- 12 hours ago
A case that people thought was closed – the Murdaugh murders case in South Carolina – was turned on its head this week. A judge overturned the convictions of Richard Alexander Murdaugh, known as Alex Murdaugh, for allegedly killing his wife and son, and ordered a new trial. While the Murdugh case made plenty of headlines this week, you may have missed an update to another high-profile case, the 2024 Kansas City Super Bowl parade shooting. This week, two men convicted of the shooting went free. Those are just some of the cases we'll cover in this episode.
Featuring audio from 1010 WINS in New York, NYW Newsradio in Philadelphia, KRLD 1080 in Dallas, The Dana & Parks Show out of KMBZ in Kansas City, The Tara Show out of 98.9 WORD in Greenville, South Carolina, KCBS Radio out of the Bay Area, WBEN News & Talk in Buffalo and WCCO News Talk in the Twin Cities.
Featuring audio from 1010 WINS in New York, NYW Newsradio in Philadelphia, KRLD 1080 in Dallas, The Dana & Parks Show out of KMBZ in Kansas City, The Tara Show out of 98.9 WORD in Greenville, South Carolina, KCBS Radio out of the Bay Area, WBEN News & Talk in Buffalo and WCCO News Talk in the Twin Cities.
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NewsTranscript
00:04I'm Suzy Welch, the host of Becoming You, a podcast where I help you stop living by
00:10default and start living by design.
00:13Listen to Becoming You wherever you get your podcasts.
00:21This is a true crime roundup from the On Deadline podcast.
00:24Each week, we dive into crime stories reported by Odyssey's radio newsrooms across the nation.
00:31I'm your host, Lauren Berry.
00:34A case that people thought was closed, the Murdaugh murders case in South Carolina,
00:39was turned on its head this week.
00:42A judge overturned the convictions of Richard Alexander Murdaugh, known as Alex Murdaugh,
00:48for allegedly killing his wife and son.
00:50The judge also ordered a new trial.
00:53Murdaugh, an attorney himself, was from a prominent legal family in South Carolina.
01:00The case has attracted significant media attention, from podcasts and books to a Hulu series.
01:07In this roundup, we'll hear some reactions to the latest news.
01:11And we'll get some background on the Murdaugh case,
01:14including why that judge decided to overturn Alex Murdaugh's convictions.
01:19While the Murdaugh case has made plenty of headlines this week,
01:23you may have missed an update to another high-profile case,
01:27the 2024 Kansas City Super Bowl parade shooting.
01:32Two men convicted of the shooting recently went free.
01:36That's another story that we'll hear about in this roundup,
01:39as well as the latest development in the Tanner Horner case out of Texas.
01:44Later, we'll hear about a mass shooting that has been linked to artificial intelligence,
01:49ongoing efforts in Buffalo, New York, to heal from the 2022 Topps supermarket mass shooting,
01:56and a new program in Minnesota aimed at reducing fatal shootings.
02:02First, we have some quick crime report roundups from around the country,
02:06starting with two crimes covered by Odyssey Station 1010 Winds in New York City.
02:12A strap hanger is fighting for his life at this hour after he was stabbed at an East Harlem subway
02:18station.
02:19Cops say the stabbing happened at about 1.15 p.m. on the downtown 6 train platform at the 125th
02:26Street station.
02:26The victim is said to be critical.
02:29Police say two attackers fled the scene.
02:31So far, there have been no arrests.
02:37Charges have been upgraded against a Queens man accused of setting a fire that killed four people,
02:43including a three-year-old girl.
02:45Queens District Attorney Melinda Katz says Roman Amatilla now faces first-degree murder charges
02:51in addition to second-degree murder and arson, a total of 37 counts.
02:57Katz says he set the fire at the base of the only stairwell exit from the upper floors of a
03:02flushing building.
03:03The sequence of events show someone who was angry and, you know, went to that building
03:11and then came back to start the fire, knowing that, you know, our allegations is that he knew
03:17that in the staircase, no one could get out.
03:20In addition to the four people killed, seven others were injured, including two firefighters.
03:25The upgraded charges mean Amatilla could be sentenced to life behind bars if convicted.
03:33Odyssey station KYW Newsradio in Philadelphia also covered multiple crimes this week,
03:41including this road rage incident that spiraled into violence.
03:45A Philadelphia man under arrest accused of shooting at a driver in what police are calling
03:50a road rage incident in Bethlehem.
03:53Jamie Alexander Paramo Zamudio, taken into custody yesterday, charged with aggravated homicide and aggravated assault.
04:03It was early yesterday morning when authorities say he fired a handgun through a woman's windshield
04:09while he was stopped at a red light at the intersection of Linden Street and Johnston Drive.
04:15The woman wasn't hit, but suffered minor injuries from the shattered glass.
04:20Police say the bullet also missed her 15-year-old son, who was sitting in the passenger seat.
04:26It's not clear what led up to the shooting.
04:28Police say they identified Ramo Zamudio after reviewing footage of the incident from two nearby school buses.
04:37He now is being held at Northampton County Prison without bail.
04:43While one teen narrowly avoided a bullet, another teen in the area was taken into custody, according to KYW.
04:51A teenager who admitted to fatally shooting a man during a carjacking in South Philadelphia three years ago,
04:59sentenced to at least a decade behind bars.
05:02Here's KYW's crime and justice reporter, Christian Johansson.
05:06Rashid Banks Jr. was 15 years old when he shot and killed 50-year-old Michael Salerno in July of
05:112023 over his Pontiac sedan.
05:13Banks pleaded guilty in February, a third-degree murder conspiracy robbery of a motor vehicle and a gun offense.
05:18Three other firearms charges were dropped.
05:21Police say Banks was one of three armed suspects who jumped out of a red Kia Soul and tried to
05:25steal the car at 11th and Porter.
05:27They say Salerno, who had a friend in the car at the time, was trying to protect her and fought
05:32back when he shot.
05:33Judge Charles Ehrlich sentenced the now 17-year-old Banks to 10 to 25 years behind bars.
05:38The other two suspects were never arrested.
05:40KYW also reported on a tragic firearm incident that officials believe was an accident.
05:47It claimed the life of an elementary school student this week.
05:51A student in the Upper Derby School District in Delaware County has died in what officials believe was a case
05:57of accidental gunfire.
05:58Here's KYW's Vic Ragupathy.
06:00Upper Derby School District superintendent says Thursday afternoon a student was shot inside their home.
06:06While Upper Derby police are still investigating the incident, authorities believe the shooting was the result of children playing with
06:11a gun.
06:12The school district is working with police as they look further into the incident, and officials say they will provide
06:16updates as they become available.
06:18Adam Garber is the CEO of Ceasefire PA, an anti-gun violence advocacy group.
06:22He says if you have a gun in the home, keeping it locked away is paramount.
06:26You don't want any unauthorized individual, especially a child, getting access to that firearm.
06:33The American Academy of Pediatrics and experts recommend always securing your firearm, ideally unloaded.
06:39Options include getting a lockbox or a cable lock that will prevent your gun from firing.
06:43The Upper Derby superintendent shared resources with parents about discussing the consequences of playing with guns and the grieving process
06:50after violent events.
06:51There will also be professionals available at Beverly Hills Middle School Friday to lend support to anyone who needs it.
06:58In Dallas, Texas, Odyssey Station KRLD 1080 provided a report on the search in Everman, Texas for Noel Alvarez, a
07:09child last seen more than three years ago.
07:13Here's KRLD reporter Austin York.
07:15This is the latest in several attempts to find the remains at that location.
07:20Everman police confirmed the search is linked to the little boy's disappearance, but say no new leads or information brought
07:25them back to the house.
07:26The six-year-old was last seen alive in the fall of 2022.
07:29However, police were not made aware of his disappearance until the following year.
07:34His mother, Cindy Rodriguez-Singh, was charged with his murder, but took off to India with her other kids before
07:39she could be taken into custody.
07:41Last year, she was extradited back to Texas to stay in trial, but a judge has ruled her incompetent and
07:46ordered her held at a state mental facility.
07:49Noel is presumed dead.
07:52KRLD also provided an update on the Tanner Horner case.
07:57The station has been following the trial for this former FedEx driver who pleaded guilty to the murder of seven
08:04-year-old Athena Strand.
08:06She was killed in 2022.
08:08Tanner Horner sentenced to death in Fort Worth for killing seven-year-old Athena Strand, and he's now appealing his
08:13sentence.
08:14He pleaded guilty to killing the little girl at the start of his trial, and jurors for weeks heard difficult
08:19testimony as they had to decide whether he should die or spend the rest of his life behind bars.
08:23Jurors deliberated less than three hours when they made their decision, and now his attorneys have filed an appeal with
08:29the Texas Court of Criminal Appeals.
08:31If they affirm the sentence, they can go to the U.S. Supreme Court.
08:40Life can feel overwhelming, but you don't have to go through it alone.
08:44On my podcast, From the Heart with Rachel Brathen, I share openly and vulnerably about everything life brings us and
08:51what we can learn by living with our hearts a little bit more open.
08:53Every Friday, a new episode brings you a new story with topics on self-care, motherhood, healing, and more.
09:00You are enough, just the way you are.
09:03This podcast is a reminder of that.
09:05Follow and listen to From the Heart with Rachel Brathen wherever you get your podcasts.
09:10In a great mood on Valentine's Day 2024, there was this huge parade celebrating the Super Bowl win of the
09:18Kansas City Chiefs.
09:19And the weather? It was unseasonably nice.
09:22Families and friends were gathered near Union Station to enjoy the festive atmosphere.
09:29Then, amid the joy and the confetti, pops of gunfire could be heard.
09:34As shots rang out, more than 20 people were hit.
09:39One of them, radio host Lisa Lopez-Galvan, died.
09:43Others were left injured, including children.
09:47Terry Young and Dominic Miller were both found guilty of unlawful use of a weapon
09:52after initially facing higher charges connected to the parade shooting.
09:57Both were sentenced to two years in the Missouri Department of Corrections.
10:01But both of them have been released as of this week, according to reports.
10:06The Dana and Parks Show, out of Odyssey Station KMBZ in Kansas City, discussed the case this week.
10:13Let's listen.
10:15Are you ready to get upset?
10:17Oh, don't do this to me. Why?
10:19From the Kansas City Star.
10:21Ugh!
10:23I already know what you're going to say before you say it.
10:26Two men accused of firing shots in the mass shooting at the 2024 Kansas City Chiefs Super Bowl victory rally
10:33that left one woman dead have been released from...
10:36You mispronounced murderers.
10:38...have been released from prison...
10:40Alleged.
10:40...after short stints in state custody.
10:43Both men, Dominic Miller and Terry Young, faced murder charges and pleaded guilty to lesser gun charges in March and
10:53April.
10:53Idiots.
10:54...and received two-year prison sentence.
10:56How do you kill a woman?
10:57Bullets are flying at the Chiefs Parade.
11:00Families are separated, screaming.
11:03People are injured trying to flee in the melee.
11:07Mm-hmm.
11:07And two years later, you're just out somewhere back on the streets of Kansas City?
11:13Yeah.
11:14Can you not say when something like this happens that as part of your parole, we don't want you anywhere
11:18near our town.
11:18Go find another town.
11:20Both pleaded guilty to an unlawful use of a weapon charge.
11:24Unbelievable.
11:25Why not put them up on murder?
11:27Oh, God, it makes me mad.
11:28I don't understand, and I guess I understand it from like a political perspective, if that's the way we want
11:35to go with it.
11:35I don't want to go politics here, but this whole stand-your-ground kerfuffle in the state of Missouri, it
11:41all comes down to an interpretation of the law.
11:44So, yes, I understand that a certain number of prosecutors are leaning on this one interpretation from this one Supreme
11:53Court decision regarding the stand-your-ground laws about one case that happened in St. Louis.
11:57However, we then ask a jury of 12 people, the peers of the people accused of committing the crime, whether
12:05or not they committed the crime based on their interpretation of the law.
12:10But, Sam, there's no wiggle room with that interpretation.
12:12I will remind you, the case in St. Louis was one woman saying to another woman, I'm going to whomp
12:19you.
12:19It was a W word that means smacking.
12:22Mollywalk.
12:23I'm going to mollywalk you.
12:25The other woman then said, well, I'm going to stab you.
12:27And the Missouri Supreme Court found that the way this crap law is written, the stand-your-ground law, that
12:34just the act of saying, excuse me, ma'am, I'm now going to mollywalk you, is enough that the crazy
12:41lady number two has every right to stab her.
12:44What does mollywalk even mean?
12:45It means knock out with one punch.
12:48But, again, Dana, I think that we're leaning too far onto this interpretation.
12:51And I don't know what the drive is behind it.
12:54Deep down inside, I feel like they're trying to get the law tightened up, and this is their way of
12:59doing it.
13:00But there are, Sam, wait, there are prosecutors who are Republicans, and there are prosecutors who are Democrats, and they're
13:05all screaming about the same crap law.
13:07Okay, but that's still, we can still put it before a jury and let them decide.
13:11Boom, and go with the lesser included.
13:12We can still charge them the whole, we're just not going to charge them.
13:16Something else is going on.
13:18The problem is, on paper, this seemed like a decent law.
13:21The lawmakers are like, ooh, ooh, look, we love gun rights.
13:24What it really comes down to is, if I'm shooting at you, and I'm an idiot, and now you're shooting
13:29at me, and you're an idiot, we both felt fear?
13:31Who are you going to prosecute for that?
13:32But why not take them to trial on a murder charge, and include a lesser included charge?
13:39Because all they have to say is, I felt in fear of my life.
13:42He was shooting at me, I shot at him, we both felt fear, end of story, can't go to, they
13:48have to rework the law.
13:49But you killed an innocent person.
13:51That's absolutely right.
13:51So in that scenario, you take it to trial, worst case scenario, they get the same charges they walked away
13:56with.
13:57Best case scenario, for the public, they go to jail for murder.
14:01Absolute travesty.
14:03Lindell Mays, another man charged in connection with the Kansas City Super Bowl parade shooting, still faces charges of second
14:11-degree murder, armed criminal action, unlawful use of a weapon, and causing a catastrophe, according to KCTV.
14:19His trial is set to begin next March.
14:27I want to tell you about a new podcast from Odyssey called Family Lore.
14:31It's about interesting family stories and the truth behind them.
14:34It's available now on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your shows.
14:38In 2023, the trial of South Carolina attorney Alex Murdaugh resulted in convictions for the murders of his wife and
14:47son, and eventually two life sentences.
14:50Those convictions were overturned this week.
14:53Here's Tara Servatius of Odyssey Station 98.9 Word FM in Greenville, South Carolina, discussing the news.
15:02It's truly one of the most stunning cases I've ever seen.
15:05I mean, for the clerk of court, Becky Hill, who, by the way, is now the convicted clerk of court,
15:11criminally convicted clerk of court, to tell the jury,
15:14Ah, that guy, Murdaugh, don't listen to what he says. He's not very credible. He's probably lying.
15:23Dang, girl. What were you thinking?
15:29Even the jurors were stunned. And, of course, she was thinking she'd write a book and wanted a certain outcome.
15:36And, you know, I didn't think much of, you know, basically turning the jury, Lee, into, you know, part of
15:42the story.
15:43It's just, legally, you can't do that. And she would have known that.
15:47I don't know how she thought she was going to get away with this.
15:52Ah, nobody will say anything.
15:59Before we dive further into new developments, including a new trial for Murdaugh,
16:05let's get some background about that original trial.
16:08This is audio from March 2023, when anchor Pat Thurston of Odyssey Station KCBS Radio in San Francisco spoke with
16:18David Katz,
16:19a former federal prosecutor who's also worked as a defense attorney in Beverly Hills, about the Murdaugh convictions.
16:2820 months ago, the wife and son of a highly influential attorney in South Carolina were shot to death on
16:34the family's vast property near the dog kennels.
16:37Alex Murdoff claimed he was nowhere near the kennels when his family members were murdered.
16:42He was proved a liar when a video was presented taken by his son that showed he was at the
16:46kennels just before they were shot.
16:48Alex lied about a lot of things in the case.
16:50He admitted opioid addiction, admitted on the stand to his addiction to his financial crimes and to lying to investigators
16:56trying to find the killers.
16:58But there was no physical evidence connecting him to the crime.
17:01The defense seemed to rest their argument on that more than anything else.
17:05The jury has found Alex Murdoff guilty of killing his family members.
17:11Were you surprised at the verdict?
17:13I wasn't surprised at the verdict, Pat, but I was surprised at how quickly it was returned.
17:19I think a lot of people were.
17:20I think a lot of stations and media got kind of invested in, you know, it was close, like a
17:26ballgame that you want to be close.
17:28And in my judgment, it really wasn't close because of what you said, that after he had this false alibi
17:34narrative,
17:35after he'd said he was nowhere near the scene of the shootings of his wife and his own son,
17:40he was undone by this very short video that was taken by the son who was killed.
17:47And it took about a year to get it off of the security system that's put on the Apple device.
17:54But the police and the prosecution were very persistent.
17:58They got it.
17:59And once they got it, it undid the whole story that Alec Murdoch had been telling, that he was nowhere
18:04near the scene of the shootings.
18:07It put him at the scene of the shootings just five minutes before they happened.
18:11And had he really left, none of this made any sense because he would have heard shotgun blasts.
18:17They're very, very loud.
18:18So they would have called his attention.
18:20And he never returned, according to him, to the scene until much later.
18:24But as I say, he wouldn't even have taken the stand.
18:27He wouldn't have had to sort of tell this utterly, to me, improbable story had it not been that the
18:33police and the prosecution were persistent at getting that piece of evidence,
18:37that crucial piece of evidence, that minute-long video.
18:40They called two witnesses who identified his voice.
18:43Once that put him there, I think he felt that he had no choice as a seasoned trial lawyer himself
18:48but to take the stand and to try to, you know, just go for broke.
18:52And that failed.
18:53And I don't think any of the appeals will end up succeeding either.
18:56I think he's going to spend the rest of his life in prison.
18:58We'll know what his sentence is tomorrow morning.
19:01The judge will sentence him tomorrow morning.
19:02I suspect a life without parole.
19:04You know, one of the things, and I didn't watch this trial start to finish, as I've done with a
19:08lot of trials you and I have spoken about.
19:10But one of the things that I did see that bothered me was evidence that showed that after he knew
19:17that his wife and son had been murdered like this,
19:20he didn't call family members, the people who were closest, the people who would care the most about these deaths.
19:27But he was making phone calls.
19:29He was making phone calls to other people.
19:31He was calling friends.
19:32He was calling business associates.
19:34That, to me, made me believe that he didn't care, that he didn't care about what happened and that he
19:41wasn't thinking about, oh, my God, how am I going to break the news to so-and-so?
19:46What did you think of that testimony?
19:49He came across to me as an utter egomaniac, a person who was totally self-involved, arrogant.
19:55He was from this legal dynasty down there.
19:58You know, it might have been a small pond, but they were the big fishes there.
20:01For over 100 years, they controlled the prosecutor's office.
20:05You know, their word was kind of a big deal down there.
20:08And things started to unravel for him, too, with his 19-year-old son, the one who ended up being
20:12shot to death.
20:13He'd been in a boat accident.
20:15And, of course, one of the sub-themes of this whole thing, and he admitted this on the stand, was
20:21that Murdoch was a liar.
20:23He was an embezzler.
20:24He looked people right in the eye and stole their money.
20:26He said, I'm going to get a big recovery for you.
20:29And then he absconded with the money.
20:31He said that was to feed his opioid addiction, which also didn't make a whole lot of sense.
20:35In the course of that, he ended up opening the door to the fact that he had had somebody shoot
20:41him, and he had actually been shot.
20:43But apparently he wasn't injured that much, but he opened the door to the fact that he had actually had
20:48somebody shoot him.
20:50I guess that was a client who was also like a distant cousin.
20:53So the whole thing ended up being terrible, and he had to stay on the stand, as he did repeatedly,
20:58that I'm a liar, I'm a cheat, but I'm not a murderer.
21:02And I think that what he thought, talking about the arrogance point, the egomaniacal part of him, is he really
21:07was one of those people, I think, who thought he could commit the perfect crime.
21:11The reason was he was going to cover up all the financial machinations, and he did manage to delay several
21:17probes into his stealing and embezzlement.
21:20And I think that he actually thought through that it would be so outlandish that anyone would kill their own
21:25wife and their own son that they'll never think that I could have had that motive, and the jury will
21:31ultimately acquit me.
21:32Well, the prosecutor had the last laugh, if you want to call that, because it was two and a half
21:36hours.
21:37It was shorter than the O.J. verdict.
21:39And I have to tell you this in case you haven't seen it.
21:41O.J. actually called in to opine on the verdict.
21:45No, he didn't.
21:46He did.
21:47It's on every news station.
21:49It's on every TV station.
21:51And the satirists are saying, you know, if Murdoch didn't do this, maybe O.J. did.
21:58Maybe he found the real killer after all.
22:00They're all looking for the real killers.
22:02They're all looking for the real killers out in South Carolina on that huge estate who happened to kill his
22:07wife and son five minutes after he left them alive.
22:10Yeah, David Katz.
22:12So in a horrible, tragic case like this, you've left me laughing.
22:18By September 2023, Murdoch's attorneys were requesting a retrial, citing interference.
22:25Eric Thomas and Maggie Schaefer of KCBS spoke with Bruce Green, a law professor at Fordham University who specializes in
22:33criminal law and procedure,
22:35about the case and about legal ethics at the time.
22:39Attorneys for Alex Murdoch are vying for a retrial, saying the clerk of the court had a hand in influencing
22:45the jury.
22:46The clerk apparently rushed jurors to a decision and even made up a story to get one dismissed,
22:51as well as going on a book tour about the case after it closed down, all bringing up ethical, legal,
22:57and other questions surrounding the trial.
23:00So I've covered a few hundred trials in my time.
23:03In most cases, you never even noticed the clerk.
23:05So what does the clerk normally do?
23:08Normally, the clerk brings the jurors in and out of the courtroom, makes sure that they're comfortable,
23:15arranges for them to have meals if they're being transported somewhere, you know, arranges that.
23:21It's a ministerial job and has nothing to do with the adjudication of guilt or innocence.
23:29So what in this case would you describe as unethical?
23:33Well, I can only talk about the allegations.
23:36Allegations, exactly.
23:37So the allegation is that the clerk of the court talked about the substance of the case with some of
23:48the jurors
23:48and basically stated or implied that Murdoch should not be believed.
23:54Before he testified, allegedly, she told one of the jurors or the jury in general to watch him closely
24:04and look at his actions and his movements, implying that he was going to be lying.
24:10And then, allegedly, she pressured the jury to rush its verdict by not allowing the smokers on the jury to
24:20have a cigarette break
24:21and suggesting that they weren't going to be allowed to go home for the night if they didn't reach a
24:26verdict.
24:26And then there's some allegations that she also had secret communications with the jury foreperson,
24:35which for a foreperson did not submit an affidavit.
24:38So we don't know, A, whether that's true and B, what they talked about.
24:42But the implication was that they were talking about the substance of the case.
24:46So basically, you know, during a jury trial, the jury is not supposed to, A, deliberate until after they've gotten
24:55the trial completed
24:56and gotten the jury instructions from the judge, and B, they're not allowed to talk to anybody outside the jury
25:02about the substance of the case.
25:03And so certainly they're not allowed to have, I don't know, a friend or neighbor or the court clerk talk
25:11to them about the case,
25:12much less, you know, try to persuade them about who's telling the truth or not.
25:17So these are pretty, you know, they're just allegations that we haven't heard from the clerk.
25:23There's just, you know, an affidavit from a juror.
25:27They haven't, you know, the jurors haven't testified or spoken to the judge about what they observed.
25:33So it's really just at a very early stage.
25:35But if these allegations turn out to be true, then it really jeopardizes the verdict.
25:40Indeed, it jeopardizes the verdict, because, I mean, if a judge clearly tells the jurors unambiguously that you can't talk
25:49about the case,
25:49then officers of the court and clerks of the court know that they can't have anything to do with that
25:54either.
25:55That's absolutely right.
25:57And, you know, there's not a lot of case law about this, because these things don't happen very often.
26:03The leading Supreme Court case goes back to 1954, so that's, you know, almost three-quarters of a century old.
26:12And it's a very short opinion that basically just says, you know, if somebody, a third person was communicating with
26:21the jury about the substance of the case,
26:23it's presumptively prejudicial, presumptively reversible error.
26:27And unless the court finds that the error was harmless, you have to go back and try the case again.
26:34I don't know how you would find this was harmless if, in fact, it occurred.
26:38So I think the $64,000 question is whether these conversations, you know, really took place.
26:44If it's true, it's a very expensive mistake, a potential retrial.
26:50But what's so odd is that this was such a high-profile case, right, televised.
26:56I mean, does the defense team really think that it can get a different verdict?
27:02Well, you know, it was a circumstantial case.
27:06Nobody saw Murdoch kill his wife and son.
27:09And, you know, I think it was an incredibly strong circumstantial case from what I've read.
27:15But maybe he's hopeful.
27:17And now that he's seen the prosecution's evidence, maybe he feels that there's a better way strategically to address the
27:26case.
27:28But, you know, it also gives him hope.
27:32And there's no downside, you know, to appealing and reversing the conviction and trying again.
27:37Well, let me ask you this.
27:38We have about 45 seconds left.
27:41The case was already, as Margie mentioned, high-profile.
27:44If you have it reversed because of something as, you know, flashy as this, then how do you find an
27:52impartial jury after this?
27:54Well, that is an amazing thing.
27:57But it's not that the jury has to have no knowledge.
28:01It's that the jurors have to be able to say truthfully that they'll put aside what they've read and learned
28:09about the case from other sources and draw just on the evidence in the case and reaching their verdict.
28:17So I don't think, you know, there have been lots of high-profile cases over history and judges managed to
28:25find jurors who say they could put aside what they've read and decide based on the evidence.
28:30In Greenville this week, Tara Servatius asked News Director Lee Rogers what he thought of the judge's move to overturn
28:39Murdoch's convictions.
28:40It's not just the clerk of court, but it is also the judge that was involved in the case.
28:45And this honestly did not surprise me.
28:48Me either.
28:49Because we've known for a long time that, you know, she was making these comments, that she'd spoken to the
28:55jury, said things that should not have been said.
28:56So this didn't surprise me a bit.
28:59Even though Murdoch's murder convictions have been overturned, he still has sentences for federal financial crimes to serve.
29:07In April 2024, the U.S. Department of Justice announced that Murdoch had been sentenced to 40 years in prison
29:14for those financial crimes.
29:17Next up, we'll be hearing about a mass shooting that's been linked to AI and more.
29:25Before allegedly shooting five children dead at a secondary school in Tumblr Ridge, British Columbia, and injuring others,
29:3418-year-old Jessie Van Rootselaar also allegedly shot and killed her mother and her half-brother at her home,
29:42according to the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation.
29:46The teen later died of a self-inflicted injury.
29:50Van Rootselaar was using OpenAI's artificial intelligence-powered chatbot, ChatGPT, before the shooting.
29:58The CBC reported that her account had been banned for, quote,
30:02disturbing content, and law firm Rice, Parsons, Leone, and Elliott claims that 12 different OpenAI employees
30:10asked the company to warn Canadian law enforcement about her.
30:14Now, the firm is suing OpenAI in California.
30:18Odyssey station WBEN News and Talk in Buffalo discussed the case with crime and terrorism analyst Brad Garrett this week.
30:27And we're taking a look at what we keep hearing more and more of, Brad, and that is AI, ChatGPT,
30:34some of these other artificial intelligence programs being used in or at least being looked at before a crime happens
30:44or may have happened.
30:47And we're all kind of wondering, well, shouldn't this raise a red flag?
30:51What can we do about it?
30:52What do we know about this, Brad?
30:54So if you think about the number of people that say bad things and maybe facilitate or try to facilitate
31:03AI to help them,
31:05you know, I don't know how big that number would be.
31:09You would think if somebody goes on AI, says, I want to shoot up my school, and then AI helps
31:18them figure out what's the best type of weapon,
31:22when's the best time to go to school, how to get to school, how to exit the school,
31:26and maybe even help you write a manifesto, you would think, obviously, that's a huge red flag.
31:32Like, you know, the question is, there's a lot of AI companies we know about the big ones,
31:38like OpenAI that I think I discussed in my pitch that they're being sued by some folks in the British
31:46Columbia
31:46because of a mass shooting there.
31:52There's a real issue about where the AI companies can draw a line.
31:59In the example I just gave, you'd think that would be a no-brainer, but you also have to have
32:04the mechanism to do that.
32:06I mean, they're trying to monitor, like, potentially millions of people at the same time, you know,
32:12and they primarily do that with algorithms, not listening to what people or reading what people are writing or whatever
32:19it might be.
32:20But, you know, it's a pretty daunting task.
32:23But having said that, you know, is it worth not doing it and then getting sued?
32:30And clearly it's a judgment call, I think, to a certain extent by the AI companies as to,
32:35does this really meet a threat threshold, or is this person just talking talk?
32:42It's a tough call, I think, sometimes.
32:45But don't be surprised if you see more and more of these lawsuits where people are alleging that AI could
32:52have stopped a potential shooter and didn't.
32:55But do we know if AI, being so intelligent, if AI could stop the shooters before they opened fire?
33:02Well, I can only, the short answer is, no, you can't stop a person from doing whatever they're going to
33:10do.
33:11But you can certainly not facilitate or help them do what they are saying they want to do.
33:18So I think the question you're asking me is, is AI, you know, the contributor, the motivator?
33:26It's really hard to say.
33:28I mean, logic would say in some cases it appears to be the case, but can you say that for
33:34sure?
33:34The answer is no.
33:36If you're determined to commit a mass shooting, obviously we had plenty of mass shootings before there was AI.
33:43And people find, you know, websites, they find individuals, they find groups to help legitimize slash rationalize what they want
33:55to go do.
33:57So all I'm suggesting is we do need to figure out better ways to monitor to stop some, what would
34:07appear to be pretty obvious, would be mass shooters.
34:11There's two things to this, Brad.
34:13There's one, what you just mentioned, monitoring this.
34:15I mean, you'd think it should be easy enough to throw up a red flag.
34:19But then the other is the programming here and thinking specifically of ChatGPT, where, I mean, it constantly, and, you
34:28know, we could be talking about a shooter or we could be talking about something else here.
34:32It constantly is validating people who are putting things into it.
34:36It's constantly, you know, encouraging people, offering words of encouragement.
34:41It seems like a programming or design flaw, or maybe it's on purpose, you know, we don't really know, where
34:48it's just, you know, it's acting like your best friend, you know, your cheerleader in the corner, no matter if
34:54you're trying to drop 10 pounds or do something heinous.
35:01So, you've hit a direct point that that is what it does, but that's why people use it.
35:08You don't want to go on a website that then beats you up because, well, you don't want to do
35:12that.
35:13You know what's wrong with you.
35:14They want a soft, compassionate, literate voice that guides them through depression, relationship issues, whatever it might be.
35:25And so, you know, there's a real attraction to that, which then does two things.
35:33It, A, attracts more people, and, B, it attracts you to go use it more.
35:38And the last thing they need is to be hard-nosed on the front end, so to speak, because people
35:46will just go someplace else because there's a lot of competition now within the AI world.
35:52You know, we're today remembering the Topps mass shooting here in Buffalo took 10 lives four years ago today.
35:59And there are lawsuits in this case against social media companies for influencing the shooter.
36:04But, you know, what the cases have in common with what you're talking about with AI is that outside factors
36:11figure in in many of these attacks, right?
36:14Well, that's right.
36:15And I assume the lawyers for the AI companies will point that out, and rightly so.
36:23So, you know, we'll see.
36:25But, you know, don't be surprised if you see more lawsuits as time goes on because it's a logical, rational
36:32place, if you're a would-be shooter, to go to, to help you figure out how to best commit this
36:39horrible act.
36:43In Buffalo, WBEN has covered the impact of a mass shooting, the 2022 Topps supermarket massacre, for years.
36:53Then-18-year-old Peyton Gendron allegedly shot 13 people, killing 10.
36:59A manifesto from Gendron indicated that it was a racially motivated attack.
37:0511 of the 13 victims were black.
37:08And research has connected the case to online radicalization.
37:13Thursday marked the four-year anniversary of the massacre, and Gendron is still awaiting a federal trial with a possible
37:21death penalty.
37:22Meanwhile, the community is still healing from the loss.
37:25Reverend Mark Blue, chair of the 514 Memorial Commission, provided an update on those efforts to heal the community in
37:35an interview with WBEN this week.
37:38How are you remembering today?
37:41Well, I'm remembering today as a day, not only a somber day, but also a day in which progress is
37:50being made on the 514 Memorial Healing Center.
37:55We're sending out all of our prayers to all of the families, and not only the families of those lives
38:01that were stolen from us, but also the survivors, the individuals that were in the tops and in the surrounding
38:08area.
38:10It's going to be a day in which we will always remember for the rest of our lives, but we
38:15want to just be encouraging to those families and letting them have their moment of grief and not try to
38:23put more on them.
38:24So we are remembering this as a somber occasion, but also an occasion in which we have learned to persevere
38:33through.
38:34Reverend, many people are taking part in a day of service today.
38:38Many will be at the Remembrance at 2 o'clock this afternoon at the Top Store.
38:42But for those not going to be there, what do you want them to do today or to think about?
38:50Take time for themselves, because everybody's healing process is different.
38:55Their grieving process is different.
38:57Take time for yourself.
38:59Have that moment of reflection, which we will always have.
39:03But self-maintenance is very important.
39:08We need to take time for ourselves.
39:09We don't do that enough.
39:11This time, this day has always been full of activities.
39:16But for those who are going through and grieving, take time for yourself.
39:21Take time with your family.
39:23Enjoy your family.
39:26You mentioned that there is progress being made on the 514 Memorial.
39:31There's a lot of questions as to, you know, what exactly is being done there and where this process is.
39:38What can you tell us about what happened this week?
39:41Well, this week we did hire a construction manager.
39:45And the construction manager will help us to really get the accurate estimates and timetable for when the Monument Memorial
39:55Healing Center can be built.
39:57We'll have more actual and real numbers that we can give out to the community so they'll know exactly how
40:03much it will cost for this to happen.
40:05And we're looking at roughly about maybe within the next two to three months we will have another update on
40:12real cost.
40:14And also we are in the soft phase of our capital campaign.
40:19So it's moving quite rapidly compared to other memorials that have been done.
40:27We have had the advantage, and I say that not happily, but I say we've had the advantage of looking
40:35at what others have done and not duplicating some of the errors or mistakes or pitfalls that they ran into
40:43because we've been talking to them.
40:45And by having that communication, we were able to move at a much more rapid pace because, unfortunately, of the
40:54tragedies that have happened in our past in our country.
40:56This memorial will be built at Jefferson and Best, and I realize you don't have the true cost of it,
41:04but how much money has been raised, and what is the goal right now?
41:10Well, the goal is to raise as much money as we can.
41:13Right now we have about $7 million to $8 million that has been committed to the project, and we are
41:22hoping to raise another $15 million to $20 million because we would like for this not only to be done
41:31one time, but to be maintained and taken care of forever in perpetuity.
41:37So, you know, it's a fundraising venture that will happen on a regular basis because we want to make sure
41:46that our community is being serviced and that it's not just a one-time incident of a building being done
41:55and then forgot about.
41:57But, you know, we're trying to raise as much as we can to make sure that it is taken care
42:03of in perpetuity.
42:04You know, we've reached the point now where it's been so long, there's been so many meetings, there's been so
42:09much money involved that a lot of people are wondering, you know, hey, why haven't we just used this money
42:15for something else to better the community instead of this memorial project?
42:20You mentioned not just being a building.
42:23How, in your mind, is this memorial going to be a benefit to the surrounding community?
42:30Well, it will be a place of solace, a place where people can heal, a place where people can reflect,
42:36a place where people can learn.
42:38We will be partnering with other organizations to have different services at this particular site on Jefferson and Bess, which
42:48we haven't had in the past.
42:50It will be a place where even artists can show their works.
42:55So it's going to be an ever-evolving place in which we can come and learn and come and receive
43:04any of the services that we need for the community.
43:06We're not trying to be a first.
43:10We're trying to bring other entities and other organizations together for healing.
43:15We also want this to be a place where even the schools can come and learn about what has happened
43:22and learn how we can be a vehicle and a pinnacle to teach that racism is learned behavior and it
43:30can be unlearned.
43:31So it's going to be a great place, not only locally, but I believe even internationally, people will come and
43:41see how we persevered and how we made a difference in our community to help eradicate racism and the prejudices
43:50that are in our society.
43:52You know, Reverend Blue, you always say that you have one chance to get this right.
43:56With that said, are you satisfied with every decision that's been made so far?
44:01Yes, I am, because it's heavily community-involved.
44:05We're doing focus groups even currently right now.
44:08At the very beginning of this, we started by having the community share their input as to what needs to
44:16be done for our community, for healing, for our community, for uplifting.
44:21As you can see, a lot of things are happening on Jefferson right now, and community redevelopment.
44:28So it fits.
44:30This is going to be a place where people will want to come and want to share not only their
44:34experiences, but even have physical activity, even have yoga.
44:39There's a lot of unlimited possibilities in which we are still developing for this site and for this building.
44:46It will be used all year round, and one of the things that we need to do is to know
44:51that our children need this learning opportunity, as well as our adults, to help in the grieving process.
44:59So, you know, we are working with heavily community input as to what we're doing and going forward.
45:07In Minnesota, authorities are taking a new approach towards reducing fatal shootings.
45:13It starts with investigating non-fatal shootings.
45:17Here's Ramsey County Attorney John Choi explaining this new program in an interview with Jason DeRuscia of Odyssey Station WCCO
45:26News Talk in the Twin Cities.
45:30How does investigating non-deadly shootings lead to maybe answers in actual homicide?
45:39Yeah, because I think that we're sending the wrong message if we don't solve these crimes.
45:43And let's talk about why this was.
45:45A lot of times, you know, in our communities, we have retaliatory violence, cyclical violence.
45:51So when the police officer shows up to the emergency room and the person is recovering from their gunshots, they
45:57don't want to participate in their own investigation and prosecution.
46:02Because it's gang. It's like gang stuff where somebody.
46:05Yeah, there's retaliatory violence, and they don't believe that the system is going to keep them safe.
46:09And so it's better for them to exact, keep themselves safe and then exact whatever revenge they're going to do.
46:16So this just perpetuates, especially in urban jurisdictions all across America.
46:22But if we were to take an approach to say that we're going to investigate and prosecute these cases regardless
46:28of whether or not the victim participates.
46:31And by the way, we do that all the time for a homicide, right?
46:34There is no victim.
46:35We figure out how to solve these cases so we can do the same thing for these cases.
46:40And so the effort and the initiative is just to really treat these cases like a homicide.
46:47The St. Paul police created their own separate unit, not the homicide unit.
46:52It's a separate non-fadal shooting unit.
46:54They go out immediately as soon as there are shots fired.
46:57And then we also created a victim witness emergency fund.
47:03And the theory of change there is that if we could take care of some of the basic needs of
47:08individuals around safety, maybe later they will participate.
47:12But we're assuming that they're not going to participate.
47:15And we're developing and getting all of the evidence that you can get, like cell phone location, video cameras, all
47:22of those things.
47:23And we're just on it right away and treat them like a homicide.
47:27And that's why these response is sort of the same, right, John?
47:31Like the police department sends out the same kind of cavalry that they would if they're now in St. Paul,
47:37there were only 15 homicides.
47:39Right. So does that make it more doable year before?
47:42But think about year before. There were 32.
47:45Right. Right. 32 homicides.
47:47And then we got it down to 15. And I know it's because of this.
47:50I mean, just the shots fired in our town.
47:52I mean, it went down from 183 to 73 in terms of the results are unbelievable.
48:01Are they better than you expected?
48:03Yeah, we were just thinking if we could get it over 50 percent because our model is Denver and they
48:08got it up to 50 percent after a year.
48:10We thought we'd be doing great. And wow, we're at like above 70 percent.
48:14And we've been doing that for the last two years.
48:16Thank you so much for listening to this True Crime Roundup from the On Deadline podcast.
48:21This episode was written and produced by me, Lauren Berry.
48:25Special thanks to 1010 Winds in New York, KYW Newsradio in Philadelphia,
48:33KRLD 1080 in Dallas,
48:35The Dana and Parks Show out of KMBZ in Kansas City,
48:39The Tara Show out of 98.9 Word in Greenville, South Carolina,
48:44KCBS Radio in the Bay Area,
48:48WBEN News and Talk in Buffalo,
48:50And WCCO News Talk in the Twin Cities.
48:54You can find these programs on the Odyssey app or wherever you find your podcasts.
49:00You can find these True Crime Roundups by subscribing to the On Deadline podcast,
49:06the Who Killed Strawberry podcast,
49:08or the Bitter Academia podcast,
49:11on the Odyssey app,
49:12or wherever you get your podcasts.
49:21Gone South has been a podcast about crime in the American South.
49:25But for our new season, we're widening the lens.
49:28Follow and listen to Gone South Season 5,
49:31available now on Apple Podcasts, Spotify,
49:34or wherever you get your shows.
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