00:10Hello and good evening. I'm Melissa Idris. Welcome to Consider This.
00:14This is the show where we want you to consider and then you consider what you know after news of
00:18the day.
00:18The provisional dissolution of the Malaysian Trades Union Congress or MTUC
00:23has raised questions about the future of worker representation in Malaysia.
00:28But this development also shines a light on a broader issue.
00:32Why has unionization rates in Malaysia remained so low throughout the decades?
00:38And what could this mean for workers, especially at a time when gig work is expanding?
00:44Wage growth remains a concern and workers are facing new challenges with the likes of automation and AI.
00:52So joining me now to discuss unionization in Malaysia, I have V. Selvam, who is the co-founder of Parti
00:59Socialist Malaysia, PSM.
01:00He's also the co-founder of the community group, Suara Warga Perthiwi.
01:06Selvam, thank you so much for joining me on the show today.
01:08Let's begin our conversation with MTUC, the provisional dissolution of MTUC.
01:13Just how significant do you see this moment for Malaysia's labor movement?
01:20The question itself is somewhat paradoxical.
01:28To start off with, we have the rate of unionization is about 6% or less in the country.
01:396% or less and half of the workers unionized are only unionized in the name.
01:52They do not have a union which can bargain for the workers.
01:58That is, I'm talking about the public sector.
02:08The public sector has got about 3% of the workers unionized workers, but they are only in the name.
02:21When Mahadeh came in sometime in the 80s, he took away the bargaining rights of QPACs, the union, the federation
02:30of unions that represented, that represents the public workers.
02:35For the private sector, we have got 3% and less than half of that 3% do not have
02:44a collective agreement, which means they also do not have bargaining rights.
02:51The Employment Act specifically says that you cannot have any provision in their contract of employment to discourage or disallow
03:04workers from joining unions, any workers, including migrant workers.
03:10While that is good in the paper and good in the law, but in practice, that protection is never there.
03:26So, on one hand, you have got workers joining unions, but not able to get a collective agreement going, meaning
03:37that formation of a union is one process.
03:42You start off with the formation of the union, and the second process is the recognition of the union, of
03:50unions in general.
03:53All unions have to go through this process.
03:56And what happens at the stage of recognition, before recognition and after the registration of a trade union, is that
04:05where the whole trap is, meaning,
04:13unions do not get recognized.
04:15Right. Okay.
04:16If I may just interject here, I think there is a historical context to this as to why Malaysia's unionization
04:24rate has been so low.
04:25But maybe for our audience today, particularly for a younger audience who may not have had a lot of interaction
04:32with unions,
04:34can you explain why the link between weak unionization rates and stagnant wages as well as cost-of-living pressures?
04:46In the 40s, after some time in the late 30s, in the mid-30s and after,
04:56up to about 40, the year 1948, unions were very strong.
05:05We had strong unions and then came the emergency.
05:14And also, the trade union laws were enacted and enforced, meaning that all unions have to be registered.
05:26This was one approach taken by the colonial government then to dilute, to weaken the trade union movement.
05:38And also that at one point of time, you need to be in a union to enjoy what was fought
05:46for, for the workers at large.
05:48So what the government did, the British government did, they brought in this one person called John Brazier.
05:57John Brazier, to weaken the unions, meaning unions were taught how to co-exist with the British employers and also
06:12the state, the government.
06:15And what they did was, trade union workers, not only the trade union workers enjoyed whatever that was fought for
06:25by the trade unions,
06:26every worker was, were given the same privileges or incentives or whatever that was fought for by the work, the
06:38unions.
06:38So that itself was a diluting situation, meaning that you don't have to be in a union to enjoy what
06:48was fought for by the trade unions.
06:52So that was the start.
06:54After that was the Trade Union Act itself.
06:57Okay, so Selvam, are you saying that the structural issues around, I guess, the obstacles in unionizing in Malaysia has
07:09made for such weak rates?
07:11Now, can we talk a little bit about what a stronger labor movement might look like in Malaysia?
07:22We, we, we really don't have any more strong unions.
07:26You, you have the Trade Union Act, which doesn't allow workers to go on a stride.
07:33And you have the Industrial Agents Law, which allows for picket.
07:39Picket is about the only weapon that is left for the workers.
07:42And you can only picket for trade disputes.
07:47You can't, you can't engage the, the weapons or the tools that are available to the workers,
08:00which is simply the picket and strike.
08:05The right to strike has been taken off, literally.
08:10So without that, uh, you, you can't question, uh, the, the management prerogatives that is the, basically, the hire and
08:23fire issue,
08:26which is the key contentious issues, cannot be fought by the workers.
08:32They can't go on a strike.
08:34I mean, that, that is very, uh, it is almost, it's, it's there on paper, but taken off.
08:41And for you to go on a strike, there are the procedures and the laws, in the laws that are
08:48there,
08:49which makes going on a strike, uh, just not possible.
08:54And you have pickets, and pickets has been, has been classified as legal and non-legal and illegal pickets.
09:05So if, uh, illegal pick, I mean, pickets, pickets, you don't do it during the working time, working hours.
09:13And you only do it after working hours or during a big time.
09:17Even that has been classified as legal and illegal.
09:22With that, uh, what else do you do?
09:27And what, what else can be done is go back in.
09:33And, uh, with no equipment tools to find, you are just at the whim, at the, at the, at the,
09:42at the mercy of the, of the employers and the state.
09:47Yeah.
09:48Okay.
09:49So where do we go from here?
09:50We have the provisional dissolution of MTUC and MTUC really served as the country's, um,
09:57principal labor force representation, right?
09:59Uh, at the, um, at the national level, at international levels, representing workers and workers' voices.
10:06So with the provisional dissolution of MTUC, where do we go from here?
10:10We've heard about how weak unions are in Malaysia.
10:14And are we now at an even weaker point?
10:17So what is the way forward, uh, Selvam?
10:19Uh, well, uh, MTUC, MTUC was formed to, to break the strength of the unions.
10:30Unions before MTUC were represented by the PMFTU, the Pan Malaya Federation of Trade Unions.
10:39That was the, uh, period where trade unions were strong and they enjoyed good membership up to 60% of
10:48the workers were unionized then.
10:51And they fought for more than workers' rights.
10:55They even went into the political sphere of fighting for the independence of the country as well.
11:00So now with, you can't really do anything.
11:03And with that, you, and MTUC is the creation of John Brazier, as I said earlier.
11:10And MTUC, the acronym, uh, you know, in the activist circle, we call MTUC, MT, MT, Kosong.
11:20You see, you see it is Kosong.
11:22You know, that, that was what we see MTUC as, and even that has been taken away or it has
11:33just disappeared.
11:34I mean, the disappearing of MTUC or the suspension of MTUC was not really a government's doing.
11:41It was the infighting within MTUC, which has caused the suspension.
11:48So what, what being in MTUC leadership is, is, uh, your representation in the tripide, tripide, uh, system where workers,
11:58employers, and the state sit down to, to, to discuss, uh,
12:03uh, what is good and what is bad for the workers in terms of law and, and, uh, and, and
12:12besides that tripide system, representation at the tripide system is, uh, your SOCSO board and the EPF board and so
12:22on.
12:23So, otherwise, what, what is good about MTUC's presence, I really don't know.
12:30Oh, dear.
12:31All right, Selvam, I'm going to have to end on that point, but I thank you for, uh, sharing your
12:36insights with us.
12:37That was V. Selvam, co-founder of a party, Socialist Malaysia, and Suara Warga Bertiwi.
12:42We're going to take a quick break here on Consider This.
12:44We'll be back with more on unionization in Malaysia.
12:47Stay tuned.
12:47We'll be back with more on unionization in Malaysia.
12:51We'll be back with more on unionization in Malaysia.
12:51We'll be back with more on unionization in Malaysia.
12:52We'll be back with more on unionization in Malaysia.
12:53We'll be back with more on unionization in Malaysia.
12:53We'll be back with more on unionization in Malaysia.
12:55We'll be back with more on unionization in Malaysia.
12:56We'll be back with more on unionization in Malaysia.
12:57We'll be back with more on unionization in Malaysia.
12:57We'll be back with more on unionization in Malaysia.
12:57We'll be back with more on unionization in Malaysia.
12:58You
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