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12:02expect to pay more if Europe fully embraces the circular economy model?
12:08That is what we see today.
12:09As I said, the secondary materials are today more expensive.
12:13And that is why we need to get the answers on how to make the business case for secondary materials.
12:20And that is what we will try to address in the Circular Economy Act.
12:23Because people or industries, business to business, are neither interested today to do that extra payment.
12:31Of course, we have a lot of extra costs for energy and so forth.
12:35So we need to find that business case.
12:36And I think it's possible because virgin materials is also scarce and weaponized sometimes.
12:42So, of course, there should be a business case in this.
12:45You mentioned earlier climate change and the impact on the environment is increasingly seen as a security issue in the
12:54political discourse.
12:57Should environmental policy now be considered as part of Europe's defense strategy?
13:04Yes, I think so.
13:06I can explain.
13:07Please do.
13:09Because I see that because there is a lot of examples back to water, which is not only a resource
13:16like anyone else.
13:17We need water for our daily life.
13:19We need it for energy production.
13:20We need it for food production.
13:22And when water gets scars, we are in trouble.
13:25And that eventually is also a security threat to us, not only food production, but also on the global perspective.
13:31We know that water is also driving conflicts and so forth.
13:34So that is one part of the defense angle and security angle.
13:38We also see nature as a natural border.
13:42We see it in Poland and Finland how you can turn wetlands into border controls, make it more difficult.
13:51So, I mean, this is for an invasion to pass.
13:54So, there is two signs of that.
13:56But I would argue the main thing is that biodiversity loss, crop loss, floods and droughts, is a security threat.
14:06And that's not only, again, not only me who's saying that.
14:09But I very often now recently refer to the UK MI6 report that came out earlier this year saying that
14:16natural degradation is the main threat for UK's national security, which, of course, affects is the same for a lot
14:24of other countries.
14:25Yeah, I'm still struggling to make sense of, you know, we have people who are struggling with the cost of
14:34living on the one hand.
14:36And then we have environmental protection that remains a priority.
14:43How do we get people to sort of on board and embrace this?
14:48I mean, if you if I may go back to the first question you asked, this was that 80 percent
14:53of the people in Europe are putting hazardous chemicals as a top priority.
15:00That is the answer on the question.
15:02We we want clean water.
15:04We want clean air.
15:05We need healthy soils.
15:09And that is one reason I think we need.
15:11And I'm not sure that it always has to cost more money.
15:14It's more doing things more efficiently, using new techniques, using AI, using digitalization.
15:20I think that is one part.
15:21The other part is that we today again see the dependencies cost.
15:26And that is something that me as a consumer at the end of the day is paying the price for.
15:31So we need to treat our environment.
15:34We need to get in a more sustainable way because that is the future proof.
15:39So, of course, we can discuss and we can put plaster of things at the moment, but that will only
15:43postpone the cost.
15:46The cost of doing nothing to prevent from flooding, to prevent from droughts or wildfires, that is costly.
15:54And it will, at the end of the day, cost me as a consumer money.
15:57Here's a tricky one.
15:59Which environmental target is Europe likely to miss?
16:07We are, I mean, we have, we are getting, we are doing better when it comes to air pollution, for
16:12example,
16:12and less people are premature death in that, which is a good thing.
16:16But still, we are not reaching the targets.
16:19Water quality.
16:20We have a target in the Water Framework Directive into 2027.
16:24Probably we are not going to reach that.
16:27Healthy soils.
16:2880% of our soils are not in a good shape.
16:30So, that is the brutal truth, which means that it's even more saying, confirming what I say,
16:40we need to start investing in nature and seeing this as an economic asset.
16:46And a risk, the risk is to do nothing.
16:49That is what we are facing.
16:51If you meet your non-European colleagues, do you have the impression that everybody is on the same wavelength here?
17:00Not everyone, of course, because it's, we are a lot of states around the world.
17:05But I feel, and it's, of course, we know that multilateralism and cooperation getting harder and harder now,
17:12due to a lot of reasons.
17:14But I feel that there is this ask for Europe to stand firm and stand in the front line because
17:22I also meet a lot of states around the world that is heavily affected from climate change or nature or
17:28plastic pollution.
17:29And there is a lot of cooperation around that.
17:33So, I feel that there is also a lot of willingness to move forward in the multilateralism.
17:39And how problematic is it for you that the United States have basically left the global climate endeavors?
17:49So, U.S. is and will always be important partners for Europe and our countries.
17:55So, when I talk about, I've been to G7, G20, discussing desertification on the desertification cup coming up, or plastic
18:04pollution,
18:05of course, we have differences.
18:06But also, seeing the benefit of cooperation is also there.
18:13So, I'm trying to move forward because the water issue, the broken water cycle, that is not one member state.
18:21That is something that we need to work together on.
18:24So, I'm trying to move forward on things that we can cooperate.
18:29Critical raw materials, for example.
18:30We just recently did an agreement with the U.S. on that.
18:34So, that's a little bit how I try to work.
18:38But with that said, of course, the multilateralist, the global cooperation, is difficult today.
18:43If your term ended tomorrow, what would be your biggest failure?
18:50Oh, I usually get the question, what do you want to achieve?
18:56Well, if we have not moved the needle, actually reset the clock in one way when it comes to circularity,
19:04because the dependency, as we see today, is really, it is here for us.
19:10So, we need to do something more on circularity, and it's linked to environment than water, actually.
19:14So, I hope that we can.
19:16So, I did not answer your question then.
19:18I don't want to, I mean, I hope that this will be a successful mandate,
19:21and that we take, see, connect the dots, that it cannot be seen as environmental in one silo.
19:29This has to be horizontal.
19:30Okay, now I have to ask you what you consider your biggest achievement.
19:33Oh, then it will be that if I can help to bring different sectors on board on the investment part,
19:43on the nature, that will be my biggest achievement.
19:46All right.
19:46Jessica Roswell, thank you very much.
19:48EU Commissioner for the Environment and many other things.
19:52Thanks for a very interesting conversation.
19:54Thank you very much for having me.
19:55Thank you very much.
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