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00:00Una vez en la historia, Costa Rica recibió a un jefe de Estado de Israel.
00:03Isaac Herzog llegó al país en el marco del traspaso de poderes
00:07y brindó una entrevista exclusiva a Siete Días.
00:10A continuación, conoceremos un extracto de esta conversación que tuvimos
00:13en donde él se refirió a la situación en Gaza, la guerra en Irán
00:16y el Tratado de Libre Comercio con Costa Rica.
00:19También escucharemos a una de las voces críticas contra el accionar israelí
00:23y la posición de Costa Rica con relación a este país.
00:27Comenzamos.
00:30Muchas gracias por acompañarnos.
00:31Gracias por invitarme.
00:33Señor Presidente, ¿cómo respondes a los que creen que la ofensión
00:38ha ido más allá del derecho a la defensa de la defensa?
00:42Le digo a todos, si realmente quieres judge, ven a la israelí y ver por sí mismos.
00:47No hemos buscado esta guerra.
00:49En octubre 7, nos fuimos atacados por miles de terroristas
00:53que violaron nuestra brecha internacional,
00:56que no nos fuimos atacados por los que no nos fuimos atacados por los que no nos fuimos.
01:03so many, mostly
01:05by the way, those who supported
01:07peace mostly with the Palestinians
01:09in Israel. And since then
01:11the entire Middle East has changed
01:13because following that
01:14proxies of Iran,
01:17the big long arms of
01:19the Iranian Empire of Evil
01:20attacked us from Lebanon,
01:23from Yemen, and of course from
01:25Iran. And the rest is history.
01:27And when you are bombarded by
01:29missiles of half a ton,
01:30you fight back, you eradicate a regime
01:33the leadership, you undermine
01:35their capabilities, and
01:37you bring a historic
01:39shift in the Middle East.
01:41Was it necessary for 70,000
01:43people to die in Gaza in order to
01:45neutralize Hamas? It's
01:47really tragic and painful,
01:49and every innocent
01:50civilian tears my heart.
01:54I can tell you that
01:55the numbers are heavily distorted,
01:58but we
01:59assume, even if there are
02:01innocent civilians, and there
02:04probably are, it's the
02:06conditions of war that are the
02:08ones who are dictating it, meaning
02:09the whole infrastructure in
02:12Gaza is a terror city
02:13underneath.
02:16Hundreds and hundreds of kilometers
02:18of tunnels, full of
02:20ammunition, missiles that were
02:22smuggled and produced, bombs and
02:25equipment, all the money that the
02:27international community poured into
02:29Gaza for the well-being of its
02:31people went to a whole huge city of
02:34terror underneath.
02:35Now, if you're a soldier, a
02:37commander, you go in, we alert in
02:40advance according to international
02:41law, we send leaflets and text
02:44messages, we say by loudspeaker, and
02:47we go into a neighborhood, and the
02:49battle is fierce and heavy.
02:50And in many cases, Hamas took these
02:54people as hostages or simply
02:56neglected them.
02:57So, unfortunately, there were sad
03:00cases.
03:01But I can tell you that we operate
03:03strictly according to our right of
03:06self-defense and the rules of
03:07international law.
03:08Since the ceasefire in Gaza, there
03:11have been reports that Israeli
03:12armed forces continue to carry out
03:15attacks in the Strip.
03:17What then, Mr. President, is the
03:19value of a ceasefire?
03:21No.
03:21So, let's put things in perspective.
03:23There is a Security Council
03:25resolution for the first time, a
03:28long time, with almost unanimous
03:31support, saying we are now moving
03:34to a ceasefire and the next day
03:36stage in Gaza, which is to disarm
03:39Hamas, meaning Hamas has to give
03:41up their weapons, can become a
03:43political party, can join the
03:46political game in the Palestinian
03:49arena, and enable somebody, this
03:53technocratic government, to lead
03:56Gaza.
03:57Months have gone by and nothing
03:58happened.
03:59Hamas is not willing to give up its
04:01arms, is not willing to cooperate
04:04with anybody, simply procrastinating.
04:07The technocratic government in Cairo is
04:09not coming in because Hamas is
04:12refusing to give up its arm, and it's
04:14a merry-go-round, and meanwhile, they
04:17have terrorists attacking us.
04:18That's the tragedy of it all.
04:20The people of Gaza, two million
04:22people, deserve better.
04:24They deserve a good life.
04:26We want to have a good life for them
04:28near us.
04:29They are part and parcel of our life
04:31always.
04:31But it cannot be that there will be a
04:34terror infrastructure repeating October
04:367th again.
04:38And this is what shattered the trust of
04:40Israelis in the peace process.
04:42We were sure we were on track on the
04:44peace process, including regional
04:46peace.
04:46And all of a sudden, it blew up by this
04:48terror attack.
04:49Now you have to get Hamas out.
04:51You have to get Hezbollah out of
04:52Lebanon.
04:53It's the same way.
04:54You have to stop the arming by Iran.
04:56You have to hit on Iran so that it
04:58stops its empire of evil, and things
05:01will change for the better in the
05:02future.
05:03What strategy is Israel pursuing to
05:06confront the international criticism
05:08that rightly or wrongly believes that
05:10Israel is responsible for the largest
05:14conflict currently unfolding in the
05:16Middle East?
05:17Of course, Iran, Gaza, Lebanon, and as
05:20well, the economic crisis caused by the
05:22closure of the Strait of Hormuz.
05:24You're mixing, unfortunately, too many
05:27things together.
05:28This war was waged by Hamas as a
05:31proxy of Iran.
05:33Thereafter, Hezbollah joined from
05:35Lebanon, violating an agreement, a
05:38ceasefire agreement of 18 years.
05:41And after we killed Nasrallah and we
05:45broke the backbone of Hezbollah and we
05:47came to a ceasefire in 1924, now they
05:49violated it again.
05:51So what do we do?
05:52We let our people be like hanging
05:53there with their shooting at them all
05:56the time in the northern border.
05:58Then you've got Iran.
06:00Iran rushing to a nuclear weapon, which
06:03is the biggest danger in the world.
06:05And then Iran rushing to 20,000
06:07ballistic missiles.
06:09This was a clear American decision of
06:11President Donald Trump to attack them,
06:14the head of the snake.
06:15And we definitely joined in making sure
06:18that we are protected.
06:19And don't forget, Iran just butchered 50,000
06:21of its people in the streets.
06:23It's not Israel's fault.
06:25It's a whole ideology of jihadist nature that
06:29wants to eradicate any Christian, any Jew, and
06:33by the way, any moderate Muslim.
06:35Why was this the decisive moment for a
06:38military intervention of this magnitude?
06:40Because we saw in clear-cut intelligence, which was
06:46shared also, you know, by the United States and
06:49others, how they are rushing to the bomb.
06:52It's not something that's done public.
06:54It's something that is done clandestinely, hidden,
06:58operations all over, with installations.
07:01They took out all the scrutiny of the International
07:06Atomic Agency in Vienna.
07:09They did not allow inspectors to come in.
07:11They lied.
07:12They brought in equipment, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
07:15And we knew for sure that they are rushing to the bomb.
07:18And they were not far away from the bomb.
07:20And had they had the bomb, the Middle East would
07:23be gone into their hands.
07:24This is the most dangerous development because
07:26you could see in the war now with the United States
07:30in Iran, they used missiles that are 4,000 kilometers
07:34all the way to Diego Garcia from Iran.
07:38Meaning that's how far it goes, way beyond London.
07:42They have strategic plans, guys.
07:45The world should wake up.
07:47And I know it's not easy for somebody in Costa Rica
07:50to understand this because, thank God, you're blessed
07:53by God in a peaceful region and in a peaceful country.
07:58But judge it from our angle.
08:02This is the only Jewish nation state in the world.
08:05We are tiny and small.
08:07We are protecting ourselves.
08:08But the issue is much larger than that.
08:11They are threatening the free world.
08:13And I say to all my European friends, we are doing your war.
08:17We are defending Europe by taking this war on our shoulders
08:21with the United States.
08:22And following what President Trump said, Iran and the United States
08:27appear to be close to reaching an agreement, right,
08:30in which, among the key points, Iran would commit
08:33to a 15-year moratorium on uranium enrichment.
08:37Will that be enough for Israel?
08:39We say we trust the United States in their negotiations.
08:43It's obvious.
08:44And we know that they know the main objective is to make sure Iran
08:49does not have the capability of getting to a weapon.
08:52The enriched uranium, which is hidden in these very sophisticated tunnels
08:59in various sites, has to be taken out.
09:01And this is part of the negotiations.
09:03Now, the blockade comes because of the Iranian operation
09:09in the Hormuz Straits.
09:12Freedom of navigation is not recognized by Iran.
09:15They're attacking United Armour Emirates with huge missiles.
09:19They have cruise missiles on us, on Oman, all the way to Turkey.
09:25They're just sending it all over the region.
09:27It's a wake-up call for the entire region.
09:30What do you believe would happen if the regime were to fall?
09:33Will that mean the end of Hamas and Hezbollah?
09:36Well, I hope it will fall one day.
09:39I don't know when.
09:40I think the people are fed up.
09:41They're going through hell.
09:43And we have no conflict with the Iranian people.
09:46We respect the Iranian people.
09:48We respect their culture and we respect their history.
09:51But they were taken over by a very brutal dictatorship,
09:56which has no mercy for anybody.
09:58And one day it will happen, because that's what happens to dictators.
10:03And in my mind, if that regime falls and there's a change in Iran,
10:08the whole region will change.
10:10I would like to end this interview, of course, by talking about your visit.
10:13This is the first time Costa Rica is hosting a president of Israel.
10:16So what does your visit mean for both countries?
10:20This is an amazing visit.
10:22I always dreamt of getting to Costa Rica.
10:26We always learned about Costa Rica's affinity with the state of Israel.
10:30I was honored to be invited by President Chavez to honor the swearing-in of President Fernandez.
10:40I met with both.
10:42They're incredible friends of Israel and they've shown immense leadership.
10:46I met with Foreign Minister Tobar.
10:49We also discussed the free trade agreement.
10:52And I believe now it's a golden opportunity to triple the amount of business and trade between the countries
10:59for the benefit of the nations in so many fields.
11:02You have an incredible nation.
11:04We have an incredible nation.
11:05We share so many things.
11:07from high-end technology to agriculture and science and what's not.
11:14Everything is on the table.
11:15All we need now is business delegations, visits of ministers, and the sky is the limit, really.
11:23And there is so much to do together and a lot of love between the peoples.
11:28Thank you very much, Mr. President, for speaking with us.
11:30Días después de conversar con el presidente de Israel, Isaac Herzog,
11:34conversamos con Nicolás Bueglin, uno de los académicos más críticos al accionar israelí
11:39y quien cuestiona el acuerdo comercial firmado entre ambos países.
11:43Don Nicolás, ¿cómo considera usted la posición de Costa Rica con relación a lo ocurrido en Gaza
11:48y la operación actual en Irán?
11:51Sí, Costa Rica está mostrando una cara que no se le conocía.
11:56En la medida en que ha sido incapaz en más de dos años de condenar el genocidio que se está
12:01viviendo en Gaza,
12:02uno podría esperar de un país como Costa Rica, que le ha dado tanto al derecho internacional,
12:08un país que le ha dado tanto también a todo lo que tiene que ver con la justicia internacional,
12:13el respeto al derecho internacional, uno hubiese esperado una posición mucho más enérgica
12:18que esos tibios comunicados, creo que hay dos o tres, en los cuales ni siquiera se menciona a Israel.
12:26Costa Rica expresa su profunda preocupación por el bombardeo de un campo en Rafá,
12:34pero sin nunca mencionar al ejército de Israel.
12:38Le hago la misma pregunta que le hice al presidente de Israel con relación a la postura que existe
12:44de que Israel excedió al derecho de legítima defensa.
12:48El argumento de la legítima defensa, desde julio del 2004, la Corte Internacional de Justicia lo aclaró.
12:56No aplica cuando Israel realiza acciones en el territorio palestino ocupado.
13:04Es que, Nicolás, nosotros no estamos ocupando Gaza, no hay soldados israelíes en Gaza,
13:09entonces no nos venga con el tema de la ocupación.
13:12Eso la Corte Internacional de Justicia también ya lo ha dicho a Israel.
13:16El hecho de cercar un territorio, el hecho de que en ese territorio entra y sale únicamente
13:23lo que Israel autoriza a que entre y que sale.
13:27El hecho de que la población misma tiene que pedir permiso para salir de Gaza
13:31y para poder volver a entrar en Gaza, califica perfectamente como una ocupación.
13:37¿Cuál era entonces, desde su punto de vista, el accionar correcto que tenía que tener Israel
13:42después de que jamás, pues ya sabemos que ingresó, mató, violó, secuestró mujeres, familias?
13:50¿Qué debía hacer Israel en ese contexto?
13:52Vivimos en una civilización en la cual un crimen, por más horruendo sea, por más abominable,
14:03no justifica la comisión de otro crimen.
14:09Igual o, si queremos entrar en números, multiplicar por 70,
14:14si hablamos de más o menos 1.100, 1.200 víctimas israelíes,
14:18ahorita estamos a 74.000 víctimas del lado palestino en Gaza.
14:21Ahora bien, don Nicolás, ¿en medio de todo este contexto
14:24era un momento válido para firmar un tratado de libre comercio con Israel?
14:28El TLC con Costa Rica, pues es parte de esa operación de comunicación
14:34tendiente a hacernos creer que con Israel se puede tener relaciones normales,
14:40hacer comercio, intercambiar universidades y tener relaciones de tú a tú como cualquier estado.
14:45A esas personas que he escuchado salir con ese argumento en Comex, en Cinde, en Procomex,
14:53les digo lo siguiente, si están tan interesados en hacer comercio con personas
14:59que son buscadas por la Corte Penal Internacional,
15:02hagan un tratado de libre comercio con Rusia,
15:04son 170 millones de consumidores, frente a los humildes 7 millones de israelíes.
15:12El comercio se enmarca en una relación con estados que comparten, ¿qué?
15:17Los mismos valores, los mismos principios.
15:21Costa Rica, ¿acaso tiene un TLC con Irán?
15:25Son 94 millones de consumidores, ¿no?
15:28¿Por qué? Pues porque no comulgamos con la forma de gobierno que tiene Irán.
15:35Pues vuelvo a la misma pregunta, ¿realmente Costa Rica considera que se puede hacer negocios
15:41con semejante gobierno?
15:44Don Nicolás, muchas gracias por haber estado con nosotros.
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