00:00Drake, you heard Jordan talking about looking through these documents, trying to humanize
00:03these stories. Makes me wonder about what would motivate someone like her. What do we know of
00:08the motivations here? That's one thing that was striking to Jordan and me in the course of our
00:13reporting about incidents like this. The sums of money are often not particularly large. There's
00:19a lot of ways to put pressure on someone that the Chinese government can bring to bear. I mean,
00:23it is basically, you know, illegal in China to not help out the Chinese intelligence services when
00:29they come calling. So basically, that allows them to, you know, even if someone is here in the US,
00:35they often have family back in China, they have friends back in China. And it's totally
00:40commonplace for someone from the government to show up at the house of one of your relatives and
00:45sort of strongly suggest that you should be more cooperative with them if you show any reluctance.
00:51So there's a real kind of social, societal and sort of the state itself can lean on you in ways
00:58that are not just, you know, carrot as well as, I mean, stick as well as carrot.
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