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00:02This interview with Phil Rizzuto took place on June 12th, 1993, at Milwaukee County Stadium.
00:12The interviewer is Larry Baldessaro.
00:24Phil Rizzuto, June 12th, 1993, and why don't we start by talking a little bit about your
00:32family background, where your folks came from and when they came to the States.
00:36Well, naturally, they're from Italy and from a little place called Calabria, and the province
00:50was Cosenza, and all my relatives were on both my mother and father's side, came from there.
00:59And then when they did migrate to the United States, it was amazing.
01:06They all moved in these, like, three family houses, but they were connected to each other,
01:13and with a little alleyway and a backyard, and everybody would come out.
01:18Oh, that was one of the greatest times of my life, because they played, they all played
01:23musical instruments, the mandolin, and they'd sing, and then they'd tell stories in Italian,
01:32and they'd make wine, and they'd, oh, gee, I mean, that was, as long as there was food
01:38on the table, everybody was happy.
01:41Now they came to New York?
01:42Yes, they came to New York, yes.
01:44Do you know when they came over?
01:47Uh, well, let's see.
01:51I was born in 1917, and I had two sisters older than myself.
01:59Every, all of us were born here, so they came over, it had to be, let's see, I don't know,
02:09I shouldn't know the exact date, but I just never thought of it, about when they came over.
02:15It had to be 1912, because my sisters are both older than myself.
02:22I'm the, my one older sister, then the next one, then me.
02:25I was the third in line, so it couldn't have been more than a year or two at the most
02:29apart.
02:31So if I was born in 1917, and, say, five years, 1912, it'd be pretty safe to say right around
02:38there.
02:38Mm-hmm.
02:39Do you know why they came to New York?
02:41Were there other family members already there?
02:43Well, because there were family members there, but also because they, the rest of them all came together.
02:50They had gotten together over there and decided to come over, and, uh,
02:55there was a lot better then, even though it was tough then, than it is now,
03:01when you see these things happening to people, like that boat that capsized, that, with all the Chinese on it.
03:08You know, I understand, deviate just a little bit, you don't have to use this,
03:11but they have people that go to these different countries now,
03:15and they try to sell the natives of the country they go to on the idea that everybody in America
03:24has two cars and two television sets, and they make it sound, you know, like the old days,
03:31that the streets are paved with gold, and then they get them here, and they put them in those sweatshops,
03:36and they, you know, it's terrible, really terrible.
03:38My relatives happened to be a lot luckier than that.
03:41They were able to come here and do what they knew how to do.
03:46What did you dare do when you first came?
03:48They were laborers.
03:49They built homes, they built garages, they built sidewalks, they built, and, uh...
03:57In New York City.
03:58In New York City, and, uh, out in Long Island, and, uh, all around.
04:04And then my father was very fortunate somehow, one of the men he met, I don't know how it happened.
04:13I was still going to school, high school at the time, and he got a job as a modeman on
04:21a trolley car.
04:23And my mother was so happy because he didn't have to, uh, uh, travel to all these distant places and
04:30stay away, uh, for a lot of nights.
04:32You know, when they were building something, you...
04:33Because if you built, like, twenty miles away, it would take you four or five hours to get there.
04:38They didn't have the highways that they had now.
04:40Right.
04:41So she was very happy, and, uh, he had that for, uh, until the trolley cars went out of, uh,
04:51you know, became extinct.
04:53And I think that's the biggest mistake all these cities made, was taking up the trolley cars, the tracks, and
04:59way to get around.
05:00Now they could really use them with all the cars and all the traffic, you know.
05:05And then he, uh, he ended up, uh, working down the docks, not as a longshoreman, but as, um, a
05:16sort of security and, um, you know, uh, you wouldn't call him a watchman, but anyway, it was not, it's
05:28a job that he, at his age, was just perfect for him.
05:32A lot of people to talk to, and, of course, the, the ships that went to Italy and came back,
05:36he would help, help be one of the interpreters when they ever needed him.
05:41What are, um, some of your earliest childhood memories?
05:46Well, the ones I told you about in the backyard, but I, I wouldn't miss one of those evenings where
05:52they would sing.
05:53And, uh, and in those days, it was fairly easy to pick up the Italian line, because everybody talked Italian,
06:00uh, when they first came over.
06:05And, until, oh, maybe after they'd been here about ten years.
06:11And, uh, you know, you picked up so much that way, and, uh, you know, never any arguments, always saying,
06:17talking, and, and the kids, we were my cousins, we had a lot of them, we, but we, right on
06:23the street, in those days, we used to play right on the street, all the ball game, all the games
06:26you could think of.
06:27Touch football, touch football, punch ball, another game that a lot of people don't know about out in the Midwest,
06:34and then box ball was another one, you'd get the four corners, and a guy would pitch with English on
06:42it, and you'd slap grounders, and triangle ball, you needed less space, I mean, any kind of game.
06:48We used to play a game, uh, we used to play a game, uh, with, uh, a tennis racket and
06:53a tennis ball, and, uh, you had to keep it in, within the streets, you could hit it as high
06:59and far as you want, you could hit those hard skip grounders, and, I tell you, it was great, it
07:04was the greatest experience, the hand and eye coordination of all those games, you played, and then my mother, to
07:10keep from breaking windows, she would get a cover of an old baseball, and we would, our baseballs would wear
07:17out in the street,
07:18the streets, and they didn't have many baseball fields in her arm, and, uh, she'd, she'd take and stuff it
07:25with rags, and then sew it back up again, and we'd play with that, and you could throw curves, and
07:30throw, you know, and, just all those things you never realize, but I'm, I'm sure they helped, uh, helped me
07:37in my hand-eye coordination, and helped me, uh, do as well as I did when I was a kid,
07:43and later on.
07:44Was your first language Italian?
07:47No, I spoke English because my mother and father spoke English, they had, they had learned English, and they wanted
07:53me, they spoke English in the house all the time.
07:56So, they were encouraging you to speak English?
07:58Oh, yeah, oh, yeah.
07:59They wanted you to become American?
08:01Yes, the, the, it's changed a lot now, you know, a lot of the people now, that, uh, come over
08:07from the other side, whether they be Italian, or, uh, German, or Chinese, they want their children to learn their
08:14language first,
08:16and then they know when they go to school, they're going to learn English, so they have two languages, this
08:21way, if they, uh, learn to speak English right away, they'll forget their, their language.
08:27Yeah.
08:28And, uh, they wanted me to keep that, which I think is pretty smart.
08:31So, your folks were encouraging you to speak English, uh, did you sense that they felt it was better to
08:38be American, to become American, or did they retain their heritage?
08:47Yes, but they knew that in school it would be difficult for me, if, uh, you know, the kids, if
08:54I wanted something, and I, and I just spoke Italian mostly, just a few words in English, and, uh, it
09:00worked out for them best, because they still kept, you know, with all the relatives right there, living together, they
09:06still got their, their Italian in more than enough.
09:09So, you picked up some of the Italians, just from being around the relatives?
09:13Yeah, I picked up a lot, but then, when I moved, and got married, I didn't, I didn't move from,
09:19uh, that section until I got married, and then when I went to, to New Jersey, uh, I lost that,
09:26uh, daily communication.
09:28And they, it's amazing how soon you can, you can forget, uh, yeah.
09:37Well, when you were a kid, did you ever have a sense that there was something embarrassing or wrong about
09:44being Italian, that, uh...
09:45No, no way.
09:48No way.
09:49I remember, even though my father used to tell me stories, and this is way back then, you know, about
09:56the black hand.
09:56Mm-hmm.
09:58And, uh, it was never, they never called the Mafia in those days.
10:02It might have been in Sicily, where supposedly it all started, but, you know, everybody says there's no such thing
10:08as the Mafia.
10:10But, uh, anyway, but the black hand was, was similar to that, because they were very influential and big, they
10:17had to do, and then, if, if they ever painted a black hand or put a hand there and made
10:24it black, then you were gone.
10:26You, well, you know, kind of scary.
10:31I don't know if my father did that just to scare me to stay on the straight and narrow.
10:34Mm-hmm.
10:36But you had the sense that your folks were proud to be Italian.
10:40Oh, yes.
10:41And they also, uh, in those days, a pool hall was not as elegant as it is now, you know.
10:50Yeah.
10:50And now the women go and they're plush, but then it was like not a den of iniquity either, but,
10:55uh, it was a place that was smoky and, uh, people drank there.
11:00And so, and he knew we liked to shoot pool, my brother and I, and he brought us a pool
11:05table, a regulation-sized pool table, and put it down in the basement.
11:09And then we had kids across the street who did the same thing, their parents, and they were German, and
11:14then we had an Irish family.
11:16That whole block happened.
11:18I was so lucky.
11:19They all played sports, all different sports.
11:21But it wasn't-
11:22Touch football.
11:23Exclusively in Italian.
11:23Oh, no.
11:25Our little area, our little niche was all Italian.
11:28And then across the street they had prevalent Germans, and then the Irish, it was just a great mixture of
11:35nationalities.
11:36This was in Brooklyn?
11:38Yeah.
11:38In Brooklyn?
11:39Yeah.
11:39Great mixture.
11:41Do you remember what part of Brooklyn?
11:42Ridgewood, the Ridgewood section of Brooklyn.
11:46And these ethnic groups, German, Irish, Italian, got along well?
11:50Oh, very well.
11:51Right.
11:52Very well.
11:52All the parents and all the kids.
11:56But it wasn't like socializing.
11:58It was just that you ran into one in the barbershop or the butcher shop.
12:05As far as socializing, you had your extended family, I assume?
12:09Oh, yeah.
12:09A lot of cousins and so on?
12:11Oh, yes.
12:12Loaded.
12:13And there were so many, they all couldn't fit in that one little establishment place that we had.
12:19And the rest were scattered around in areas maybe half a mile away.
12:25They were all pretty close together.
12:27Pretty bunched up, yeah.
12:28As you look back, did you think that you were deprived economically?
12:34Never, never gave it a thought.
12:36I mean, we never asked for or wanted things like the kids today.
12:44You know, they get it so easily.
12:46But I mean, like I said, it was always food on the table.
12:49And we were out playing ball every day with it.
12:51In the baseball season, we'd play baseball.
12:53And in the football season, we'd play football.
12:55And then in between, we'd play all those games on the street.
12:59And ring olivio and steal the white flag and kick the can.
13:03All those games that the kids, I don't know whether they know about them.
13:07Boy, we never sat still.
13:09And then we'd come in and eat, go out and play.
13:11And you could play box ball and triangle ball under the street lights right on that four corners.
13:19That made it great.
13:20So it was always activity, always activity.
13:24And we formed teams and we would have to fight, not fight, but get up early to get to the
13:31ball,
13:32to a field like they had three or four fields where you need a permit to play on.
13:37The first ones there had to play on it.
13:40But you didn't think anything of it, you know.
13:43It was just great getting out there.
13:44I never had uniforms when we were kids.
13:47But we'd beat a lot of teams that had uniforms.
13:50So you were playing hardball from an early age, not just in the streets.
13:54Oh yeah, very early.
13:55No, very early age.
13:57As a matter of fact, I would get frustrated quite often because in those days, the way they'd
14:04pick teams to play, they'd have two captains and they'd flip a coin, whoever won the coin.
14:13He'd have the first pick from all of us standing around, I'll take him, I'll take him.
14:17Sure.
14:20More than 50% of the time, nobody would pick me.
14:23You know, because I was so small and I'd have to wait.
14:27And if somebody had to leave or something, I'd get to play an inning or two.
14:32And then gradually, you know, they saw that I could really, you know, I could play, I could do things
14:36that they didn't think I could do.
14:37These were kids pretty much your own age?
14:39Yeah, they were my own age, but they were all bigger than myself, which is natural.
14:45Did they put you in right field?
14:48They tried to put me in right field, but I've always wanted to be an infielder, for some reason.
14:57But I did play the outfield a lot, as a matter of fact, an awful lot now that you bring
15:02that up.
15:02The last kid picked was the right fielder.
15:03That's why they stick it, because they figured nobody could hit out, you don't get that many hit out there.
15:07So, you started playing just pick-up games.
15:11Yeah.
15:11When did you start playing in a more organized sense?
15:15When I went to high school.
15:18I tried out for the team, and I made the team.
15:26Richmond Hill High School.
15:28Richmond?
15:29Richmond.
15:30Richmond.
15:30Richmond.
15:31Which one?
15:34Still in Brooklyn, obviously.
15:35No, that was not in Brooklyn.
15:37That was across the line, because my father had the trolley car then.
15:40The car?
15:41And because he had the trolley car, I was able to get free rides to the school, which
15:46was like about a mile and a half from the house.
15:50And we were allowed to go there, because the other schools were crowded in the Brooklyn section
15:54we lived in.
15:56And it was in a place called, well Richmond Hill was the name of the area too.
16:02And it was a big park there, Forest Park, which was a beautiful park.
16:08They had a golf course, and they had baseball fields, and football fields.
16:13And it was like the parade grounds, which was a big place in Brooklyn.
16:18They have all these, and now like Central Park is.
16:23So, that was my first sense of organized ball in high school.
16:29And then in the summers, we had a club like the Wayne Athletic Club, we called it.
16:38We had chipped in, we bought uniforms, and we would play other teams with uniforms and
16:45play, not supposed to, but we'd play for like $5 a man a game.
16:49And we'd pass the hat on, you know, get money that way.
16:55And it was pretty good and pretty, I mean it was really pretty good ball.
16:59And then it progressed each year.
17:04One of the great stories is we won our division championship, and we played the championship
17:10game for the PSAL championship at Ebbets Field.
17:15And what a thrill that was, oh my gosh.
17:18And I'll never forget, my high school coach was a little guy too.
17:24And later on, I told you he was the one that got me started in thinking about a professional
17:29career, because he tried to become one.
17:31But in that game, that was my first, I was a freshman then.
17:35Freshman in high school?
17:36In high school.
17:37And he said, I don't want you to swing at any pitches.
17:40I mean, I was really, I wasn't even five foot tall then.
17:43Not quite five feet tall.
17:47And sure enough, I walked and I could run like hell.
17:50I'd steal second, I'd steal third, and that's why he said, don't swing.
17:54And it was like, tie score.
17:57And next to last inning, I'm coming up to bat, and somehow the guy got two quick strikes
18:05at me.
18:07So, I knew I had a swinging ball.
18:09And the next pitch, I swung and fouled it, and it hit the umpire right in the Adam's
18:14apple, and he almost died.
18:17I mean, it was scary.
18:20And I figured, well, maybe that's why he doesn't want me to swing at the ball.
18:23But that was awful.
18:27And we ended up winning the game.
18:30And then I grew a couple inches, and I was playing on these teams on the side.
18:35And then, just before my last year of high school, I got to play with a semi-pro team.
18:46And I mean, that was better than any minor league experience I had.
18:49I batted against Satchel Paige, the House of David, the Black Yankees, all those guys,
18:54a lot of them in the Hall of Fame.
18:56And they were, I mean, and don't forget, we played under portable lights in our day.
19:01Now, portable lights are like in here, trying to hit off Satchel Paige, who was in his
19:05prime then.
19:06This is 1936 and 1937.
19:10No, not 37, 36 and 35.
19:14And these guys sometimes would play three games a day, because they went by plus.
19:19But what?
19:19I mean, great names, the House of David, the Black Yankees, the Royal Giants.
19:24Wow.
19:25Homestead Grays, oh.
19:26That's amazing.
19:28And you were still in high school.
19:30I was still in high school, which I had to play under an assumed name.
19:33Sure.
19:33And forfeit all those games.
19:36I used an Irish name to make sure that they...
19:39No kidding.
19:39Do you remember what you used?
19:41Yeah, I used Kennedy.
19:43Kennedy.
19:44Never knowing that later on.
19:46But I, you know, I had it, because that would have been a terrible thing.
19:50That's funny.
19:50That they found out.
19:54But I got...
19:55Well, I mean, that was some experience, and it helped me get through the minor leagues the
20:01first couple of years to...
20:02Because I knew the fundamentals of the game.
20:04These guys said, oh boy, we watched them play there.
20:06That's a real competition, yeah.
20:07Yeah.
20:08They knew how to play the game.
20:11And so many of them could have been in the big leagues.
20:13But because of the color line, you know what I mean.
20:16The Cuban All-Stars, they had...
20:20They had a great team, too.
20:22Also David was arrived with the beards.
20:25Right.
20:27So then did you sign right out of high school?
20:31Yeah, but I had a lot of tryouts first.
20:35Then the Red Sox...
20:37The first team I tried out was the Dodgers, and that's when I had the problems with Casey.
20:43Casey was managing...
20:44That was in 1937.
20:46I had just graduated from...
20:49That was 1936.
20:53Of course, in 1937 was my first year I went away.
20:57The Yankees signed me.
20:58But in 1936 we had these tryouts at Ebert's Field.
21:02It was not a...
21:03It was not a tryout like they have today.
21:06They line you up and they run from the right field foul line to the left field foul line.
21:09The first 50 they keep, and I was so fast.
21:12I was always one of the first 50.
21:13Then you get five swings and go out and field your position.
21:18And this kid that was trying to impress Casey...
21:21You know, who was there at the workout.
21:24He hit me right in the middle of the back with the first pitch.
21:27And I stiffened up and I couldn't hit.
21:31And I never forget Casey said,
21:33Hey kid, listen, you go out and get a shoeshine box.
21:35That's the only way you're going to make a living.
21:37You'll never make it in a big way.
21:40Then about a week later...
21:44My coach, high school coach, got me a tryout with the Giants.
21:47Bill Terry was the manager.
21:49Another Hall of Famer.
21:51And he didn't even let me work out.
21:54He just said, I'll let you stay and watch the game today.
21:57But we're looking for guys who can hit home runs.
22:00Because there were only eight teams in each league.
22:02And everybody wanted to be a big league ball player.
22:06And then the Red Sox.
22:09And they were going to sign me.
22:12But it was a very unusual thing.
22:17Because they had, they said they were looking at another kid.
22:20Because at this time I'm playing shortstop.
22:22This, I had played shortstop all through high school.
22:27And, uh...
22:29But in, with the way they see in them, I caught.
22:32I used to catch a lot of times without a mask.
22:35We didn't have a mask.
22:36I'd look at him and I didn't foul tip and hit me in the nose of the head.
22:39And I play outfield in the shortstop, third base.
22:42But then in high school he put me at shortstop.
22:45And I stayed there.
22:49And, uh...
22:50They had...
22:51The Red Sox had just signed...
22:53It said this kid lives in Louisville.
22:56He looks like a great name.
22:57It was Pee Wee.
22:57Pee Wee Reese.
22:58Yeah.
22:59So, it turned out...
23:01And I, geez, I wanted to play for the Red Sox.
23:04I heard about a short left field fence, you know, and all that.
23:07And...
23:07So, anyway...
23:09So, Pee Wee played with...
23:11Uh...
23:11And then I played against Pee Wee.
23:14Uh...
23:14When I was with Kansas City, he was with Louisville.
23:17I was at a Red Sox farm team.
23:19Oh, wow.
23:19But then the Dodgers bought him from Louisville.
23:21And so he became a Dodger.
23:24Uh...
23:25So, eventually I might have gone to the Red Sox, but...
23:28Who knows?
23:29So, you mean initially you would have preferred to be a Red Sox than a Yankee?
23:32Well, I never thought I'd get...
23:34Whoever thought that you could get with the Yankees, you know, you'd read about that.
23:37Oh!
23:38Dynasty.
23:39Geez.
23:42But, uh...
23:42Then the Yankees had the...
23:44They were the last ones and they had this...
23:47Unusual tryout for a full week.
23:50Every day you went to the ballpark and every day you played a game.
23:54Hmm.
23:54And different situations would come up.
23:57They'd ask you to bunt.
23:58They'd ask you to hit and run.
23:59Try to steal.
24:01And you'd play third, you'd play second, you'd play short.
24:05And I just happened to have a great week.
24:07I couldn't do anything wrong.
24:09So, they called me in.
24:12And they wanted to send me to Butler, Pennsylvania, which was the Yankee farm team.
24:17D-League.
24:17They had D-League now.
24:19They don't have anything like that now.
24:22And they wanted to give me, uh...
24:25Seventy dollars a month.
24:28Uh...
24:29Which would have been great in that time.
24:30That was a lot of money then.
24:32And I...
24:33I said, gee, I said, uh...
24:35I was working in, uh...
24:37Bush Terminal.
24:38Factory work.
24:39And I was getting, uh...
24:41Fifteen dollars a week.
24:43So, that was seventy-five dollars.
24:45No, it wasn't fifteen.
24:46That's sixty dollars.
24:47But I was home, you know.
24:49Right.
24:49So, I had to go away.
24:51So...
24:51He said, alright, look.
24:52We got another team in Bassett, Virginia.
24:55That's B-A-S-S-E-T-T.
24:59And they play a month longer, and we'll give you seventy-five dollars a month.
25:03Great.
25:05Now, I had never been away from home.
25:09And I'm gonna forget, when I had to leave to go there, uh...
25:15Uh...
25:15Like, we had a couple of weeks of, uh, train training, but you train right in the town where
25:20you...
25:21Because it was down south anyway.
25:24Uh...
25:24Uh...
25:25My father would...
25:26I totally read all these things about the blackie.
25:29He...
25:30Took a twenty...
25:31Because he didn't give you any money.
25:32No bonuses or anything.
25:34Uh...
25:34He penned a twenty dollar bill to my undershirt.
25:36Uh...
25:37Don't let anybody quit.
25:38We said...
25:39They send you in a train, but it...
25:41I don't forget, um...
26:06I got away from home.
26:08And I get off the train, and there's nothing there.
26:13I said, where the hell is the town?
26:17I mean, I had a little, uh...
26:19Uh...
26:20Veliso...
26:21You know...
26:22Cardboard Veliso was practically.
26:25And my glove, and my spikes, and...
26:27And then the train pulled away, and there was the town.
26:31There was a drug store, a, uh...
26:35A post office, and lunch, and a...
26:40Uh...
26:42A diner.
26:43Uh-huh.
26:43That was the whole town.
26:45The North had a movie theater, which was open, I think, one or two days a week.
26:52Oh...
26:52Can I believe it?
26:55And they only had, like, thirteen hundred people in the whole town.
27:00And it was very hilly.
27:02Oh, God, it was really hilly.
27:05And then they used to say, yeah, this is very unusual places.
27:07All the cows have...
27:09Their front legs are shorter than their back legs, so that they can climb.
27:13And I believe in them.
27:13I believe everything they told me, I believe.
27:16The city boy.
27:18Yeah, and, um...
27:21They, um...
27:27You know, the people were so nice, but I couldn't understand.
27:30They couldn't understand me, my Brooklyn accent.
27:32I couldn't understand them with their southern accent.
27:35Just going back just a second.
27:37What did you folks think about the idea of you wanting to...
27:40My mother was all for it, but my father was dead again.
27:42He wanted me to get a job, you know.
27:44My father was following his footsteps.
27:47You can't play baseball.
27:48You can't make a living playing baseball.
27:52But he didn't hold me back, you know, because he knew my mother really wanted me to go.
27:57Why do you think she was, uh...
27:59Thank goodness.
27:59I don't know.
28:00She was a little more, uh...
28:03You know, she read a lot more than my father, because my father had to work hard, and he didn't
28:07have too much time for him.
28:08I mean, she read a lot, and she kind of knew what was going on, and what, uh...
28:13The kids...
28:14Give the kids a chance to get away and be on their own and see what they can do.
28:18When did you first start thinking you wanted to do this?
28:21Oh, I always wanted to be a boy...
28:23Are you kidding?
28:24I was like the kids today who collect cards, only they didn't have cards then.
28:28I mean, I read every line score and every game, and, uh...
28:33I used to make little crystal sets, and you'd be able to get, uh...
28:37You know, some of them...
28:39There were not many games were broadcast on radio, but...
28:42The ones that were, I'd be able to...
28:44I even got games from up in Boston one time.
28:46That's how I knew...
28:47I knew the wall in Fenway was short, because...
28:50I'd hear, um...
28:52There's a line drive off the left field wall, and it's a single.
28:55I said, how could I...
28:57I said, that guy can't run or something, you know?
29:00And then...
29:01Then...
29:01One of the announcers explained just how far it was, and the kind of fence it was...
29:05Short, but high.
29:09And, uh...
29:10I always wanted to be a ball player, and actually, I...
29:14Wake up in a cold sweat sometimes, thinking, had I not been a ball player, what would I have been?
29:19Mm-hmm.
29:20I was not...
29:23One of the smart kids in school, because I didn't...
29:25Like, you know, I'm always thinking, oh boy, when we get out of school, I'll play ball.
29:29And I...
29:30I...
29:30Just enough to get...
29:31You had to pass...
29:33All your subjects, to be eligible to play on the team.
29:36And I'd do that, but I'd pass with 65.
29:39I got a 70, it was...
29:40And 65 was passing.
29:43And I'd just do enough to...
29:45Which was bad, but...
29:46Like I said...
29:47Did you want to be a Yankee when you were a kid?
29:49I mean...
29:49No, I was a Dodger fan.
29:51You were a Dodger fan.
29:51You were a Dodger fan.
29:52You had to be a Dodger fan.
29:55Yeah, the Yankees were the furthest thing from my mind.
29:58Oh, gee.
29:59And were there any ball players that...
30:02Like, what we call today, role models, that you idolized?
30:07Oh, yeah.
30:09Um...
30:09It's strange, I idolized more people on the Yankees, only because they were more well-known,
30:14and they were winning at that time, and the Dodgers were not.
30:16The Dodgers hadn't won in so long.
30:19Uh...
30:20And, I mean...
30:21Uh...
30:22You know, the name, Frank Cresetti, right away, uh...
30:25You know, stepped with me.
30:27Joe DiMaggio.
30:32Uh...
30:32Of course, naturally, Babe Ruth and Will Gehrig.
30:34I mean, my uncle used to take me...
30:36See, my uncle was really good to me.
30:38He used to take me to see those great ball players.
30:41I saw Ruth and Gehrig and, uh...
30:45Dickey and Red Ruffing and all those guys way back.
30:48And then he'd take me to the Polo Grounds.
30:50I saw the Giants with Bill Terry and Dick Bartell and all those great players.
30:54And then he took me to Evers Field to see the Dodgers.
30:58And, uh...
30:59They had some outstanding players.
31:01You know, Glenn Wright, they had for a while.
31:04They got him from Pittsburgh, the great shortstop.
31:06Al Lopez caught for them.
31:08Van Lingle Mungo was one of their pitchers.
31:10A great pitcher.
31:11And then I got to, you know, see these guys.
31:15And then I'd read about them and it made it a lot more interesting.
31:21Well, so now, your rookie year is 41.
31:2441, yeah.
31:25You come up to the Yankees.
31:26And, of course, 41 is one of the great years of baseball history.
31:29Oh, my gosh.
31:29Everything.
31:30Jeez, that was unbelievable.
31:31You know, with DeMage hitting 56 straight games and Williams hitting over 400.
31:40And that's when I saw my first real-life president.
31:43We opened in Washington.
31:44The Yankees used to always open in Washington.
31:47And the history of it was that the president would throw out the first ball.
31:54Right.
31:55And every year, whoever was president, it was a ritual.
31:58I mean, and DeMage told me, I said, now, look, don't get too close because people get spiked.
32:03You know, they die for that souvenir.
32:06The president throws the ball out.
32:08They had to help Roosevelt stand up, you know.
32:11And he threw the ball and everybody dies for it.
32:13These monsters.
32:15I mean, I didn't come close to it, but I tried.
32:18And just to see the president, you know, I never thought I'd ever see a live president.
32:24Plus the fact that I had played in Norfolk, Virginia.
32:28It was the Piedmont League, my second year in professional ball.
32:32I was 18.
32:36And the whole contingent from Norfolk came across.
32:39I met wonderful friends there, Italian friends.
32:42As a matter of fact, the barber from Norfolk, I lived in his home.
32:49You know, you lived in boarding, they were what they called boarding houses.
32:52They weren't boarding houses, but you lived there and you'd pay them rent and you'd feed them.
32:56And he was my best man at the wedding when I got married.
32:59Yeah, that's how we'd go back.
33:01I'd go back to Norfolk.
33:02And they came up with the contingent.
33:05Jerry Pretty was with the Yankees, too.
33:08And he had played with me at Norfolk.
33:09And they gave us gifts, you know.
33:12And here it's opening day and at home plate they're giving us gifts to rookies.
33:17This was...
33:1841.
33:19Norfolk was a triple A?
33:20No.
33:21A B.
33:22So you jumped from B?
33:23No, no.
33:24But I had played there.
33:25Okay.
33:26So your first year was in Bassett, right.
33:28Then Norfolk.
33:30I skipped C.
33:31I went from D to B.
33:32Then I skipped A and double A and went to triple A to Kansas City.
33:38Okay, see.
33:38And then I played two years there and then came for me.
33:40I played four years in the minors.
33:42But they all came up, you know, because I had made so many friends down there.
33:49And that was a big thrill.
33:50So do you remember your first time at the plate?
33:53Oh, I was so...
33:53And Dutch Leonard was pitching.
33:55And I know he was a knuckle, great knuckleball pitcher.
33:59Who I got to know real well later on, but...
34:03Because in those days you played each team maybe 20 times, you know?
34:07There were just eight teams in the league.
34:09And you had to play 154 games.
34:14But he threw me a knuckleball and I had made up my mind I was going to swing no matter
34:18where.
34:18And I could swear I hit it on one bounce and ground it out.
34:21And I was knuckle.
34:22My knees were shaking.
34:23And Dickey had warned me.
34:24He said, listen, he said, this...
34:26You know, right now you might feel relaxed.
34:28He said, but you're going to have butterflies, but don't...
34:31If you don't have butterflies, you're not a good ball player.
34:33He had told me that many to more than once.
34:35And during the World Series, he said the same thing.
34:38He said, as soon as that's over and you get your first chance in the field,
34:42first time at bat, it'll go away.
34:43And sure enough, it did.
34:45How did the veterans treat you as a rookie?
34:47At that time, it was all right.
34:49But prior to that, in spring training, I got a rough time,
34:52because Corsetti was one of the big favorites and a great guy.
34:56And here I was becoming a fresh rookie, coming out trying to take his job.
35:00And he was so well-liked by the players.
35:03And...
35:04But yet, if it hadn't been for Corsetti, I would have looked like a bum in that series,
35:08because Washington Senators had three left-hand hitters
35:13who I didn't know where they hit.
35:14And he said, now look, he said, you watch me in the dugout.
35:17He said, now I'll move you.
35:19And he moved me towards third base.
35:21And I said, why is he trying to make me look bad?
35:24And every one of them hit towards left field.
35:27They were not pull hitters.
35:29He said, yeah, he made me look great.
35:30I said, he's one of them.
35:32And since then, he became great for it.
35:33He said, here's a guy whose job I'm trying to take.
35:35You took his job.
35:36Yeah.
35:38And obviously, you won the starting job in spring training.
35:41Yeah.
35:41How old was Corsetti at the time?
35:43He wasn't that old.
35:44He wasn't that old.
35:45He came up in 33, and this was 41.
35:50So it was only eight years later, you know.
35:54But he hadn't hit.
35:56He had a bad year hitting that time.
35:58Finished 100 and something.
35:59But, and then he did that.
36:02And every team we played, he would, you know, I didn't know the guys.
36:07I didn't know Pete.
36:08And he knew them like, you know what, had a book on them.
36:12He positioned me in them and I got to know them.
36:15But I still see the Crow every time we go out to the west coast and I write to him
36:19and call
36:21him on the phone once in a while.
36:22What about your first appearance at Yankee Stadium when the folks there?
36:26Oh, this year, that was even more nervous.
36:28And I didn't get a hit that time either.
36:31I was very nervous.
36:33Your dad must have been.
36:35He was proud.
36:36He was telling everybody, yeah, that he taught me how to play ball.
36:42So, yeah, it was great.
36:47That year was, you know, a phenomenal year.
36:49I think we clinched the pad by the 4th of July.
36:52It was a, not really, but I think we won like 16 or 17 games.
36:59I mean, that's a, here you are a rookie and you're on this, one of the great teams.
37:04Oh, yeah, that was a great team.
37:06Henrik Kelland, imagine the outfield.
37:08Dickey Katchen and Ralph and Gordon.
37:11And the pitching staff.
37:14What names are old.
37:15We had so many great pitchers, nobody won more than 15 games.
37:20They'd only pitch once a week all the time.
37:23And you had a good, what, 307?
37:26Yeah, 307, yeah.
37:29And, uh, so then, then I fit in.
37:33Then they took me in as one of the members.
37:36Charlie Kelland, he was, he just passed away last year.
37:40Mm-hmm.
37:41Mm-hmm.
37:44But I wouldn't trade it for all the money in the world.
37:46I had great, great memories.
37:50Then you, uh, you went into the service 43 through 45, like so many others.
37:56Yeah, three years I lost, yeah.
37:58And then you came back and the team pretty much picked up.
38:01Not right, not the first year.
38:02Well, the White Sox won the 46 pennant.
38:05Said everybody thought, none of us thought we'd ever get it back again.
38:09And, you know, you're not used to seeing the fastballs and the curves.
38:13And, as a matter of fact, it was a great story.
38:16It'd take too long to tell you.
38:17But that's when they started trying to get the Mexican League started.
38:21Oh, yeah.
38:22And, uh, Sternweiss and I were two, the ones instrumental in, in almost breaking up their
38:28raid on the American players.
38:30They came to George and I, and, uh, they, they had a cabin, a big Cadillac they drove up
38:40in the Pasquale brothers.
38:42They had guns, they had guns and a holster.
38:44And they'd be pulled under the bridge by Yankee Stadium under the, the elevator train.
38:50And they'd whip out $10,000 a piece they wanted to give us.
38:53They said, you come to, to Mexico with us?
38:56Come right now.
38:57They said, call Joe McCarthy from, from Mexico.
39:01And, oh, I said, I can't, you know, can't do it.
39:04I haven't got, so they said, well, we want to eat, get your wives.
39:08We played all day ball.
39:10And, you know, they said, get your wives.
39:12And they were staying at the Waldorf Astoria.
39:14Oh, I never thought we'd ever get to the Waldorf Astoria.
39:18So, George and his wife and my wife and I, we went, after we got home, we got them and
39:23drove in.
39:24He lived near me in Jersey then.
39:27And we drove, drove into New York, met them at the Waldorf Astoria.
39:31And they wined and dined us.
39:33And, of course, in those days, right after the war, you couldn't get a car.
39:37You couldn't get ties.
39:38The girls couldn't get nylons or couldn't get butter.
39:42You couldn't get anything.
39:43They had everything.
39:45They were never going to set us up with an apartment building.
39:48And, I mean, it all turned sour.
39:51And I was ready to go.
39:53And so was George.
39:54And we both, because they wanted to give us more money than what the Yankees were giving us.
39:58Plus the apartment building.
39:59But then, the thing that, the only way we were lucky was they still wanted us to go
40:04and not tell McCarthy.
40:06And neither one of us could do it.
40:10And, unbeknownst to us and to them, they had that room bug, their room, when we went upstairs
40:15to talk about it.
40:16And they had the contract on it.
40:17So we didn't sign.
40:18Luckily, we didn't sign it, but we talked.
40:20And then, they heard that and they got an injunction against the Pasquals.
40:25They couldn't leave the country until they appeared before.
40:30So, they just slipped out of the, quietly and we, George and I were suspended by Larry
40:39McPhail, who owned the club at that time.
40:43He got it from, who did he get it from?
40:50Jacob Rupert?
40:51No, Adele Webb and Dan Topping.
40:53No, he didn't get it from Webb and Topping.
40:56Webb and Topping got it from him.
40:57He came later.
40:58He came later.
40:59Was it Jacob Rupert?
41:02I guess it was from the Rupert family, yeah.
41:04Because this was after the war.
41:05Rupert had it in my first two years.
41:07And then when I got in the service, I kind of lost it.
41:09But then McPhail had it in 46, yeah.
41:12And he suspended George and I because we wouldn't, didn't want to appear as a witness against
41:19Pasquals.
41:19We told him, he said, he's trying to give us, you know, money.
41:23Well, I had gone to war and they froze my salary.
41:25They were giving me what they gave me in 42.
41:30And, but then they, the Pasquals left and they rescinded and put us back on the ankle.
41:38As a matter of fact, it gave us a little bit of a raise.
41:42So now, did you get married before you started playing pro ball?
41:47No, I got married, no.
41:49I was, I got married while I was in the service.
41:52I, I married my wife in 1943.
41:55I played 41 and 42 and then got married in 43 while I was in Norfolk, Virginia taking, going
42:02through boot camp.
42:05Where did you meet your wife?
42:08I met her through Joe DiMaggio.
42:10That's the, Joe, I was supposed to go to a communion breakfast and my wife's father was
42:17the chairman of that, who I didn't know.
42:19I had never been to Norfolk before.
42:21And that day Joe's baby was born.
42:23His only child was born.
42:25And he called me up and says, I got to go to the hospital.
42:28You know, my first child, he said, I got to be there.
42:31I said, yes, sir.
42:31Cause you got to fill in for me.
42:33I said, oh, here's a guy.
42:36In Newark, he was idolized.
42:37They had a big Italian population.
42:39And he used to tell me about, they gave him diamond rings.
42:43And he says, you got to fill in for me because, and I said, Joe, they'll, they'll shoot me.
42:48They'll, they'll run me out of time.
42:50He was hitting 56 through eight games.
42:52He was the most valuable player in the American League.
42:56And I'm a rookie and, you know, and they didn't know who I was.
43:00And sure enough, I got over there and oh man, cold, icy silence.
43:03I was, holy God.
43:05So this was in 41.
43:06In 41.
43:09I guess it was November of 41.
43:13Or the end of October.
43:15And I, I had never given a speech before.
43:19You know, I, and I was lousy as that.
43:21But oh, then no applause.
43:24And I mean, some of them actually booed when they announced that.
43:28Because it happened on that day.
43:31And there was no time for them to get, you know, everybody expecting to see DiMaggio and I work.
43:38Why?
43:39But anyway, then, then he, my, my father-in-law, who came later, became my father-in-law, saw how
43:45uncomfortable I was.
43:46He said, come on.
43:47He said, take you home, get you a cup of coffee and then you, you relax.
43:50I said, it's a shame.
43:52It was.
43:53See, DiMaggio knew my wife's family because my wife's sister used to go with a friend of DiMaggio's.
43:58Okay.
43:59And so he'd go over there and eat once in a while.
44:02They were Italian?
44:03Yeah, they were Italian, yeah.
44:05No, not my wife.
44:06No.
44:07No.
44:07The one that her sister went with was Italian.
44:12And he became, he was like Joe's, would take Joe every place, drive them places and make
44:18arrangements for him for everything.
44:21And while I was there having a cup of coffee, I saw this vision come down the stairs and
44:27I, you know, I hate to say in the movies, love at first sight.
44:31It was unbelievable.
44:31No.
44:32I had never gone with a girl.
44:33I never dated a girl.
44:35Is that right?
44:36Yeah.
44:36Holy cow.
44:38I, I was struck.
44:41That's a great story.
44:42I'd come over every night and I'd take her out to dinner and I asked her to marry me after
44:51it was, don't forget this is 41, so it was in November.
44:58Yeah, it was in November because, towards the end of November as a matter of fact, because
45:05I asked her to marry me after I had Winder and Diner in the early part of November.
45:11I stayed over there and went back and forth, driving back and forth from Brooklyn to Newark.
45:17And I asked her to marry me and she said no.
45:21Just like that.
45:22I mean, I had taken this beautiful restaurant they were playing Impossible by Perry Como's
45:28and oh, jeez.
45:31And I, I got so mad.
45:35I, I, I got in my car and drove to Norfolk, Virginia to see these, these people, these,
45:42you know, who I knew so well and because I used to go down there after each year anyway.
45:46The barber.
45:47The barber.
45:49The barber.
45:49And I'm down there and December came and if you know what happened December 7th, right?
45:55Hmm.
45:56I get a call from my mother.
45:59She knew I was down there because I called her and told her where I was.
46:02And my Lefty Gomez, I'd call my mother and he, I used to, you know, he was really a great
46:08guy and been kidded everybody.
46:10But good son.
46:11The kid told my mother, you better, he says, you, where's Phil?
46:15And she said, oh, he's down in Norfolk, Virginia.
46:17And he said, well, you better get him back.
46:18He says, the Japs are right outside of the Brooklyn Navy Yard.
46:21And my mother believed him.
46:22She called me up, get home.
46:24Get, as if I could do anything.
46:26But anyway, I came home and I called her and we went out again.
46:32And in January, I asked her again.
46:34She said, no.
46:36So then, February, I went to spring training.
46:39Came back, the season started, I came back.
46:43This is 42 now.
46:45And, uh, I didn't see her for a while.
46:49Cause it was pretty tough playing and doing that traveling.
46:52Uh huh.
46:53And then, about the middle of the year, I asked her again.
46:58And she still said, three times, I asked her again.
47:03All this time, she had been taking, uh, she was, uh, a family were, um, uh, Protestant, you know.
47:14And she was taking Catholic constructions.
47:16And she became a convert.
47:18And when she finally became a convert, unfortunately, it was after I had gone in the Navy.
47:23And, uh, when the World Series was over in 42, I went right in the Navy.
47:29And, uh, one day, I couldn't believe it.
47:32One day after boot camp, um, when I was allowed out, you know.
47:38You gotta stay in boot camp for, you know.
47:41I don't know how many weeks up here where they cut your hair all off.
47:44And they give you a couple of days to go home.
47:47And, uh, I called her and, uh, I didn't get to see her because I didn't have enough time to
47:54go home.
47:55And she said, well, well, I'll, um, I'll get in touch with you down here.
48:01And sure enough, one day she came down and she had made arrangements with the, uh, uh,
48:07I told her about this Italian family that I stayed with some time or other.
48:10And, uh, son of a gun, if they didn't take her in, I, and after I, uh,
48:14just one day she called me and the, you know,
48:17because we had to stay right at the, uh,
48:20Northland Naval Training Station right in the barracks there.
48:25And, um, she came with this barber.
48:30They picked me up and he took me back to house.
48:32So she said, well, if you still want me.
48:36And then sure enough, we got married while she was down there.
48:41And, uh, in a sailor suit, we had a one, one day honeymoon,
48:44because the war was on there.
48:45They didn't want to give me that.
48:48And then, unfortunately, I told her we were married in June.
48:56And, uh, in March of the next year, just three days after our first child was born,
49:08we got orders.
49:09All athletes ship overseas.
49:12And I was gone.
49:15So I missed order 43, 44, and 45.
49:21But I was lucky I came back.
49:22You know, a lot of guys didn't come back.
49:23Yep.
49:25And I ended up in New Guinea and the Philippines and, uh.
49:30So you were one of those that actually saw action.
49:32Yeah.
49:33But, uh, you know, the Navy was a lot better than the Army, I guess.
49:40That's what, uh, unless you had that run to Murmansk or whatever.
49:46You know, when they were torpedoing all those ships.
49:50Oh, wow.
49:51Well, getting back to the baseball run.
49:53Uh, 49, you were runner-up to Ted Williams as MVP.
49:58Yeah.
49:59In 50, you won it.
50:00In 50, I won.
50:00I couldn't believe it.
50:01In 49, I just missed and I had no idea.
50:04In 50, I never thought I'd get.
50:06You know, with guys like the Madge and Williams, Yogi was having his great years there.
50:11Yeah.
50:12So high.
50:14When you played, uh, nine World Series?
50:18Yeah.
50:19What, five All-Star games?
50:21Yeah.
50:22Yeah.
50:22I was very lucky.
50:23Very lucky.
50:24What did it mean to you, or in looking back, uh, to be a Yankee?
50:31Oh, I mean, that was, you know, when you got to be a Yankee, when you first, in those
50:35days, now it's, it's not that way now, but the pinstripes and the NY meant so much then.
50:40I mean, it was something to live up to and live for, and, uh, once you got in the habit
50:47of winning, that, that's one reason they, they won so many times.
50:51A lot of clubs never experienced the thrill of winning and what it, what it means to win
50:56and get in a World Series and win that.
50:58I mean, to us, it was almost automatic and we didn't get in.
51:01And, of course, you figure in my 13 years, only, uh, three times we didn't get in a World
51:07Series.
51:08I played in nine World Series, but the 10th one I would have played in, but that was
51:12the year that they released me in, uh, in the last day of, uh, August.
51:1755, yeah.
51:18No, 56.
51:1956.
51:20I played in the 55 World Series, which was the only one we lost to, uh, Brooklyn.
51:25Yeah.
51:27But then the 56 I would have played except that Casey said they needed a, a left-handed
51:32hitter.
51:33Wow.
51:34And that's when they got Slaughter, who was older than me.
51:36I couldn't believe it.
51:39And what was Casey like to play for?
51:41I mean, the earlier story about Casey telling you you had to get a shoeshine box.
51:47Two or three years was fine because he, he just said, listen, I know nothing about the
51:51American League.
51:51He said, you guys go out and play and we would win all the time.
51:56And then he had a method, he wanted to get rid of all the veteran ballplayers.
52:03So, because, I mean, he was afraid to talk to the badge, you know, Keller and Henrik and
52:09guys, even me.
52:11And then he's got older guys, you know.
52:18And then he's got older kids, Mattel, Martin, McDougal, all those young ballplayers, yeah.
52:27And, uh, then he became, in my late, late years, he, he started the platooning system.
52:33He's the one that started the platooning system.
52:35Yeah.
52:35Frank Bauer.
52:36Bauer and Woodling, they wanted to kill him.
52:38And yet there was the best thing that happened to them for their career, which they found
52:41out later on.
52:42They lasted longer.
52:47So there really was something to the Yankee mystique.
52:49Oh, yes.
52:50Oh, absolutely.
52:51I mean, every, every year we'd pick up a Johnny Mize, a Ewell Blackwell, somebody who would,
52:58um, Irv Noren, guys that just, you needed, you needed for that.
53:03Oh, yeah.
53:04And sure enough, they'd come through, you know.
53:07And what about the, uh, Yankee Red Sox rival?
53:10Oh, that was, that was, that was, that was, it couldn't have been a better one.
53:13I mean, that was really intense with the players and the fans, you know.
53:17When we went up there, they'd have a lot of Yankee fans.
53:22Here.
53:23Somebody bring that cannoli's?
53:25Somebody brought it up.
53:26Cannoli.
53:26Yeah.
53:28For an Italian American publication, in a sense, a general question would be, both as
53:35a baseball player and as a, just as a human being, what has it meant to you to know that
53:40you are an Italian American or of Italian background?
53:44Well, I mean, I'm very proud of the fact that I am Italian.
53:47And what they've accomplished in all the fields of painting and literature and religion
53:54and baseball.
53:57I mean, one of the reasons that I think the Yankees had always been successful whenever
54:01they had a lot of Italians on the team.
54:04Not that the other guys weren't good, but it just seemed like when they had that little
54:10mixture of the Italians and the rest of them and everything just worked out perfectly.
54:17And you know, when you go around the country and play in these different cities and they
54:23all have their Italian section and they all come out to the game and it's really, I get
54:28such a big thrill out of that.
54:30They don't care if they are Cleveland fans, they still root for the Yankees because of that,
54:37because of the Italian connection as we put it.
54:42Why do you think there were so many Italians that played baseball in your era, not just for the Yankees?
54:47You know, I tried to figure that out, but I couldn't tell.
54:50Like, it would be different if they all lived in a warm climate.
54:56You know, that's where you find most of the ballplayers coming from, whether it be the
55:01West Coast or Texas or Arizona or Miami, Florida.
55:08But I don't know just what it is.
55:11It's got to have something to do with the heritage, the hard work ethics and the desire, you know,
55:24to be the best you can be.
55:27But too many kids got potential and they don't live up to it.
55:32They just do enough to get by mediocre.
55:35If they really put, you know, they put it to the test and would bear down all the time,
55:40they'd be really great, a lot better than they are.
55:44In that sense, do you think the game has changed since the time you played?
55:47Oh, it's changed an awful lot and I don't think for the better either.
55:52Just, and it's not the players fault as much as the owners and the ones who pay these
55:59tremendous salaries.
56:04I mean, you can't take it away from the ballplayers.
56:07If I were playing now, I'd love to get the money they're getting now.
56:12But it's also money first and then the game of baseball second,
56:17whereas before it was always baseball first.
56:19And then you played to get good money.
56:23Now they don't have to do that anymore because they get five-year contracts
56:26and they get this feeling of security,
56:30which tends to let you down, let down your playing
56:33and you're hustling a lot more than it would be
56:37if you were to have a good year every year.
56:41Now, if you've got a five-year contract,
56:43you just have to have a good year the last year of that five-year contract.
56:46You, probably.
56:46You, probably.
56:49Thank you, everybody.
56:51You are welcome.
56:53Thank you, everybody,
56:53all you have to have the great time in the evening.
56:53And that's all the best day I'm putting up on the show here,
56:53and I'll take a look on the show.
56:54Bye-bye.
56:54So, I'll take a look.
56:54Let this show you on the show.
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