00:00But do you want me to come on to this chart? Because I think this is important.
00:02You can say something about this chart, yes?
00:04It's very yes-ministerish, because it absolutely depends on the question you ask.
00:08So if you say this, would you like to rejoin the EU? Yes, you get a majority.
00:13Just from asking that question? I mean, there's 33% of people who say no, we'll stay out of the
00:16EU.
00:16You get 52% who say yes, because people always hanker for what they haven't got.
00:21But if you ask, would you like to join the euro, and would you like your contributions to go up
00:27on the latest budget proposals coming from Brussels to ÂŁ36 billion a year?
00:33The answer's very different.
00:34When you say to people, do you want your trade rules made by a foreign country
00:38or international organisations, the answers are different.
00:41So yes, this is a headline figure, but it's not the full picture.
00:45And if we had a debate, where I agree with Alistair, it's unlikely that we will have the new referendum,
00:50I think this would all change during the course of the debate.
00:53Part of me is very perplexed that people like you from the Conservative Party,
00:58who essentially their ethos is to conserve institutions, to believe in representative government
01:03rather than the will of the people in this kind of format,
01:06that you ever thought that a referendum was the right way to make a big decision like this?
01:12There's something almost revolutionary about it.
01:14No, there isn't.
01:15Dicey sets out why he thinks the referendum should be the preferred way of making constitutional change
01:20after the 1911 Parliament Act.
01:22So you wouldn't object to another one, then?
01:24I think referendum is the right way to make serious constitutional changes
01:29when you have a de facto unicameral system...
01:32So how long does the mandate for the 2016 one last?
01:35That's a good question.
01:36It's the same as the Scottish referendum.
01:39It's a generation, is what has been said about Scotland.
01:42It's as the last one was.
01:44The last one was a decision for the best part of 50 years.
01:48There's got to be a clear desire for it.
01:50Now, I think that desire will grow.
01:52But at the same time, what I've realised since being half in, half out of politics,
01:58unless within the political parliamentary system itself there is real pressure for something,
02:03it's less likely to happen.
02:04And that's why I have been disappointed that Labour and the Lib Dems have basically kind of given up.
02:10They've given up almost in calling out the damage that's being done,
02:13which is why his side are allowed to sort of parrot the nonsense that they do.
02:18I disagree with the second half of that, but I don't disagree with the first half.
02:20I think there isn't an appetite to revisit this.
02:24But I'm also not sure that the EU will exist in 20 years' time.
02:27It's got major financial problems.
02:28It's trying to increase its budget.
02:31It's got strains within it economically.
02:33And it's got strains within it culturally in relation to mass migration.
02:36And it's got strains within it culturally in relation to mass migration.
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