has been a loosening up
09:13of this, um, ability to, uh, try to join or even form a union,
09:17what then is stopping Malaysian workers from doing so? Because our unionization rates are so very low.
09:25It is low, but, uh, things are improving. All right. I will say that because of new things, things are
09:30improving.
09:31We got a lot of new, uh, new classes of members. But again, um, yes, member, uh, workers always suffer
09:39from this capacity building, right?
09:43We do not have the capacity in terms of funding, in terms of all these things. Yes, it's an excuse,
09:48right, naturally.
09:49But there are units out there, right? I do not want to mention them, but there are units who are
09:53doing a very, very wonderful job.
09:55And this gave me hope that this will drive the way forward. And there are also young leaders coming in.
10:01And the other significant impact is also now we, there is a recognition of migrant workers now that they need
10:09protection,
10:10they need union coverage. And the new law allows them. So I think there are huge opportunities.
10:16So I do not want to again say that everything is negative. And we do hope that, um, and that's
10:22why I'm very, very thankful that, uh, that you're inviting me to share this.
10:26And hopefully through events like this, we will spread the message more.
10:33Yes. And let's end on a, on a hopeful note then. You mentioned earlier in the conversation that this is
10:40the right time for a reset.
10:41Can you elaborate what exactly you would like to see union leaders reset so that there is better representation of
10:50Malaysian workers?
10:51We cannot do things the same old way, same old manner and hoping that things will change.
10:57And so the leaders themselves needs a reset as well, right?
11:00We cannot approach things the way we've been doing for past 50, 60 years and hoping and dreaming that things
11:06will just suddenly change.
11:07So there'll need to be a recognition, a very sincere, honest recognition of what we are doing, where we went
11:15wrong and how we can improve.
11:17And here we need to work. We cannot look in what you need to work with other organizations.
11:22We just say cannot workers issue is only unionized. There are so many other NGOs out there.
11:27There are so many very, uh, interested, very concerned people out there, which we can work together really.
11:33Uh, and I think that's where, and the other thing, maybe perhaps since, uh, if I got a little bit
11:38more time left, we talk about awareness.
11:41A lot of people are not aware. And this is where I think the government can come in as well
11:45in terms of creating awareness.
11:47And this way, one of my ideas is to, we need to push the concept of workers, industrial relations, um,
11:54uh, social harmony, uh, social development through the education system.
11:59Um, so when students come out, they are more aware of what is it.
12:03Cause right now we talk about, you know, everybody has this, ah, where did these are, you know, troublemakers.
12:10I've heard this through my life. So if we have, we can do a reset there as well in terms
12:14of our approach.
12:16Yes.
12:17And in terms of the fact, then we can make, bring traditional more into the mainstream.
12:21And then they can contribute, right, to, uh, to not just, uh, about jobs and salaries through increasing productivity.
12:31And thereby participate in the economic growth of the country.
12:35So I think that would be a good start.
12:37Thank you, Andrew, for sharing your insights with us.
12:40That was Andrew Lo from the Sarawak Bank Employees Union wrapping up this episode of Consider This.
12:46I'm Melissa Idris signing off for the evening.
12:48Thank you so much for watching.
12:49Thank you so much.
12:49And good night.
12:51Bye.
12:52Bye.
12:53Bye.
12:54Bye.
12:56Bye.
12:56Bye.
12:57Bye.
12:59Bye.
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