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00:00Hello and welcome to Catching Up with the Royals, the show that never complains but always explains, with me, Richard
00:06Coles.
00:07And me, Emily Andrews. On today's show, we'll be revealing the man who's been tasked with ending the four-year
00:13feud between Prince William and Prince Harry.
00:15They do seem to be so at odds, it's hard to see the reconciliation, right?
00:19When William becomes king, William V, he has to have some kind of working relationship with Harry.
00:24And as rumours of Meghan's autobiography circulate, we're looking at what would happen if the Duchess did release a book,
00:30and looking at the four powerful women who could make this book a reality.
00:35What is Oprah Winfrey doing here?
00:38And she was at the Royal Wedding.
00:39Plus, we're delving into the Royal Family's own personal treasure trove, also known as the Royal Collection, and looking at
00:46some of the more unusual items it includes.
00:486,000 diamonds worth 10 billion pounds, but anyway.
00:51It's the world's largest group of Leonardo da Vinci drawings.
01:02Welcome to the show, Catching Up with the Royals. Welcome, Richard.
01:06Welcome, Emily.
01:07First, we're meeting the man who seemingly has got the most impossible job in the Royal Family.
01:14So this is Theo Rycroft, right, who is the new Deputy Secretary to His Majesty the King.
01:20Yes.
01:21But unpack that a little bit.
01:22That is not the most difficult aspect of his job, I would suggest, because he was appointed, I think, six
01:29months ago.
01:30And obviously, the tour to America went brilliantly.
01:32And Theo was there as the Deputy Private Secretary, along with Clive Alderton, who is the King's Private Secretary.
01:38But apparently, according to reports, the big story of the week, can William and Harry's feud ever be solved?
01:48Theo is the man to solve it.
01:49I'm not sure what Theo himself thinks about it, but it's been reported that Theo has been tasked with solving
01:58or ending the feud between William and Harry.
02:01I have to say, I was a little bit surprised by this.
02:04I mean, look, I'm sure a lot of people have tried.
02:06Well, I know a lot of people have tried to act as go-betweens between William and Harry.
02:11I think the current situation is that they haven't spoken since the late Queen's funeral in 2022.
02:16And obviously, the rift predates then, as we have discussed a lot.
02:21But do we really think a royal courtier can achieve the impossible?
02:24Well, he's a diplomat, right?
02:26Wasn't he head of mission in Paris?
02:28So he's a senior diplomat.
02:29He's obviously a smart guy.
02:31He's obviously possessed of the kind of silky skills that you would need both as a diplomat and as a
02:36courtier.
02:36But you'd need to have the wisdom of Solomon, it seems to me, to try to broker a kind of
02:42sort of detente between William and Harry.
02:45Because they do seem to be so at odds, it's hard to see the reconciliation, right?
02:50What I took from the story, and I don't think Theo has officially commented,
02:54or in fact, Buckingham Palace has officially commented on whether he has been tasked or not.
02:58Like they're going to.
02:59Like they're going to.
03:00Yes, by the way, of course.
03:01This is my job.
03:02This is my job.
03:04But I think perhaps what we can read into it, that it's the King's wish that he would like his
03:11two warring sons to be reconciled.
03:14And also, if you look at it from the King's point of view, as a father, it makes it much
03:19more difficult for him to see Harry and to meet Harry if Harry and William aren't talking.
03:25The brickbats, I think we've rehearsed many times.
03:28And I think to make Theo's job even more tricky, even if he were tasked to do this by the
03:36King, he's not William's man.
03:39And he's not working for William.
03:40He's working for the King.
03:41He's not working for the Prince of Wales.
03:43And the two courts are very separate.
03:44You've got the Court of William, the Prince of Wales, funded by the Duchy of Cornwall.
03:48And you've got the Court of the King, obviously funded by a sovereign grant, Duchy of Lancaster.
03:52And so William doesn't have to depend on his father anymore.
03:55He's financially independent.
03:57And so maybe he might respond to a fraternal, as Harry says in Spare, please, boys, don't make my final
04:06years a misery.
04:09But is he going to respond to a courtier?
04:12And also, it's been reported that the courtier in question, Theo Rycroft, has commented, but I'm not sure that that
04:19quote stands up, right?
04:21Well, I mean, have you ever heard a diplomat, a silky diplomat, Richard, say that heads need to be knocked
04:28together, quote, unquote, and I quote, the situation is, with an F at the beginning of that, ridiculous.
04:35Have you ever heard a diplomat speak like that?
04:37No, never, ever.
04:38I mean, it's just not done.
04:40Toujours la politesse, as they say.
04:42Always politeness, right?
04:43Toujours la politesse.
04:44In a couple of weeks' time, we have a royal wedding.
04:47Peter Phillips is getting married to NHS nurse Harriet Sperling.
04:53And this is a family wedding.
04:55I mean, and Harry and Meghan aren't going.
05:00Were they invited?
05:01Well, that's a very good question.
05:03I heard that Harry and Meghan weren't going.
05:08And so I put that to their team, and they confirmed that Harry and Meghan aren't going.
05:13The fact that Harry and Meghan aren't going, possibly weren't invited, means that this is not just a family issue
05:20between Harry and William.
05:22So therefore, William's got a lot of his family in his camp.
05:27Princess Anne, I think, is team William.
05:29But there's another dimension here, isn't there?
05:31And that if Prince William is implacable, and he's famously quite sort of firm in his opinions, he's the Prince
05:38of Wales.
05:39He is going to be, all things being equal, King of England.
05:42So you might want to associate yourself with that camp rather than the other camp, if the future king is
05:50not that inclined to be mates with his brother.
05:53Absolutely.
05:54And I think it's not just William who is upset by what Harry's done.
05:58Many members of the family have been upset.
06:00Because I think we do sort of concentrate, don't we, on the William and Harry feud and William being very
06:05upset, quite understandably.
06:06Harry being upset as well.
06:08You know, let's not forget that he's talked a lot about how he has been upset and felt let down
06:12in the royal machinery.
06:14But I think there are many other members of the family who felt that Harry has behaved badly and unforgivably.
06:22And so I think it's very tricky, isn't it?
06:27There's lots and lots of family rifts here.
06:30And the fact that Harry and Meghan, and it's again, you know, I suspect that William and Catherine and the
06:35three children will be at Peter's wedding.
06:37I suspect, obviously, that, you know, there'll be other members of the royal family there.
06:41And so it just makes it more difficult for Harry and Meghan ever to go to these family events.
06:47Do you go back to Theo Rycroft?
06:48Just go to me then.
06:49Of course, he is the king's private deputy, deputy private secretary.
06:53But he's also, he has worked with William, hasn't he?
06:55Wasn't, didn't he?
06:56They do this Paris trip together or something.
06:59He was working at the embassy, the British embassy in Paris, when Notre Dame was reopened.
07:05And this was at the end of 2024, just before Donald Trump took his second presidency.
07:16And William was there representing the king.
07:18And at that time, it was quite, well, it was a really big deal for William to go over, represent
07:24the king.
07:25He had that meeting with Trump in the British embassy.
07:28So it's good that Theo has had a relationship with Prince William when he met him, when William was there
07:34in late 2024 for the reopening of Notre Dame.
07:37But my experience in covering the royal family is that members of the family don't take kindly to courtiers from
07:44other members of the family trying to get involved and sort things out.
07:48Get your tanks off my lawn.
07:50Exactly.
07:51He's a lawyer, isn't he, Theo Rycroft?
07:53Isn't he a really smart lawyer?
07:55That might bring something to the argument, perhaps?
07:57Very smart guy.
07:58Oxford educated lawyer.
08:00I can't remember which area of law he is in, but he joined the Foreign Office in 2005.
08:05So long serving 20 plus years in the silky skills of the Foreign Office diplomacy.
08:11When William becomes king, William V, he has to have some kind of working relationship with Harry.
08:17But also from a professional point of view, doesn't he need to make that relationship work?
08:20From a psychological point of view, it doesn't work.
08:22If you pretend somebody doesn't exist, you actually keep them current.
08:26What you need to do is remake your relationship and then make it better rather than pretend it's not happening.
08:32Because if you pretend it's not happening, it will always be there.
08:34You've got experience of trying to soothe and bring together relationships in your former work.
08:42What would you say, if you're advising William and Harry separately, what would you say to them?
08:47I think you've got to give things time, play a long game.
08:50I don't see this reconciliation happening anytime soon, actually.
08:54I think if you think about the pressures that that was formed under, the loss of their mother, growing up
08:59as members of the royal family, the king's succession.
09:03These are really, really, really big and dynamic things happening.
09:06And I think until that settles, maybe a bit of circumspection happens.
09:12The other thing, of course, is that, you know, Harry is going to have to make a living.
09:15And that might be in ways that William might find uncomfortable.
09:19William's going to be king, probably.
09:21That might make Harry feel uncomfortable.
09:22It's very tricky.
09:24And we're going to be talking later about potentially Meghan writing an autobiography.
09:29And one can only imagine that to make serious money, you have to monetise being royal.
09:33And that's always going to upset William.
09:35We're not interested in the jam recipes, are we?
09:37Not really.
09:37We want to know about what it was like.
09:40Well, you know, we're coming up to a break.
09:42And at the end of that, we're going to be talking about the possibility of a memoir from Meghan.
09:46But I've got a question first.
09:47First, Spare, Prince Harry's memoir, sold how many copies on its first day of publication?
09:54Answer coming up after the break.
10:03Welcome back to Catching Up with the Royals.
10:05And we left you before the break with a question.
10:06How many copies did Harry's autobiography, Spare, sell on the first day of publication?
10:12Do you know the answer?
10:14It was very quick, wasn't it?
10:17So it sold a lot on the first day.
10:19I'm going to hazard a guess, 50,000?
10:221.43 million.
10:24On the first day?
10:25On the first day.
10:26The fastest selling non-fiction book of all time.
10:30Wow.
10:31So that leaves quite an act for Meghan to follow, right?
10:34It does.
10:34Do you know anything about this book?
10:35Well, I think it's just a rumour at the moment that she's writing an autobiography.
10:40I mean, I remember, I think there was a Vanity Fair piece.
10:46There was some suggestion that someone on her behalf had reached out to write about the divorce.
10:53Her divorce.
10:55That hasn't happened.
10:56That hasn't happened.
10:57When I read that, I was quite flabbergasted.
11:00I think I should make clear that there's no suggestion that they're going to get divorced.
11:04And it could even have been, Richard, and I suspect this probably was the actuality.
11:09I'm sure many, many publishers approached Harry and Meghan.
11:14Eventually, it was, I think, Random House, Penguin Random House, that published Spare, Harry's autobiography.
11:21There would have been many people, I'm sure, wanting to publish Meghan's.
11:25And in Vanity Fair, it reported that conversations were had that if Harry and Meghan were to get divorced,
11:34what would be the appetite and fee for Meghan writing all about that?
11:43So, all possibilities come under consideration, which is understandable, but pricing it is an interesting one, isn't it?
11:48Yes.
11:49I think, Richard, when you look at Oprah, not so much Oprah, but when you look at the Netflix,
11:54although it was, I think it was six episodes, they didn't actually say that much.
11:58I know there was quite a bit of, they were actually quite careful, I thought, what they said.
12:04Of course, anything they say is going to be bombshell, right?
12:06Yeah.
12:07Yeah, Meghan to write an autobiography would be dynamite.
12:10It's also reported that Meghan has four famous friends in her corner who could help, you know, make this book
12:15a reality.
12:15So, these four famous friends, Richard, there's been a lot about Meghan's friends,
12:20but this list I hadn't heard before.
12:22So, there is Oprah Winfrey.
12:23Tick.
12:24Tick.
12:24Melody Hobson.
12:25Who he?
12:26She.
12:26She is the former Starbucks chair and chief executive of Ariel Investments.
12:31She's also, crucially, married to director George Lucas, Shonda Rhimes, US TV titan, Bridgerton, Grey's Anatomy, and Nicole Avent.
12:38She's a diplomat, but she's also married to the co-CEO of Netflix, Ted Sarandos.
12:44These four women, Oprah, Melody Hobson, Shonda Rhimes, Nicole Avent, are massive Hollywood gatekeepers.
12:51They have a lot of power, right?
12:52Huge amount of power.
12:53These women are going to get you, if they ask, a door will be opened in Hollywood.
12:59Oprah Winfrey leads the pack.
13:01We all know about her, don't we?
13:02Well, she's been a strong supporter of the Sussexes.
13:05Yeah, and of course, that famous interview with them, wasn't it?
13:07It was the one where it all kind of broke.
13:09Yes, and the first one to kind of tell their truth, I suppose.
13:12And she was at the royal wedding.
13:14She was at the royal wedding.
13:15Do you think they really are friends, or do you think like celebrity friends?
13:18Like not, you know, you're just, you're officially friends.
13:21Well, I remember at the wedding, and I remember seeing her name down sitting in the choir, the topmost bit
13:26of St. George's Chapel.
13:27And I remember saying to one of Harry's top team, what is Oprah Winfrey doing here?
13:33And he said, oh, really good friend of the Duke and Duchess.
13:37And I said, has, how many times have they met?
13:40Oh, Emily.
13:41And I said, has Harry even met her?
13:44I think at the time, I don't think he had.
13:46It turned out he hadn't even met her at that point.
13:49Or maybe, I think she, I think she maybe had met Oprah once.
13:52But, you know, if you're going to use anything as leverage, surely you're going to use a royal wedding to
13:59sort of leverage your friends.
14:00Yeah, and also there are, you know, official friendships, aren't there, as well as actual friendships.
14:06Yeah, I mean, I think the two women live close by, so, you know, and they are mutually supportive of
14:11each other.
14:11And when we talk about Meghan's autobiography, the expectation is that it would be ghostwritten, rather like Harry's was, by
14:16the brilliant Mr. Moringa, who's the kind of doyenne of ghostwriters.
14:21Very intense relationship, lots of late night phone calls, lots of heated discussion.
14:26I imagine Meghan would take a firm view, wouldn't she, about her own interests in that.
14:31And who would be the ghost?
14:32Or maybe Meghan would write it herself.
14:34Often the ghosts never talk, but Moringa, because his name was there, and also because he's, he did, I think,
14:40Andre Agassi's, and he's done a couple of other very high name biographies.
14:45I think that was, it's a really complicated process.
14:49You've written two?
14:50Yeah, so far.
14:51Did you write them yourself?
14:52Yeah, I would never use a ghostwriter, but then I love writing, as it's what I do.
14:56But I sometimes think it would be very interesting to have a discussion with a ghostwriter about the stuff of
15:00your own life, because if they would reflect back to you in detail, we all, you know, we all make
15:07excuses for ourselves.
15:08We're all a bit deluded about ourselves, aren't we?
15:10It'd be very interesting to have someone hold a mirror up that close who was spending a lot of time
15:14with you.
15:14I guess with Harry's autobiography in spare, I'm not sure that he maybe sent it to members of his family.
15:23No, lawyer to lawyer, I'd have thought, wouldn't you?
15:25As I understand it, these four women are part of Meghan's Mahjong Club.
15:30Mahjong, it's a strategic game.
15:31It's a bit like Rummy, except we use these kind of domino tile things with, like, symbols on rather than
15:36cards.
15:38I like the fact it's a strategic game, Richard.
15:41It's a strategic game.
15:41Richard, this is not just checkers.
15:43Where I live, we play Sweaty Betty on a Wednesday.
15:46That's not really a strategic game.
15:47Where I live, I wear Sweaty Betty on a Wednesday.
15:51When you kind of put together, convene a group of such powerful women, it can only help your cause.
15:58And also, it's a regular meet, right?
16:01So they probably see quite a lot of each other.
16:02And it's often what's said not on stage, but off stage, that's the critical stuff.
16:06Yeah.
16:07So these are really important.
16:08Now, Oprah, they're neighbours, aren't they?
16:10She's down the road.
16:11Yes.
16:12Estate to estate.
16:13Meghan's invested in a number of kind of wellness brands.
16:15And I remember right at the beginning of their move to California, I think Oprah had a box of kind
16:22of matcha teas and lattes and not Earl Grey or Darjeeling Richard.
16:30And Oprah was kind of unboxing it, basically giving Meghan publicity.
16:34She has millions of followers on social media and helping Meghan with her sort of investments.
16:46I think she's been a real, obviously, sounding board for the pair.
16:52You've got Melody Hobson, who obviously is a very senior executive and is obviously a businesswoman of huge talent, very
16:59important, also married to George Lucas, huge Hollywood figure, too.
17:03And then you've got Shonda Rhives.
17:05Bridgerton, Grey's Anatomy, and she is kind of the hot ticket, I think, in Hollywood right now as an executive
17:14producer.
17:14If she puts her name on something, Shondaland is her production company, if she puts her name on something, it's
17:20going to be a hit.
17:21I've seen Shondaland.
17:22Full disclosure from Meghan, of course, they're all nervous about that.
17:24And it goes very much against that culture in royal circles, doesn't it?
17:27Never complain, never explain.
17:30Don't let light in on the mystery.
17:32That's what they're all about, aren't they?
17:33And I think also the lesson of the reign of Queen Elizabeth II was the power that comes from saying
17:37nothing, right?
17:39Must be frustrating for you if you're a royal reporter.
17:42Well, as a journalist, obviously, I hate this mantra of never complain, never explain, because of course you want them.
17:48Of course you want the royals and their people to talk, because it just adds more to the story, perpetuates
17:54the story, adds more fuel to the fire.
17:56But that's the reason why, taking my journalist's hat off, that's the reason why it's a mantra that has served
18:02them so well.
18:02And that's really why, when you've seen members of the family deviate, Prince Charles talking to Jonathan Dibbleby, Princess Diana
18:13talking to Martin Bashir, you know, Fergie, Sarah Ferguson in many, many interviews.
18:19We love it when they talk, but it really helps their individual brand.
18:25Do you think it's harder to keep Stum now? I mean, the Queen seemed to just be Sphinx-like effortlessly,
18:29but now there's so much appetite for this and so many more outlets chasing it.
18:34Or maybe just it's a personal thing, people just want to tell their story. Don't tell your story, keep it
18:39yourself.
18:40Well, I think it is a mantra that has served the royal family well. Never complain, never explain.
18:47Sometimes you do have to say something, but I think whenever the royal family does, it has to be crafted
18:53so that it is not complaining.
18:56I mean, I guess it must be very frustrating. There is so much written about the royals as an institution,
19:02on a personal level.
19:04And I guess it must be, you know, you're in the public eye, Richard.
19:07It must be very irritating when things get put into print that aren't true, or you think that's a bit
19:13unfair, or how do you deal with it?
19:15Well, it's what you need to do is just not do anything. But it's quite difficult sometimes.
19:20Occasionally something will get you and you react, but I've always regretted it if I have reacted.
19:24But here's my question to you. Who is the only person we've ever seen in a tete-a-tete with
19:29Queen Elizabeth II?
19:31Isn't it, you mean a televised one?
19:35Yeah. It's Paddington Bear.
19:37Oh.
19:39Isn't that interesting? The one person where you see the Queen having a sort of, little da-da-da-da
19:43-da-da, Paddington Bear.
19:45Paddington Bear.
19:46And Paddington Bear, Emily, is not real.
19:47No! You're telling me Paddington's not real.
19:50Of course he's real.
19:51Don't tell me.
19:52And anyway, she didn't explain or complain to Paddington.
19:55It's certainly a mantra that served her well.
19:57And I think that we want to know every personal detail and we want to know that they are just
20:04like us.
20:05But then we don't like it when they're just like us.
20:07We don't like it when they're put on camera and kind of say, you know, I had affairs or I
20:11cried or I was really depressed.
20:14Time for a quick break, Richard.
20:15But don't forget, you can catch up with Catching Up With The Royals every Thursday on YouTube, every Saturday on
20:23Five or wherever you get your podcasts.
20:27So, a question, Richard, for you.
20:29Yeah.
20:30Catherine has been in Italy this week, but do you know where she went on her first ever royal tour?
20:37No, I don't.
20:38Answers after this.
20:47Welcome back to Catching Up With The Royals.
20:50Before the break, we asked you, where was Catherine's first overseas tour?
20:56And of course, then she was the Duchess of Cambridge.
20:58And the answer is...
20:59I don't know.
21:01Canada.
21:02Canada.
21:03In July 2011, just after her wedding to Prince William.
21:06I love Canada.
21:07Me too.
21:08Yeah.
21:09I've been on tour with them a couple of times to Canada.
21:11It is a great...
21:12It's almost a continent, it's so large, but fantastic.
21:15Something about it, isn't there?
21:17The wild open spaces.
21:18And that awful poutine thing they have in Montreal.
21:21Have you eaten that?
21:22No.
21:23Oh, blimey.
21:23It looks horrible, but it tastes delicious.
21:25Anyway.
21:26This week, Catherine's been in Italy and it's her first official tour since her cancer diagnosis of...
21:32Gosh.
21:3324.
21:33Yeah, 2024.
21:34It feels like quite a short time and also quite a long time, doesn't it?
21:38Um, and she's in, um, the whole focus of her trip this week has been early childhood.
21:47So lots of preschool visits, um, nature-based learning, lovely, um...
21:54All the stuff she loves.
21:55All the stuff she loves.
21:56And a real focus of her work is why the early years are so important, ages zero to five.
22:03I mean, who doesn't love a picture of the Princess of Wales hugging and talking to little kids?
22:08Yeah.
22:09But she lived in Italy.
22:10She lived in Florence, um, as part of her art history degree.
22:14So maybe her Italian is better than her French.
22:17Dove?
22:19Dove?
22:20Where's her husband?
22:21Dove?
22:22Ah, dove il marito.
22:23Il marito.
22:24Ah, ti vero.
22:25Molto bene, molto bene.
22:27Alla scuola.
22:28Not alla scuola.
22:29That's at school.
22:29Oui, sì.
22:30Sì, alla scuola.
22:31At school.
22:31Because he's been doing the school runs.
22:33So she didn't bring him?
22:34She didn't bring Prince William.
22:35No.
22:36Because she's doing childcare.
22:37He's doing childcare.
22:38But it's important for them, isn't it, that they see the kids every day and the kids see
22:41them every day.
22:42Yeah.
22:43That's really important to her and to him.
22:45Definitely.
22:46And I think this trip is interesting because it's a, it's, it's, I think it's definitely
22:50a blueprint for the future because it's a two day trip and it ticked off a lot of her
22:55kind of interest points.
22:57But we haven't actually seen William and Catherine together on a tour since that tour, the Platinum
23:04Jubilee tour to the Caribbean in 2022, which is four years ago now.
23:08Which didn't go so well.
23:10No, I was told that, that Catherine and William were left very hurt and upset by that tour.
23:16It was always going to be a tricky tour.
23:18Three Caribbean countries, Platinum Jubilee, you know, in another world, it would have been
23:22Harry and Meghan doing that, Richard.
23:24I think that was, that was the tour that was earmarked for them.
23:26But, you know, when they went to Jamaica, there was a lot of reparation talk, colonial
23:30talk.
23:30And there were those two pictures that, that were very unfortunate.
23:34The picture of them inside a football cage, shaking hands with those outside.
23:39And look, there's football cages in every city in the UK, let alone in the Caribbean.
23:42But it was just the, the way the picture was cropped.
23:44And then there was another picture of them recreating the Queen and Prince Philip's sort
23:48of tour in a Land Rover, I think from the 1950s, 1960s.
23:52I was told that certainly Prince William was, we are never doing that kind of thing again.
23:56So I wonder whether this Italian trip causes very close to Catherine's heart, children,
24:03mental health, nature, learning outdoors.
24:07Is that going to be how they view it going forward in terms of maybe they'll divide to
24:12conquer?
24:13They'll do two or three day European trips.
24:16Maybe they'll come together for a, for a Commonwealth country, Australia, Canada, but.
24:19Better for a slimmed down monarchy as well, isn't it?
24:22If you get your three principles doing two different things instead of the same thing.
24:25Exactly.
24:25And also it's kind of a bit more modern, isn't it?
24:27It's not, oh, here's our lovely family, they've joined at the hip.
24:30It's the independent people who have their own lives and the rest of them.
24:34I thought of a joke though.
24:36Don't we?
24:36You could say the Princess of Wales has gone to the Caribbean.
24:39Jamaica, yes, because Harry and William wouldn't go.
24:41Harry and Meghan wouldn't go.
24:43Do you get it?
24:45Come on.
24:47Come on, room.
24:48I think this is a sign, another sign of how powerful an asset Catherine is.
24:53I know because she told me that in the past she's, she's been a bit kind of upset that
25:00she's just known for her fashion and that's all we kind of ever write about.
25:04And obviously the Kate effect is well documented and it's very important to the fashion industry
25:08that when she wears something, it can sell out in a moment.
25:11And that's a real power and a real economic power of which British fashion has really benefited.
25:17But she, she's, she's popular, but crucially for her as a kind of asset, both at home and
25:24abroad, she's not unpopular.
25:27She's globally recognisable, but doesn't give political commentary.
25:32She doesn't give interviews.
25:36She, some might say she has been, you know, say that she's, she's bland or boring, but,
25:40but actually that's to her kind of brand credit.
25:44She's been invited to the Met Gala, for instance, several times.
25:48She's always said no because she doesn't want to be flashy or flamboyant or stand out.
25:55And I think that that actually really helps her personal brand.
25:58I sense she's coming into her own, actually.
26:00I think she's quite a potent weapon they've got.
26:04And it can be really interesting to see where it goes with her.
26:07And I think it's good that she's, she's, I mean, she, she has done tours on her own.
26:11I think she went to, I remember she, I went with, I went with her to Amsterdam, to Holland
26:16for, for a day.
26:18But I think we absolutely, if, if she, if she wants to, then we should be asking her as a,
26:24as a country, as the UK, we should be asking her to do this kind of thing because she's,
26:28she's an amazing asset.
26:29What's interesting here, Richard, I don't think this was a foreign office requested tour.
26:33Or there's a group who decide where members of the royal family go on tour.
26:37And I, I, this obviously would have been kind of put and approved by them, but this very
26:41much has been, seems to me, it's Catherine saying, this is my centre for early childhood.
26:46We're taking it internationally.
26:48This is where I'd like to go.
26:49I'd like to go and learn more.
26:51I'd like to go to Italy.
26:52I'd like to see how they, how they do preschool differently, how they do nursery differently,
26:57how they utilise.
26:58And it's a fact finding mission for me.
27:00Italy was one of the first countries that they went to after the King's accession because
27:05obviously it's an important European neighbour and partner.
27:08So it's interesting one, I mean, because you, you see Catherine, she's doing something new,
27:12right?
27:12She's independent, she's going out of the world on her own, but she's also repeating something
27:15that has already been there.
27:16That sense of dutifulness that you associate with Queen Elizabeth II.
27:22She's something old, something new, maybe something boring, maybe something good, but she's doing
27:25something that's both new and traditional at the same time.
27:27No, definitely.
27:28I think she definitely took the late Queen as her kind of lodestar and her guide in how
27:34to be royal.
27:36And I think that has served her well.
27:38She is, can be a little bit shy and she is reserved.
27:47I don't think she's ever going to be the person to want to be sort of jumping up and down
27:52the
27:53life and soul in front of a television screen.
27:55I mean, she's great at a party.
27:58What's she like off camera?
28:00She's very composed.
28:02She even, when she was younger and going out clubbing and she, you know, used to drink cocktails
28:06and champagne and things like that, she would have the presence of mind to know that there
28:11were photographers outside the nightclub.
28:13So she would go to the loos, fix her hair and makeup before she left a party or a nightclub
28:19so that she wasn't photographed looking disheveled.
28:23And I think that composure and that sense of steel and that sense of, oh, and that strategy
28:29as well has served her in very good said.
28:32She's got a great sense of humour.
28:34And I wonder whether that makes things easier for her.
28:37She's got the kind of the public Catherine and the private Kate and the public Catherine
28:44is, is kind of quite, it's quite reserved and quite formal and very warm with the kiddies
28:50as she calls them.
28:51But, but it's, it's, it's not, she's not going to give you too much.
28:54The private Kate is quite different, very warm, very friendly and got a great sense of humour.
29:00I remember when we were in Australia in 2014, we're in the Outback and they, they had to
29:07stand, her and William had to stand in a specific place to get the shot of Aluru or Ayers Rock
29:12behind them.
29:13So they had to be specific and it had been marked out on the floor with a plastic spider.
29:20And so she crept round the back of the sofa to where one of her aides was sitting and she
29:28knew that he didn't like spiders.
29:30In fact, I'd been with him a couple of days earlier, picking up our bags and there were
29:33these huge spiders in the Outback.
29:36And so Kate creeps behind the sofa and then just kind of drops it into her aides lap.
29:43I mean, he nearly hit the roof of the, of, of the plane and obviously everyone thought
29:49it was very funny, including, I should say, the, the aid.
29:54The victim.
29:54Yes, the victim of her practical joke.
29:57But, but, but that's not the only time I've been told that she, she, she likes a practical
30:02joke and, and she, she likes, she likes a good laugh.
30:06Do you think she minds the accusation of blandness?
30:08Because I mean, that's what you risk, isn't it?
30:10By giving nothing away, if you would go, oh, you're boring, you're bland.
30:13I think marrying into the royal family was hugely daunting and challenging.
30:17And what better person to have as your guide, both metaphorically and literally than, than,
30:24than Queen Elizabeth.
30:25As a performer, do you have a public Richard and a private Richard?
30:29Yeah.
30:30And I'm just used to doing it.
30:32It's like anything else, you know, you get better at it.
30:34But there is a version of me, as you know, that I don't, that is a private one.
30:40Yeah, of course.
30:40And you have to maintain the difference between the two.
30:43Oh, well, you get bananas.
30:44Yeah.
30:45So she is in a very real sense treasure, would you say?
30:48I would say the Princess of Wales is a treasure.
30:51Very glad you say that because in our next part, we're going to be talking about royal treasures.
30:57And I've got a question before we go to the break.
30:59Hit me.
31:00Which crown did the king wear at his own coronation?
31:04Do you know the answer?
31:06I should know this off the top of my head.
31:08You're good on tiaras.
31:09Not so good on crowns.
31:10Not so good on crowns.
31:11Answer after the break.
31:20Welcome back to Catching Up With The Royals.
31:22And you can catch up with us.
31:23There's so many ways of doing it.
31:25You can catch us on Five.
31:26You can connect with us wherever you get your social media.
31:29If you have an opportunity to like and subscribe, do both.
31:32That's what we say.
31:34And also, we'll be talking in the break about the question that I left.
31:39It's a cliffhanger.
31:40Which crown was put on the king's head at his own coronation?
31:43Emily, do you know?
31:44Well, I was going to say the imperial state crown.
31:47Wrong.
31:47I know.
31:48Tell me.
31:48I think that's the one they wear at the state opening of Parliament because it's super bling.
31:52No, it's St. Edward's crown.
31:54St. Edward's, of course it is.
31:54Which has traditionally been used.
31:56Well, this is a complicated one.
31:57St. Edward the Confessor, it goes back to, whose tomb is indeed in Westminster Abbey.
32:01But after the execution of Charles I and Cromwell brought it into the Commonwealth, it was melted down and repurposed.
32:09So they made a new one in 1661 for the coronation of Charles II after the restoration, and that's the
32:15one they use now.
32:16It's not day wear, really.
32:18It's very heavy, and it's absolutely covered in bling.
32:23It is.
32:23Yeah.
32:24I think, hasn't it got one A-bit or a Cullinan diamond in there?
32:28There's Cullinan diamonds all over.
32:31All over.
32:32Sprinkled like glitter over the crown jewels.
32:34The royal collection.
32:35But the big one, actually the big one's in the scepter, the main one is in the scepter, which is
32:39the kind of golden stick that the sovereign makes a sign of authority.
32:44Well, of course, the royal collection, who looks after the crown jewels on behalf of all of us, the state,
32:51for the monarch in question, they don't just have jewels, Richard.
32:57A lot of jewels, though.
32:57Pardon?
32:586,000 diamonds worth 10 billion pounds, but anyway.
33:01That's a lot of jewels.
33:02Yeah.
33:02Can you imagine?
33:03If we sold them all, we might solve our blooming NHS and schools funding crisis.
33:08You couldn't sell them tomorrow, but you sold them today.
33:11But the royal collection, it's not just jewels, which is really fascinating.
33:14I went to a great new exhibition in Buckingham Palace on the late Queen Elizabeth's wardrobe, because fashion is also
33:27held as part of the Royal Collection Trust.
33:31So they look after all the kind of artworks that, on behalf of the monarch, they hold them in trust.
33:36And there's everything from kind of Leonardo da Vinci drawings, to Stubbs paintings, to wine, to ancient armour.
33:45And, and, but this, this, this, this curation of the late Queen's wardrobe was amazing.
33:52And I was told, I mean, it had everything from her sort of ball gowns, to, um, her riding outfits,
33:59to her brides, to her, um, to the royal christening robe that's been used for upteen royal babies.
34:06And it's called, um, her life, Queen Elizabeth II, her life in style.
34:11Um, it was because of Queen Mary, it was her grandmother, apparently, that that is why Elizabeth II never threw
34:19anything away.
34:21Well, no, she was an accumulator, not a dispenser.
34:24Queen Elizabeth took the same kind of path, um, as Queen Mary, and then so did Elizabeth II.
34:30And in this exhibition, there is a dry cleaning bill for her Burberry trench coats.
34:36In the exhibition is her wedding dress from 1947.
34:42And it's fascinating, because at the time, a way of treating the velvet in the 1940s was to use quite,
34:49I think, quite harsh acid.
34:51I think, uh, even as, there's some sort of silver tint.
34:53So, unfortunately, the velvet, you can see that on the wedding dress, the sleeves have been replaced on her wedding
34:59dress.
34:59And to the curators to look after, the velvet have put this very, very fine mesh on to try and
35:07stop any of it, um, deteriorating.
35:10The, the, her, her, her, some of her, they're still finding the late queen's dresses.
35:15Sort of literally shoved into trunks in sort of attics at Buckingham Palace.
35:22Other bits of her wardrobe were incredibly carefully curated in, um, perspex boxes or, or hung on kind of, in,
35:32on clothes rails that were completely kind of covered to stop the moss, Richard.
35:39Can you imagine if the moss got in?
35:40So, the Royal Collection holds a lot of fashion, a lot of dresses.
35:44To what I'm interested in.
35:46Tell me.
35:46The wine.
35:47They've got amazing wine.
35:48So, apparently, there are 39,000 bottles at Buckingham Palace.
35:51Did you know that?
35:51I did.
35:52Um, and also, and it's not just the, the super fine wine that you would expect a royal household to
35:57have, but it's the wine they serve to guests.
35:59And it's not always posh wine, but they have a team of people who do all that.
36:04And I knew, and Jancis Robinson, she was one of them, and I remember talking to her about it.
36:08And she was saying that they were, you know, buying kind of just everyday sort of wine as well, but
36:12decent stuff, good stuff.
36:14They take it seriously.
36:15They do it properly.
36:16They do, and I think they buy a lot of stuff on Primer, which means that they buy it before
36:19it's been released onto market, especially stuff like Claret, or, as we would say now, Bordeaux.
36:25And they, and it's an investment as well.
36:27Although, crucially, of course, it's investment, not in terms of money or price.
36:32They're not going to sell it.
36:34But obviously, if you buy stuff young, and you've got the room, as they do, to lay it down in
36:39the Buckingham Palace cellars, they can keep it for 20, 30, 40 years.
36:43So a bottle of wine that might cost you 15, 20, 25 pounds when you first buy it, if you,
36:49when you're drinking it 25 years later, potentially, you can, it might cost you 2,000 pounds.
36:54You know, everyone just has, like, mineral water now.
36:58Do they, or do they have wine at lunch and stuff?
37:00I was with the late Queen in Cambridge, and she was looking at some vines.
37:04And I heard her actually say to the vinicultors, the people who were growing the vines,
37:15well, actually, I don't drink wine anymore.
37:19But she did stop drinking wine towards the end of her reign.
37:24Doctor's order.
37:25Well, hilariously, I remember, I distinctly heard her saying this, that she didn't drink wine.
37:32And of course, part of the reason we were there, English wine, and to promote, that wasn't actually the reason
37:37why we were there.
37:37We weren't there to promote English wine.
37:39But obviously, I thought, aha, a story, Richard, the late Queen has, Queen Elizabeth has given up drinking wine.
37:45So then I said to her, Preston, can I just clarify, I've just heard her say, she doesn't drink wine.
37:51Can I just clarify that?
37:51I'm assuming she still drinks her famous Duwanae and Gin, which she had sort of, you know, when the sun
37:57was over the yard arm.
37:59And, oh, gosh, it sent them into such a tailspin.
38:02Why?
38:02I don't know.
38:03I think that they were worried that if they confirmed what I'd heard, it would turn it into a story.
38:08And then it would be an example of her advancing years.
38:12And it would be health.
38:13And I mean, I just thought it was quite nice.
38:16It's a bit like, you know, what tea did she drink?
38:18You know, did she drink Earl Grey or did she drink the Buckingham Palace blend?
38:23And another thing from the Royal Collection is an elaborately patterned cotton coat, believed to have belonged to Tipu Sultan,
38:33the 18th century ruler of Mysore.
38:35Although I don't think it's called Mysore anymore, but it was then, which is in southern India.
38:41In fact, I've been to Mysore and I've stayed in a Maharaja's palace.
38:46Don't you?
38:46I know.
38:47Check me out.
38:48Did you get a multicoloured cotton coat for your trouble?
38:50I did not get an elaborately multicoloured patterned cotton coat, sadly.
38:54I have, I did have supper with Maharaja in one of the Indian palaces I stayed in.
39:00That was quite exciting.
39:01I'll tell you what you get.
39:02You get in the crown dress, the spoon, the ampulla it's called.
39:06And it's the, well, it's the special spoon that they used to anoint the monarch.
39:09And it survived the Cromwell sort of act of vandalism.
39:13Why do you think that survived?
39:15Maybe because it's easy to hide.
39:16I don't know.
39:16Maybe because it's just a spoon and it's not blingy.
39:19I don't know.
39:19Maybe they just put it in their pocket or something.
39:22But it did survive.
39:23The paintings, obviously, I think the Royal Collection Trust is most famous for the amazing
39:27paintings they have.
39:29But one thing that I didn't know, actually, was that it's the world's largest group of
39:35Leonardo da Vinci drawings.
39:38More than 550 sheets, acquired largely by George III.
39:43And they're all held in Windsor.
39:45Blimey.
39:45I know.
39:46They do try every year.
39:48There is a big exhibition in Buckingham Palace as part of the opening of Buckingham Palace.
39:53And I think Buckingham Palace, as I think we've probably said before, Richard, it was opened
39:57in response to the Queen's Anna's Horribilis when she volunteered to start paying income tax
40:04because after Windsor Castle burned down.
40:06And so then the crown had to start making its own revenue.
40:10And the Royal Collection has been very, very successful in generating a huge amount of revenue
40:14for the sovereign part to pay the tax bill.
40:20And the opening of Buckingham Palace is a big part of that.
40:24You pay to go round.
40:25But it's only open for a certain type of year.
40:27It's opened in July and August when it's not used for diplomatic functions.
40:32But there's always a big exhibition every year.
40:34And I've seen the Leonardo da Vinci drawings, or at least some of them.
40:37It came up from the archive at Windsor Castle.
40:40And it is amazing to think that George III sent someone out to go and buy those.
40:46When we say cartoon, we don't mean Daffy Duck either.
40:49It's an art historical term.
40:51Also, did you know that Queen Victoria's wedding dress, I'd love to see that, the first white one.
40:56It's what made white popular for brides, was Queen Victoria wore white.
40:59Also, do you notice they keep their liveries from their royal servants, their old footman's uniforms?
41:04But we love to see that, don't we?
41:06Well, we do.
41:07In the exhibition for the late Queen's fashion is the royal christening robe.
41:13Now, Angela Kelly, who was the late Queen's dresser, has actually made a replica of the royal christening robe.
41:20But I think that was used for, has been used almost continuously for 140 years.
41:26And the original is there.
41:29And it is that kind of sense, isn't that?
41:31It really, clothes and fashion is often used, certainly, you know, like Queen Victoria's wedding dress or Elizabeth's with the
41:38christening robe.
41:39It's used to really kind of hammer home the point, isn't it, of stability, we're not going anywhere, don't melt,
41:46you can't melt down our crown.
41:47What's quite nice about the Royal Collection is that actually they go into the archives.
41:50And when we go into the Buckingham Palace shop or the Windsor Castle shop or the Balmoral shop, often the
41:58little sort of ornaments or the little Christmas tree decorations have been inspired by what's in the Royal Collection archives.
42:05They never have a clear out.
42:07Like the rest of us, they never, you know, get the kind of home clearance people around to sort it
42:10out.
42:10They need a Marie Kondo, they need a Marie Kondo, don't they?
42:13Well, they hang on to stuff, they hang on to stuff and that's unusual now.
42:17But also, is that not a good thing?
42:19That's a very good thing, I think.
42:21I spent a long time, Richard, trying to get into the wine cellars of Buckingham Palace.
42:26And maybe one day I will achieve that long-held aim.
42:33I'm with you, shoulder to shoulder on that one.
42:35And we will raise a glass if that ever happens.
42:39But I think that's all we've got time for this week.
42:42Don't forget, you can catch us every Thursday on YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts on Saturday on 5.
42:50And you can find us on social media, on Facebook and on Instagram.
42:54And if you are or do want to watch us on YouTube, please do like and subscribe.
43:01Have a great week.
43:02See you.
43:03Bye.
43:08Bye.
43:17Bye.
43:29Bye.
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