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More money for the military - to do what? MEPs clash over Europe's defense spending on The Ring
Is higher defense spending in Europe a strategic investment or a random act to please Donald Trump? That's this week's topic of The Ring featuring MEPs Marc Botenga and Lukas Mandl as opponents.
READ MORE : http://www.euronews.com/2026/05/20/more-money-for-the-military-to-do-what-meps-clash-over-europes-defense-spending-on-the-rin
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Is higher defense spending in Europe a strategic investment or a random act to please Donald Trump? That's this week's topic of The Ring featuring MEPs Marc Botenga and Lukas Mandl as opponents.
READ MORE : http://www.euronews.com/2026/05/20/more-money-for-the-military-to-do-what-meps-clash-over-europes-defense-spending-on-the-rin
Subscribe to our channel. Euronews is available on Dailymotion in 12 languages
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00:08Hello and welcome to The Ring, Euronews' weekly debate show broadcasting from the European
00:14Parliament in Strasbourg. Today, I'm Stefan Grobe. On The Ring, members of the European
00:19Parliament go face-to-face on some of the biggest issues facing Europe. Today, we're
00:25going to talk about European defence efforts in a fast-changing geopolitical environment.
00:31Luis Alberto has more. Wars in Ukraine and Iran, economic insecurity
00:37and questions about the future of NATO. Europe finds itself at a moment of profound uncertainty.
00:45That sense of vulnerability has triggered a historic shift in European defence policy.
00:49Countries that for decades reduced military budgets are now dramatically increasing defence
00:54spending. Europe is also trying to redefine its alliance. And many European leaders argue
01:00that Europe must become more strategically autonomous. At the same time, Europe fears being sidelined
01:06if the world increasingly becomes shaped by deals between the United States, China and Russia.
01:12Can Europe successfully navigate this turbulent period? Can it emerge as truly independent
01:17global power? A lot to unpack here for our contenders. And here they are.
01:27Lukas Mandl, an Austrian MEP from the Central-Right European People's Party. He's a member of the
01:33Committees on Development, Legal Affairs and Civil Liberties, Justice and Home Affairs at the European
01:38Parliament. Regarding the EU's priorities at a time of growing global uncertainty and geopolitical turmoil,
01:43he said, it's the economy, stupid. Let's put first things first.
01:49Mark Potenga, a Belgian MEP from the Left Group. He's a member of the Committees on Foreign Affairs and Security
01:55and Defence at the European Parliament. He has criticised the EU's position on the global stage,
01:59arguing that the double standards of this Europe are not only a disgrace, they also allow the creation of a
02:05world
02:05of chaos and war. So be ashamed, because today, this Europe is not a force for good, but an accomplice
02:11to crime.
02:15So let me welcome to the Ring, Lukas Mandl and Mark Potenga.
02:19Good to see you. Great to have you here.
02:22The aim of the Ring is to offer our viewers a glimpse at European Parliament debates, so you should feel
02:29right at home.
02:30Are you ready? You're ready. Thanks for having me. Good. I want to start with something provocative,
02:37Mark Potenga. Will more money, more defence money actually make Europe safer or are governments confusing
02:44spending with strategy? Oh, I think definitely we don't have a strategy right now. So I think that's
02:50very impressive. Like we put in a lot of money, right? Hundreds and hundreds of billions going to the
02:54defence sector, very often with little conditions, first of all. So we also see that at the same time you
02:59have
02:59these multinational companies that are now sending a lot more money to their shareholders. But I'm like,
03:04are we just sponsoring basically not just their profits, but even their dividends, their share buybacks?
03:09So that is one question. But secondly, what are our priorities? We see that people are buying,
03:15you know, armoured vehicles to be used in the west of Africa. We're seeing the F-35 fighter jets being
03:21bought by member states. And I'm like, what is this for? This is not for our defence. This is, if
03:27we,
03:27with all of the money and all the material we have, you know, which is much more than what Russia
03:31has,
03:31you know, we have many times more tanks, many times more fighter jets, many times more battleships than
03:36Russia has. We see Russia struggling, you know, they were unable to even organise the parade in Moscow.
03:42Why are we not able to defend ourselves with the money we're already spending?
03:45Yeah, let me take that question right to Lukas Mandel. Defence strategy or not?
03:50Oh, it's like everybody needs an insurance. If you're driving a car or doing whatever, you need
03:55insurance and spending money for defence is an insurance for our security in the first place. And
04:01secondly, it's also for the very cause of Europe's prosperity, because the more we can innovate and
04:07produce on European soil, the better for jobs, for growth and for Europe's economic future.
04:13On this point, connecting Europe stronger, I mean, it's not like Europe doesn't have
04:19armies, it doesn't have had armies or defence spending before. Isn't the problem really
04:25inefficiency and fragmentation in Europe when we talk about military?
04:29Well, I remember the European Commission, the previous one, the one of Jean-Claude Juncker,
04:33you know, saying if we work together better at European level, we can save 100 billion,
04:38up to 100 billion euros on defence spending. I'm like, that's that's marvellous. Let's do that.
04:44Right. And now you see, no, we work together better, but we also need to spend hundreds of billions
04:49more while we're already outspending vast amount of countries in the world. Most countries in the
04:55world spend a lot less than European countries do. We need to really, really be aware of that.
05:00So there is no underfunding? Oh, there's absolutely no underfunding.
05:03There might be a very bad use of some of the funds. This is something else. We've seen it at
05:07European
05:07level as well. You know, until very recently drones were not a priority, not a top priority of the
05:12European defence spending. Then suddenly became everything. You know, drones were everything we
05:18needed, the Alpha, the Omega. And now we're again, yeah, maybe it's not drones that are the main priority.
05:23So this is what I was saying. There's no real strategy, but there is an idea of saying Europe, you
05:27know,
05:27should be a main player globally. This is not about defence. This is about Europe being able
05:33to project power in the rest of the world, you know, in Africa, in the Middle East, not defence,
05:38attack. Do you agree? We have big underfunding. We have had it for many decades in Europe.
05:46We have to invest in drones. I really, I really want to address these conspiracy theories that are
05:51there as if it would not be for our defence, but for a different cause. It's for our defence.
05:55Europe is the very entity on this planet that's planning military matters in the very field of
06:02defence, not in the field of attack. And drones are obviously what's really needed in today's
06:07warfare. And if we are well equipped in the field of drones, if we have innovation also in the drones
06:13field and also production on European soil for jobs and prosperity, then we have a smaller probability
06:19that we will be attacked because we will be more secure if we are able to defend ourselves. And this
06:25is
06:25the whole philosophy of defence. So our security is at stake. And I think conspiracy theories are
06:31rather harming our European unity and our European defence capability.
06:36First of all, I don't think the massive increase is justified. Let's say this first. Secondly, I think
06:41it actually will weaken Europe on the long term as well, because contrary to what you're saying,
06:45it is not a good idea for our industry. You know, we have you speak about jobs. Basically,
06:50the defence industry yields less jobs for money invested than other sectors do. You will not save
06:56the steel industry of militarisation, you know, producing 1000 tanks. It's about three days of
07:01production of a steel factory. So you can see that you're actually weakening. Also, there's a negative
07:06multiplier effect that might be applied to other to other industries. So you're weakening structurally the
07:12industrial base of Europe by saying we put more defence, but we will lose other sectors. Look at
07:16the automobile sector. And secondly, indeed, what is the threat that justifies, you know, this massive...
07:22Why, for example, if I hear the German Chancellor, right, saying, I want to have the biggest army in
07:28Europe. Why do you want the biggest army in Europe? Is that your threat assessment? That the problem is,
07:33you don't have the biggest army in Europe. We need to be very clear. There are threats, you know,
07:37and one of the threats is the arms race. One of the threats is nuclear war. Let's be very clear.
07:41This is very clear. How do you deal with that? During the Cold War, we knew disarmament,
07:49transparency, limitations on arms control systems, all of these things we knew during the Cold War,
07:54with the Soviet Union that was vastly more powerful and vastly more ideological than Putin or Putin's
08:00Russia will ever be. Okay. Do you hear this? In the Cold War, freedom won against dictatorship.
08:05And this was, of course, due to deterrence. And deterrence is what is needed. Deterrence will
08:11also save us. And deterrence is only possible if we can take care of ourselves. And the security
08:17sector and industries is not isolated from other sectors. We have to understand Europe. And I really
08:22care for Europe's prosperity, for jobs on our continent and for the future of the generations ahead.
08:28Europe became a continent of consumption. We have been consuming over decades innovation
08:32from America, production from China and other parts of Asia, also innovation from China in the
08:39meantime. So we need innovation on European soil. We also need production on European soil. And when
08:44you talk about the automotive sector, there are not many sectors as much connected to the security
08:49sector as this one. So security and economy has to be taken serious. That's why I'm also saying,
08:56let's put first things first. This must be the priority. But I guess the threat assessment is
09:02different in the Baltics and in Portugal, right? So I'm coming back to Putin here. Shall we take him
09:08seriously? Shall we fear him? Is this whole buildup a response to Russian assertiveness and aggression?
09:16I think we invoke the Russian aggression in Ukraine to justify programs that existed before. Let's not
09:22forget that, for example, the European defense fund was started before the current war in Ukraine.
09:27So there is, of course, you know, I mean, the defense fund was so important for
09:30for Europe to be started ahead of the Russian attack. But the quantity is so important. The
09:36connection is so important. When we see that, I mean, let me get back. First of all,
09:42with these things, we're putting a lot of money, extra money, you know, by saying Russia is going.
09:47There's this very there's a contradiction in European mainstream discourse, which is saying at the
09:52same time that Russia is extremely weak, is losing in Ukraine, and we might be able to free Ukraine
09:57from Russian occupation militarily. And then you have these these these images of the Red Square in
10:02Moscow where there's no parade. And on the other hand, the fact that Putin would be able to conquer
10:07the whole of Europe. You know, these are two things that are obviously incompatible right now at the
10:11same moment. But we don't want to find out. What we don't want to find out is right now what,
10:16for example, a desperate Russia would do, right? Could it be more desperate than it already is?
10:21Sorry? I mean, do you see any reliability or predictability in Putin's regime? There is
10:28already total desperation. So we have to be able to defend ourselves. I agree with the commission's
10:33president who has stated we have to keep our hand reached out to the other Russia. I'm absolutely
10:39aware of that, that after Putin's regime, we have to give Russia the chance to become
10:45a democratic rule of law. We need to have diplomacy right now. We need to do diplomacy right now. And
10:50this is the disaster, the disaster of this European Union. We have forgotten what diplomacy is. Talk to
10:57other people. And diplomacy doesn't mean going having a drink with a friend. Diplomacy is talking to the
11:03opponent, to the adversary, to the enemy. This is to de-escalate and to limit conflict. And most countries in
11:09the world have tried this and the European Union has refused. Now I see Angela Merkel, you know,
11:14who got the order of merits. I see Alexander Stobsting. We need to do that. Right. A lot of
11:18names floating around. We come back to this later, but I want to stop you here as we're just getting
11:23warmed up, as you can see.
11:29Now it's time for our viewers to get a real flavor of the European Parliament chamber, where members
11:34ask each other questions. And sometimes it can get heated. So let's get started. Lukas Madl,
11:41I'm going to ask you to ask the first question to Mark. Well, Mark Potenga, as a colleague in the
11:47European Parliament, how can we make sure that we establish more freedom for the Europeans to the
11:53inside and more strength to the outside? This is the overall issue of our time. I would say
11:57Europe needs more strength for its civilization, for its reliability, the diplomatic approach that you
12:03obviously do not see from the European side, while Europe is the strongest diplomatic power,
12:09given the geopolitical situation today. So how can we create more strength to the outside and how can we
12:14establish more freedom to the inside for our citizens? I think that's a very interesting question
12:18coming from the center-right, who's governing in many governments in Europe and who is basically
12:23limiting the right to protest, who's limiting the right to strike, who's limiting basically
12:29fundamental freedoms of Europeans. And so I would say, first thing, please tell the governments of
12:35your political group, of your political party to stop limiting the fundamental freedoms of Europeans.
12:41And secondly, towards the outside, I need, we need, I think, to rebuild European credibility.
12:48And how do we do that? We do that by stopping the double standards, by no longer saying international
12:53law is important for us in Ukraine, but in Palestine we don't care. International law is important when
13:00Russia or Putin violates it, but we don't care when Trump violates international law. Because if you have
13:05these double standards, never ever will other countries take you seriously. And never ever will you be a
13:12decent player on the international scale. Okay. On this, I think you want to follow up.
13:17I mean, there's so much to be said. I think it was now the fourth or fifth conspiracy theory from
13:23Mr. Potenga in today's talk about freedom being limited in Europe. There is no part on this planet,
13:29no continent, no country where freedom is so much established and so much defended and strong as it is
13:34in Europe. Obviously, also that we have this debate today, also that extremists have all democratic
13:42rights in parliaments in Europe, including the very European parliament. All of this is about freedom.
13:47And then mixing things up doesn't make it better. Of course, when international law is violated,
13:53Europe is the strongest voice speaking about that. Europe stood strong against Trump's attempt,
13:58for example, when it comes to Greenland. And we succeeded in that area. Europe stood strong when
14:03it was not clear whether the terrorists will go that way or the other way from Trump's side.
14:09He put us in a limbo again, but we didn't follow this pathway of a limbo. We didn't enter this
14:14political battlefield of Trump. We stood strong and we managed to succeed more when it comes to the
14:21geopolitical tensions given than other parts of the world. But of course, we need more strength to
14:26the outside, especially in that field you are doubting in the field of our own security and being able to
14:32take care of it. Marc Maggiac, you want to react? And then your question to Lucas Mandel.
14:36Well, I think it's interesting because very often the EPP and central parties, when they don't have
14:41an answer, they say this is a conspiracy theory. What we see in many countries, like in Germany now,
14:45there's a debate even on saying we can't use the watermelon anymore as a political symbol because it
14:50would be anti-Semitic. This is, you know, what we are seeing. We're seeing this also with action against
14:55trade unions in different countries. So we see that there's a democratic backsliding, which human rights
14:59organizations are pointing out in Europe. You know, it's not some kind of left conspiracy to say
15:04that. But you don't want to see it because it's your governments doing it. Secondly, what I indeed
15:09want to ask now, and I think that that's a thing. You say that Europe stands up for international law
15:17and you quote Greenland. Europe didn't stand up for international law in Greenland. It stood up for its own
15:23territorial integrity. That is something very different because when we had to stand up for international
15:29law, the illegal war on Iran, you supported it yourself. When it is about denouncing the illegal occupation of
15:36Lebanon by Israel, you support it. When the International Court of Justice says that we should sanction Israel as
15:42third parties, we have responsibility, you refuse it. So basically, when, you know, the Venezuelan president,
15:48whatever we think of him, is kidnapped illegally. And the world globally condemns this, saying this is
15:54just absolutely not how we deal with, how would I say, with international relations. And this is a violation
15:59of the UN Charter. You support it. So this is the issue. These double standards, it's not Europe that has
16:05double standards. You know, it is you. It is the governing coalition of Europe that has these double
16:09standards. Look, who is dealing with international law, who is in the lead of preserving it and observing it
16:17as the United Nations. We had yesterday night in the European Parliament's plenary debate on the
16:21United Nations necessary reform. United Nations have to be reformed for obvious reasons. And if you are
16:29telling now that the war on the Iranian regime was wrong, I say, yeah, it was amateurishly done by the
16:37United
16:37States while the decapitation of the Mueller regime's leaders worked very well. But the war obviously
16:45was wrong because it didn't work out well. The Mueller regime is still in place. I have been
16:49sanctioned myself by the Mueller regime since 2023. So I know what I'm talking about when I say women are
16:55suppressed in Iran. Iran is threatening the whole world, not only the region. And of course, to threaten
17:02our only partner country in the region, the only democracy, the only rule of law based state in the
17:07region, Israel, is part of the conspiracy theories of your political side. And this is a sign of freedom in
17:13Europe that you can speak freely about that, even if it's a very much in minority being opinion. But
17:22you're allowed to say that. And there's there's no many parts on Earth where you can do that. And
17:27last point on Greenland. I mean, when international law is violated, it doesn't matter whether it's
17:31Europe's interest or the arts interest. We care for international law. We even want to
17:34save international law during these geopolitical times of tensions. And that means that we have to
17:41reform the United Nations. OK, thank you for a great debate so far. We've heard your views.
17:47Now it's time to hear from a new voice.
17:54And for our quote of the week, I would like to bring in Italian Prime Minister Georgia Meloni
17:59in a letter addressed to Commission President Ursula von der Leyen. She said this.
18:04We cannot justify to our citizens that the EU allows financial flexibility to be used for security
18:11and defense purposes in the strictest sense, but not to protect families, workers and enterprises from
18:18a new energy crisis that threatens to severely impact the real economy. Your take on this, Mark?
18:27Well, two things. First, she's walked back to her statement. Secondly, it's terribly hypocritical,
18:32because the fact that we now have again these horrible austerity rules was approved by her
18:38government. So first, this is fantastic. First, the far right approves this or the center right,
18:43whatever you want to call her, approves these rules. And then they say, it's not fair. So this is,
18:48you know, pure populism. But what is true is that Europe today says there's no money for your
18:55hospitals, for your pensions, for your schools. But miraculously, we find hundreds of billions
19:00for the defense multinationals. You know, this contradiction is real. And so indeed, we do not
19:05need these austerity rules anymore. And once again, they've been imposed by the mainstream parties,
19:10including Georgia Meloni's. Okay, Lucas Mandel, your reaction? Yeah, this is part of the extremist
19:15populist approach. I think also the consumers, viewers of this program should see that there is no
19:20contradiction between producing something on European soil instead from buying it from outside
19:26and having hospitals and schools and streets, because the one thing is connected with the other.
19:32If we have strong prosperity, if we have growth, finally, in Europe, again, we will also be able
19:37to afford the social welfare states. We have established generations before us have established
19:41in Europe, and we will have schools and roads. All right, we're going to continue the conversation,
19:45but now I'll have to take a break here on The Ring. We'll be back with more after this. Stay
19:51with us.
19:59Welcome back to The Ring, Euronews' weekly debate show. I'm Stefan Gorbe and I'm joined by Lucas Mandel
20:06from the European People's Party from Austria and Marc Bottenga from the Left Group from Belgium.
20:12At this point, let's take a look at the transatlantic partnership regarding defense. Trump wants to
20:18weaken the NATO alliance and seems increasingly noncommittal to common defense. But the military
20:23business is showing a different picture. So here are some numbers from the Stockholm International
20:29Peace Research Institute. According to that institute, 64% of European NATO weapons imports come
20:36from the United States. And European arms imports rose by more than 150% between 2020 and 24 compared to
20:45the previous period. U.S. arms exports to Europe increased by more than 200% in the same period. So
20:53Europe is now the world's largest arms important region. Lukas Mandel, hearing these numbers, your comments.
21:02I mean, we had a time of many good beginnings since the beginning of Putin-Russia's war. But spending is
21:08not everything. I've emphasized that before. It's about where to spend. It's about the connection
21:14between the armed forces of the member states and also the understanding of the various different
21:19threats. Now we see the situation that the United States are obviously willing to reduce their number
21:26of troops on European soil. I think that's not only a development due to the given current U.S.
21:33administration under Trump. It was generally something that had to be expected over decades.
21:38And a mature Europe will anyway be able to take care of itself. But I do not want to have
21:43confrontation in other parts of the world. I want cooperation, but on the basis of European strength.
21:47Okay. How can we be strategically independent by buying American weapons?
21:52Oh, we cannot. Let's be very clear. If you buy, for example, I mentioned the F-35 fighters as before.
21:58Making a little bit of a cartoon out of it, you could say that with one push of the button,
22:03Trump can deactivate them. So if it were to, I don't know, defend Greenland, they would be completely
22:07useless. We do need to think how you create this autonomy. This you can do in different ways.
22:14One of the ways I would suggest is to say we need to diversify partnerships. So this idea of we
22:20need
22:20to, we are locking ourselves up in this kind of submissive attitude towards Trump. We've seen
22:26it as well with the trade deal at the EU-US trade deal, where we accept to give tariff-free
22:32access
22:32to the European market for many, many goods from the U.S., but ourselves, you know, we see that we
22:37impose. What do you mean by diversifying? Is it buying from Brazil or India? Yeah, for example. I mean,
22:42you have your own industry, obviously, you know. You produce what you want to produce. In the first place,
22:45we have to produce ourselves. But secondly, no, no, but we produce ourselves. That's not, I mean,
22:51because you said before that we do not produce anymore. First of all, this deindustrialization,
22:56which is true and which is real, is not a gift from God. This is a consequence of policies that
23:04have
23:04been waged on this continent by your group. So let's not pretend this comes from nowhere. Workers throughout
23:10Europe have seen their jobs disappear in industry because of the policies, the market-driven policies
23:16your group has imposed on this continent. I agree with the point that Europe has its own
23:20responsibility here, but it clearly came from ideological left sources that we had these policies.
23:25But you were the one governing it. This was a market approach. How can you say the left is
23:30responsible for it? But this makes no sense. Listen, I'm ready to have a debate of ideas.
23:37I'm ready to have a debate of ideas. But you cannot say that it has been the left pushing for
23:43liberalization, that it has been the left pushing for privatization, for the sellout of our industries.
23:50This is just not true. This is center-right. But this makes no sense. I mean,
23:55let's have an honest debate on ideas. Let's have an honest debate on ideas. It's been the center-right,
24:03sometimes with social democrats in the coalition that has sold off our industries and that has
24:08privatized, liberalized our markets. And this would create, I don't know what kind of Eldorado.
24:13The reality today is what? Deindustrialization and a lot of issues for European industry.
24:20You have refused to invest sufficiently in public energy infrastructure. And today our industries
24:26are being chased away by the fact that the energy prices are too high. And still today you're
24:31sabotaging the cheapest energy that would be green energy, keeping us dependent on fossil fuels from
24:36I don't know what countries. All right. We'll come back to this. And now it's the time to move on
24:41to our
24:41fifth and final round. And we want to do something different now. I'm going to ask you a set of
24:50questions and you can only answer with a yes or no. Okay. Lukas, I'll start with you. Should there be
24:57a
24:57common European army? On the long run, yes. No, not now. No. Okay. Can Europe realistically build credible
25:06military autonomy without duplicating NATO structures? It's a long debate. I just want to say,
25:13yes, if that's the question, yes, we can. I think we should work on a common security architecture
25:18in Europe. Okay. No, we can't. We have to do it within NATO. We have to reform NATO such as
25:25UN also.
25:26And of course it will be within NATO because to have redundancies is the worst thing we can do with
25:32taxpayers' money and also with our security. Okay. Will NATO outlive Donald Trump?
25:39Absolutely. I hope not. You hope not? Yes. I mean, I think NATO today, you know,
25:44NATO is something that comes from the Cold War that had a sense at the time, the warshow pact against
25:50NATO. Today, we need a common European security architecture. NATO is something from the past and
25:55Donald Trump is the living illustration of this. Interesting. And finally, was there anything over
26:01the last half hour that you think your opponent said that you can agree with?
26:09I can't say that. Only maybe that European economic trouble is also based on our own European
26:16responsibility from the past. But I wouldn't direct that to the very center of politics. It was the
26:23extremists who were stronger over decades. Now we have better maturities in European Parliament. Now we
26:27lift burden from our businesses. So maybe we agree on that. And I'm very happy to be European,
26:34seeing that somebody from the far extremists, in that case, to the left, there are also ones to the
26:39right, are allowed to speak freely. And there are not many parts of the world where this is possible.
26:44Any agreements with Lucas Martin? Well, definitely not with this part. I mean, the far right has never
26:48been stronger in this parliament than you say that normal parties are stronger. That's very weird.
26:52One point I think I agree on is the fact that the issue with, let's say, defense and security is
26:59not
27:00a matter of more money. It's a matter of more cooperation, you know. And this, I think he said,
27:05but this kind of contradicts the position of saying we need more money for defense. But I agree on this
27:10part. We need more cooperation and more coordination. Wonderful. And that final answer brings us to the
27:16end of this edition of The Ring. Thanks again to Mark Buttenga and Lukas Mandl for a lively conversation
27:22here from the European Parliament. Thanks to our audience at home. If you like, you can continue
27:26the conversation by sending us your comments to theringateuronews.com. We'd love to have your
27:33feedback. That's it for today. I'm Stefan Grobe. Take care and see you soon on Euronews.
27:47Euronews.
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