00:00Joining me now is Kelly Clements, the UN's Deputy High Commissioner for Refugees.
00:06Really good to have you with us.
00:07Thanks very much for having me.
00:08So I'd like to start with the situation in Lebanon.
00:11We know that strikes have escalated again in recent days,
00:14despite a ceasefire being in place in principle.
00:17And obviously this is a country with very complex displacement crisis going on.
00:22What's your assessment of the situation on the ground as we speak?
00:25Well, it really remains quite serious.
00:28We have seen already a million Lebanese, mostly from the south, that have headed north
00:35and gone to pretty much any place that they can find safety.
00:39The needs are enormous in terms of just shelter, being able to support their families,
00:44being able to find services, putting kids back into school and so on.
00:48It's also impacted Syrian refugees because, of course,
00:52Syrians have found refuge for the last 14 years in Lebanon.
00:58And Lebanon has historically been the largest host per capita of refugees in the world.
01:04And so it's impacted Lebanese and Syrians.
01:07We've seen actually some, particularly Lebanese, going into Beqa and Syrians from Beqa actually
01:13crossing into Syria.
01:16And this, in the last few months, we've seen something in the neighborhood of some 550,000
01:24Lebanese and Syrians, primarily Syrians, but about 100,000 Lebanese,
01:29because they can't make ends meet inside Lebanon.
01:32So the international community is working very closely with Lebanese authorities,
01:37with social affairs in particular, to try to find community support,
01:42to be able to find housing solutions, trying to ensure that collective centers
01:47don't become centers for too long, because those tend to be schools and health clinics
01:51and other places where, frankly, those services need to continue.
01:54I'd like to maybe shift, pivot now to Ukraine.
01:58We know that the EU has offered temporary protection for Ukrainians fleeing war since 2022.
02:05But there is now an open debate here in Brussels about potentially tweaking those rules,
02:12particularly because of concerns that men approaching conscription age are fleeing into Europe.
02:18What are your thoughts on this?
02:19Well, my thoughts, because, you know, this is a situation now that we have a considerably
02:24large operation inside the country and obviously have supported countries like Moldova to take
02:30care of Ukrainians in the last few years, is what's happening in Ukraine currently.
02:34You know, the war has not abated.
02:37It's become more intense, more civilians caught in the middle.
02:39You have more territory that is basically taken over or occupied.
02:45Homes are not able to be inhabited by residents.
02:48You have more displacement inside the country.
02:50So the circumstances that created the conditions for the European Union to issue temporary protection
02:57have largely not ended.
03:00So I think in and I realize it's an active debate, but if hopefully those until the war ends,
03:07there would be an opportunity to keep those temporary protections in place so that people can support
03:12themselves and so that the responsibility doesn't fall on duly on other nations in the European Union.
03:20Until then, if there's if there is any sign of it lifting, it should be done very gradually with other
03:27options for those that need to take care of themselves when it's not possible to go back safely or voluntarily.
03:32So you're saying that any change would need to be gradual.
03:36But in terms of the political ask is to address this concern that men approaching construction age are fleeing.
03:46Would that be acceptable in a sense or would that be discriminating in some way in terms of the people
03:52that can flee conflict?
03:54Well, it's the the the the issue is to find peace so that the war stops, that people don't have
04:01to flee, that there aren't elements where a country needs to to have people drafted to be able to fight
04:10the war first and foremost.
04:12In terms of the the ability for people to to to seek asylum, there's always a right to seek asylum.
04:19Those conditions obviously are addressed on a case by case basis.
04:23Meanwhile, the EU is also really adopting a much harder line, many would say, on its asylum and migration policies.
04:30We know there's a big overhaul of the EU's laws coming into force at the end of this week.
04:36And it includes sort of efforts to speed up the return of migrants deemed not to have the legal right
04:43to stay in the EU.
04:45From your initial assessments, do you think this will change anything or do you assess that migrants seeking refuge will
04:54continue to come to Europe,
04:57knowing, of course, that the numbers have slightly decreased as well in recent years?
05:00Well, from UNHCR's perspective, we have welcomed the pack on migration and asylum before it was a piecemeal approach.
05:08All 27 members taking their own direction, which led to inefficiencies.
05:14It led to abuse and so on.
05:17We've been working very closely with the European Union and those drafters to ensure that there are safeguards.
05:23It's something that we've worked very, very carefully.
05:27You know, I think, you know, it's not just about the right to seek asylum,
05:30but it's also about the return of those that don't have the right to to continue to stay in territory
05:36where they've already had that claim validated or invalidated.
05:41And so to have those tools available, both to prevent abuse,
05:46but also to protect those that are that need that kind of protection is absolutely important.
05:51And this is a step in the right direction.
05:53And we look forward to working with the European Union as it's put into place and as it starts to
05:59become operational.
06:00And we continue to work on helping them fine tune it.
06:04One of the most controversial aspects, let's say, has been the concept of this return hubs that could be set
06:10in third countries
06:12where migrants who have failed to acquire asylum could be sent to before they are returned to their home countries.
06:21Are you concerned at all about the potential breaches of fundamental rights that this could involve?
06:30You know, returns hubs in and of themselves could be used as as an instrument.
06:36But it depends what is put into place in terms of those safeguards in and certain conditions.
06:42What do they exist?
06:43You know, we would obviously advocate for freedom of movement, for example, for this not to be, as you called
06:49it, a detention facility,
06:50that we would certainly not want to see families separated.
06:53There are certain things that would need to be put into place, obviously consistent with international human rights and humanitarian
07:01law.
07:01And these protections obviously would have to accompany that kind of of an implementation.
07:07Because you did mention that this piecemeal approach previously had led to abuses in some cases.
07:12Are you confident that there is a focus and enough political capital, let's say, being dedicated into making sure that
07:19that changes?
07:20Well, there's been a lot of political capital to making the pact a reality.
07:27And I think there's been a lot of discussion, including with organizations like ours.
07:32And I expect that that will continue.
07:35As part of its efforts to kind of speed up the returns of migrants who don't have the legal right
07:40to stay in the EU,
07:42and the commission here is also planning on technical talks with officials from the Taliban to discuss the prospect of
07:50returning Afghan nationals who do not have the right to stay in Europe to Afghanistan.
07:56And I know the UNHCR works in Afghanistan.
07:59Can you tell us about the conditions there and whether the conditions are in place to return Afghan nationals from
08:08Europe to the country?
08:09Well, it's been a couple of years since I've been to Afghanistan.
08:13But this is a country since then that has seen millions of Afghans go home, some voluntarily and many under
08:21adverse conditions.
08:23Inside Afghanistan, you have a crumbling economy.
08:27You have infrastructure and services in some places that are nonexistent.
08:32And you have a country that has now received in the last year about three, three and a half million
08:40people from Iran and Pakistan in particular.
08:44And some of those returns have also been under adverse conditions.
08:49So to say it's a fragile country would be an understatement.
08:54And the the issues with regard to what more in terms of can be received, we have to take care
09:00and help help the communities be able to take care of themselves.
09:03We're doing what we can in terms of humanitarian support.
09:06But it's very minimal in terms of the international community support.
09:11Their funding is low.
09:13We've not received as a U.N. or the partner agencies the support we need just for humanitarian needs,
09:19not to mention the larger scale rehabilitation that is required, given given what's happened in Afghanistan.
09:26The other issue very fundamentally are rights and women's rights, the lack of girls education,
09:32other things that would make it possible for communities and economies to flourish do not exist.
09:39So all of these factors should be should be kept carefully in mind.
09:43So in this context, and given the situation you've just outlined, would you say it is appropriate for you governments
09:50to be discussing this prospect with the Taliban regime?
09:55Well, I would certainly not get in the way of politics or policy on the part of those member states.
10:00But to keep in mind what's happening in the country now and to the citizens of that country.
10:04OK, Kelly Clements, thank you so much for joining us on EUR News.
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