- 3 hours ago
The morning after Slayyyter made her late-night debut on The Tonight Show with the viral single "Dance...," the pop phenom joined writer Larisha Paul in The Rolling Stone Studio for a conversation about the breakthrough year she thought would never come. After years of losing money on tours and achieving minor successes, the artist born Catherine Grace Garner decided she would make one last album before calling it quits. 'Worst Girl In America' turned out to be her golden ticket. Slayyyter spent the first weekend after its release performing to an overflowing crowd at Coachella. They raged along to "Crank" and "YES GODDD" and took in her Tumblr-inspired graphics during “Brittany Murphy” and “Gas Station." A few months after the festival, Slayyyter tells us she's in the process of making new music inspired by the sudden influx of attention she’s received. A quiet life back home in Missouri doesn’t seem to be in the cards for Slayyyter anymore. The spotlight is calling.
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00:00I just wanted to approach this music and be down to get ugly, be down to get gross.
00:05I'm a huge horror fan. I love horror movies. I love body horror.
00:08Like, I saw The Substance, like, six times in theaters or something absurd.
00:11And I'm not kidding when I say that. That's not an exaggeration. Like, legit, six times in theaters.
00:20Slater, welcome to the Rolling Stones studio.
00:23I'm so thrilled to have you here. You played that one last night.
00:25I did, yeah.
00:26Yeah.
00:27Let's get into that first. How was that as your first, like, late night debut?
00:31It was crazy. I was really honored. I feel like that's one of the things you dream about when you're
00:37young.
00:37And my mom watched and everyone's been hitting me up about it. It was really cool.
00:41Really cool thing to do. I've never even been on TV at all before, so it felt like a cool
00:45kind of first time, first thing to do.
00:48Come on, that's how you do it, Slater!
00:51It's interesting, too, because I think there's this element of there used to be so many places for artists to
00:57go perform on TV or, like, a promo cycle would include so many more performances than is what's expected now.
01:04Like, people used to perform at Walmart and, like, wherever there was a stage.
01:08It was, like, get on the stage.
01:09Parking malls, the mall, yeah.
01:10Yeah, and promote your music. How have you found it kind of not having that as an outlet or, like,
01:17a way of reaching new audiences?
01:19Everything's so different now in music, in the music industry. Promotional cycles for albums are so different.
01:25When I was younger, everything felt so much different. There was a lot more, like, physical media.
01:31People would release singles, like, on CD, which is crazy to think about. Like, who's doing that now, you know?
01:37Maybe I should do that, honestly. But I just think the whole live performance factor of my artist project is
01:47such a big thing.
01:48Everything I make in the studio, I, like, make it with the intention of performing it live, and I make
01:52certain choices because I'm like, wow, that will really hit off live.
01:55It's not just supposed to live on streaming or, like, live in, you know, just as, like, music that you
02:01listen to.
02:02So it's really important to me to kind of, like, you know, I think Coachella was a big moment, and
02:06Fallon last night felt like a big moment just because the music has such a liveness to it that it
02:11needs to be, like, performed, you know?
02:13Coachella felt like a major moment. I think even just being in the crowd there, you got a sense that
02:17there was, like, something really special happening.
02:19And I think especially for people who had never seen you before, it was a lot of, it was, like,
02:24a nice palette of what your range is as an artist, I would say.
02:28It wasn't just, like, I'm going to get up here and sing these songs and they're all going to sound
02:31kind of the same, but a little bit different.
02:33But it was, like, really from one thing to the next thing, Yes God, Beat Up Chanel, like, everything felt
02:38like its own really specific, unique thing.
02:41Yeah, it was the debut of the band, too. I've never performed with a band before, so it was kind
02:46of our first time performing together.
02:48And the whole, you know, we only did songs from the new album. I didn't really do anything old.
02:54I kind of wanted to make a statement of this is the now, this is the project, like, this is
03:01this project for me.
03:03Everything is different now. And it felt really good. There was something in the air that day.
03:07It felt really different from anything I've done before and, you know, felt like a very cool moment, very magical
03:12moment.
03:13Something that's been, like, very game-changing. Everything feels different since the Coachella thing.
03:16You know, it's been kind of crazy.
03:18You better give me everything you got, Coachella!
03:21How has your relationship changed with those earlier records, especially watching what Worst Girl in America has been able to,
03:29kind of, where it's been able to take you?
03:30I still love all my old music. I don't really want to do, like, I don't want to turn around
03:36and, like, because that, you know, all that music felt like building blocks to kind of figuring out my sound.
03:41And it took me a long time. There isn't, you know, there's no, like, artist development, like, phase that people
03:48have anymore.
03:49That kind of is, like, the old industry way of doing things.
03:52So all of my early projects that felt like developing myself, developing my sound, there's little glimmers of Worst Girl
03:59in America on early projects, too, with, like, self-destruct or random things.
04:02But I think I just needed time to figure out my visual, what I wanted with my visual identity, saying
04:09no to things that don't feel like my visual identity, and, like, not feeling like I'm hurting someone's feelings.
04:13I feel like that was really big.
04:14I would kind of just be like, yeah, sure, like, I'll wear that, I'll do this.
04:18And I think I just learned so much with that older music that it helped me kind of stand firm,
04:23and I wouldn't be able to make this album.
04:25This could have never been my debut album, you know what I mean?
04:28So it took me a while to get here.
04:30But, yeah, there's, like, there's certain songs from my catalog that make me cringe a little bit, but I don't
04:35need – if someone likes that, though, like, I don't want to rain on their parade, you know?
04:39Every – you know, I'm sure I love songs that an artist might hate, like, you know, themselves, but, yeah.
04:44When you say it couldn't have been your debut, does it feel like one, in a sense?
04:49Kind of, kind of.
04:50Everything – like, Coachella felt like a debut.
04:52Last night felt – that was, like, my TV debut.
04:54Everything feels like the first time that I'm doing – it's, like, it is the first time I'm doing all
04:59these things, but it kind of does feel like a – like, I'm kind of, like, reintroducing myself to people.
05:06Or some people are hearing about me for the first time now, so it kind of just feels all really
05:09fresh and new and different, even though I'm almost 30.
05:11And it's so far from where I was when I started music.
05:15I think that's what I was thinking about a lot, just kind of looking at what the last month and
05:20a half, two months of your careers look like from an outside perspective is this idea of – when you're
05:25expanding your audience, there's kind of this natural element of comparison that comes with that.
05:29Because people, in order to understand something new, they're going to try to find something that they're familiar with to
05:34say, okay, so this is kind of like this, and not necessarily to discredit you, but to understand you.
05:40Yeah.
05:40That's how that happens.
05:41And so with the Coachella stuff, you think about, like, Chapel's festival run, and there's been – there's, like, a
05:46post-brat kind of understanding with the Charlie.
05:49And I'm curious, from your perspective, what has been – maybe not the hardest part, but what has it been,
05:54like, kind of navigating that introduction or that reintroduction to a lot of people without having that be the thing
06:00that overshadows your arrival?
06:02I mean, I don't mind it too much.
06:04I feel like I always do my own thing, and I think it's just human nature to need, like, familiarity
06:12to kind of grasp onto something new.
06:15I feel like I've had comparisons since I started, you know, with all kinds of different things, genres, artists, but
06:21just this album and the way I've been making my visuals and stuff, you can't really compare it to anything.
06:27I mean, in my opinion, I guess, but I think trajectory-wise, though, I do understand, especially with, like, you
06:34know, I think Chapel, like, her first – it felt like Coachella was such a moment that kind of led
06:38to this big breakthrough.
06:39So, like, I understand people – it's, like, more about, like, the trajectory, not so much the – like, the
06:44project itself.
06:46And I love her music.
06:47I love that performance, too.
06:48I wasn't at Coachella that year, but I do understand people kind of, like, being like, oh, it feels kind
06:52of like a familiar kind of rise because, you know, it is like a slow –
06:56it's, like, a slow burn of, like, eight years of having a career and then these moments are all kind
07:00of coming after the fact.
07:02So I feel like I'm always, like, just doing my thing.
07:04It's so me.
07:05Like, everything, like, the Bunny Man, the Midwest of it all, the, like, weird little Easter eggs in my videos
07:11and stuff.
07:11Like, it all feels so close to home that I think it feels like its own thing.
07:15I literally had, like, a similar sense watching your Coachella set that I did to seeing Chapel at Golf Ball
07:20turn around as the Statue of Liberty and being like –
07:22Oh, yeah, I love that.
07:23Oh, something's, like, happening right now.
07:24Yeah.
07:25And feeling that in the desert and everyone's – and the bunnies running through the pit.
07:29And I was just like, how was that?
07:31Yeah.
07:32Obviously, you have Golf Ball coming up.
07:33You have Lala coming up.
07:34What is post-Coachella?
07:36How does that kind of factor into how you are thinking about your festival performances?
07:41And, you know, just being in front of these crowds where, like, it really is anybody could be there versus
07:45someone going out of their way to specifically –
07:46specifically going out of their way to buy a ticket to your tour.
07:49I just want to put on six shows.
07:51I just want to wear crazy –
07:53I love the costume, the costumery of it all.
07:58I love the kind of – the way that a band leads to things being a little bit different each
08:05time.
08:05Like, no – like, the set won't be exactly the same as Coachella because it's a live band, so it's
08:10going to feel different.
08:10My vocal inflections will be different.
08:13Like, the freestyling on harmonies and things will all be different.
08:16So I'm just excited to kind of keep creating these special live moments.
08:21And, yeah, like, these are all, like, dream festivals to play.
08:25So I'm really – I've never been to Lollapalooza.
08:27I've never been to Gov Ball.
08:29I always wanted to, like, go to these things when I was playing and not just go to go.
08:32So I feel really grateful, but I'm excited to kind of bring new little live pieces, new set pieces, new
08:38little bits.
08:39I like to keep things – like, I don't want to just, like, have the same show locked in and
08:43do that over and over.
08:44Like, I kind of want to bring something a little different to each festival and, like, treat it kind of
08:48as, like, a one-off, you know?
08:50Makes it feel more special.
08:51You're mentioning, you know, like, how you're performing these songs, the different harmonies, all these things that change.
08:56I'm curious, what was it like, I guess, navigating or developing your relationship with your voice?
09:01Obviously, like, I think about, like, the deaf growl in Yes God and, like, being able to have that next
09:05to these really soft and tender moments.
09:08What was it like developing as an artist and being able to figure out, okay, this feels good, this feels
09:13nice, this is how I take care of my voice?
09:15What does that process mean?
09:16Yeah.
09:16It took a while.
09:17It took a while for me to get comfortable with exploring different sides of my vocals or different, like, sectors
09:25of vocals where I feel like when you start as an artist, you're expected to kind of choose one or
09:32the other.
09:32Or everyone's like, oh, you're sound, you're sound, and you have to hone in on, like, this very specific thing.
09:37But I feel like I use different accents.
09:40I use, like – I, like, will have, like, more of, like, Missouri kind of, like, you know, country twang,
09:44even though that's not, like – you know what I mean?
09:46Every song kind of calls for something different.
09:48Sometimes it's more of, like, a punk, like, accent where I'm, like, you know, kind of, like, crying and, like,
09:54stuttering.
09:54And sometimes it's really high vocals or sometimes I'm, like, rapping really low.
09:58And it took me a while to be like, you know, this all still feels like me.
10:01I don't have to, like, choose between one or the other.
10:03But I think opening over the years for other artists helped me get comfortable because, you know, you do things
10:09on stage.
10:10I feel like the way I would feel when I would perform, like, Daddy AF in, like, a really punk
10:16way, I was, like, like, I love – I want to make, like, tough, like, music.
10:21Like, I love the feeling of doing this over, like, dance pop.
10:24I love dance pop, but, like, I don't feel like that's always so me.
10:28It was, like, the kind of clubbier, like, dance music.
10:31And I just love the way it felt to, like, scream and roll around.
10:34And, you know, I love – I love, like, I love punk music.
10:37I love hardcore.
10:38I love everything in that zone.
10:39So I think I just wanted to kind of implement things like that in my own way.
10:43And it took me a while to feel comfortable doing that, you know.
10:45You feel kind of, like – like, I feel like when I was starting out, I was like, I don't
10:48want people to think I'm a poser or something, even though I do listen to this music.
10:51Yeah, I think that that reminds me a lot just of how kind of unpolished a lot of the album
10:56sounds.
10:57And I think especially when you're thinking about music in a pop space, there's almost this expectation of, like, this
11:01certain sheen and kind of precision that this album feels actually kind of averse to.
11:08And I was curious about your leaning into that.
11:11Very intentional.
11:12I started to get really fatigued with what I would call, like, very expensive-sounding, well-mixed, almost, like, algorithmic
11:22pop music.
11:23And even if it's not algorithmic pop music, which, like, I don't know, people can take from that what they
11:29think that means.
11:30But just, like, very expensive-sounding mixes and very clean vocals and very – like, it just started to feel
11:36so robotic to me that with this album, I was like, I just wanted to turn the crunch up.
11:40And, like, when all the songs were getting mixed, I was, like, kind of requesting, like, oh, Clint, can we,
11:45like, make things feel a little more, like, rough around the edges or, like, not so perfect?
11:49And I was using, like, you know, Total by Sebastian was, like, a big reference.
11:53Like, I just love the mixes on that album or, like, old MIA records.
11:56It's – the mixes don't feel so perfect.
11:59And I feel like a lot of charm has been lost from music because everyone – it's so expensive-sounding.
12:04People record on the best mics you can buy.
12:06It's – it all just feels so copy-paste and the same and the same.
12:10So wanting to do things, like, a little cheaper, a little more – it gives it a little more soul
12:15and a little more personality.
12:18I think you see it in the visuals a lot, too.
12:19And I wanted to ask about your experience self-directing a lot of what this era looks like.
12:24But I was thinking specifically about Yes, God and thinking specifically about cannibalism and how they kind of – I
12:29mean, they're bloody, like, body horror-type videos.
12:33And I was, like, that kind of really deconstructs this idea or perception of beauty in pop and that kind
12:41of framing and expectation of what we expect a pop star to look like.
12:45And I was curious about what it was about that that kind of drew you into kind of untangling what
12:50that is.
12:50I think I never fit the box of beautiful, chic pop star.
12:56And I just wanted to approach this music and be down to get ugly, be down to get gross.
13:02I feel like my original outlines for this project were a lot gorier and, like, worse.
13:08And it wasn't because anyone told me not to.
13:10I think I just naturally was like, all right, I don't know if we can, like, do all that.
13:14But I'm a huge horror fan.
13:15I love horror movies.
13:17I love – I just – I love body horror.
13:21Like, I saw The Substance, like, six times in theaters or something absurd.
13:23And I'm not kidding when I say that.
13:25That's not an exaggeration.
13:25Like, legit, six times in theaters.
13:27But I just love things that make you feel unsettled or things that have a creepy element to it.
13:34And I think in pop music, some of my favorite videos growing up, some of my favorite visuals always had
13:40– you would leave feeling kind of like, blah, or, like, the Smack My Bitch Up Prodigy video that, like,
13:46Jonas Ackerlin directed.
13:47It's such a – it, like, makes – you feel so – like, you feel like you're, like, going to
13:50get in trouble for, like, watching it or something.
13:52And there's, like, some kind of, like, danger that you feel watching it.
13:56I just wanted to approach my own visual world where not everything needs gore and blood.
14:01But I think when the music feels so extreme, I would just, like, see these visions of that kind of
14:06– those kinds of things in my head.
14:07Or the song Cannibalism with, like, there's, like, a literal scene with, like, the bunny man in the corner of
14:12the room.
14:12And it's not, like, really about cannibalism per se, but just how, like, sometimes, like, a crush can make you
14:18feel that way or you can feel consumed by someone.
14:20And there's a lot of symbolism in a lot of different things.
14:23But I just – I kind of love – I love playing with extremes in visuals.
14:29I love really extreme visuals in movies.
14:31So, like, I think with my own music videos, I kind of want to push it as far as we
14:34can without having it taken off YouTube.
14:36I feel like even, like, Beat of Chanel is, I think, just having, like, this kind of mixed-matched group
14:42of people and just, like, it felt very rooted in where this album feels like it comes from, right?
14:48And having those kind of ties and kind of platforming that Missouri element more and just, like, what is it
14:53like to be a person who's just kind of around and every day is, like, okay, so what's today going
14:58to be?
14:58And not necessarily having a set plan, I guess.
15:02So I'm curious about kind of what it's been like bringing those kind of elements of your past into this
15:07current world that you're existing in now.
15:09Yeah, it's been really funny.
15:11Especially – it's funny you mentioned Beat of Chanel.
15:13Is that video particularly when we were doing – the first shot of the day was with all the boys
15:18in that really, like, trashed-up room.
15:21And I was like, oh, my God, I feel like I'm in high school right now, like, sitting in an
15:25afters listening to someone, like, talk to me about some band drinking until, like, the sun comes up.
15:29It felt – I was like, this is crazy because that's exactly what it would look like.
15:35All my friends were skaters, and they would, like, have these kickbacks where it would just be, like, trash and
15:39cigarettes and bullshit everywhere.
15:41And it was – it's funny to kind of relive things from my past or to kind of stylize memories
15:49that I have of my high school years or my childhood.
15:52I think that this album feels so inspired by everything I loved in high school, everything I loved when I
15:58was growing up, everything I would play on my iPod.
16:01So making the visuals, not just, like, random vibe visuals, but things that really hit home and things that use
16:08pieces of my memories of being a kid or, like, little things.
16:13Like, my mom had bunnies all over our house, and, like, that's – everything feels like you're kind of remembering
16:17a dream or, like, you're remembering your childhood through this, like, dream lens.
16:22And, like, maybe you're not remembering it correctly, but there's, like, pieces of – pieces playing out in your subconscious
16:27that are, like, forming into new things.
16:30When you were first starting, there was, like, a reluctance, I think, that you had to kind of blend the
16:36world between the artist identity that you were building and then your actual, like, life.
16:40I remember, like, seeing a tweet where it was just, like – you were, like, please stop trying to find
16:43my real name.
16:44Like, it makes me uncomfortable.
16:45Yeah, yeah.
16:46Oh, my gosh.
16:46The early days.
16:48And so now this album kind of going – like, obviously kind of shed that anonymity, like, a while ago,
16:52but this album really does lean more into these more personal stories.
16:56Think about, like, gas station feels like a very – like, you're listening to it, and it's just, like, this
17:00isn't something you just made up.
17:01I mean, this is, like, coming from a real place.
17:02Tell me about kind of breaking down that barrier and being kind of willing to just sort of let the
17:07floodgates open like that.
17:08As I've gotten older, I've gotten a lot more comfortable in my skin and a lot more comfortable as an
17:12artist to talk about things that are more personal, to show things that are more personal.
17:19I think when I was starting out, it all felt a little bit more like a character, like a fantasy,
17:24just because I didn't feel secure with, like, being myself as much, and I feel so much more secure.
17:30It's so funny.
17:31I feel like everyone dreads getting older, and when you're, like, 22, you're, like, oh, my God, I don't want
17:35to be 30, and now I'm, like – I'm 29 right now, and I'm, like, let's go.
17:38Like, I would love to be – I can't wait to be 30.
17:40I love the – you get so comfortable in your skin.
17:43You feel more comfortable wearing less makeup.
17:45I feel like I started wearing my hair, how it, like, naturally just, like, dries and not needing to, like,
17:49straighten my hair and, like, wear so much.
17:52Like, you start to just feel more comfortable, and, like, I really appreciate this album being such a, like –
18:00it really hits home for me.
18:02It's really from the heart.
18:03It's so much of it is Midwest.
18:04So much of it is what I would see on Tumblr.
18:06It's, like, all these influences that I have, and I don't – I didn't feel the need to create, like,
18:12character – a character identity within it.
18:14Like, I feel like I am the worst girl in America, you know?
18:16Like, I might not be the Hollywood star from, like, before, like, you know, my mixtape era that was just
18:23kind of, like, bimboed out.
18:24I think I really am, like, this person.
18:26So I feel like only with age can you kind of peel back the layers and feel comfortable with that.
18:31And I think it's interesting, especially with music and especially with pop, when we see this more and more, there's
18:35this part of pop fandom where people are looking for something that makes them feel like their identity is rooted
18:41in it in some way.
18:42Or it makes them feel understood or seen, even if – or something, especially if it's, like, this person seems
18:49kind of like a mess and I feel kind of like a mess and so this is, like, this is
18:52great and this is nice.
18:52What were the elements of worst girl in America that you felt like people might see as reflective or be
18:58able to see themselves in?
18:59I feel like I'm kind of annoying and I feel like a lot of this album comes from feeling like
19:04the annoying girl who's, like, being a little too much at a party or feeling like you're – you know,
19:10people don't think you're cool and people don't – like, you don't fit in with people.
19:13Or, like, you don't have, like, fancy things like other people might have or maybe you're from a town that's,
19:19like, a bit unremarkable in the eyes of the world and you want to get out but, like, you can't
19:25– but, like, you also love just, like, smoking cigarettes in parking lots with your friends.
19:29I feel like a lot of people resonate with kind of the emotional push and pull of being from a
19:37small town or feeling like you're, like, trashy or not right.
19:41Like, it's not even really about being, like, so messy.
19:44I feel like a lot of the album is not meant to glamorize drugs or drinking so much.
19:49I feel like as you get through the track list, you're kind of like, oh, this person – maybe it's,
19:53like, it's more of, like, an issue with addiction and not so, like, I'm doing drugs tonight, yay.
19:57It's, like, more of, like, my past kind of hurts me and I use these things as a crutch and
20:03I think a lot of people relate to that and a lot of people – I think even just the
20:07visuals too.
20:07A lot of people have hit me up or DM'd me or left comments being, like, oh, my gosh, I'm
20:12from, like, Kentucky or Iowa or, like, I'm not even from the Midwest.
20:15I'm from, like, Florida but this reminds me so much of my hometown and this reminds – these visuals remind
20:20me so much of my high school years or where I'm from and it makes them kind of feel drawn
20:25to it or connected to it.
20:26Because that's – most of America are, like, no offense to where I'm from but, like, random cities.
20:32Like, it's not just New York and L.A.
20:33And I think a lot of music feels very, like, feels very stylized and doesn't really, I think, capture the
20:43magic of just, like, simple places, you know?
20:46That's, like, a kid sitting at home, Tumblr dashboard.
20:48Tumblr dashboard, eating cereal.
20:50Reblogging.
20:50Yeah.
20:51What did that look like for you?
20:53I just remember Tumblr in high school being, like, the Marina era and, like, Lana and Foxes and Halsey and,
20:59like, all of these, like, these people who are building these worlds that felt like they didn't exist outside of
21:04that because I would go to school and nobody would know what the hell I was talking about.
21:06Yeah.
21:07And so what was that experience like for you and, like, what did that – what was the function of
21:10Tumblr for you?
21:11It kind of felt like my first hand and, like, creative direction in a way because I was very particular
21:17about if I would reblog a photo.
21:20I wasn't just reblogging random shit.
21:21If I would reblog a photo, the next thing I would reblog, there would need to be, like, color story
21:26links.
21:27Like, if something had a little bit of pink or a little bit of chrome, it would all kind of
21:30lead into the next thing.
21:31Like, I was very particular about how my, like, blog looks, which sounds so stupid.
21:35But I think that was kind of my first introduction just to more, like, visual inspiration.
21:42I feel like that was kind of before Pinterest was really big or – I think Pinterest at the time
21:46was only, like, recipes and, like, random things, you know?
21:49And it felt like mood boarding.
21:51People would dress up and make imagery just for Tumblr.
21:53And I think people would get clowned for that at the time.
21:56But looking back, I'm like, how cool that there was this platform where people would want to, like, make art
22:00and, like, make visual art or, like, stylize whatever they're doing or, like, a T-shirt that they just bought
22:06and, like, take a webcam photo with, like, their pink hair and, like, stylize it for the purpose of creating,
22:14like, a vision board almost.
22:15I think that's really cool.
22:16And I think that was the first time that I kind of did that.
22:18And there were artists who would hit off on Tumblr.
22:21I remember seeing, like, Lana and Marina, gifs of, like, MIA or, like, random things or even, like, Tire the
22:26Creator and, like, the whole Supreme kind of hype-y side.
22:29I know that there's a lot of talk right now about people being, like, oh, like, so sick of, like,
22:34the nostalgia bait and so sick of it.
22:36But I didn't want to do things so on the nose.
22:38But I just – I have such fond memories of Tumblr and, like, a simpler time of the internet.
22:43That is just something I wanted to, like, lean into without, like, going, like, to, like, flower crown studded shorts
22:50with it, you know?
22:51I was thinking that.
22:51I was, like, thinking about Rihanna.
22:52I was just, like, she had the We Found Love video and the Only Girl video.
22:56And those felt, like, the – like, those were the Tumblr gifs sets.
22:59Yeah.
22:59Like, you just knew.
22:59Or even things – I remember, like, her, like, rolling a blunt on her security guard's head at Coachella.
23:05That, like, platinum, triple platinum on Tumblr.
23:08Like, it's so funny how it was more than just people's, like, music and visuals, but, like, artists, like, her
23:12street style would go up on Tumblr.
23:15It was a lot of – there was just so much that people just wanted, like, visual identity to kind
23:20of grab to or, like, something that they felt was aspirational.
23:23But that picture of her, like, rolling the blunt on her security guard's bald head is, like, God, hanging in
23:27the loo.
23:28No, it's so funny because you can also, like, talk to yourself and your tags.
23:31Like, it was, like, there was, like, a real privacy to such a public website for what Tumblr was.
23:36It just operated in this way where you felt very insular, even though anybody could have accessed anything.
23:40But I always loved that you could never see people's follower count.
23:43It didn't matter.
23:44Yeah.
23:45But, like, people would still be Tumblr famous, but it was just a different – it was just different.
23:49It didn't – I don't know.
23:51You would go to someone's blog and it was its own thing.
23:53It would have its own theme.
23:54I feel like Instagram feels a lot more – it's just different.
23:58But, yeah, I got back on Tumblr in, like, early 2024 and that inspired this album heavily because it was
24:03so crazy what a time capsule.
24:05I got back on and I was like, oh, people are still, like, posting an iPod next to, like, a
24:11crucifix and, like, making it – you know what I mean?
24:13Like, it was almost like time hadn't passed.
24:16Like, and it was – you would still see, like, the soft grunge, like, purple pastel hair imagery.
24:21And it felt – I was like, oh, my God, I feel like I'm in high school again.
24:25Like, I love this feeling of just spending all my time.
24:27I would get home from the studio or be in the studio and just, like, scroll on Tumblr.
24:31Fame, fame as a concept feels very accessible to people, but it's also something that's incredibly fragile because of how
24:38fleeting certain moments are, how quickly things can collapse.
24:42And, you know, just the way that people interact and kind of treat fame or attention as a currency.
24:46And so thinking about this record and the way that you engage with fame and attention on here, what do
24:51those concepts kind of mean to you?
24:53I feel like I'm experiencing more attention than I've ever experienced with music or just opportunities and things like that.
25:02I am never interested in being famous or calling myself famous or being celebrity.
25:09I feel like a lot of my music and a lot of kind of, like, the nucleus of my artist
25:13project is very anti that.
25:14I think a lot of people, too, are starting to get, like, celebrity fatigue, if you will, to think about,
25:20like, the Tumblr era.
25:21And when you really think about those visuals and how it was so – it wasn't about, like, luxury.
25:25It would be, like, people putting studs on their own cut-up shorts or something.
25:31And I think Instagram and social media, everything has become – everywhere you look, it's, like, luxury or super unattainable
25:38purses being thrown in your face or super unattainable this and that.
25:42And, like, people are getting really fatigued by that.
25:44And that feels very, like, married to celebrity culture and just, like, fame and wealth.
25:50And I think people are really starting to – I think people have connected with this project a lot because,
25:55like, I am, like, hot gluing feathers on shit for these videos.
25:58And, like, it's not – it's, like, you could – someone – anyone could make it.
26:02It's my perspective.
26:03So, like, it's more, like, attainable.
26:05And it's not so, like, over here, like, you can't do this.
26:08Like, you don't have the budget for this.
26:10Like, yeah, I don't want to be, like, a famous – I don't, like, want to be famous, really.
26:14But, like, I also don't, like, mind it.
26:16Like, I don't mind the attention.
26:17But I don't ever think I, like, will call myself, like, oh, like, I'm a celebrity, which I have a
26:22song with that lyric, which is funny.
26:23But I was thinking, too, even, like, when you mentioned nostalgia and the way that that functions now.
26:28And I think there's an element of optimism that comes with nostalgia because you can think of a time when,
26:33like, a future seemed brighter.
26:35Like, there seemed to be better possibilities awaiting versus when you actually get to those moments and you're, like, there's
26:41nothing here.
26:41And so I'm curious about kind of what your relationship is like with optimism.
26:46But also I think there's a balance of optimism and hopelessness across this album.
26:51And I was curious about kind of how you found that middle ground between being, like, I'm excited for what
26:56the future might hold, but also I'm carrying a lot of things.
27:01I mean, everything has changed so much recently.
27:04But while making this project, I felt very at the end of my career in a way.
27:10I didn't really want to continue making music.
27:12I felt like this was, like, a last-ditch effort where I was like, you know what?
27:16One more album.
27:17Maybe I'll go to school.
27:18I'm losing money on tours.
27:19This isn't working.
27:21And I love to do it.
27:22And I would do it whether anyone was listening or not.
27:25But, like, maybe L.A.
27:27Maybe, like, trying to, like, be in this world is, like, not for me.
27:30And I can just do it for fun like I used to.
27:33It's not like you were just kind of sitting around doing nothing and all of a sudden this happened.
27:37Like, you were kind of putting the foundation out.
27:39You were doing the building blocks.
27:40And you had these breakthroughs that made me felt bigger in the moment than they actually ended up being.
27:45Yeah.
27:45And so how did you, I guess, go about reconciling your expectations with the realities that followed?
27:51I heard a quote once from someone about how you shouldn't expect more because you're already getting more than you
27:56expected.
27:57And that feels like a really nice, encouraging sentiment but also can be kind of a crushing one when you're,
28:05like, don't expect.
28:06Like, you already kind of had, like, a minor Twitter song with, like, the Oh Me Oh My and all
28:11this stuff.
28:11And I never expected to even have, like, a little bit, let alone a major audience.
28:15But the goal post always kind of shifts.
28:17And you move to L.A. and you start doing sessions.
28:19And you sign a licensing deal.
28:22And you do this deal.
28:22And you do a little deal here and a little thing there.
28:24And, like, people start to be, like, oh, like, you're going to break through.
28:27We're going to, like, blah, blah, blah.
28:29And you get it into your head that these different things are possible.
28:32And so I just felt really down about, wow, like, I've tried so much.
28:36I've made so many projects.
28:37And, like, I feel like everyone thinks I'm kind of corny or, like, maybe that I'm not good enough or
28:41that I'm not – this isn't working or, like, I don't think people really like me that much.
28:45And so I made this project just from purely my own taste and not wanting to expect anything from it
28:52and being, like, you know what, if this is the last thing I make, I want to be super proud
28:57of it.
28:58And then, like, that will be that.
28:59And at least I will leave behind one really great album that I'm proud of.
29:03And it probably won't go anywhere.
29:05Like, the rest haven't.
29:06And, like, that's fine.
29:06And it's been kind of wild that, like, the opposite of what I expected to happen happened.
29:11But I wasn't expecting anything, you know?
29:13So.
29:13In that headspace of this could be the last one, is there any part of you that's mourning what that
29:19future could have been if you were to have hypothetically have going?
29:24And now obviously you kind of have to.
29:25I mean, kind of.
29:26I feel, though, that I'm getting to a place or an age where I feel very optimistic that, like, you
29:32can do anything you want in this life.
29:33If you have, like, one thing that you went to school for and that's, like, your job.
29:38You can have a hobby on the side and you can have a side business and you can have a
29:41side hustle.
29:42You can try different things.
29:43You can take different classes.
29:44You can learn anything from the internet.
29:46It doesn't just stop with, like, music.
29:48Like, I have so much that I want to do, so much that I want to try.
29:50I feel like I wanted to move more into, like, maybe, like, a clothing space or, like, go to school
29:56or take classes.
29:57Like, if this was my last album and, like, I can still do that and make music.
30:01There is so much potential to do so much with your life.
30:04You don't have to choose just one thing.
30:05Like, I love to do – I love to direct.
30:08I love to do all these different things.
30:09I would love to direct for other people.
30:11Like, I feel like there's no mourning because, if anything, I feel like there's so many possibilities.
30:15I feel like my biggest takeaway from making this album, too, is, like, you know, like, life is so beautiful.
30:20Like, I don't know.
30:20I was so depressed while making a lot of it, and before I started working on this album, I was
30:26so, so depressed and felt so hopeless.
30:28But I don't know.
30:30Like, isn't it so fun just to, like, rhinestone stuff on your couch or to, like, watch a show that
30:33you like or to hang out with your friends or to listen to a new album that you've been waiting
30:38to listen to?
30:38Like, there's just so much – there's so many fun things to do in this life that I'm not –
30:42I don't think it's worth, like, being so final about things.
30:46It was very dramatic for me to be like, this is the last album I'm making.
30:49Like, you'll never hear from me again, everybody.
30:51Like, that's, like – I'm so – I feel in such a different place now, you know?
30:55You would have still been making things, no?
30:56I probably would have taken a big break, which I think can also be – that can be, like, the
31:01nail in an artist's coffin sometimes, especially when you're, like, at a really small level.
31:04On the album, there's also this element of – and we talked about this a little bit before – but,
31:08like, this dichotomy of emotion and feelings.
31:10And obviously, you can see that in the sound versus the content.
31:13And there's certain things where it sounds one way, and you're partying, and it's fun, and then if you dig
31:18a little deeper, you're like –
31:19Is this person – is everything all right?
31:21Yeah.
31:22Obviously, it hasn't been out for a long time, but you've been sitting with some of these songs for a
31:26while.
31:26How does your relationship with the records on here change in what you're talking – the topics that you're talking
31:32about?
31:32I think the attention post this album coming out has changed a lot of things.
31:38It's, like, kind of a new weird crop of feelings where I made this album from a place of being,
31:42like, everyone thinks I'm corny and, like, doesn't really like me in music.
31:48And that's kind of a weird thing to feel like.
31:50Or I feel like I'm, like, compared to a lot of people or compared to a lot of things, and
31:54maybe this isn't for me.
31:55And now, like, even that title, What Is It Like To Be Liked, I feel like everyone is kind of
31:59coming out of the woodworks.
32:01Or, like, people that I thought maybe didn't like me, like, kind of, like, starting to, like – you know,
32:06being like, oh, like, the album's great.
32:07And that is a weird feeling because it's, like – so now, like, because other people like it, now I
32:12get a pat on the back.
32:13The lack of attention makes you feel depressed, but then when you get attention from certain people, you're like, this
32:18makes me feel weird.
32:18Like, you don't like me.
32:19You like it because everyone – like, you know what I mean?
32:22I don't know.
32:22I don't want to have a chip on my shoulder.
32:23I think if my music is resonating with anyone, like, that's such an honor.
32:27But I think my relationship – I feel like I have, like, more to explore with, like, within the titles
32:32themselves.
32:32And I've been working on new music that feels almost like a flip and a snapshot of, like, how I
32:39feel about everything post this coming out and how it kind of changes everything.
32:43Where you come from is such a different world than the bubble that people live in in a city like
32:48New York or a city like L.A.
32:49What was that initial experience like?
32:51How is your – what is your relationship like now with that kind of external world that comes with being
32:57in this realm of pop?
32:59I love New York and L.A. so much as, like, cities.
33:03I think the music industry, though, or, like, entertainment as a whole, there's something about people valuing social standing or
33:12valuing people's kind of, like, worth as – like, or fame or – like, that is something very different to
33:22Missouri.
33:22I feel like I grew up around real people.
33:25My family is all just, like, real normal people.
33:27My friends from home are all just, like, normal, real people.
33:30No one's, like – they all think it's incredible, like, what I've done and everyone's proud of me.
33:34But no one – people don't value people for what they can do for them or, like, if they're cool
33:40right now or if they know cool people or if they do cool shit.
33:43There was a bit of a culture shock getting into the music industry or, like, moving to major cities and
33:48watching the way people kind of social climb or the way people will value you more if they think you
33:54can do more for them or if they think that you help their stock or help their – you know
33:58what I mean?
33:58It feels very, like, spiritually, like, corrupt in a way, but it kind of made me, like, long for and
34:04miss Missouri, which I think a lot of this album was born out of having that kind of affinity for
34:08the Midwest and Midwest culture and just the real – like, real people who are just normal and real and
34:15like you for you, you know?
34:17I think entertainment – it's not New York or LA.
34:19Like, it's, like, the major cities.
34:21There's so many different industries that people work in and live in here, so that doesn't have anything to do
34:25with it.
34:25I think a lot of people try to be, like, LA is so influenced.
34:28It's, like, no.
34:29It's the industry of, like, entertainment, I think.
34:32And that was a very weird thing, moving from, like, a place where people don't, like, care about designer bags
34:39and random things to, like, the complete opposite in a way.
34:42When you recently talked about – I think it was an Instagram post about Rope Butch Freestyle and you were
34:47talking about sampling a phone call with a friend from home and ranting to your friends about home.
34:53Yeah.
34:53What was – well, what was the rant about?
34:55Like, I love a hometown rant because it's, like, only you can talk about your hometown the way that you
34:59talk about your hometown.
35:00He was saying – it was my friend Sam.
35:02He's so funny.
35:03He was saying something about – he was, like, I'm not a cowboy.
35:07Like, I'm a hillbilly.
35:09There's a difference.
35:10Like, I don't really know what he meant by that.
35:13He drunk calls me a lot and, like, just, like, says, like, really funny, very, like, prophetic things.
35:18And I was recording him and I was, like, yeah, can I use that in the song?
35:20Like, something about that really, like, touched my soul of, like, you're not a cowboy.
35:23You're, like, a hillbilly.
35:24Like, it's, like – you know what I mean?
35:26Something about – I just thought it was – it was, like, the funny – I was, like, who says
35:29that, first of all?
35:30Like, you're insane.
35:31But I just thought it was such a funny thing.
35:33But it also felt like it represented this project a lot or, like, even that song just, like, almost, like,
35:40being celebratory of, like, not having money and not having fancy things and, like, spending your rent check on, like,
35:45boots and you probably shouldn't have done that, you know?
35:47What was the last big purchase you made that you regret a little bit?
35:51I don't really regret any purchases for the most part.
35:54I really only buy mostly vintage or, like, materials to make clothes.
35:59I feel like I drop pretty, like, crazy money at the rhinestone store.
36:03They really, like, get my ass, let me tell you.
36:05Those, like, Preciosa Maxima crystals that I use are, like – it's, like, absurd.
36:11But I love – I just love the way they look.
36:13They sparkle so much.
36:14I feel like once in my life I bought, like, a designer bag, like, fresh out of the store and
36:19I, like – because I wanted to be cool.
36:20Could definitely not afford it.
36:22Like, put it on a credit card really bad.
36:23It, like, fell apart within, like, a month and I was, like, wow.
36:26And I'm not going to say the brand because, like, I don't want to, like, you know – but, like,
36:30I don't like – I don't like that.
36:31I don't know if fuck with them.
36:33Like, this shouldn't, like, feel like plastic, you know?
36:35I, like, feel like luxury is, like, a big turnoff for me lately where I just, like – I want,
36:39like, vintage, pre-loved, vintage, antique things, like, old vintage designer that has, like, wear and tear and, like, rips
36:47and holes in it.
36:48Like, that is, like, so much cooler to me, I guess.
36:50So, like, anything I've ever bought that's, like, fresh out of the store I regret for sure.
36:53Tell me about a time when you felt particularly misunderstood or underestimated.
37:02I don't – I always feel like people might not understand me fully, but that's okay.
37:07I feel at peace with that as I've gotten older.
37:09But I think a lot of my early years in music, I felt very dropped into the deep end of
37:15this crazy world and this industry.
37:17And I wasn't given a handbook on, like, how to act, how to act at parties, how to, like, hey,
37:23maybe you shouldn't, like, get so drunk and do, like, 10 shots and, like, bounce off the walls and be
37:27crazy.
37:27I would get into rooms and I always felt like I was kind of not really liked by people or
37:33I feel like my visual output was always a little all over the place early on.
37:38And I think people maybe underestimated my abilities or my talents or my taste levels.
37:44You know, I think it took me a while to kind of find my footing with making visuals and doing
37:50things myself.
37:50And I don't need people to understand too much about it.
37:53I feel good about what I make and I really love everything that I do now and I stand behind,
38:00like, choices that I make with, like, outfits or music or whatever.
38:03And if it's not for – if it's not for everyone or they don't understand it, then that's – that's
38:07okay.
38:08Have you kind of refined the partying approach as you've gotten older?
38:12Yeah, I've gotten really good.
38:14I feel at stopping when I need to stop.
38:19But I think when you're someone who has depression or someone who has, like, struggled in your life, I think
38:27it's easy to fall into traps where it's, like, it feels so good to, like, kind of, like, numb things
38:31with drinking or going out or, like, it's, like, a distraction.
38:34But as I've gotten older, I feel like such a homebody.
38:36I don't really – I don't really like socializing too much.
38:39It's nice to, like, celebrate when there's something to celebrate, but I don't feel like I'm, like, jumping to, like,
38:45go out to bars unless it's, like, with my friends and we're celebrating something special.
38:49Like last night, for example, you know.
38:51Celebrated?
38:51Yeah, a little bit.
38:52Not too much, though, you know.
38:53Like, I called it – I called it pretty early, but we all, like, worked so hard on the performance
38:58last night and it was just nice to, like, have a drink with everyone.
39:02And then I was like, I'm good.
39:04I'm going to go home.
39:04I need to sleep.
39:05But me a couple years ago does not know when to call it.
39:08Like, literally last person standing at the party.
39:11And I just – I don't know.
39:12I'm, like, getting too ill to do that, you know?
39:15Back's aching a little bit.
39:16Yeah.
39:17I don't – I, like, need to sleep.
39:19I need to sleep, like, seven or eight hours now.
39:21Like, truly.
39:23I'm curious, kind of, after a big moment, like Coachella, after a big moment like Fallon, how are you processing
39:30those moments and how long do you kind of process them on your own before you kind of open up
39:35to what did everyone else think?
39:36I don't know if I still have processed either.
39:39It's very strange.
39:40I feel like I'm, like, hallucinating all these things happening or something or this is, like, a simulation and it's,
39:45like, not – I don't know.
39:46Like, I feel like these, like, very big milestones keep coming up and it's – it feels so great.
39:52But I also don't want to feel too – like, not let it get to my head too much.
39:58I don't want it to affect the way I approach making music or what choices I make in the future
40:03and be, like, oh, like, I'm good now.
40:05Like, everything I do is, like, great and, like, I'm good.
40:07Like, I feel like everyone needs to feel a bit of, like, struggle or being uncomfortable a bit.
40:11So I feel like these big milestone things happening but it's, like, the classic saying of, like, your 15 minutes
40:16of fame.
40:17I feel like anything can go away at any time.
40:18So I just kind of want to make great things I'm proud of and create great moments that I'm proud
40:23of and, like, keep my head down and, like, you know, move forward.
40:27Having had those moments of breakthroughs that might have felt, like, a similar, like, 15 minutes at other points in
40:32your career, was there something about this one that, like – or, like, a specific moment or instance that felt
40:37distinctly different of what this might actually – this might actually stick?
40:42Coachella and Fallon both.
40:43Like, I think performing at Coachella felt, like – I feel like I blacked out during that performance.
40:48But when I got offstage, I usually have so many notes about what I did wrong and it was the
40:51first time that I, like, got offstage and just hugged my friend Anna and just, like, cried.
40:55And I was, like, oh, my God, like, we did it.
40:57Like, it, like, makes me – I'm, like, get emotional when I think about it just because I have so
41:01many – I always am, like, oh, I missed that note or I did this.
41:04But, like, weekend one, it just felt very – it just felt – I am so emotional lately.
41:08Holy – I need to, like – it just felt really special and it felt like it – I've worked
41:13so long with so many people who have kind of worked with me and watched every iteration of this and
41:19who have known me for so long.
41:20And it just felt like we all, like, won that day and it just felt so good.
41:24Last night was just a dream come true.
41:26I've never been on television before.
41:28That is such a career milestone or just, like, a cool – not only is it cool but it just,
41:33like, what a dream come true.
41:35Like, seeing all the people who have been through those halls and, like, seeing, like, the pictures on the walls
41:40of, like, legends that I grew up, like, being obsessed with.
41:43It just – it felt like such a special thing and it's something that I wish I could, like, have
41:48those first, like, over and over and over again but you only get to have the first ones.
41:51Hopefully we'll do it many more times but, you know, there's something special about this all kind of being, like,
41:55the first time I'm doing these things.
41:56You mentioned, obviously, have some new music in the works.
42:00Yeah.
42:01So let's spill some things.
42:02Is it going to be a deluxe?
42:04Do we have plans?
42:05Is there a timeline?
42:06What are we doing?
42:07I'm working on it a lot and I think I really have loved the idea of trying to, like, capture
42:16the same kind of, like, feeling from this music but from a different perspective.
42:22But it's not really a typical deluxe.
42:24It's not really, like, remixes.
42:26I love the idea of, like, doing the same thing twice.
42:29I feel like people hate sequels and people are very – have, like, an aversion to making something similar or,
42:37like, whatever.
42:37But I'm, like, I love this sound.
42:39It took me so long to figure out this sound.
42:41It took me so long to feel comfortable.
42:44It's, like, I want to push it further and make something that almost feels inspired by the album number one
42:49or, like, a sister album.
42:50I feel like that used to be more popular back in, like, the mid-2000s where artists would drop a
42:54project and then they would have a project that would be brand new songs, not remixes.
42:59Like, brand new music but it would be kind of, like, a sister album or, like, a brother album or
43:03whatever and, like, kind of extend – extended the sound in the universe without having to, like, switch to a
43:08new era or anything.
43:09I'm kind of over, like, the whole, like, era culture.
43:11I feel like it's, like, a little bit too much.
43:13It's, like, you know, I want to, like, live here for a little longer so I feel like I'm kind
43:18of making, like, an inverse album, if you will.
43:21I'm curious and we can kind of wrap on this but when you're looking forward to the next – I
43:26normally say, like, 5, 10, 15 years but I feel like in this moment we need to say, like, the
43:29next year, 2 years, 5 years.
43:31How do you see that identity and the way that you changed and everything that you learned about yourself in
43:37the process of making this record, how do you see that carrying you through the next however many years of
43:42what you're creating?
43:43I think just having the core of it all feeling like me and feeling like things that I love and
43:49things that I'm interested in and things that I wear.
43:51I go through so many random phases and I think a lot of my favorite, like, fashion designers or a
43:57lot of my favorite artists in general, whatever piques their interest, they, like, make art inspired by that in the
44:03moment.
44:03Like, maybe they get really into, like, vintage – like, collecting vintage pinup magazines and then that spills into your
44:08visuals.
44:08I feel like I just want everything to reflect my interests, what I love, memories that I have from my
44:14teen years or my childhood.
44:15I just want the core of everything to feel like me because it finally feels that way and I love
44:19to, like, make things from this kind of viewpoint now.
44:23Thank you so much for joining us.
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