"In this compelling Dailymotion video, we explore the recent intellectual contributions and personal journey of Dr. Jordan B. Peterson. We dive deep into his highly anticipated new book, 'We Who Wrestle with God: Perceptions of the Divine,' examining its core themes of mythology, psychology, and the ancient stories that shape Western thought. Discover how Peterson analyzes concepts like rebellion, sacrifice, suffering, and redemption, offering a unique perspective on human consciousness and the pursuit of meaning. We also provide an update on his recent health, discussing his recovery progress and the enduring impact of his work. This video is essential viewing for anyone interested in personal development, philosophy, and the profound ideas of one of the most influential thinkers of our time."
#JordanPeterson #WeWhoWrestleWithGod #Psychology #Philosophy #MeaningOfLife #PersonalDevelopment #BiblicalSeries #Consciousness #HealthUpdate #Dailymotion #NewBook #SelfHelp #Culture #Truth #Meaning
#JordanPeterson #WeWhoWrestleWithGod #Psychology #Philosophy #MeaningOfLife #PersonalDevelopment #BiblicalSeries #Consciousness #HealthUpdate #Dailymotion #NewBook #SelfHelp #Culture #Truth #Meaning
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CreativityTranscript
00:00Jordan Peterson, you've said that men need to, quote, grow the hell up. Tell me why.
00:05Well, because there's nothing uglier than an old infant. There's nothing good about it.
00:11People who don't grow up don't find the sort of meaning in their life that sustains them through difficult times,
00:17and they are certain to encounter difficult times.
00:20And they're left bitter and resentful and without purpose and adrift and hostile and resentful and vengeful and arrogant and
00:28deceitful.
00:29And of no use to themselves and of no use to anyone else and no partner for a woman.
00:35There's nothing in it that's good.
00:37So, I mean, that sounds pretty bad. You're saying there's a crisis of masculinity. I mean, what do you do
00:41about it?
00:43You tell, you help people understand why it's necessary and important for them to grow up and adopt responsibility.
00:52Why that isn't a shake your finger and get your act together sort of thing.
00:56Why it's more like a delineation of the kind of destiny that makes life worth living.
01:04I've been telling young men, but it's not, I wasn't specifically aiming this message at young men to begin with.
01:09It just kind of turned out that way.
01:11And it's mostly, you admit, it's mostly men listening.
01:13I mean, 90% of your audience is a male, right?
01:15It's about 80% on YouTube, which is a, YouTube is a male domain primarily.
01:20So it's hard to tell how much of it is because YouTube is male and how much of it is
01:24because of what I'm saying.
01:25But what I've been telling young men is that there's an actual reason why they need to grow up,
01:33which is that they have something to offer, you know, that people have within them this capacity to set the
01:40world straight
01:41and that's necessary to manifest in the world.
01:44And that also doing so is where you find the meaning that sustains you in life.
01:50So what's gone wrong then?
01:52Oh, God, all sorts of things have gone wrong.
01:55I think that, I don't think that young men are, hear words of encouragement.
02:01Some of them never in their entire lives, as far as I can tell.
02:03That's what they tell me.
02:04And the fact that the words that I've been, that I've been speaking, the YouTube lectures that I've done
02:09and put online, for example, have had such a dramatic impact is an indication that young men are starving
02:16for this sort of message because, like, why in the world would they have to derive it from a lecture
02:20on YouTube?
02:21Now, they're not being taught that they, that it's important to develop yourself.
02:26But does it, does it bother you that your audience is predominantly male?
02:31Does that, isn't, isn't that a bit divisive?
02:33No, I don't think so.
02:35I mean, it's no more divisive than the fact that YouTube is primarily male and Tumblr is primarily female.
02:40Well, that's pretty divisive, isn't it?
02:41Tumblr is primarily female.
02:44But you're just saying that's the way it is.
02:45Well, it's, I'm not saying anything.
02:47It's just an observation that that's the way it is.
02:50There's plenty of women that are watching my lectures and coming to my talks and buying my books.
02:54It's just that the majority of them happen to be men.
02:58What's in it for the women, though?
03:00Well, what sort of partner do you want?
03:02Do you want an overgrown child?
03:05Or do you want someone to contend with that's going to help you and that you can rely on?
03:08So you're saying women have some sort of duty to sort of help fix the crisis of masculinity?
03:12Well, it depends on what they want.
03:14You know, I mean, it's exactly how I laid it out.
03:18Like, women want, deeply want men who are competent and powerful.
03:25And I don't mean power in that they can exert tyrannical control over others.
03:33That's not power.
03:34That's just corruption.
03:35Power is competence.
03:37And why in the world would you not want a competent partner?
03:41Well, I know why, actually.
03:42You can't dominate a competent partner.
03:45So if you want domination...
03:47So you're saying women want you to dominate?
03:47Is that what you're saying?
03:48No, I'd say women who have had their relationships impaired with...
03:52Impaired...
03:53Their relationships with men impaired and who are afraid of such relationships will settle
03:58for a weak partner because they can dominate them.
04:00But it's a suboptimal solution.
04:02Do you think that's what a lot of women are doing?
04:05I think there's a substantial minority of women who do that.
04:08And I think it's very bad for them.
04:10They're very unhappy.
04:11It's very bad for their partners.
04:13Although their partners get the advantage of not having to take any responsibility.
04:16But what gives you the right to say that?
04:18I mean, maybe that's how women want their relationships, those women.
04:21I mean, you're making these vast generalisations.
04:24I'm a clinical psychologist.
04:25Right.
04:26So you're saying you've done your research and women are unhappy dominating men.
04:31I didn't say they were unhappy dominating men.
04:33I said it was a bad long-term solution.
04:35Okay, you said it was making them miserable.
04:37Yes, it is.
04:37And it depends on the time frame.
04:39I mean, there can be...
04:39There's intense pleasure in momentary domination.
04:42That's why people do it all the time.
04:44But it's no formula for a long-term...
04:46Successful long-term relationship.
04:47That's reciprocal, right?
04:49Any long-term relationship is reciprocal.
04:52Virtually by definition.
04:54So...
04:54Let me put a quote to you from the book.
04:57Well, you say,
04:57There are whole disciplines in universities forthrightly hostile towards men.
05:01These are the areas of study dominated by the postmodern stroke neo-Marxist claim that Western culture, in particular, is
05:08an oppressive structure created by white men to dominate and exclude women.
05:14But then I want to put to you...
05:15Minorities, too.
05:16Dominate and exclude women.
05:16Okay, sure.
05:17But I want to put to you that here in the UK, for example, let's take that as an example.
05:21The gender pay gap stands at just over 9%.
05:23You've got women at the BBC recently saying that the broadcaster is illegally paying them less than men to do
05:30the same job.
05:31You've got only seven women running the top FTSE 100 companies.
05:36Yeah.
05:36So it seems to a lot of women that they're still being dominated and excluded, to quote your words back
05:42to you.
05:42It does seem that way, but multivariate analysis of the pay gap indicate that it doesn't exist.
05:48But that's just not true, is it?
05:50I mean, that 9% pay gap, that's a gap between median hourly earnings between men and women.
05:55That exists.
05:56Yeah, but there's multiple reasons for that.
05:58One of them is gender, but it's not the only reason.
06:00Like, if you're a social scientist, worth your salt, you never do a univariate analysis.
06:06Like, you say, well, women in aggregate are paid less than men.
06:09Okay, well, then we break it down by age, we break it down by occupation, we break it down by
06:14interest, we break it down by personality.
06:16But you're saying, basically, it doesn't matter if women aren't getting to the top,
06:19because that's what's skewing that gender pay gap, isn't it?
06:22You're saying, well, that's just a fact of life.
06:23No, I'm not saying it doesn't matter.
06:24Women aren't necessarily going to get to the top.
06:25No, I'm not saying it doesn't matter either.
06:27You're saying it's a fact of life.
06:28I'm saying there are multiple reasons for it.
06:30Yeah, but those reasons, why should women put up with those reasons?
06:34Why should women be content not to get to the top?
06:37I'm not saying that they should put up with it.
06:37I'm saying that the claim that the wage gap between men and women is only due to sex is wrong.
06:44And it is wrong.
06:46There's no doubt about that.
06:47The multivariate analysis have been done.
06:49So I can give you an example.
06:50You keep on talking about multivariate analysis.
06:52Let me give you an example.
06:53I'm saying that 9% pay gap exists.
06:56That's a gap between men and women.
06:58I'm not saying why it exists, but it exists.
07:01Now, if you're a woman, that seems pretty unfair.
07:04You have to say why it exists.
07:06But do you agree that it's unfair?
07:07If you're a woman...
07:08Not necessarily.
07:09And on average, you're getting paid 9% less than a man.
07:11That's not fair, is it?
07:13It depends on why it's happening.
07:15I can give you an example.
07:17Okay.
07:18There's a personality trait known as agreeableness.
07:21Agreeable people are compassionate and polite.
07:24And agreeable people get paid less than less agreeable people for the same job.
07:29Women are more agreeable than men.
07:32Again, a vast generalization.
07:33Some women are not more agreeable than men.
07:35Yes, that's true.
07:36But that's right.
07:37And some women get paid more than men.
07:39So you were saying that, by and large, women are too agreeable to get the pay rises they deserve.
07:43No, I'm saying that that's one component of a multivariate equation that predicts salary.
07:51It accounts for maybe 5% of the variance, something like that.
07:54So surely the answer...
07:55So you need about another 18 factors, one of which is gender.
07:59And there is prejudice.
08:00There's no doubt about that.
08:01But it accounts for a much smaller proportion of the variance in the pay gap than the radical feminists claim.
08:08Okay, so rather than denying the pay gap exists, which is what you did at the beginning of this conversation,
08:13shouldn't you say to women, rather than being agreeable and not asking for a pay rise, go and ask for
08:17a pay rise.
08:17Make yourself disagreeable with your boss.
08:19Oh, definitely.
08:20There's that.
08:20But I also didn't deny it existed.
08:22I denied it existed because of gender.
08:25Okay.
08:25Because I'm very, very, very careful with my words.
08:30So the pay gap exists, you accept that.
08:33But you're saying, I mean, the pay gap between men and women exists.
08:36You're saying it's not because of gender, it's because women are too agreeable to ask for pay rises.
08:40It's one of the reasons.
08:41Okay, one of the reasons.
08:42So why not get them to ask for a pay rise?
08:43I've done that.
08:44I've done that many, many times in my career.
08:47And they just don't?
08:48Oh, they do it all the time.
08:49You can...
08:50So one of the things that you do as a clinical psychologist is assertiveness training.
08:55So you might say, often you treat people for anxiety, you treat them for depression,
09:04and maybe the next most common category after that would be assertiveness training.
09:07And so I've had many, many women, extraordinarily competent women, in my clinical and consulting
09:13practice.
09:14And we put together strategies for their career development that involve continual pushing,
09:18competing for higher wages, and often tripled their wages within a five-year period,
09:24teaching them how to negotiate.
09:25Of course.
09:26So do you agree that you would be happy if that pay gap was eliminated completely?
09:33Because that's all the radical feminists are saying.
09:36It would depend on how it was eradicated and how the disappearance of it was measured.
09:42And you're saying if it's at the cost of men, that's a problem?
09:45Oh, there's all sorts of things that it could be at the cost of.
09:48It could even be at the cost of women's own interests.
09:52Because they might not be happy if they get equal.
09:54No, because it might interfere with other things that are causing the pay gap that women
09:59are choosing to do.
09:59Like having children.
10:01Well, or choosing careers that actually happen to be paid less, which women do a lot of.
10:05But why shouldn't women have the right to choose not to have children, or the right
10:09to choose those demanding careers?
10:10They do.
10:11They can.
10:12Yeah, that's fine.
10:13But you're saying that makes them unhappy, by and large?
10:16I'm saying that that...
10:17No, I'm not saying that.
10:18And I actually haven't said that so far in the program.
10:20You're saying it makes them miserable?
10:22No, I said that what was making them miserable was having weak partners.
10:27That makes them miserable.
10:29Right.
10:29So I would say that many women around the age of, I would say between 28 and 32, have
10:35a career family crisis that they have to deal with.
10:38And I think that's partly because of the foreshortened time frame that women have to contend
10:43with.
10:43Like women have to get the major pieces of their life put together faster than men, which
10:49is also partly why men aren't under so much pressure to grow up.
10:51So because for the typical woman, she has to have her career and family in order pretty
10:58much by the time she's 35, because otherwise the options start to run out.
11:02And so that puts a tremendous amount of stress on women, especially at the end of their 20s.
11:06I think I take issue with the idea of the typical woman, because, you know, all women are different.
11:11And that's why I want to just put another quote to you from the book.
11:13Well, they're different in some ways and the same in others.
11:16Okay, you say women become more vulnerable when they have children.
11:19Oh, yes.
11:20And you talked to one of your YouTube interviews about crazy harpy sisters.
11:26So, simple question.
11:27Is gender equality a myth in your view?
11:30Is that something that's just never going to happen?
11:32It depends on what you mean by equality.
11:35Being treated fairly, getting the same opportunities.
11:41Fairly.
11:42We could get to a point where people were treated fairly or more fairly.
11:46I mean, people are treated pretty fairly in Western culture already, but we can improve that.
11:50They're really not, though, are they?
11:51I mean, otherwise, why would there only be seven women running FTSE 100 companies in the UK?
11:56Why would there still be a pay gap, which we've discussed at length?
11:59Why are women at the BBC saying that they're getting paid illegally less than men to do the same job?
12:05That's not fair, is it?
12:06Let's go to the first question.
12:07Those are complicated questions.
12:10Seven women, repeat that one.
12:11Seven women running the top FTSE 100 companies in the UK.
12:15Well, the first question might be, why would you want to do that?
12:19Why would a man want to do it?
12:21I mean, it's a lot of money.
12:23It's an interesting job.
12:24There's a certain number of men, although not that many, who are perfectly willing to sacrifice virtually all of their
12:31life to the pursuit of a high-end career.
12:34So they'll work.
12:35These are men that are very intelligent.
12:37They're usually very, very conscientious.
12:39They're very driven.
12:40They're very high energy.
12:41They're very healthy.
12:42And they're willing to work 70 or 80 hours a week, non-stop, specialised at one thing to get to
12:48the top.
12:49So you're saying women are just more sensible.
12:50They don't want that because it's not a nice life.
12:52I'm saying that's part of it, definitely.
12:54And so I work for...
12:55You don't think there are barriers in their way that prevent them getting to the top of those companies?
12:59Oh, there are some barriers, yeah.
13:00Like men, for example.
13:02I mean, to get to the top of any organisation is an incredibly competitive enterprise.
13:07And the men that you're competing with are simply not going to roll over and say, please take the position.
13:12So let me come back to my question.
13:13It's absolute all-out warfare.
13:14Is gender equality a myth?
13:17I don't know what you mean by the question.
13:19Men and women aren't the same, and they won't be the same.
13:21That doesn't mean they can't be treated fairly.
13:23Is gender equality desirable?
13:26If it means equality of outcome, then almost certainly it's undesirable.
13:29That's already been demonstrated in Scandinavia.
13:32Because in Scandinavia...
13:33What do you mean by that?
13:34Equality of outcome is undesirable.
13:36Well, men and women won't sort themselves into the same categories if you leave them alone to do it off
13:40their own accord.
13:41We've already seen that in Scandinavia.
13:43It's 20 to 1 female nurses to male, something like that.
13:47It might not be quite that extreme.
13:48And approximately the same male engineers to female engineers.
13:52And that's a consequence of the free choice of men and women in the societies that have gone farther than
13:57any other societies to make gender equality the purpose of the law.
14:01Those are ineradicable differences.
14:03You can eradicate them with tremendous social pressure and tyranny.
14:07But if you leave men and women to make their own choices, you will not get equal outcome.
14:11Right.
14:11So you're saying that anyone who believes in equality, whether you call them feminists, call them whatever you want to
14:16call them, should basically give up because it ain't going to happen.
14:19Only if they're aiming at equality of outcome.
14:23So you're saying give people equality of opportunity.
14:26That's fine.
14:27It's not only fine.
14:28It's eminently desirable for everyone, for individuals and for society.
14:32But still women aren't going to make it.
14:33That's what you're really saying.
14:34It depends on your measurement techniques.
14:36They're doing just fine in medicine.
14:38In fact, there are far more female physicians than there are male physicians.
14:41There are lots of disciplines that are absolutely dominated by women.
14:46Many, many disciplines.
14:47And they're doing great.
14:49Let me put something else to you from the book.
14:51You say, the introduction of the equal pay for equal work argument immediately complicates even salary comparison beyond practicality.
14:58For one simple reason.
15:00Who decides what work is equal?
15:02It's not possible.
15:03So the simple question is, do you believe in equal pay?
15:08Well, I made the argument there.
15:10It's like it depends on who defines it.
15:11So you don't believe in equal pay?
15:13No, I'm not saying that at all.
15:15Because a lot of people listening to you will just say, I mean, are we going back to the dark
15:19age?
15:19That's because you're actually not listening.
15:21They're just projecting what they think.
15:23I'm hearing you basically saying women need to just accept.
15:26They're never going to make it on equal terms.
15:29Equal outcomes is how you defined it.
15:31No, I didn't say that.
15:32If I was a young woman watching that, I would go, well,
15:34I might as well just go and play with my Cindy dolls and give up trying at school
15:38because I'm not going to get the top job I want.
15:41Because there's someone sitting there saying it's not possible.
15:43It's not desirable.
15:44It's going to make you miserable.
15:45That's what I said.
15:46It's a bad social goal.
15:48I didn't say that women shouldn't be striving for the top or anything like that
15:52because I don't believe that for a second.
15:54Striving for the top, but you're going to put all those hurdles in their way
15:56as has been in their way for centuries.
15:59And that's fine.
15:59You're saying that's fine.
16:00No, no.
16:01I think I really think that's silly.
16:04I do.
16:04I think that's silly.
16:05I really do.
16:06I mean, look, look at your situation.
16:08You're hardly unsuccessful.
16:09Yeah.
16:10And I battled quite hard to get where I've got to.
16:12Good for you.
16:13So that's okay.
16:13Battling is good.
16:14This is all about the fight.
16:16But you talk about men fighting.
16:18Let me just put another thing to you from the book.
16:19You're saying...
16:20Why wouldn't you have to battle for a high quality position?
16:23Well, I notice in your book,
16:24you talk about real conversations between men containing, quote,
16:28an underlying threat of physicality.
16:30Oh, there's no doubt about that.
16:31What about real conversations between women?
16:33Is that something or are we sort of too amenable and reasonable?
16:37No, it's just that the domain of physical conflict
16:40is sort of off limits for you.
16:42Well, you just said that I fought to get where I've got.
16:44Yeah.
16:45What does that make me?
16:45A proxy man or something?
16:47I don't imagine that you've...
16:48Yeah, to some degree.
16:49I suspect you're not very agreeable.
16:50So that's the thing.
16:52Successful women.
16:53I'm not very agreeable.
16:53Right.
16:54I've noticed that actually in this conversation.
16:56And I'm sure it's served your career well.
16:59Successful women, though,
17:01basically have to wear the trousers, in your view.
17:03They have to sort of become men to succeed,
17:05is what you're saying.
17:06Well, if they're going to...
17:07I've had to fight to succeed,
17:08therefore I'm an honorary man.
17:09If they're going to compete against men,
17:10certainly masculine traits are going to be helpful.
17:12I mean, one of the things I do in my counselling practice,
17:16for example,
17:16when I'm consulting with women
17:18who are trying to advance their careers
17:19is to teach them how to negotiate
17:21and to be able to say no
17:23and to not be easily pushed around
17:24and to be formidable.
17:26And you need to...
17:27If you're going to be successful,
17:28you need to be smart,
17:30conscientious and tough.
17:31Well, here's a radical idea.
17:32Why don't the bosses adopt some...
17:34The male bosses, shall we say,
17:36adopt some female traits
17:37so that women don't have to fight
17:39and get their sharp elbows out for the pay rises?
17:41It's just accepted if they're doing the same job,
17:43they get the same pay.
17:45Well, I would say partly because
17:46it's not so easy to determine
17:48what constitutes the same job.
17:49But that's because, arguably,
17:52there are still men dominating our industries,
17:56our society,
17:57and therefore they've dictated the terms for so long
17:59that women have to battle to be like the men.
18:02No, it's not true.
18:03It's not true.
18:05So, for example...
18:05Where's the evidence?
18:06Well, I can give you an example very quickly.
18:08So I worked with women
18:10who worked in high-powered law firms in Canada
18:12for about 15 years,
18:14and they were as competent
18:16and put together as anybody you would ever meet,
18:18and we were trying to figure out
18:20how to further their careers.
18:22And there was a huge debate
18:24in Canadian society at that point
18:25that was basically...
18:27ran along the same lines as your argument,
18:29is that if the law firms
18:31didn't use these masculine criteria,
18:33then perhaps women would do better.
18:35But the market sets the damn game.
18:37It's like...
18:37And the market is dominated by men.
18:39No, it's not.
18:40It's not.
18:40The market is dominated by women.
18:41They make 80% of the consumer decisions.
18:44That's not the case at all.
18:4580%...
18:45If you're talking about people who stay at home
18:47looking after children,
18:49by and large, they are still women.
18:51So they're going out doing the shopping.
18:53But that is changing.
18:53They make all the consumer decisions.
18:55Okay, so what I want to ask you...
18:56The market is driven by women, not men.
18:57Right.
18:58Okay, and if you're a lawyer in Canada...
18:59And they still pay more for the same sort of goods.
19:02That's been proven.
19:03That men, for the...
19:04You buy a blue bicycle helmet,
19:06it's going to cost less than a pink one.
19:07Anyway, we'll come on to that.
19:08It's partly because men are less agreeable.
19:11Right, so they won't put up with it.
19:13I want to ask you,
19:15is it not desirable to have some of those female traits
19:18you're talking about?
19:18I'd say that's a generalization,
19:20but you've used the words female traits.
19:22Is it not desirable to have some of them
19:24at the top of business?
19:25I mean, maybe there wouldn't be...
19:26They don't predict success.
19:27A banking crisis.
19:27They don't predict success in the workplace.
19:29The things that predict success in the workplace
19:31are intelligence and conscientiousness.
19:33Agreeableness negatively predicts success in the workplace.
19:35And so does high negative emotion.
19:37You're saying that women aren't intelligent enough
19:39to run these top companies?
19:40No, I didn't say that at all.
19:42You said that female traits don't predict success.
19:45But I didn't say that intelligence wasn't...
19:47I didn't say that intelligence and conscientiousness
19:50Well, you were saying that intelligence and conscientiousness
19:52by implication are not female traits.
19:54Oh, no.
19:54I mean, that's very dangerous territory.
19:56I'm not saying that at all.
19:57Are women less intelligent than men, by and large?
19:59No, they're not.
20:00No, the data on that's pretty clear.
20:02The average IQ for a woman and the average IQ for a man
20:05is identical.
20:06There is some debate about the flatness of the distribution,
20:09which is something that James Damore pointed out,
20:11for example, in his memo.
20:12But there's no difference at all in general cognitive ability.
20:15There's no difference to speak of in conscientiousness.
20:18Women are a bit more orderly than men,
20:20and men are a little bit more industrious than women.
20:22But the difference isn't big.
20:24But that averages into conscientiousness.
20:25And in men who aren't necessarily as industrious.
20:27Of course, these are...
20:28But we'll...
20:29Female traits, though, why are they not...
20:31Feminine traits, let's say.
20:32Why are they not desirable at the top of...
20:33Feminine traits, why are they not desirable at the top of...
20:35It's hard to say.
20:36I'm just laying out the empirical evidence.
20:38Like, we know the traits that predict success.
20:41But we also know, because companies, by and large,
20:43have not been dominated by women over the centuries,
20:46we have nothing to compare it to.
20:48It's an experiment.
20:50True, and it could be the case that if companies
20:52modified their behavior and became more feminine,
20:54they would be successful.
20:55But there's no evidence for it.
20:57I'm not neither doubtful nor non-doubtful.
20:59There's no evidence for it.
21:00So why not give it a go, as the radical feminist would say?
21:02Because the evidence suggests...
21:03Well, it's fine.
21:04Like, if someone wants to start a company
21:06and make it more feminine and compassionate, let's say,
21:09and caring in its overall orientation towards its workers
21:13and towards the marketplace,
21:14then that's a perfectly reasonable experiment to run.
21:16My point is that there is no evidence
21:19that those traits predict success in the workplace.
21:22And there's...
21:22Because it's never been tried.
21:23Well, that's not really the case.
21:26Women have been in the workplace for, what,
21:28at least ever since I've been around,
21:30the representation of women in the workplace
21:32has been about 50%.
21:33So we've run the experiment
21:34for a fairly reasonable period of time,
21:36but not, you know, certainly not for centuries.
21:39Let me move on to another debate
21:40that's been very controversial for you.
21:43And this is...
21:44You got in trouble for refusing to call trans men and women
21:47by their preferred personal pronouns.
21:49No, that's not actually true.
21:51I got in trouble because I said I would not follow
21:54the compelled speech dictates
21:56of the federal and provincial government.
21:58I actually never got in trouble
21:59for not calling anyone anything.
22:01Right.
22:02That didn't happen.
22:02You wouldn't follow the change of law,
22:04which was designed to outlaw discrimination.
22:06No, no.
22:07Well, that's what they said it was designed to do.
22:10Okay.
22:10You cited freedom of speech in that.
22:12Why should your right to freedom of speech
22:14trump a trans person's right not to be offended?
22:21Because in order to be able to think,
22:23you have to risk being offensive.
22:25I mean, look at the conversation we're having right now.
22:28You know, like, you're certainly willing to risk
22:29offending me in the pursuit of truth.
22:31Why should you have the right to do that?
22:33It's been rather uncomfortable.
22:36Well, I'm very glad I put you on the spot.
22:38I'm very glad that I have exercised my freedom of speech.
22:41You get my point.
22:41It's like, you're doing what you should do,
22:44which is digging a bit to see what the hell's going on.
22:46And that is what you should do.
22:48But you're exercising your freedom of speech
22:50to certainly risk offending me.
22:52And that's fine.
22:53I think more power to you as far as I'm concerned.
22:56So you haven't sat there and...
23:00I'm just trying to work that out.
23:01I mean...
23:04Ha, gotcha.
23:05You have got me.
23:06You have got me.
23:07I'm trying to work that through my head.
23:08Yeah, yeah, it took a while.
23:09It took a while.
23:10It did, it did, yeah.
23:11It took a while.
23:12You have voluntarily come into the studio
23:15and agreed to be questioned.
23:17A trans person in your class has come to your class
23:20and said they want to be called...
23:21That's never happened.
23:22And I would call them she.
23:24So you would.
23:24So you've kind of changed your tune on that.
23:26No.
23:26No, I said that right from the beginning.
23:28What I said at the beginning
23:29was that I was not going to cede
23:31the linguistic territory to radical leftists
23:35regardless of whether or not it was put in law.
23:37That's what I said.
23:38And then the people who came after me said,
23:40oh, you must be transphobic
23:42and you'd mistreat a student in your class.
23:44It's like, I never mistreated a student in my class.
23:46I'm not transphobic and that isn't what I said.
23:48Well, except you've also called trans campaigners
23:50authoritarian, haven't you?
23:52I mean, isn't that...
23:53Well, only in the broader context of my claims
23:55that radical leftist ideologues are authoritarian,
23:58which they are.
23:59You're saying someone who's trying to work out
24:01their gender identity,
24:02who may well have struggled with that,
24:03had quite a tough time over the years.
24:05No doubt they've struggled with it, yeah.
24:05You're comparing them with, you know,
24:08Chairman Mao who...
24:09No, just the activists.
24:10Saw the deaths of millions of people.
24:11Well, even if the activists, you know,
24:13they're trans people too.
24:14They have a right to say these things.
24:16Yeah, but they don't have a right
24:17to speak for their whole community.
24:19Isn't it grossly insensitive to compare them
24:19to Chairman Mao or, you know,
24:22Pinochet, Augusto Pinochet.
24:24I mean, you know, this is grossly insensitive.
24:26I didn't compare them to Pinochet.
24:27Well, he was an authoritarian.
24:30He's a right winger, though.
24:31I was comparing them
24:31to the left-wing totalitarians.
24:33And I do believe they are left-wing totalitarians.
24:36Under Mao, millions of people died.
24:38Right.
24:38I mean, there's no comparison
24:40between Mao and a trans activist, is there?
24:44Why not?
24:45Because trans activists
24:46aren't killing millions of people?
24:48The philosophy that's guiding their utterances
24:51is the same philosophy.
24:54The consequences are...
24:56Not yet.
24:57You're saying that trans activists...
25:00No.
25:00...could lead to the deaths
25:01of millions of people.
25:02No, I'm saying that the philosophy
25:03that drives their utterances
25:05is the same philosophy
25:06that already has driven us
25:07to the deaths of millions of people.
25:09Okay, tell us how that philosophy
25:11is in any way comparable.
25:13Sure, that's no problem.
25:15The first thing is,
25:15is that the philosophy presumes
25:17that group identity is paramount.
25:20That's the fundamental philosophy
25:21that drove the Soviet Union
25:22and Maoist China.
25:23And it's the fundamental philosophy
25:25of the left-wing activists.
25:26It's identity politics.
25:27It doesn't matter who you are
25:29as an individual.
25:29It matters who you are
25:30in terms of your group identity.
25:32You're just saying things, though,
25:34to provoke, aren't you?
25:35I mean, you are a provocateur.
25:36I never say anything.
25:36You're like the alt-right
25:37that you hate to be compared to.
25:39You want to stir things up.
25:40I'm only a provocateur
25:42insofar as when I say
25:44what I believe to be true,
25:46it's provocative.
25:46I don't provoke.
25:48Maybe for humor.
25:49You don't set out to provoke.
25:50Now and then.
25:50I'm not interested in provoking.
25:52But what about the thing about,
25:53you know, fighting and the lobster?
25:56Tell us about the lobster.
25:58Well, that's quite a segue.
26:00Well, the first chapter I have
26:01in my book is called
26:03Stand Up Straight
26:04With Your Shoulders Back.
26:05And it's an injunction
26:07to be combative.
26:10Not least to further your career,
26:12let's say.
26:12But also to adopt
26:15a stance of ready engagement
26:17with the world
26:18and to reflect that
26:19in your posture.
26:20And the reason that I
26:21write about lobsters
26:22is because there's this idea
26:24that hierarchical structures
26:26are a sociological construct
26:29of the Western patriarchy.
26:31And that is so untrue
26:33that it's almost unbelievable.
26:35And I use the lobster
26:36as an example
26:36because the lobster,
26:37we divulged from lobsters
26:40in evolutionary history
26:42about 350 million years ago,
26:44common ancestor.
26:45And lobsters exist in hierarchies.
26:47And they have a nervous system
26:48attuned to the hierarchy.
26:50And that nervous system
26:51runs on serotonin
26:52just like our nervous systems do.
26:54And the nervous system
26:55of the lobster
26:55and of the human being
26:56is so similar
26:57that antidepressants
26:58work on lobsters.
26:59And it's part of my attempt
27:01to demonstrate
27:01that the idea of hierarchy
27:03has absolutely nothing to do
27:05with sociocultural construction,
27:07which it doesn't.
27:08Let me just get this straight.
27:09You're saying that
27:09we should organize our societies
27:12along the lines of the lobsters.
27:14I'm saying that it's inevitable
27:16that there will be continuity
27:17in the way that animals
27:18and human beings
27:19organize their structures.
27:21It's absolutely inevitable.
27:23And there is one third
27:24of a billion years
27:25of evolutionary history
27:27behind that.
27:28That's so long
27:30that a third of a billion years ago
27:31there weren't even trees.
27:33It's a long time.
27:34You have a mechanism
27:35in your brain
27:36that runs on serotonin
27:37that's similar
27:38to the lobster mechanism
27:39that tracks your status.
27:41And the higher your status
27:42the better your emotions
27:44are regulated.
27:45So as your serotonin levels increase
27:47you feel more positive emotion
27:48and less negative emotion.
27:49So you're saying
27:50like the lobsters
27:51we're hardwired
27:52as men and women
27:53to do certain things
27:54to sort of run along tram lines
27:56and there's nothing
27:57we can do about it.
27:57No, I'm not saying
27:58there's nothing we can do about it
28:00because it's like
28:01in a chess game, right?
28:02There's lots of things
28:03that you can do
28:04although you can't
28:05break the rules
28:06of the chess game
28:07and continue to play chess
28:08and biological
28:09your biological nature
28:12is somewhat like that
28:13is it sets the rules
28:14of the game
28:14but within those rules
28:15you have a lot of leeway.
28:17But the idea that
28:18but one thing we can't do
28:20is say that
28:22hierarchical organization
28:23is a consequence
28:24of the capitalist patriarchy.
28:25It's like
28:26that's patently absurd.
28:27It's wrong.
28:29It's not a matter of opinion.
28:30It's seriously wrong.
28:32Aren't you just whipping people up
28:34into a state of anger
28:35and
28:36Not at all.
28:37Divisions between men and women
28:39you're stirring people up
28:40you know you have
28:40any critics of you
28:41online
28:42get absolutely lambasted
28:44by your followers.
28:46And by me generally.
28:47You've got to call them off, haven't you?
28:48Sorry, your critics
28:49get lambasted by you.
28:51I mean isn't that irresponsible?
28:53Not at all.
28:53If an academic
28:54is going to come after me
28:55and tell me that I'm not qualified
28:56and that I'm not
28:57I don't know what I'm talking about
28:58So you're not going to say to your followers now
29:01quit the abuse
29:02quit the anger.
29:03Well we'd need some
29:05substantial examples
29:06of the abuse
29:07and the anger
29:07before I could detail that question.
29:09There's a lot of it out there.
29:10Well let's take a more general
29:12perspective on that.
29:14So I've had
29:1525,000 letters
29:17since June
29:17something like that
29:18from people who told me
29:20that I've brought them back
29:21from the brink of destruction.
29:23And so I'm perfectly willing
29:24to put that up against
29:25the rather vague accusations
29:27that my followers
29:28are making
29:29the lives of people
29:31that I've targeted
29:31miserable.
29:32Jordan Peterson
29:33thank you.
29:34My pleasure
29:35nice talking with you.
29:49You
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