Do Not Have KIDS?!? CALL IN SHOW

Stefan Molyneux

Philosopher Stefan Molyneux confronts global depopulation birth-rate crises as father of three, shredding cultural family-burden shifts and hedonism traps with a caller to forge parenthood's unbreakable nurture power.  Chapters: 0:00:00 Global Depopulation Concerns  0:01:33 Moral Perspectives on Parenthood  0:02:32 The Decision Not to Have Children  0:04:21 Sacrifices of Parenthood  0:06:58 The Role of Hedonism and Gratitude  0:12:03 The Inheritance of Life  0:14:59 Family Dynamics and Choices  0:17:17 The Impact of Parenthood on Identity  0:20:18 Ethical Dilemmas of Childbearing  0:22:31 Historical Context of Raising Children  0:25:51 Environmentalism and Reproduction  0:28:55 The Value of Intelligence in Parenthood  0:32:46 The Relay Race of Generations  0:36:07 The Pursuit of Meaning  0:39:51 The Reality of Rebellious Choices  0:43:30 The Case for Parenthood  0:48:49 Protecting Future Generations  0:51:15 Closing Thoughts on Parenthood   GET FREEDOMAIN MERCH! https://shop.freedomain.com/  SUBSCRIBE TO ME ON X! https://x.com/StefanMolyneux  Follow me on Youtube! https://www.youtube.com/@freedomain1  GET MY NEW BOOK 'PEACEFUL PARENTING', THE INTERACTIVE PEACEFUL PARENTING AI, AND THE FULL AUDIOBOOK! https://peacefulparenting.com/  Join the PREMIUM philosophy community on the web for free!  Subscribers get 12 HOURS on the "Truth About the French Revolution," multiple interactive multi-lingual philosophy AIs trained on thousands of hours of my material - as well as AIs for Real-Time Relationships, Bitcoin, Peaceful Parenting, and Call-In Shows!  You also receive private livestreams, HUNDREDS of exclusive premium shows, early release podcasts, the 22 Part History of Philosophers series and much more!  See you soon! https://freedomain.locals.com/support/promo/FREEDOMAIN2026

Transcript

00:00My name is Tim, and global depopulation is a very big issue, obviously, and I am torn how to ethically

00:06respond to this thing that's happening all over.

00:12I'm a father of three and wish I could have had more kids.

00:16I wish other people would have more kids.

00:18Can't force them to do so.

00:21One part of me wants people to have kids, and the other side says, well, if people don't want to

00:26have children, then perhaps that's the ethical thing, and they should...

00:30remove themselves from that process, and maybe, you know, the global population does need to go down, and this is

00:36a natural evolutionary process.

00:39Right, okay. Tell me more.

00:42So, I am a consumer of a lot of podcasts and videos, and so I see lots of young women

00:48preemptively having their fallopian tubes removed,

00:52and men having vasectomies and saying they can't bring children into this world because it's so terrible, which I think

00:58is absurd.

01:01And part of me wants to challenge them on that.

01:03The other part of me is simply that perhaps you just shouldn't be parents, and maybe it is best if

01:11you just don't have children, and your line goes extinct.

01:15And that sounds hateful.

01:17I don't like that, but maybe that is part of what needs to happen.

01:21Maybe this depopulation is a part of a naturally occurring process that brings our population back into balance.

01:30And so, I'm curious about your thoughts on that.

01:34Tell me a little bit about the moral positioning that you're coming from.

01:38Are you a Christian or an atheist?

01:41A Christian, yes.

01:41A Christian, okay.

01:42Yeah.

01:43All right.

01:44So, do you think that the population needs to continue to go up or to remain stable, or should it

01:53come down?

01:55Again, all other things being equal.

01:57I don't think it needs to go up, but I think people who can raise children well and be responsible

02:04parents need to have more children.

02:07There are obviously lots of people who should never have been parents who abuse kids and all that kind of

02:14thing.

02:15And, you know, they probably never should have had children.

02:18But, you know, I see so many good people who work hard and follow the law and are good people,

02:24and they consciously decide to not have children.

02:27And I think it's just tragic, because those are exactly the people I think we do want to have children.

02:33That's an interesting question.

02:36So, why do you think people decide they don't want to have children?

02:41And it's not just the propaganda, because, you know, everyone gets the propaganda.

02:46The propaganda was around when I was a kid.

02:48Zero population growth, the late great planet Earth, all of this stuff coming from hard leftists was about depopulation and

02:57don't have kids and bad for the environment and all of that.

03:00So, it's not just the propaganda.

03:02Otherwise, that would be causal and everybody would stop having children.

03:06So, why do you think people don't want to have children outside of just the propaganda?

03:11Well, I come from a family of farmers, like most people did in the past, and families were large because

03:19you needed manual labor on the farm.

03:21That has largely gone away.

03:23So, I think you don't need children for your own prosperity going forward.

03:27So, I think that's a big part of it.

03:31And then, on top of that is just, you know, children are expensive.

03:35They are, in fact.

03:36But I don't have a problem with that.

03:38That is a wonderful thing.

03:42My life exists to be consumed for future generations.

03:47So, my labors go into the future, and I'm okay with that.

03:52A lot of people aren't, though.

03:54They'd rather do whatever they, you know, go on vacations or gamble or drink or whatever they want to do.

04:00And so, those are choices.

04:03My own father told our family of four kids that if they had known then what we know now about

04:12the population bomb, that they never would have had so many children, which is kind of a tackless thing to

04:16say to his own children.

04:17But there it is.

04:20Okay.

04:21So, I mean, it's good that we're sort of circling the question, but we're not there.

04:25I mean, it's a big question, so we wouldn't be there so quickly.

04:28But it's not just about cost, because everybody has cost considerations and so on.

04:34There must be something that's more particular to the people who don't want to have kids that's not just about

04:42all of the obstacles that everyone would face having children, if that makes sense.

04:45Right.

04:46One of my concerns when I became a father was that, you know, I thought being a father would be

04:51great, but I still wanted to be who I was and, you know, do the things that I like to

04:56do and have my hobbies.

04:57And it, you know, over the years became obvious that that simply was not realistic.

05:02Having children means that you're giving yourself to them and to their needs and desires and that you do have

05:09to surrender big pieces of your life.

05:11And so, once I fully embraced that, I kind of got it at that point, that my life is here

05:18for them.

05:19And if that means I have to give up the things that I like to do and I like to

05:22pursue, then that's the way it has to be.

05:24And I suspect that a lot of people don't like that idea, and they can't really understand that until they

05:32do have children.

05:34Well, I think that they could understand it if their parents made sacrifices for them.

05:40But it's sort of, but I don't know, but the sacrifice thing, I kind of get what you're saying, but

05:44it's sort of like saying, well, if I end up married, I can't sleep around.

05:49And therefore, that's a big sacrifice.

05:51It's like, well, yeah, but I mean, I guess you give up casual sex, but I mean, what you get

05:56is infinitely greater, if that makes sense.

05:58And so, yeah, so, and people give up a lot of stuff all the time in life to get something

06:04better.

06:05And I don't know what the answer is, but it can't just be, well, some people don't want to give

06:10up their own identity because the identity that you get as a father is greater than the identity you get

06:18as an individual.

06:19In the same way that the love and happiness that you get from being married is far greater than a

06:26series of shorter relationships or one night stands or whatever it's going to be.

06:30So, I'm not quite sure we're there yet in terms of why people don't want to say, oh, well, I'm

06:39going to give up things that I want to do.

06:40And it's like, well, again, that's true of everyone.

06:42You and I have decided to do that.

06:44Other people haven't.

06:46Saying that, well, people don't want to give up their hobbies or things that they want to do individually.

06:52Okay.

06:52I mean, but that was true for you and I.

06:55And yet we made the decision to become parents.

06:57So, these things can't be causal.

06:59Otherwise, it would be more consistent.

07:01I think that probably is something else.

07:03I'm not sure exactly what it is.

07:04But these are all factors that, you know, it's like saying, well, why did so-and-so not get an

07:10education?

07:11Well, because it costs money and they didn't want to go into debt.

07:14It's like, well, but that's not enough because lots of people go into debt to get an education or whatever.

07:18So, I think we're still having to thrash around a little as to why they make decisions.

07:25Because you and I faced the same factors and became parents.

07:27Sorry, go ahead.

07:28No, I was going to say I don't want to just dismiss it as narcissism of just wanting to live

07:32for self and not for others.

07:35And this is not, I don't want to point this only at women, but I listen to young women talk

07:40about it.

07:40And, of course, they bear the burden of pregnancy and everything.

07:43But they, you know, will say that having children is going to destroy my body and stress me out and

07:50their consequences and all of this.

07:52And, you know, to a certain extent, some of that is absolutely true.

07:55You're not going to have the same body that you did when you, you know, before you had a child.

07:59But this is what we're here for.

08:02And, you know, it sounds, you know, it's patriarchal to say that to a woman because I don't have to

08:11do that part.

08:11Well, hang on, hang on.

08:13I mean, have you ever worked hard with your hands and body?

08:18Absolutely.

08:19Right.

08:20I mean, I have too.

08:21And I didn't have the same body after I'd spent a couple of years working hard with my hands and

08:25body as I did before.

08:26Well, that goes on a whole lot longer than pregnancy, and I'm not saying it's exactly the same.

08:31But men routinely harm their bodies in the long run in order to provide an income for their families, right?

08:38Right.

08:39Right.

08:39So saying, well, the only thing that matters is that women, I'm not saying you're saying it's the only thing,

08:44but saying, well, you know, women don't end up with the same body after pregnancy.

08:48Well, first of all, that's somewhat of a choice.

08:50I mean, women end up with stretch marks and problems with their bodies if they overeat during pregnancy and don't

08:57exercise.

08:58If you don't overeat, I mean, you've basically got three months of stretching on your belly.

09:03That's not enough to permanently distort your frame.

09:06So if you just don't overeat and you do reasonable levels of exercise before, during, and after when, you know,

09:12medically appropriate, then you end up, I mean, you can see at the extreme example, you know, people like Elizabeth

09:18Hurley and other women.

09:20I think she's had kids like, and you've seen fitness influences after three children that look fantastic.

09:25So it certainly is possible to still have a good figure after having children.

09:33So it just, you know, it takes some work in the same way that for a man, it's possible to

09:39not wreck your body doing physical labor, but you have to be kind of careful.

09:43You have to, you know, lift with your back and with your knees.

09:46Sorry, don't lift with your back, lift with your knees and that kind of stuff.

09:49So you do sort of basic preventive exercise and so on.

09:52I mean, also soft jobs, like office jobs, we don't think of it as much, but office jobs are horrible

09:59on people's bodies.

10:01Because there's all that sitting and slouching and staring at screens and, you know, it's just the sedentary thing is

10:07brutal.

10:07And so there are a lot of people who are podcasters or other sorts of media figures that wreck their

10:15health because they do all the sitting and soft couches and then sitting to doing edits and sitting at their

10:23email and so on, which is one of the reasons why I like to walk around.

10:27Like I'm currently walking around while we're doing the show.

10:30So it's not like everybody needs to see my gorgeous face all the time.

10:34And so, but what you have to do is you have to do work in order to maintain your health.

10:41So if you are doing physical labor, then you need to do, you know, your stretches and massages and proper

10:48body posture and so on to maintain your health.

10:50And if you are doing some sort of sitting job, then, of course, what you need to do is do

10:57your exercise and move around and all this kind of stuff.

11:00So men are harming their bodies and women too, just by working, whether it's physical labor or more sedentary labor.

11:08I'm not sure which is worse.

11:10So saying that there's a huge sacrifice for pregnancy and it's going to wreck your body, it's like, I mean,

11:17all work is going to do that unless you compensate for it.

11:21And it's the same thing with pregnancy, if that makes sense.

11:23I remember when I used to work in a store as a teenager, the old people would just hang around

11:29and want to chat and just be just so desperately.

11:31You'd smell the loneliness coming off them.

11:34It's kind of foul and horrifying.

11:36It was like a hole with no bottom.

11:37And so you gain things later in life and you lose things earlier in life.

11:43And, you know, like going to exercise and stuff, you lose some comfort and sitting on the couch now, but

11:48you gain sort of health and strength down the road.

11:51So I think it's hedonism, number one.

11:53And number two is just a lack of gratitude.

11:55So people enjoy being alive.

11:58And so because people have sacrificed in order for us to be alive, we should pay it forward.

12:03You know, if you inherit a whole bunch of money that's been in your family for 10 generations, you shouldn't

12:08blow it all on hookers and drugs, right?

12:10I mean, that would be highly irresponsible.

12:13So if you enjoy being alive, then you should want to pay it forward as best you can because you

12:18were given a gift that's not yours.

12:20Like life isn't something that I just made up on my own.

12:23And it was the sacrifice of my parents and grandparents and like all the way back 4 billion years or

12:27however long you want to go for.

12:30So if you inherit something that is wonderful and it is a gift that you hold on to that you

12:35have the ability to pass on, then you shouldn't just consume it all for yourself.

12:40You know, like if you've ever had a thing like take a bite and pass it on, you know, if

12:45there's some, you know, have a bite.

12:47But if somebody passes you like a donut and you're supposed to take a bite and pass it on and

12:52you just eat the whole thing yourself, you're kind of an a-hole, right?

12:54So you're just consuming it all yourself rather than passing it along and all of that.

12:59So I think it's, it's selfishness, which is kind of an ingratitude and hedonism.

13:07And I'm not sure why those personalities should get to reproduce.

13:12Okay.

13:13I mean, people give you excuses.

13:15People have to be kind of lazy, entitled, hedonistic and selfish.

13:19And then, but they don't want to sit there and say, well, I'm too lazy and selfish to have children.

13:25So I'm going to be greedy for an excuse or a justification, if that makes sense.

13:31And then some, you know, jerkwad comes along and says, well, you know, environmentally responsible and you're just perpetuating white

13:40supremacy or whatever is going on.

13:42Like you just do not have children for the sake of too many, too many people on the planet.

13:46It's like, if there are too many people on the planet, why did, why does everyone keep sending massive amounts

13:50of food to the third world?

13:52I mean, it's all they do is have more kids, right?

13:54So that's all.

13:55Yeah.

13:56So people are lazy or maybe they just had really bad childhoods and don't know how to be a good

14:00parent or something like that and don't want to do the work to figure that stuff out.

14:04So I think people are just, they're lazy, entitled, selfish, you know, don't want to do the self work and

14:09want to just, you know, burn all of their inheritance on themselves.

14:13Uh, so people then just hand them excuses.

14:16And if people hand you excuses that say your selfishness is actually a great, deep and abiding virtue, well, people

14:25are like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, it is.

14:27Because I'm not selfish.

14:29I'm environmentally responsible.

14:31I'm not selfish.

14:32I don't want to perpetuate whatever, right?

14:35And so people are very greedy for excuses.

14:40If they're, if they have vices, they're very greedy for excuses.

14:44And of course, there's no end of people who will be happy to come along and deliver those excuses.

14:50And then they get to feel very virtuous about being, you know, shallow, callow, selfish, and hedonistic and all that,

14:59right?

14:59So, yeah, yeah.

15:01What prompted this for me is that more than half the numbers of my family have, by choice, never had

15:07children.

15:08And, uh, so it makes family gathering a little awkward because I want to talk about my kids, but then

15:13it sounds like bragging sort of that I want to talk about my kids.

15:16And it's, they, they just all look so, so sad to me as they age that they've, they've passed that

15:22window and, uh, that there's nothing there for them.

15:25There's nothing to pass on.

15:27There's nothing to look forward to.

15:30Everything's a dead end for them.

15:31And I think it's tragic, but I can't fix it.

15:34I mean, yeah, love is the only thing that escapes the hedonic treadmill, love and wisdom.

15:38Because the hedonic treadmill, of course, as you know, is the more pleasure you get, the less pleasure you feel.

15:44But that's not the case with wisdom and virtue and love and those things grow in the, in the application.

15:49So, of course, uh, you know, if you've got siblings in, in their fifties and those siblings have done, uh,

15:57the kind of selfish life or, or whatever it is, then all of those selfish pleasures diminish over time.

16:03And, you know, normally people start getting health hiccups in their fifties, you know, teeth and backs and knees and

16:09cysts and all sorts of nonsense.

16:11Right.

16:12And, and then you, you know, you, you're not, you know, 26 and out of the club.

16:18You're at your own recovering from having a cyst removed or something and you've got no one.

16:22And so, yeah, so, I mean, but, but, but that's all pretty, pretty obvious and it only takes a moment

16:28of thought to anticipate that.

16:29And so, uh, and also the other thing too, is that if you don't have kids, your life is almost

16:36completely limited to other people who don't have kids.

16:39Because if you don't have kids and your best friend has kids, your lives part and never return.

16:47Right.

16:48Right.

16:48I mean, it's hard to explain to people who don't have kids.

16:51And I'm, you tell me if this is not your experience, I'm sure it is, but obviously I don't want

16:55to speak for you.

16:56When you have kids, that's all you think about.

16:59Like from the, from the first daddy, daddy in the morning to the last passing out at night, when you

17:05try and get your cozy seven hours, right?

17:08I mean, your day is consumed by kids and their needs are consistent.

17:12And, uh, you know, the fun that you have with them is consistent and you have to adjust to each

17:17new phase.

17:17And it's, it's, it's a wild situation.

17:20It's much more consuming than marriage.

17:23Uh, it kids just, especially, you know, certainly until they're in their early teens, uh, kids really need you.

17:30And it's, it's just a absolutely almost endless, consistent, a hundred percent of your waking hours.

17:38I mean, you could distract yourself a little bit, you know, maybe play a game or, or if you're at

17:42work or something like that, but kids are always on your mind.

17:45And for people who don't have kids, you just can't understand it.

17:49I mean, it's, I didn't understand it till I became, I remember reading, this woman wrote a great book, uh,

17:54about, uh, kidhood and marriagehood, uh, called what our mothers didn't tell us or something.

17:59And she said, when you become a parent, it's like your, your focus on your kids is like a dimmer

18:04switch.

18:04You can turn it down, but you can't turn it off.

18:07Like you'll never forget that you have kids and you'll never not be thinking about them at some level because

18:12you always need to be alert.

18:14You know, are they waking up?

18:15Are they crying?

18:16Are they upset?

18:16You know, even middle of the night, uh, I need to pee or whatever.

18:19I'm thirsty.

18:20And so your lives, if you have kids and you don't have kids, uh, those lives just completely diverge.

18:27And then people say, oh, all you talk about is your kids.

18:30It's like, bro, that's what I do.

18:33Right.

18:33All day, all day.

18:35What I do is, is be a parent.

18:37And so your, your lives just completely diverge in a way that's almost impossible to explain to other people.

18:44But again, maybe this isn't your experience, but in my experience, I don't have any real contact with people who

18:51aren't parents, um, uh, in terms of like my, my social life.

18:55I mean, for, for work and that's a matter and so on, but they're either trying to become parents or

19:01they are parents or that's their goal, certainly.

19:04But I don't have any dedicated singletons or, uh, childless, uh, people in my life because the value divergence is

19:12just too great.

19:13Right.

19:14Right.

19:14Yeah.

19:15And the, the desperate irony of parenthood is that as they grow, you have to let go of them.

19:21So they, they go from total dependence to independence and you, you know, it's that 18 year process of letting

19:27go, which I know you're, you know, you'll never stop being a parent, but you're, you're about at that window

19:32of just releasing your daughter into the world and like, here you go world.

19:37Yeah.

19:37And then she'll come back when she gets married and have kids and all of that.

19:41She'll, she'll probably do a bit of a boomerang, uh, to be around us as grandparents and all of that.

19:47And, and of course, even when she's out there in the world, I mean, you're still thinking about how they're

19:52doing.

19:52Right.

19:53It's kind of a constant thing.

19:54So, and so what else have you seen with your childless siblings?

19:59There's, well, they're, they're rubberless.

20:02They, they don't know why they get up every day.

20:04They, they almost all hate their jobs now.

20:07Um, so yeah, they sort of have disposable income, but it's like, what, what are you going to do with

20:11it?

20:12Can they go on a singles cruise?

20:13Are you going to, I don't know.

20:16They're, they seem just rudderless in their lives.

20:19And, uh, you know, I guess I'm, I'm more concerned with when I, you know, encounter young people who say

20:24these things like, you can't bring children into a world like this.

20:28Um, you know, I, I want them to have children and, and mature a little bit, but, you know, if

20:35they insist they want to get their tubes tied, I don't know what to say to them.

20:40What, what's ethical at that point?

20:42Okay.

20:43So give me, um, give me a, let's do a little role play.

20:46You'd be one of these young people, um, and, and say what you say and I'll sort of say what

20:52I might say back.

20:53Certainly.

20:54Yeah.

20:55So with, uh, with all that's going on in the world, how can I possibly bring a child into the

21:00world?

21:00The currencies are collapsing.

21:01Governments are, you know, starting new wars.

21:04We're just going to throw them into the meat grinder.

21:07So why don't we do them a favor and just not birth them at all?

21:11Right.

21:12Well, I mean, I hear what you're saying.

21:14And, and certainly the world is a troubled place.

21:16It has been for thousands of years.

21:18It probably will be for the next couple of centuries at best.

21:21The world is definitely a troubled place.

21:23Do you think that the world is easier or harder to raise children in than it was, say, 500 years

21:31ago?

21:32Overall, I suppose easier, but it's a more, it's a more dangerous sociologically, a more dangerous place.

21:40Sorry, then or now?

21:42Now.

21:43Oh, so, so are you saying it's more dangerous or more difficult now to raise children than it was 500

21:47years ago?

21:48More dangerous now because we lack actual community.

21:53You are, exist in this atomized world of the, the internet with infinite little subgroups.

21:59Um, so you, you don't really know anyone.

22:03You're not actually connected and looking out for your, your neighbor, you know?

22:07Well, I mean, that's, that's a choice, right?

22:08That's not totally inflicted upon you.

22:10You can, you can work to make a community.

22:12So it's not like that's a sort of law of physics, but I mean, let me ask you this.

22:16If, if, if, if I had a magic button and, and when you were born, you could choose to go

22:22back 500 years or you could choose to stay in the present, do you think you'd push it?

22:28I don't think so.

22:30Uh, why not?

22:31I don't think so.

22:33Why would you?

22:34I don't think so because I know what happened in the past and the future has unknown potential.

22:40Okay, but you're saying that the past was better.

22:43So why wouldn't you want to?

22:44And I'm not trying to be like, well, I wouldn't, I'm just curious.

22:46Like, why wouldn't you want to go to some, you know, most people would say, if there's a button you

22:50can push and you can get $10 million, most people would push that button.

22:53Right.

22:53Cause they say, well, that's better.

22:54Right.

22:55So if the past was better and it had community and all these other things that, that are a value

23:01and they are, I mean, I'm disagreeing with you about that.

23:03Then why wouldn't you want to go back?

23:06Why don't you push that button?

23:08I suppose you might, because it's a known quantity.

23:11You know what the circumstances are, you know, in hindsight.

23:15What do you mean?

23:16I know what the sociological constructs are.

23:20I know the languages that are spoken.

23:23No, no.

23:24But if you went back in time, you would grow up knowing and learning those things.

23:28And of course, look, there were strengths in the past and I agree with you that there was much more

23:32community and so on.

23:33But that community was also a little bit claustrophobic.

23:36It was like you had to kind of obey everyone and you couldn't really step out of line and you

23:39couldn't really be an independent thinker and so on.

23:42And of course, if you were to go back 500 years ago, you'd be flipping a coin as to whether

23:46you lived to the age of five.

23:48Because half of all children died before the age of five.

23:53Right.

23:54So would you want to go back in a time where it was 50-50, whether you'd even make it

23:59to the age of five?

24:01And even if you made it to the age of five, you could die from an infection.

24:05Your teeth would get pulled out without anesthetic, which might break your jaw.

24:09You would have no antibiotics.

24:11You'd have no anesthesia if you need an operation.

24:14They'd just give you some whiskey and strap you down.

24:18And there was so little political liberty and so much war that it's almost incomprehensible.

24:26And of course, there was a pretty stifling amount of conformity, no communications technology.

24:30You also would be unlikely to learn how to read and therefore you wouldn't have any literacy or anything like

24:36that.

24:36So you could certainly make the case that it's not that great in the past compared to now by some

24:45metrics, right?

24:46Right.

24:47Of certain ones.

24:47Yeah.

24:48Or to put it another way, if you could show a day in your life to somebody from 500 years

24:55ago, do you think they'd want to come to where you are?

24:59I imagine so.

25:01Yeah, absolutely.

25:03I mean, we know that people who live in more primitive cultures in the world right now move heaven and

25:09earth just to get to the West, right?

25:11Right, right.

25:12Of course.

25:12So people die.

25:14You remember that poor kid in Turkey whose father put him on the boat many years ago and he drowned

25:20on the beach.

25:20So people are dying.

25:22You know, like 40% of the women who crossed the border or maybe 80%, I can't remember, who crossed

25:27the border in Mexico get sexually assaulted along the way.

25:30Right.

25:30So people are dying to get to where you are and you say the world is too terrible to even

25:40have children.

25:41Well, not according to the people who are dying to get where you are.

25:44Right.

25:46Yeah.

25:47I am not very good at strawmanning that side of the argument.

25:51Well, they would talk about environmentalism and so on, right?

25:55And I literally had this conversation with somebody who was keen on not having kids or wasn't keen on having

26:04kids.

26:04And she brought up the environmental argument, right?

26:08Right.

26:08And I said, well, of course, if you are for the environment, then you must be very much against migration,

26:15immigration, because immigration is taking people from a low carbon footprint and putting them into a high carbon footprint.

26:20And she was pro-immigration, and then I said, well, if you are for environmentalism, which, of course, is a

26:27good cause in some ways, if you are for environmentalism, then you must be very much against government control of

26:35currency, because they print all this money, they go into debt, which consumes extra resources.

26:39You must desperately want to have the budget balanced no matter what, right?

26:43And, of course, you didn't, right?

26:45I hadn't even thought about that.

26:47So, I'd say, look, environmentalism is not the major concern, although it is important.

26:51But I said, also, how are we going to solve the problems of environmentalism?

26:56Well, we're going to have to use intelligence and technology.

26:59Now, you are very concerned about environmentalism.

27:02So, let's say you have two or three children, and you say to them, environmentalism is really, really important, and

27:10then they go out and they become activists or scientists or entrepreneurs or something, and they work very hard to

27:17solve environmental issues.

27:19Well, that's good, right?

27:22So, you get to transfer your environmental values to your kids, and that's going to be a part of how

27:29they work in the world, and they're going to go out and inform people, and they're going to go out

27:33and invent things or start companies or work for places with people who share their values so that the problems

27:39of environmentalism can be solved.

27:40But if you don't have kids and you support, you know, mass immigration, then the values of environmentalism, which are

27:48not generally shared by people from, I mean, if you look at other countries, not in the West or other

27:55places, the environmental concerns are really not there.

27:58They don't really have them.

27:59Right.

28:00And so, what's going to happen is, if you don't have kids and you support mass sort of human immigration,

28:07then what happens is the values of environmentalism are going to get diluted to the point where they'll just disappear.

28:14Right.

28:14And so, if you care about environmentalism, you should want to have kids and raise them with your values to

28:18make sure that they can solve the problems and keep environmentalism alive.

28:22Right.

28:23Yep.

28:24And for saving the environment, who are we saving it for?

28:27Well, that's another thing, too.

28:28Yeah.

28:28All the rats.

28:29If you don't have kids, then...

28:30Then, right?

28:31Then there's no need to save it for, right?

28:33I mean, that's like saying, I want to calorie restrict my last meal before executing.

28:38It wouldn't make any sense.

28:40I'm going to brush my teeth.

28:41Right.

28:42So, yeah.

28:43So, these are sort of arguments as a whole.

28:46And, of course, I've engaged when the people say the world is overpopulated, my general response is, not by super

28:54intelligent people, though.

28:56Which is, you know, I mean, we all know that women, when they're young, tend to have more sex with

29:01lower IQ people.

29:02It's a bit of a tragedy or whatever, right?

29:04But, yeah, we could say that there's too many people in the world, but if there are too many people

29:10in the world, we're going to need smart people.

29:12Because if there are a lot, a lot of people in the world and they're not particularly smart, it's going

29:16to be a complete disaster.

29:17So, we are going to need smart people in the world.

29:20And so, the world is overpopulated, but people aren't just copy-paste, like little among us individual blobs.

29:27They vary very differently in terms of intelligence and in terms of values and so on.

29:32And so, if we say the world is overpopulated, it's like, yeah, but not by super smart people.

29:38And so, everyone who listens to what I do is usually very smart.

29:41And so, you should be having kids because, I mean, that's in a way the most, it's the rarest commodity

29:46of all.

29:47Right, right.

29:48One other argument I have in my head is that I wonder if, because young adults often need to rebel

29:55against something, right?

29:56They got to push back against whatever the structure is to find their own path and their own sort of

30:02independent thought.

30:03And we're kind of running out of things to rebel against because we're tearing everything down.

30:08And one of the last things that you can rebel against is reproduction.

30:13It's the last sort of frontier of us continuing forward.

30:17You know, you tear down religion and you tear down government and our history and our historical myths and all

30:23the things.

30:24And that's sort of the last thing that you can rebel against is, you know, to be a young woman

30:28and say, I'm not having children.

30:30I'm not going to do this thing that my body was made to do.

30:33And that I benefit from my mother doing.

30:35Yeah.

30:36All right.

30:36And I exist because of her, you know, we all have mothers.

30:39So if somebody says that to me, I actually, I did have, it was not a young woman, but a

30:46young man who had that conversation once in real life.

30:49And he said, you know, like, I'm a rebel, right?

30:53And I said, okay, but who told you that not having kids was a positive thing?

31:00And he's like, oh, it's everywhere.

31:01You know, it's the media.

31:03My teachers told me and blah, blah, blah.

31:04And I'm like, well, how are you just rebelling if you're just doing what propaganda tells you to?

31:09Right, right.

31:10How is that rebelling at all?

31:12Well, I heard this idea that having kids was bad.

31:16So I'm not going to have kids because someone told me to not have kids.

31:19And I'm like, so you're kind of just a follower.

31:22And genetically, you're following people off a cliff.

31:27Like you're ending the whole bloodline, right?

31:29Right.

31:30And then the last thing, of course, as two sort of minor sub side quest arguments is to ask your

31:38children, sorry, to ask your parents, would you have had children if you knew that none of your children would

31:45have children?

31:48Because that's the deal.

31:49Right, right.

31:50The deal is, I have a child or children so that the bloodline can continue.

31:57Or to put it another way, if you knew ahead of time, let's say you had genetic testing, and you

32:06knew ahead of time that you and your beloved wife, who you want to stay with and be monogamous with

32:11because you love her.

32:11However, let's say that you knew ahead of time that if you had children, they would all be infertile, like

32:20the way that you and your wife's genes just kind of matched up.

32:23And so if you knew ahead of time that all of your children would be infertile, would you have children?

32:30I mean, that's a real question for you, I guess.

32:32Right, right.

32:34I would, selfishly, just for the experience.

32:37But yeah, I've never really thought about that.

32:41And of course, it's hard to imagine life without your kids.

32:44Right.

32:44So it's not like you don't want your kids to be there.

32:46But in general, we have children in part upon the assumption that they themselves will have children.

32:54Right, right.

32:55And that's kind of the deal.

32:57Yeah.

32:57And most people, if they somehow knew ahead of time that none of their children would have any children, it

33:03would mean no grandchildren, no great-grandchildren, and it probably wouldn't mean weddings to attend.

33:08And like all of the natural beauty and busyness of extended family life and so on.

33:12And also, if your children were infertile, then what kind of mate would they get?

33:21Because most people want to have kids.

33:24So if you have kids and you know ahead of time that those kids are infertile, then of course, they

33:29have to say that to everyone they're dating.

33:31By the way, if you want to have kids, I can't have kids.

33:35Right?

33:36Right.

33:36Now, of course, you could talk about adoption and this, that, and the other.

33:39But most people want to have their own kids, in particular men.

33:42Right.

33:42Or women, too, of course.

33:43Right?

33:43But most people want their own kids.

33:46So, and the reason I say a little bit more men want their own kids is because men usually experience

33:52much less parenting than women because men are out working while women are, at least when the kids are young,

33:56so the women get more out of it than the men.

33:58Then you're paying for somebody else's genetics and it's not quite as good.

34:03But, so, yeah, so my point is that it will influence not just whether your kids reproduce, which you know

34:11they won't, but it also influences the kind of men or women who will date them.

34:17Because most people still at least want to have children.

34:22I know there's a bunch of propagandized people out there who say that they don't, but most people want to

34:28have kids.

34:29And if I, when I was a single man, if I had dated a woman who had said, I am

34:36unable to have children, I would, you know, shake her hand and wish her the best, but I wouldn't continue

34:42because that's what I want.

34:44That's sort of the default setting for human beings.

34:47So, the deal with being born is that you have a baton, right?

34:53And I don't know if you've ever run a relay race.

34:55You probably have, you know, you pass the baton.

34:56But, so, in, if you, if you have four people in the baton running race, got to go around the

35:03track, right?

35:03Maybe it's a thousand meters, it's every 250 meters, there's someone.

35:07If you knew that somebody wasn't going to pass the baton forward, would you even show up for the race?

35:12Right.

35:13I mean, it wouldn't bother because you can't win.

35:15There's no point.

35:16Yeah.

35:16Whatsoever.

35:17Yeah.

35:17And so, for the most part, people have children for the sake of continuing the bloodline, of seeing them get

35:25married, of,

35:26holding their grandchildren, of helping to raise the grandchildren, great-grandchildren, extended family.

35:31So, for the most part, people have children on the assumption of fertility and a continuance of the life.

35:37In the same way that, if I'm in a relay race, I hand a baton to someone, hoping they're going

35:41to sprint like crazy and get to the next person.

35:43And so, it's not, obviously, it's not evil to not have kids.

35:49And nobody should ever be forced to, of course.

35:51I mean, abortion is another matter of item, in terms of, like, nobody should be forced to have children.

35:56But it is a massive rejection of the most elemental social contract, which is why you exist in the first

36:05place.

36:06Right.

36:07Right.

36:07And people say, well, but I really enjoy my life without kids.

36:10And it's like, but if your parents had done that, you wouldn't be here to enjoy your life without kids

36:15if your parents had felt that way.

36:16And also, if your parents had known ahead of time that you weren't going to have kids, it's much less

36:21likely they would have had you.

36:23Because it's sad, right?

36:24I mean, you see this in your siblings.

36:27I mean, it's kind of a bit of a sad and empty life, in particular for women from, like, 40

36:32to 85 or 90 sometimes these days.

36:34Like a half century where they're not being pursued by the kind of men they want.

36:39And they can't offer kids and they can only spend time, really, around other sad sack, kidless people.

36:49And because it's tough, you know, I felt this very big split when I first became a parent.

36:58Because you're so fascinated by your children and you love them so much that other people can't quite get it.

37:04And your life has just changed so irrevocably.

37:07It's kind of like, you know, when you get married and it's even more strong than this.

37:12But, like, when you get married and your friends are going to the club and, you know, they're going to,

37:17like, drinking spring break weekends in Miami and stuff like that.

37:22It's like, yeah, I'm not doing that.

37:25I'm married now.

37:27And so you just, but kids is even bigger.

37:29It's an even bigger divergence.

37:30And I don't, yeah, it didn't take too long after I had, after I became a father, it didn't take

37:39too long to just have less and less in common and just fall out of touch with the people I

37:44knew who didn't have kids.

37:46Because, you know, I don't know if this is just some big value judgment or anything like that.

37:50But it just, it's just such a low stakes life.

37:54You know, like, you have a kid and, you know, you're nursing through illnesses and you help them learn how

37:57to walk and they fall down and you put your band-aids on and, you know, maybe you've got to

38:01take them to the hospital once in a while.

38:02And people are like, I'm not getting the promotion I want at work.

38:05And it's like, yeah, yeah.

38:06You know, it's just such low stakes nonsense that when you actually have a human life to take care of,

38:13in your case, three, you're just playing such high stakes games that, you know, it's like, yeah, you've got, you've

38:22got half a million dollars on one roulette spin and other people have got five bucks on a blackjack and

38:28they're like telling you about their issues.

38:30And it's like, I'm sorry, we're just playing in completely different games and completely different leagues.

38:34Right.

38:35Right.

38:36So I suppose the short answer to the ethical dilemma is evangelize parenthood to the extent I can and some

38:44will take it and some won't.

38:45And that's just how life is.

38:47And let's not be afraid to shame.

38:49Yeah.

38:50Yeah.

38:51Like, I'm sorry, it is shameful to not have kids if you can, right?

38:54Or you should at least try.

38:55And, you know, some people that never meet the right person or they have medical issues or health issues and,

38:59you know, huge sympathy for that.

39:01Of course, nobody's talking.

39:02I mean, that's like saying, you know, people should exercise.

39:05It's like, oh, yeah.

39:07What if you're a paraplegic?

39:08It's like, yeah, but I'm not talking about that.

39:10Right.

39:11So.

39:11Right.

39:12No.

39:12And it's like, if people say to me, I don't want to have kids.

39:17I give them these old arguments and, you know, they, they're not moved by any of it.

39:21It's like, okay, well, just admit it.

39:23You're just lazy.

39:24You're just lazy.

39:25Yeah.

39:25You're just lazy and entitled.

39:27And you'd rather do some stupid brunch than have a baby fall asleep on your chest to your breathing, you

39:33know, which is fantastic.

39:34Right.

39:35And so, yeah, you, you just want to live for yourself.

39:38You're just a selfish person.

39:39All I say to people is don't dress it up in something that it's not.

39:44Right.

39:45Right.

39:46It's like the, um, the people who just want to sleep around.

39:49It's like, so you're a sex addict.

39:51Right.

39:52I mean, let's not pretend that they, Oh, it's live free and easy.

39:56And, you know, the important thing is to get laid over.

39:59It's like, no, you're just a sex addict.

40:01You know, like all the people who are like, Hey man, weed, it opens your mind and it's all natural.

40:05And don't be such a stodgy, you know, whatever.

40:08Right.

40:09And it's like, no, you're just a drug addict.

40:11Like, let's just call this what it is.

40:13And, uh, people don't like, I'm just working on a presentation called the truth about marijuana.

40:18That will be quite exciting.

40:19But so, uh, you know, the, the beginning of wisdom, as the old saying goes, is to call

40:24things by their proper names.

40:26And yeah.

40:27And so, uh, you know, you're just, uh, um, a lazy entitled, selfish hedonist.

40:33And, you know, uh, this is called it for what it is.

40:37I, I don't mind if people are lazy, selfish, entitled hedonists.

40:40It bothers me when they lie about it and say that, Oh no, it's because I care about the

40:45environment.

40:45It's like, no, you don't.

40:46And the other thing, of course, is anybody who says they care about the environment,

40:49the point where they're not even having kids.

40:52You just, all you have to do is say, when did you last go to Starbucks?

40:56Right.

40:57You know, do you, do you have anything in your house that is not essential?

41:00Do you have a car?

41:02Have you ever taken an airplane?

41:04How about a boat?

41:04Do you ever like, of course, right?

41:06They've done all of these things when they don't have to.

41:08So let's not talk about the environment as being some massive consideration.

41:11Because if it was a massive consideration, they'd be living purely minimalistically.

41:16And of course, people, people want to not have kids so they can travel.

41:20And then they say it's got something to do with the environment.

41:22It's like, bro, what do you think travel does to the environment?

41:24Come on.

41:25Right.

41:26Come on.

41:27All right.

41:28Move myself and through carbon across entire continents.

41:31Then cake.

41:32And then talk about the carbon consumption of children.

41:35It's like completely ridiculous.

41:36I mean, how many jet engines does it take to, how many, how many baby's breasts does it

41:42take to make up for one, one flight with four jet engines?

41:45I mean, come on.

41:46Right.

41:47So, yeah.

41:47So I think it's, I don't mind what people do.

41:52I just don't want them to lie about it.

41:53And I will absolutely shame people for lying about stuff and saying, you know, well, it's

41:59about the troubles of the world.

42:01It's like, I mean, I, I grew up with nuclear war and I'm sure you did as well, but a

42:08nuclear

42:08war was like, did they had this doomsday clock, the bulletin of the atomic scientists, it's

42:14minutes to midnight.

42:15It's like, so I grew up with, I could get completely vaporized at any time with no, no warning and

42:24no recourse.

42:25And not just me would die.

42:27Everything would be wiped out.

42:28Cities, civilizations, everything.

42:31And so the idea that this is the worst time ever, come on, people had kids during Black

42:37Death.

42:37People had kids during the fall of Rome.

42:39People had kids during famines and wars and, and plagues of every kind.

42:44And like, don't, don't give me this nonsense about, we live the most comfortable life in

42:49human existence.

42:50Yeah.

42:51I mean, imagine, imagine having to have sex with someone who hadn't bathed in a year and

42:56never brushed their teeth.

42:58You know, like, let's not get all kinds of freshers here, right?

43:02All right.

43:04Absolutely.

43:05Absolutely.

43:06Yeah.

43:08All right.

43:08That's, uh, I wanted to get across.

43:10I mean, how did I roughly do, uh, just, just be firm about it and just, just don't let people

43:15lie to themselves about stuff.

43:16Uh, yeah, I just, I think it's so sad and I want to do something, but I, you know, I

43:21don't want to poison the well.

43:23I don't want to damage people by saying, yeah, go ahead, get yourself sterilized.

43:28It's because it is tragic.

43:30Oh, it's horrible.

43:31And the other thing too, it's like, and this is a little bit more true for women than men.

43:35It's like, look, if somebody said, look, I, I want to write the greatest symphonies in

43:40human history.

43:41So I can't really afford to have kids.

43:43I'm like, okay, I can, I can vaguely get that.

43:47Or I, I'm going to write the greatest novel or I'm going to, I don't know, whatever it

43:50is.

43:51I'm going to be at this or that, contribute in some significant way to culture or not.

43:55I want to be a great scientist.

43:56I want to cure cancer and so I can't afford to have, I mean, that's one thing.

44:00And it's not a great case, but it's a better case.

44:04Right.

44:04Because most people, the best thing they can do in terms of life satisfaction and contribution

44:10to the world is have children.

44:12You know, very few of us are Mozart or Einstein or, you know, Tycho Brahe or Alexander Salker.

44:20Very few of us are going to make any big, significant contribution to human history.

44:25And so, like, you give up kids for what?

44:28For some great grand ambition or I'm going to, you know, rewrite the laws of physics or

44:35I don't know, whatever, right?

44:36Be a playwright.

44:38Most people end up not having kids and doing what with all that extra time and money?

44:44I mean, what have your siblings done?

44:46Right.

44:47Right.

44:48I mean, no, seriously, what have they done?

44:50I mean, maybe they have cured cancer or, you know, worked in that direction.

44:53No, yeah, it's very true.

44:55It's very true.

44:56They're just, you know, people are just drifting now, waiting for something.

45:01I don't know what.

45:04It's, yeah.

45:05Yeah, it's really sad.

45:06I don't know.

45:06It's really sad.

45:08Yeah, because then people are like, I'm going to do all this cool stuff when I don't have

45:11kids.

45:12And, you know, frankly, what do they get done?

45:16What do they do?

45:17What do they do?

45:19I mean, there's an old saying in the business world, if you want something done, give it

45:24to the busiest person you can find.

45:26Right, right.

45:27And most people are like, oh, I'm going to do all these great things.

45:30And so you end up basically not having kids and then just watching a bunch of Netflix

45:35garbage and eating some popcorn.

45:38It's like, well, okay.

45:39So because, you know, the devil, so to speak, will tempt you with all the stuff that

45:45is never going to get delivered, right?

45:47Oh, you'll have this great life and you'll be getting off to Paris and having baguettes

45:54and then you'll go and explore the cathedrals in Berlin and then, well, the mosques, I guess.

45:59Right.

46:00So you will do all of these.

46:02And then what happens is you end up working 10 hours a day.

46:05You're kind of tired at night and you get two or three weeks vacation a year.

46:09Right.

46:09And all of this wonderful, majestic stuff never comes to pass, never comes to be.

46:16And you end up neither with the kids nor the great experiences nor the big achievements

46:20and you get nothing.

46:22And in the end, you leave it all behind anyway.

46:25Yeah.

46:26Yeah.

46:27I mean, and the thing too, because she's like, well, I'm going to have all this extra money.

46:30And it's like, okay.

46:31So, I mean, you know how it goes.

46:33If you've seen your parents, you, you.

46:36Certainly.

46:36When you're young and you have time and energy, you don't have money.

46:39And when you're older and you have money, you don't have time or energy.

46:43So.

46:43Right.

46:44This idea that money is going to make everything better and solve all your problems and it's

46:48going to be just wonderful and fantastic.

46:49And, you know, you never know when you're going to get hit by a bus or have some fell

46:52disease take you down or something like that.

46:54So, yeah, all of this stuff, I'm going to save all this money.

46:57And it's like, yeah, maybe.

46:59But, you know, you're probably not going to be able to do that much that's interesting

47:02with it.

47:03And travel is not even that interesting.

47:05You know, is it really so fantastic to go and have coffee in a different place?

47:10Right.

47:11Really not.

47:12It's okay.

47:12Whatever.

47:13It's not bad.

47:13I've done a fair amount of travel, but not too much recreationally.

47:17Most of the travel that I've done has been, you know, back when I could give speeches

47:20and stuff like that.

47:21So, but I mean, they're not going to, I mean, you're not going to, oh, I took a, I took

47:28a

47:28selfie at the base of the Eiffel Tower.

47:30It's like, yeah, yes, you did.

47:32But you did not hold it.

47:34Yeah.

47:34Like, so what?

47:35And, and you're just a parasite in that way, because it's not like you built the damn

47:38Eiffel Tower or built the camera or, you know, paved the streets.

47:42You're just, you're just standing around looking at things that other people have done and

47:47claiming that you've achieved something.

47:49Oh, look, I, I saw the Taj Mahal.

47:51It's like, yeah, great.

47:52You know, so did a leaf blowing past, so to speak.

47:55Right.

47:55It still didn't take it.

47:56Right.

47:58Yeah.

47:59And children is the most creativity that most people will ever be able to achieve.

48:05And they don't even take partake of that and they don't get any, um, there's no, uh, there's

48:11no consolation prize for most people.

48:13And again, you could look at someone like, I don't know, Freddie Mercury didn't have any

48:16kids and, and so on.

48:18And it's like, yeah, but you know, at least he left some pretty cool music behind and all

48:21of that.

48:21But most people aren't even going to do that.

48:23And then all you basically have got is, is kidhood for any kind of real achievement and

48:31satisfaction in this life.

48:32And it is, yes, just profoundly, profoundly selfish to take a four billion year inheritance

48:38that your ancestors went through literal hell in order to provide to you and then fridger

48:42it away on lattes and museums that put you to sleep.

48:47It's just, that's really sad.

48:49Certainly.

48:49Yeah.

48:50So if to protect our own children from the antinatalism that is being forced on them

48:56from every corner, you know, you have to combat that, I think.

48:59I mean, it is the, of course, there was some talk with the COVID vaccines that maybe they

49:04were going to have issues with fertility and so on because they gathered in the uterus

49:09and so on.

49:10I don't know.

49:11I mean, I've given up trying to sort this kind of stuff out because I have no idea what

49:15the data is and I'm not going to go and do the research myself and I'm not a statistician

49:20and so on, but the way that I sort of, you know, it's very sad, but the way that I

49:24sort

49:24of thought about it, which is not to say that this is right, but I'm just sort of telling

49:27you how, is that, okay, so let's say that the people who took the vaccines are going

49:33to have some trouble having kids.

49:35I mean, A, that's really sad and I wish it had been different and so on.

49:40But the other thing that I would say is if there was one group that is going to end up

49:47less fertile that would have the least amount of sorrow associated with that, it would be

49:54something like, well, we want the people most susceptible to mindless propaganda and the

49:59ones most susceptible to turning on their fellow citizens and stripping of their human rights

50:04because they're not obeying the commandments of the all-loving, all-knowable government.

50:08Well, it's those people, the people who want you locked inside your house and want your

50:11right to travel taken away and want you to have to provide a passport to get on a bus

50:16and don't want you to be able to get groceries because you're not putting this mystery goop

50:20into your veins.

50:21I mean, it's those people, if I had to choose a group, you know, of people where I would be

50:25the least sad about them not being or having difficulty reproducing, it would be that group.

50:32And so if people, if they're not willing to listen to reason and they just want to pursue,

50:37you know, this selfish, compliant hedonism, you know, I, you know, what matters to me,

50:43and I'm sure it is to you as well, what matters to me is that I, I'm good with my

50:50conscience.

50:51Right.

50:51And if, um, if I've made the case and people don't listen, then, um, what means is that

50:59fewer people who are hostile to philosophy will end up, um, having, uh, having children.

51:06And, uh, I don't know how that's going to be bad in the long run, if that makes sense.

51:09Right, yeah, for sure.

51:11For sure.

51:12For sure.

51:13Yeah.

51:14Yeah.

51:15All right.

51:16Is there anything else that you wanted to mention?

51:18I appreciate the call and thanks for your patience as we got this all.

51:22So thank you for your time.

51:23And I'm, I'm sorry for the tech issues.

51:24I'll try to fix that before next time.

51:27Excellent.

51:28So yes, sir.

51:29All right, brother.

51:30Thank you for a great chat and congratulations on your family.

51:33You certainly did better than I did.

51:35And I'm, I'm thrilled for that.

51:36And, uh, I hope we'll talk again.

51:38Yes, sir.

51:38You as well.

51:39All the best.

51:40Bye-bye.

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