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00:10Well, everyone, welcome to the 79 Cannes Film Festival, and welcome to this caring
00:15women in motion talk. My name is Angelique Jackson. I'm senior entertainment writer at
00:19Variety, and it is my pleasure to welcome, well, actually, first to welcome back to the
00:24festival, Ira Sacks, with his latest film, The Man I Love, and the star of that film, Oscar
00:31winner, Rami Malek. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Well, I know this is kind of
00:41early on in the press for this film. This is the first conversation. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well,
00:46I mean, hope all the memories come flooding back of filming this movie, because I know
00:51it's always a very, very quick turnaround, but we are so excited for people to see this
00:57film. I'm one of the fortunate few who has seen it already. How are you looking forward
01:02to that big premiere? I think I'm constantly taken aback. I think I never get used to these
01:12moments. It's like the moment you get a job that you've auditioned for or been, you know,
01:20hopefully you just wanted or cherished or thought might come to fruition. And, but there's always
01:27an, you know, this unexpected feeling that you never know what's going to happen. And can
01:33is something I never, ever expected. And the fact that we're here right now is still a moment. I'm,
01:40I'm trying to savor and, and still feels a bit surreal. I mean, it's can. It's extraordinary.
01:46I think for me, I, I have so many layers of memory. I've been here twice. This is my second
01:51time with a film, but I started coming here in the early 2000s and basically putting on a suit
01:56that I bought, unlike this one, and would just like knock on doors and look for money. You know,
02:02so the idea of coming back here, you know, 25, 30 years later, and actually having been able to
02:09create a sustained career making movies that are very personal to me seems something I, I'm, I,
02:15I didn't necessarily expect was possible. What has changed in those, in those 25 years in terms
02:21of knocking down, you know, knocking on doors and asking for money and not just in particular in
02:26your career, but also just in getting stories like the man I love told? Well, everything has changed
02:34since then. I mean, so many things. I think there is continuity. And I think one of the things about
02:39this film particularly is people refer to it as a period film, but I actually feel like it's a film
02:44that's very much in continuity to my own life, having moved to New York in 1984. So in a way,
02:50I'm making a film that feels like a film about the present. I think the things that have changed
02:55for the industry have been numerous, and we could be here all day to talk about them. But I think
03:00the challenge for filmmakers like myself in New York is to figure out, and in America is without any sort
03:08of government or state support, how do you keep going? And I think, yeah, there's not so many of
03:16us who've been able to do that. But I would also say you still have to knock on the door.
03:20And I feel
03:20really, my producers who are here, David Siegel, Scott McGeehy, Mike Spritter, they said yes, but it wasn't
03:27like everyone said yes. I still have to knock on doors. Absolutely. Well, Rami, what was it about,
03:32I know you've wanted to work with Ira, but what was it about Jimmy specifically that made you want
03:37to be a part of this film? Well, I'll go back to Ira first and foremost. I mean, the canon
03:42of work
03:42speaks for itself. What a unique artist that I think we can all cherish. These are timeless films that
03:53Ira has put into the world. I think they will, you know, they will live on and we will constantly
04:00go
04:00back to them for, you know, feelings that certain aspects of cinema don't always give us, but Ira always
04:09delivers. There's great intimacy and empathy and a certain je ne sais quoi European style about his films
04:21films that not many American filmmakers can pull off so elegantly, but it's something that comes from
04:30the soul and has so much meaning. You keep discovering meaning in the characters, in the story, and they
04:39just last with you. And so I wanted to work with someone who I knew I could lean on, depend
04:47on, collaborate
04:48with and make a piece of beautiful art that we both saw great pleasure in. And that's what resonates in
04:55Jimmy's
04:56character, a man seeking great pleasure and intimate moments. Every second, trying to grasp every ounce of that in his
05:08life, even though there is this sense that life may be fleeting, but pushing that away, as we all do
05:17at times, but this is a bit more grave.
05:20Absolutely. Tell me a little bit about developing the story, Ira, because obviously this is a film that deals with
05:26the AIDS crisis,
05:28but it does it in a very, in a distinct way from what we've seen with a lot of films.
05:33Well, I've been working with my co-writer Mauricio Zacharias for 15 years. This is our sixth feature
05:39that we've made together. And really from the beginning, when we started talking to each other,
05:44we both were gay men in, in, in, he was living in LA, I was living in New York, but
05:49we kind of went
05:50through this, this maturation process, this time, this time of being young in a really intense, intense world.
05:58And we were trying to figure out how we might share that through this, through a, through a film. And
06:04it took a long time in a way to have the distance.
06:06I think what we came to is that we wanted, we actually started a script that we, we got about
06:11halfway through and we're like,
06:12this is not the movie. And that was a script that I guess was a script about death. We realized
06:18you can't really make a film about death.
06:20You can only make a film about life. Right? Like, because we're all, sorry, we're all going to go, you
06:26know, really.
06:27And I think, but what we're doing now is what is cinematic, what is dramatic, and what is actually quite
06:33true.
06:33So it's a film in which I tried to put into this film everything that I could imagine that I
06:40would miss the most when I wasn't here.
06:43Sure. Tell me about- But before we go, we made it to Cannes.
06:47Yeah, exactly. So we got today. I mean, I will say that, I mean, just sitting here with Rami,
06:53I think our souls are in this film together. I mean, really in a significant way. And I think it's
07:00like,
07:01we made this together. And I think there is no film without his performance and also without him,
07:07literally bringing in everything that, that, that, that is a part of himself. And I, I guess we,
07:13like, we really were a mirror for each other in this film and the making of it.
07:18Truly. And, and I can say the same. I mean, Ira brought out a performance in me that I don't
07:24think I would give in another situation because of, I mean, the belief, but Ira is, is definitely an,
07:34actor's director among all the things that he can do, but we really did believe in each other.
07:40We did all the work ahead of time. We have constant conversations and it was, it was a beautiful
07:47collaboration to, to, um, create before we were actually filming. We were properly creating and
07:55developing a relationship that would give us some type of ease to be able to speak to each other about
08:02almost anything. And we could, and we did. And even after the film and post as well.
08:08Yeah. Well, because there are a lot of layers to this character, obviously, you know, there is the
08:13actual, the being of Jimmy in terms of, you know, his emotionality and things like that. But then
08:18there's also learning, uh, playing guitar and singing for the role. What did go into all of your process
08:26of finding who Jimmy is? Well, Ira gave me quite a bit of research. I mean, there, there's, I don't
08:34know if there's a, a cinephile that can quite compete with Ira Sachs. So, um, I was introduced to
08:41some great films. Um, we watched Beau Travai. We watched a lot of Claire Denis, Fassbender. I mean,
08:49you name it. Tell me more. Where do we go? The mouth agape? Yeah. I mean, I, I think for
08:54me,
08:54I try to figure out a language that we're experiencing together. But then really my job
08:59is to build a world. And that, you know, we, we really committed to making a film,
09:03a New York film in New York City. And so a lot of my job was filling the world around
09:08Rami so that he
09:09didn't have to imagine this time or period. I mean, I think the thing, it's not New York for, for
09:14it's
09:15exteriors in this movie. It's, it's New York for its people. And the thing about New York is actually
09:20the people are still really great and really interesting and driven and unique. And I think
09:24that is kind of this ensemble that we built that I, that from people who are living in the 80s
09:30in the
09:30city, that's the part that they connect most to, I would say. Absolutely. But yeah, I mean, I was,
09:37you know, picking up a guitar to learn a song and may or may not have made the film. You
09:42know,
09:42learning a piece of choreography that may or may not have made it into the film. So I was
09:47constantly busy because I didn't know what he was going to throw at me. Things would constantly
09:53change and evolve. And that was a beautiful thing. And, you know, we would look at different
09:57performance artists from the 80s. We'd look at Arthur Russell. We would look at Ron Vauder from the
10:04Worcester group. We would, um, Frank, uh, Maya. Yeah. So constantly, I was getting this, this wild
10:12education from the 1980s that I never would have had. And it was before this time of globalization
10:18where you have everything at your fingertips. So, you know, it's almost as if you were getting handed
10:24this, you know, in the way they must have been sharing a cassette or a videotape of something,
10:29or actually going there and being in, and seeing these live performances. Um, and what I loved
10:36about that is it, it kind of infiltrated the world around us and the design, the costume design.
10:43You know, you know, Megan Bowman created this incredible world that, uh, you know, was very
10:48specific to that. I mean, she would bring up this concept of, uh, you know, punk rock would be very
10:53different in New York rather than it was in San Francisco. And little nuances that you had to think
10:59about that you could bring into the character. I want to just quickly for those, most of you
11:03haven't seen the film to just to say that, that, um, there is kind of this, there's many dramas in
11:09the film, but one of them is Rami plays a character who's a part of a theater or group and
11:13they're trying
11:13to put on one possibly last great show that he's going to star in. And so there is this kind
11:19of, um,
11:21narrative kind of suspense element to the film, which is really like, is the show going to go on?
11:26And I think for us that made, gave us kind of a direction where we could, as I said,
11:32talk about what is possible, not about what is not impossible. And I think, um, so that's,
11:38there's a theater world that he lives in. There's the world of his home. He's in a partnership with,
11:42um, uh, a character played by Tom Sturridge. There's a young guy who's come to New York played
11:47by Luther Ford. There's, there's some other relationships, things happen.
11:52Romantic entanglements. Exactly. Exactly. Um, but in some ways it's a,
11:57it's a backstage theater drama. That's really like, that's the genre,
12:01if you were going to call it one. Well, I actually would love to, like all about Eve.
12:06Well, because this film is multi-genre, um, but obviously a, a key element here is the idea of
12:14queer cinema and the importance of queer storytelling. And I want to go back a moment to what we were
12:18talking about, about the knocking on doors. Um, how have you seen the industry change?
12:23It's gotten worse. It's gotten worse. Please go on. Well, I think there's this idea that progress
12:29grows in one direction. And as we can see, um, that is not always the case, right? Look at,
12:34look at what's happening in America right now in all sorts of different, um, areas. So I think the
12:39idea, I mean, I, what I want to know what, what will inspire me and what will make it, like
12:44the images
12:45that I'm, I have permission to make, I go back really to the seventies and eighties and I go back
12:50to filmmakers like Pasolini and I go back to Fassbender and I go back to a wonderful film called Taxi
12:55Zoom Clo made in Germany in 81. I mean, the images are like, they blow your mind. And I do
13:01show those
13:01all to Rami because we're allowed to make anything, but there is also in globalization, a slimming of what
13:09seems allowed, right? Because everything needs to be translatable, um, economically. So that has
13:14narrowed the possibility of what I call a kind of local cinema, right? A cinema in which people are
13:21actually telling the stories of what's happening right in their homes and in their city and in their
13:25town, because there's, that's, so that's more difficult and that's more difficult for, for gay
13:30people and queer people as well. Absolutely. I mean, but, and Rami to you, that idea, I mean,
13:36you have been very unafraid to play queer characters quite famously, of course. Um, uh,
13:42there's, there's one small movie that you were a part of. I don't think I need to say it. Everybody
13:47knows what I'm talking about. Um, but, but tell me about Jimmy and, and the, the opportunity to bring
13:54this very complex romantic story to the screen. I've, I just fell in, I fell in love with Jimmy. Um,
14:01all his contradictions, uh, you know, at times, uh, I would actually come up to Ira and say,
14:09are people going to like this character? Is he, um, he can be very selfish at times. He's,
14:16um, he can be very narcissistic. Um, he's very different to that other character that I love so
14:25much as well. Um, there's a, there's a great drive and, and passion that Jimmy has. And we would often
14:33refer to him as, as the guy who, you know, he, you know, he might not be, might be featured
14:39in
14:39the New York times, but he'd, he'd definitely be on the cover of the village voice. So, um, there's a,
14:46soul in him. There's, there's, uh, a feeling of, uh, a desperate need to create. And that's what keeps
14:55him alive. And I could just connect to that. I feel like I have, uh, a similar sensibility. It doesn't,
15:03for me, need to happen day to day. I mean, with the, with the right project, this definitely being
15:10that. But for Jimmy, it is, there's a passion. There's this zest for life in every aspect,
15:16in, in having a beautiful dinner with friends and sharing ideas in, in, in this way that I don't
15:24know we do communally the way I was referring to that happened in the past. It's, it's quite unique
15:31and, and gorgeous about this human being who is trying again to live life to the absolute fullest,
15:37fill it with so much pleasure and pride and, and intimacy and relationships in, in, in his art.
15:47And, and all during a time where, uh, you know, there's a, a tragic theft of life surrounding him.
15:56Um, so there is that ticking clock and, and that, that real desperation to, to create that I found
16:04magical about this man. I do want to explore that theme a little bit further, that idea of creativity
16:10as survival. And, you know, this film is obviously in a sense about making art. I think, I think one
16:17of you had said this, but making art as a refusal to disappear, um, in Jimmy's case in particular.
16:22But how do you relate to that in your work as an actor and in the choices of projects that
16:28you're making?
16:30Uh, uh, very similar. I, I, I love that. I did feel it was, was this, this, you know, almost,
16:37it was a refusal, the stubborn refusal. And I don't know that it's actually that stubborn. It's just
16:44a will, a will to survive in, in, in, in the world of creativity against all odds. There's something
16:52quite human about that. And, and to your point about how limited time is, um, you know, how much
17:00can we jam into that time that we are actually proud of? Yeah. So I do, I'm very careful about,
17:10I won't say careful, more considerate about the choices I make, how they'll affect me, but moreover,
17:17how they'll affect society. Will they land? Will they leave an impact? And, um, I very much think
17:24that this film will. I think it will resonate with many people, people who lived in that period and
17:30beyond and, and to go back to Ira's films. They stay with you. They stand the test of time. And
17:37I
17:37think this character will. So I'm, I'm incredibly proud of it and what we've achieved. I also want to
17:43say that this film for, for me and I think for Mauricio, my co-writer as well, came out of,
17:49um,
17:50the pandemic. I mean, where I think all of us had a, had a feeling of like something was over,
17:56right? Like there was such a, and, and I think specifically for, for a lot of artists, there
18:01was this sense, like, can we still make work? Will that be part of our lives anymore? And I felt
18:07depressed, you know, like that was, that was, you know, and I felt like I ended up starting to, to,
18:13to write and because I was like, well, they can't take that away from me, right? Like they can't take
18:18the computer and my fingers away from me. They might, the world might take away cinema. Um, but I
18:24think this idea that, that something that would connect my, me to myself through, through, through
18:30the creation of, of art felt very essential at that time. I'm just one, I'm just trying to imagine what
18:35Cannes was like in the late eighties and how it's changed and like how people like, what restaurants were
18:41like and how groups of people gathered and, and how they talk to each other. Like, it's sort of like,
18:46oh, I think someone was telling me that you'd, you'd learn about a party. This was maybe a little
18:50before that by like a flyer that was on a, on a wall at the press booth, like come to
18:55the party
18:55tonight, you know? So like, that's already such a different and in a way more tangible way of being
19:01together. Um, so I hope everybody's having some of that here, you know, a little bit, you know?
19:06I mean, I'll just say, I feel like another film's bubbling. I feel like you're, I feel another idea
19:11coming out of collaboration. There's always another, there's always another film bubbling over here.
19:15Yeah. Well, I do, I do want to go back to, um, the performance element of this film.
19:22Really? Obviously, yes, I know. Uh, obviously everyone here has seen Bohemian Rhapsody. So we,
19:27we know that you can perform, uh, for, for mass audiences, but this required a different type of singing
19:35and a different type of performance, oftentimes very intimate. Um, and of course, one of the most
19:40raw moments in this film is the performance of, look what they've done to my son, Ma. Um,
19:46not to give anything. I don't want to spoil it. We won't spoil too much, but I do want to.
19:49It's a pretty unknown song. Yeah. It's a song that no one's ever heard before. Um,
19:55but tell me, tell me about that idea of having to, to, uh, perform in this role and what, what
20:02went into
20:02singing a song like that? It can be quite nerve wracking still. I mean,
20:07I remember maybe after the first take of, of that shot, I, I was wearing a shirt similar to this
20:13color
20:14and it was soaked and I'm not someone who usually sweats and I was like, oh, okay, this is happening
20:20again. You better take a beat, step aside, calm down and singing live in front of an audience.
20:29They're hearing it for the first time and there's a beauty in that. There's a power in that and there
20:36is, there's, I think that's something again that Ira wants to capture in every element of the film,
20:43something that is being created in the moment that just, you know, happens to get captured in celluloid.
20:50Um, so there is, there is at times this simultaneous thing that's happening and it's, you know,
21:01this adrenaline rush, but this actual trepidation. But I feel like in those moments, I love to rise to
21:11the occasion. Sometimes it happens. Sometimes it happens on the first take. Sometimes it happens
21:16on a fifth take. Sometimes it ends up on the cutting room floor. Uh, but I do enjoy performing.
21:25I'm, I guess that's why I'm here. Um, but there's a, there's a very raw element to the music in
21:34this,
21:34you know, picking up a guitar, not playing it perfectly. You can hear that in the film and I think
21:39it, it gives it a, a, a particular feeling of authenticity that you don't often see in film.
21:46Yeah. I want to just add one thing as we
21:50edited started. I work with, uh, an editor named Afonso Gonsalves and we've been working together
21:54for 30 years. And, and when we were in the cutting room, one thing that became apparent
21:59to us around the songs and particularly, um, Rami's performances is that the songs become a form of
22:08dialogue. And I think then you know that they're really working for the film. They're not about
22:13the song. They're about how the song connects the character to the other people in the room and to
22:19the audience. And, and, and it's a different kind of song than in that other film, right? Which is,
22:25which is something, um, which is around popular music, which is its own beautiful thing. But this is
22:31really a, a kind of film. And in that way I think about, sorry, I, I mean, I think about
22:37what you,
22:37what I love about Judy Garland and A Star is Born and what I love about Ida Lupino in the
22:41original,
22:42The Man I Love, um, is that the songs become language between people.
22:48Well, I will ask just one last question. No.
22:51And like I said, we could, we could do this for a few hours. Um, but I, I wanted to
22:56look back at your
22:56Oscar win for a moment, um, because during that speech you took a, a, a space to acknowledge,
23:03um, kind of the historic nature of it, you know, being, becoming the first Egyptian to win that
23:08Best Actor prize. But you, but you didn't really speak about like the grandness of it, but the,
23:13the young boy, um, who was trying to find his own identity growing up. What did it, what have you
23:19heard from others that it meant, um, for you to be on that stage? Hmm. Uh, I think that's one
23:28of the,
23:28the greatest achievements of receiving that award is, is the hope that it's imbued in so many people
23:35all over the world, especially, you know, where my family's from and, in Egypt and, and the surrounding
23:42neighborhood countries, but all over the world, I think, uh, people can relate with what it feels
23:49like to be an immigrant or first generation, um, uh, uh, citizen in, in any country. And, you know,
23:59that comes with, that comes with some weight. So to, I, I don't be able to connect to that accomplishment
24:06in some way and hopefully inspire, uh, anyone, you know, young people, you know, people my age,
24:16people, you know, even who, you know, still trying to figure things out in their life, you know, fills me
24:22with some sense of pride that is, you know, uh, it's greater than even doing the work itself. For me,
24:31it's something I take more pride in. Um, I mean, I thank my mom on that stage. I've, and, and
24:37I
24:37continue to thank the people that, that helped me get there. I'm, you know, all the great casting
24:44directors that, that helped me along the way. Cassandra Cullicanoudis won an Oscar and she put
24:49me in the master when I was younger. Francine Maisler was nominated this year. I remember auditioning for
24:56her. Um, all, while we're here, I mean, I think about all, all these, I was on the, I was
25:02on the
25:02carpet, uh, for caring and I was asked that, you know, women who I admire and my, my mother's name
25:09came up immediately, but I, I thought about, you know, um, uh, makeup designer Jan Sewell that I've
25:17worked with for a number of years now. Uh, Faye de Bramaker is here. Uh, um, uh, Jan is someone
25:27who has, you know, she, she brings such authorship and intelligence and architecture to a film that
25:34sometimes I can count on someone like that in the way I can a director. And so there's so many,
25:41so many women that I find, uh, as the majority of my mentors in life, um, uh, that I, I
25:52could continue
25:52to speak to. Ellen Mirajnik as a, as a costume designer. I've done two films with Ruth Carter.
25:59Um, all these incredible women that, uh, I, I think have helped shaped me as a human being
26:05throughout my life that, um, I'd like to give a shout out to. The next time we do this, I
26:11think
26:11we should do it with our mothers. Oh, like that would be pretty interesting, right? To have,
26:15because I actually think they are, they're kind of here with us in a certain way. I mean,
26:20both our mothers are, are alive and well and, and would be, I think, very proud, a little bit shy,
26:25but probably, I don't know, they would have their own take. I will say that when I first started
26:29working with Rami, uh, he was on zoom with his mother and she said, take care of him,
26:34take care of my son. She was very aggressive. She was like, take good care of my son. She was
26:38very
26:38aggressive. I was like, take it easy mom. I'm going to do it. I'm going to do it. But I,
26:42but I guess I just, I sort of, um, yeah, I wish my mom was here. Yeah. Well, I will
26:46say in that you
26:47guys are very much fulfilling kind of the mission of women in motion, um, because it is about speaking
26:53as, uh, as the president of can spoke to at the caring dinner, um, on Sunday night, that idea of
27:00speaking women's names in rooms where they are not in and ensuring that that is the power that you have
27:07as,
27:07as the males in this industry, uh, to continue to elevate us. So thank you so much. Thank you.
27:14Thank you. Thank you. Thank you all so much. Thank you all so much for coming.
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