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Swindlers - Season 1 - Episode 03: A House of Cards
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00:01On a June morning in 2010, in a fine Georgian mansion over Merrion Square, the management of Custom House Capital
00:09made their way to the first floor boardroom.
00:13They were gathering for the last installment of a team building exercise.
00:18The management team was led by CHC's directors, Harry Cassidy, the chief executive, John White, the investment director, and John
00:27Mulholland, who had set up the firm with Cassidy a decade previously.
00:33Cassidy presented the analogy of a castle on a hill, a vision of what CHC would become.
00:40It was a sham. Cassidy's castle on the hill was more like pie in the sky.
00:49The office of the financial regulator, on which CHC depended for its license to operate, wanted to get rid of
00:56Cassidy.
00:57It feared for the safety of funds that clients had entrusted to CHC.
01:07The stuff going on in the background, Custom House Capital's dark secret, was that it was stealing from its clients'
01:16accounts.
01:35I'm not sure it would become a scrubber sinus device.
01:35I don't know how far in the background is a Following Bobe is a problem.
01:35There you are, I don't know, too, in the background where they were.
01:38It was very близ他, right?
01:38I learned a way around my heart for the last discipline.
01:38I'm not sure if Moglasse...
01:45...I'm so glad that these athletes believers I would be to.
01:47All before moving forward so we can Skill in a way to get rid of the history,
01:47I think a little bit better with them.
01:54Some of those who lost money in the collapse of Custom House Capital in 2011
01:58came to court for today's sentencing.
02:01Judge Orla Crowe said she had read more than 200 victim impact statements
02:05from former clients.
02:07Most were hardworking people who had carefully put aside money for their retirement.
02:12How did the central bank go into that company in 2009
02:15and those people were able to continue to do what they did?
02:18I don't think our investment went bad because it was a bad investment.
02:21I think our investment went bad because bad people took our money
02:25and did bad things with it.
02:26It's kind of shocking really when you think about it.
02:29You know, like I'd feel better if I'd been scammed by a fella on the end of the phone.
02:33The prosecution received victim impact statements from 197 people.
02:38Many of those who lost life savings they thought they had invested for their retirement
02:43came to court for the sentence hearing.
02:45What we had worked hard for all those decades was squandered by a handful of people.
02:50Some of their husbands committed suicide.
02:52Some people just gave up.
02:59I knew the life she'd lived and how hard she'd worked and her health condition.
03:04And to say to her,
03:06Helga, all your money is gone, just down a black hole,
03:09by a guy that you trusted with your life.
03:14The first email I got off the guards,
03:17it was addressed to their victim.
03:19And that hit me.
03:20Being called a victim.
03:22When you think about the scale of what was before us
03:25at the investigation stage,
03:26where there's potentially 2,700 investors,
03:29tens of millions of euros misappropriated,
03:31the book of evidence alone ran into 7,500 pages.
03:36It was an absolute huge investigation.
03:45The new Dundrum Town Centre stands on an 18-acre site.
03:49The first phase has taken almost five years to complete
03:52and local people queued from early morning to get their first look inside.
03:56I just want to see the shops, see all the nice things that's in the shops.
04:01At 10 o'clock, the waiting ended.
04:05I never thought I could live to either see the Lewis or to see the centre.
04:11It's absolutely marvellous.
04:15I had set up a business in 1995.
04:19So by the time 2005 and 2006 came along,
04:24the country was singing.
04:28The company was doing well
04:30and I was in a position to decide what I wanted to do with that money.
04:34Was I, you know, going to go mad and buy an Aston Martin
04:38or would I be sensible and put it into a pension fund?
04:42So a pension fund is what I ended up doing.
04:47The arrival of American multinationals had begun in a big way
04:52and then things were moving forward
04:54and they were moving forward most clearly in the property area.
05:00What was going on in Ireland at the stage was you're buying something today
05:04and you're selling it a month later, 30% more than you bought it
05:07and all this carry on.
05:09This morphed into a classic financial bubble
05:12where I haven't taken part in the bubble
05:15but my neighbour next door is now driving a spanking big new car
05:19and they're away on holidays half the time
05:22and my wife is looking at me saying,
05:25what's wrong with us?
05:25It's because we're not on property.
05:28Well, I had a pension advisor.
05:31Most of the property opportunities in Dublin, certainly,
05:36a lot of them were taken up.
05:38So he had said to me,
05:39there's this company has set up called Custom House Capital
05:43and they were looking at investing in property outside of Ireland.
05:49Established in 1997, Custom House Capital
05:53is one of Ireland's most dynamic wealth management companies
05:57and currently manages over 1 billion euros on behalf of clients.
06:02Their sales pitch was aggressive returns and growth.
06:05That was the pitch.
06:07So they went for that quite strongly and it worked.
06:10And people were attracted by it.
06:18My aunt was born in a city called Kiel in northern Germany.
06:22It's on the Baltic.
06:23She was born in 1928.
06:25The war broke out when she was 11 years old.
06:27She lost her mother at 12 years of age in the back of a truck.
06:31Bombed out city.
06:32Her father was quite elderly so she became a carer for him.
06:35My uncle, and he met this at that stage,
06:3817-year-old beautiful girl.
06:40Her father accepted my uncle
06:41because he was Irish rather than English.
06:43They married some years later
06:44and they rebuilt a little shop
06:47and she worked in that shop for 50 years,
06:496 in the morning until 6 in the evening.
06:53She loved Ireland, particularly Connemara.
06:56So they sold their business,
06:57brought their money to Dublin,
06:59put it into Guinness and Mahan Bank,
07:00which was the place you had a lump sum at the time.
07:03She met Harry Cassidy there.
07:04He was obviously dealt with her money.
07:07So he came from a business culture
07:08that would have been probably cavalier
07:10is probably the best term I could use to describe it.
07:13He came from Guinness and Mahan,
07:14which was Des Treynor,
07:15who was Charles Hawley's accountant
07:16and Tink Ansbacker accounts and offshore money.
07:19This afternoon, Sandra Kells of Guinness and Mahan Bank
07:22was explaining how they became embroiled
07:24with the Pruner brothers,
07:25Fernando and Andreas,
07:27who ran an organised crime ring in Miami, Florida.
07:30There was that kind of business culture at the time
07:32that he'd sprung up out of as well.
07:33He came in strong in the 70s and 80s.
07:35He was an ambitious guy.
07:36He was known as a business development guy,
07:38not a technocrat,
07:38and that stood to him in those times.
07:42Business was founded by my grandfather in 1949.
07:45It was a drinks wholesale business
07:48serving pubs and clubs and hotels in County Kildare.
07:51Both my dad and his brother
07:53and my grandfather ran the business successfully
07:55for a long number of years.
07:56They had an accountant
07:57and Roy advised them
08:00to start planning for post-retirement
08:03or for the future.
08:04Introduced them to Jamal Holland
08:06and Harry Cassidy.
08:08Harry was in Guinness and Mahan at the time,
08:10the bank,
08:10and some investments were made, obviously,
08:13and they grew quite, quite well.
08:18I was with the Investment Bank of Ireland.
08:20My husband also worked in the same institution,
08:22which, to quote the promo at the time,
08:25was the merchant banking arm
08:26of the Bank of Ireland group.
08:28So that was the start of the relationship with Harry.
08:30He was with the investment department
08:32for quite a few years,
08:33and then he left and he went to Guinness and Mahan.
08:37To best my knowledge,
08:38he didn't have a college education.
08:39He did the Institute of Taxation exams
08:41and excelled at them,
08:42as far as I'm aware.
08:44But, yeah,
08:45so he would have been straight out of school
08:46and into the bank.
08:47He did have a great way with clients,
08:49very good way with clients,
08:50and clients trusted him.
08:53I had transferred funds
08:55that I had come into
08:56as a result of the death of my husband.
08:58I transferred those
08:59to Guinness Man
09:01under Harry's guidance, if you like.
09:04And you trusted him?
09:05Oh, implicitly.
09:07Implicitly.
09:09Like a lot of Irish people at the time,
09:11it was based on relationships.
09:12It was based on trust.
09:13It was based on a point of contact.
09:15I suppose maybe 20 or 30 or 40 years before that,
09:19it was if you were a small-town business person in Ireland,
09:22if the bank manager came to you
09:23and said you should invest in this product,
09:25that's what you did
09:26because you trusted a bank manager.
09:291980s, 1990s,
09:30there was a lot of big institutions
09:32that would have invested in pension management.
09:34The economy was becoming buoyant
09:35and probably thought,
09:36why am I working here
09:37or why am I giving two-thirds of this away
09:39when theoretically I can set up my own shop,
09:42keep it for myself
09:42and build out a business
09:43that's going to be worth something down the line.
09:45Harry was great, great fun,
09:48very good sense of humour,
09:49short fuse.
09:50When he exploded, he exploded.
09:52I mean, he had a bit of the small man syndrome,
09:55but he didn't have in stature.
09:57He made up for in taxation expertise,
10:01running into investment expertise
10:03and arrogance.
10:05Hi, Harry Cassidy from Custom House Capital Limited
10:08with another thought for the day.
10:10Did you know that Donald Trump
10:11is worth around $2.6 billion
10:13and that if you laid his money in dollar bills end-to-end,
10:17it would stretch all the way to the moon
10:18with a bit to spare?
10:20So what does this have to do
10:21with Custom House Capital Limited?
10:22Well, chances are you feel your pension fund
10:25wouldn't even stretch into the middle of next week,
10:27which is why it would be a rather good idea
10:29to call us today.
10:30Custom House Capital Limited
10:32is regulated by the Financial Regulator
10:33under Section 10
10:34of the Investment Intermediaries Act 1995.
10:37Because they'd obviously dealt with him
10:38in Guinness Man,
10:39they thought Harry is the man,
10:41so they sent their money forward to Dublin
10:43with the intention of buying a house here
10:44or building a house.
10:45So she trusted him implicitly.
10:47They had strong brands and relationships
10:50coming from Guinness and Matin
10:52and a few other institutions,
10:53so they came together as John Mulholland,
10:56who was a non-executive director
10:57and a chairman,
10:57Harry Cassidy as the CEO
10:59and a few people they brought with them
11:00at an executive level as well.
11:02So for the first few years,
11:02they were successful,
11:03but it was hard not to be successful
11:05if you were a stable enough business
11:06during that period of time
11:07because there was a lot of money
11:08and cash coming into the economy.
11:16The Custom House Capital investigation
11:18was certainly one of the most
11:20complex investigations ever undertaken
11:23by the Guard of the National Economic Crime Bureau.
11:25I think ultimately 100 people came forward
11:27and actually made statements.
11:29And then you have to involve
11:31every aspect of their investment
11:33with that particular firm,
11:34how it was handled,
11:35how it was organised,
11:37messaging they received
11:39from Customs House Capital and staff.
11:41A lot of victims didn't come forward.
11:43But in fraud investigations in particular,
11:45it's not unusual for victims
11:47to not come forward.
11:49Victims sometimes feel ashamed,
11:51they're embarrassed,
11:52they don't want their business known.
11:54It took 12 years from the point
11:56of when it officially stopped
11:57for people to go to jail.
11:58Why was that?
11:59Because it took so long
12:01to unravel the complexity
12:02of what they did.
12:04There was so much data,
12:05electronic data,
12:06retrieved as part of that investigation
12:08on servers
12:09and on different computers.
12:10And it required
12:11a particular data processing
12:13that was not available
12:14to GNECB at that time.
12:16And for that reason,
12:17the case was put on hold
12:19pending the receipt of that report.
12:21It wasn't, you know,
12:23people of extreme wealth
12:24from a lot of the people
12:25we spoke to
12:26throughout the investigation.
12:28They'd lost
12:29very modest amount of money
12:30that they thought they could use
12:31for later in their life.
12:33And it was the absolute stress
12:35that people were put under
12:37as a result of this.
12:45We started contributing
12:46to pension
12:46kind of in the mid-90s.
12:49By 2006,
12:50you know,
12:50the business was going
12:51really well here.
12:52And of course,
12:52when you're self-employed
12:53and you have any relationship
12:55with any insurance company
12:56of any kind,
12:57they're always knocking on the door.
12:58And so one day
12:59they knocked on the door
13:00and said,
13:01you've some cash in your pension.
13:03Why don't you
13:04buy a pension property?
13:05Because Charlie McCreevey
13:06has changed the rules.
13:07You can put any asset
13:07you want into your pension.
13:09Why don't you do this?
13:11I did get a pension off
13:12in computer type
13:13in Marion Square.
13:15Pat, the boss,
13:15he put me onto the pension scheme.
13:17You left that job
13:18around 2,000, was it?
13:19He retired,
13:20so he was shutting it down.
13:21And what was in the pension pot then?
13:2549,200.
13:27When I set up my own business
13:28back in the 80s,
13:30it was fairly successful,
13:33fairly quickly.
13:34Then eventually
13:35we had been introduced
13:37to the idea
13:38of setting up
13:39a personal pension.
13:41and that would have
13:42led me
13:42to Canada Life.
13:44Over a number of decades,
13:46we had
13:47saved
13:47something in the order
13:49of
13:52475,000.
13:54And so Canada Life,
13:56who were our
13:56pension provider
13:57at the time,
13:58appointed a trustee
13:59for this property
14:00that we were buying.
14:01And the trustee
14:01they were appointed
14:02were Custom House Capital.
14:03We never knew
14:04who they were.
14:05We'd never heard
14:06of them before.
14:07They start building
14:08relationships
14:08within the
14:09intermediary community,
14:10the financial advice community,
14:11the accountancy community,
14:12the Canada Life's
14:13of the world,
14:13and start bringing
14:14and say,
14:15well, if you introduce
14:15a client to this,
14:16we'll pay you a commission,
14:18a fee,
14:18whatever it's going to be.
14:19And that'll be part
14:20of the portfolio
14:21that you'll have with them.
14:22But they would still
14:23be the client
14:24of the Canada Life agent
14:25at the time.
14:26And it would have been
14:27a product they were investing in.
14:28So they wouldn't have been
14:29a Custom House Capital
14:30client per se,
14:31but parallel to that,
14:32Custom House Capital
14:32were bringing in
14:33their own clients directly.
14:35Joe came in
14:35and he told me
14:36that he had an investment
14:37that he thought
14:38I might be interested in.
14:39He said,
14:39this one is really good.
14:40I would recommend
14:41that you join.
14:42He said,
14:43in fact,
14:43I'm in it myself.
14:44Like, you know what I mean?
14:45He says,
14:45lots of my friends
14:47had gotten involved
14:47in the SSIAs
14:50and I was too cautious
14:53to get involved.
14:54The broker,
14:55he assured us
14:56that Custom House Capital
14:59were the top people
15:00and I was brought down,
15:02introduced to them.
15:03It was all very impressive stuff.
15:05Met John Mulholland
15:06in particular,
15:06never met Harry Cassidy.
15:09And that was it,
15:10really.
15:11There was nothing more to it.
15:12You just sign this
15:14and we look after everything else.
15:17Custom House Capital Limited
15:18is regulated
15:18by the Financial Regulator
15:19under Section 10
15:20of the Investment Intermediaries Act 1995.
15:23Authorised,
15:24regulated,
15:25central bank.
15:26Like,
15:27why would you suspect
15:28that there was anything
15:30untoward here at all?
15:38CHC's basic fundraising model
15:41for themselves
15:42as a corporate entity
15:44was based primarily
15:45on a 5% upfront commission
15:48on any monies invested with them.
15:51So if you invested $100,000,
15:53they would take $5,000
15:55as commission.
15:55That's a pretty aggressive,
15:57juicy commission.
15:58But it allowed
16:01CHC then
16:02offer
16:03very extravagant
16:04junkets
16:05and incentives
16:06to try to get money in.
16:08And then on top of that,
16:09they were getting commission
16:10and the monies invested
16:11in the property.
16:12They were good
16:13at bringing clients on board.
16:15They recognised this
16:16within each other.
16:17They both liked to
16:18go off
16:19and play golf together.
16:20and John had a place
16:21down in Mount Juliet.
16:22It was the ultimate junket.
16:24And it was part of the era
16:26at the time,
16:27you know,
16:27that you had to look
16:28after your clients.
16:30There was games of golf,
16:31there was dinners,
16:32there was nights out,
16:33there was social gatherings
16:35between John Mulholland
16:37and his wife
16:39and my mother
16:40and my father as well,
16:41who obviously
16:42would listen intently
16:44to the advice
16:45that John would give
16:46and trusted him
16:47implicitly
16:48on whatever he might
16:49suggest they should do
16:50and what products
16:51they should invest into
16:53as such.
16:54The Customised Capital
16:55Prime Property Fund
16:56number two
16:57has just been launched.
16:58What benefits exactly
16:59does that offer
17:00to investors?
17:01As with the CHC
17:02Prime Property Fund one,
17:04it offers investors
17:05diversification
17:06and the same
17:07great range of benefits.
17:08They love to have
17:09that image of
17:10look at us
17:11and we're successful.
17:12And how would you
17:13describe, you know?
17:14Suave.
17:16Loved himself.
17:17Loved the
17:18man-about-town image.
17:20I remember my dad
17:21saying to me
17:22that they had bought
17:22this premise
17:23on Merriott Square,
17:24this big Georgian
17:25double-fronted premise,
17:27high ceilings
17:28and antique furniture
17:29and that where was
17:30all this money
17:31obviously coming from.
17:32Surely the fees
17:32weren't that good
17:33to obviously create
17:34that level of
17:36investment
17:36in a business premise.
17:38The high up-front fee
17:41couldn't have happened
17:42without the
17:43expectation
17:44of very high
17:45investment returns
17:46and they couldn't
17:47have realistically
17:48been offered
17:48at that time
17:50on anything other
17:50than property assets
17:51which had had
17:52a very long period
17:54of sustained build-ups.
17:56And in an environment
17:57where asset values
18:00are rising
18:01by between 15%
18:02and 20%,
18:03my instinct is less
18:05to worry about
18:05the size of the 5% commission
18:07than to say,
18:08hurry up and get
18:09the money committed.
18:10Don't leave me
18:11out of the race.
18:12I think it would be
18:13safe to save
18:13between pre-retirement
18:15and post-retirement.
18:16The value of the funds
18:17was definitely
18:18over a million,
18:191.2, 1.5 million.
18:21But it fuels the bubble
18:23and it reinforces
18:24the bubble
18:24and it reinforces
18:25the danger of the bubble
18:26because now we've got
18:27a bunch of investors
18:28who have used
18:30borrowings to get in here
18:31and if the asset value
18:33drops,
18:34the risk that they
18:36have negative equity
18:37inflicted on them
18:38suddenly rises.
18:39They started sending me
18:41updates from CHC
18:44which, strange enough,
18:46made me feel more secure.
18:48Over two years,
18:50the years 2006-2007,
18:52I put in what was
18:55a high five-figure sum.
18:59Here we are in 2025
19:03and I have never seen
19:05one cent of that money.
19:17This is the first ever
19:19detailed breakdown
19:20of the Irish mortgage market
19:21and it shows a surprisingly
19:22strong level of activity.
19:24If you go to a party
19:26on a Saturday night,
19:27the party starts at 10 o'clock.
19:29At one in the morning,
19:30you could justifiably
19:31wander around the party
19:33handing out
19:33alcohol awareness leaflets,
19:35but nobody's going
19:36to thank you for it.
19:38And if you're in
19:39bubble lift-off mode,
19:42people do not want
19:43to hear the warnings.
19:46Germany's decentralised
19:47property market
19:48is booming.
19:50Through our association
19:51with Berendez and partners,
19:53we identified the potential
19:54of the German commercial
19:55property market
19:56over two years ago.
19:57It was good marketing
19:58to say,
19:59we're not going to put
20:00all of our eggs
20:01into the Irish property
20:03market basket.
20:04We're going to spread
20:05them across Europe.
20:06Just one kilometre
20:08from Hamburg City
20:09on Heidenkamp's
20:11Weig,
20:12our award
20:12specification office.
20:15Before completion,
20:16a large number
20:17of renowned
20:17Colorado.
20:19What type of investors
20:21are you looking for?
20:22Are you looking for
20:22individual investors
20:23and perhaps a range
20:25of pension funds?
20:25It's open to all types
20:27of investments,
20:27private clients,
20:29pension funds,
20:30approved retirement funds
20:31and even company monies.
20:32The theory was
20:33they bought a building,
20:35they used your funds
20:36as part payment
20:38for the building,
20:39they took a mortgage
20:40for the rest of it,
20:41it was paid back
20:41over seven years
20:42and then technically
20:43after the seven years
20:44they sold the building
20:45and when our profit
20:46was made was distributed
20:47back through the pensions
20:48then,
20:49pro-rata.
20:50How many people?
20:51It was ten.
20:53To what value?
20:56680,000
20:57when it was transferred
20:57as far as I'm aware.
20:59Instead of sticking
21:00with what they knew
21:01and which they had
21:03a good history with,
21:04they decided,
21:05you know,
21:06we can,
21:07I don't know,
21:08conquer the world
21:09or whatever they were thinking,
21:09I don't know,
21:10but like setting up
21:12the fund to buy
21:13a shopping centre
21:14in Munich.
21:16The pair of them,
21:17and there would have been
21:18a pair of them in it,
21:20whole apartment blocks
21:21in Spain,
21:23wanted bigger and better.
21:25Statements were issued,
21:27they'd come in the post.
21:28Once a year,
21:29my dad would meet
21:29with John Mulholland.
21:30It would be kind of
21:31a semi-formal review.
21:33Every couple of months
21:34we would get a statement
21:35for each person
21:36who was in the pension.
21:37What was being projected
21:38by, say,
21:39John Mulholland
21:39when you were sitting
21:40in the boardroom?
21:41Everything is fine.
21:42Don't worry about it.
21:43Your dad's investments
21:45are secure.
21:46He had lots of
21:48high-profile,
21:49established business people
21:51that were obviously
21:51investing in CHC products.
21:54So what's good for the goose
21:55is good for the gander
21:56in some respect.
21:57The jaw-dropping slide
21:59in Irish bank shares today
22:00is unprecedented
22:01for recent times.
22:03It was Warren Buffett
22:05who said that
22:06it's only when the tide goes out
22:08that we get to see
22:10who's been swimming naked.
22:12And the global property rise,
22:15that peaked 2007, 2008.
22:19And because so many people
22:21had borrowed money
22:23to take part in this,
22:25financial leverage
22:26worked against people
22:27on the way down.
22:28And that turned a lot of people
22:30into negative equity positions.
22:32And then whoever had lent to them
22:34had to foreclose on them.
22:35The fear is
22:36the cancer has spread
22:37to the heart of European banking.
22:39Anybody with a bit of insert
22:41of knowledge,
22:41knew the writing was on the wall
22:42and taking clients' monies in
22:44at that stage
22:44would have been, you know,
22:45a problem.
22:47He came and had
22:49this investment proposal
22:51and that's what
22:52the Destiny 119 Property Fund
22:55was presented to us.
22:57And he asked us
22:58if we were interested
22:59in using some of the cash
23:00that was still in our pension.
23:01They were looking for more money
23:03than we were prepared to put in.
23:05They wanted 50,000
23:06from each of us,
23:07myself, my husband, both.
23:08So we got seats
23:10from Canada Life
23:10for the 25,000
23:12that was paid into this fund.
23:14So Canada Life
23:14weren't running that fund then?
23:16They were selling it.
23:18And everybody was told
23:19something different.
23:20I mean, one gentleman,
23:21he was told the minimum
23:22for that fund
23:23was 350,000.
23:25And that's what he put into it.
23:27Then there was a group of people
23:28and they had a company pension.
23:30And each of them
23:31individually put in money.
23:32But all of them thought
23:33they were dealing
23:34with something
23:35that Canada Life itself
23:37was guaranteeing
23:38and selling.
23:39Other pension people
23:40who are in this game
23:41many years have told me
23:43we would never
23:44advise people of your age
23:46to move your pension
23:47at that stage.
23:48You were too old.
23:51Starting in 08
23:52and onwards into 09
23:53or 10 or 11,
23:54CHC's supposed
23:55those at property diversification
23:58expeditions to Italy,
24:00Germany, France, wherever.
24:01They were now losing money
24:03even though Harry Cassidy
24:06wished to present
24:06to the outside world
24:08a picture
24:08everything is well.
24:10And it must have been that
24:12which spurred him
24:13to take money
24:14from healthy funds
24:15to prop up unhealthy funds.
24:18Customers Capital
24:19did not have the permission
24:20to move client monies
24:21into different funds
24:23or different products
24:23without their consent
24:24or instruction.
24:26That's written instruction
24:27to do that.
24:28Is he firefighting
24:28at this time?
24:29Yes.
24:31And spinning plates
24:32in the air
24:33and running from one plate
24:35to the other
24:35to keep it spinning.
24:37He may have thought
24:38at the time
24:39that the drop
24:40in property values
24:41being experienced
24:42in 07 and 08
24:43would reverse themselves
24:45and that he was doing
24:47his investors a favour
24:49by keeping the show
24:51on the road.
24:52I think there was
24:53one or two meetings
24:54I was definitely at
24:55in the boardroom
24:56in the front of the building
24:56overlooking Merrion Square.
24:58We were going on
24:59what was printed
25:00on the reports
25:01and in relation
25:02to the true value
25:03that was obviously there.
25:04He was effectively stealing.
25:06The second problem
25:07he had was
25:07that the drop
25:09in property values
25:10continued
25:10and further exposed
25:12the financial fraud
25:14that lay at the heart
25:16of what he was doing.
25:22What we have here
25:23is the original servers
25:24from Custom House Capital.
25:26These servers
25:26were seized by GardaÃ
25:28in 2011
25:28under a court order.
25:30They contained
25:31obviously a huge amount
25:32of information
25:32relevant to our investigation.
25:34Because of the volume
25:35of data
25:35and the multiplicity
25:36of the victims
25:37that led to
25:38a decision
25:39that we needed
25:40to look for
25:41external support
25:42using a data analysis tool
25:45that was not available
25:45to GECB at that time.
25:47And so the report
25:49will be got us
25:49around 2020 or 2021.
25:51It can be quite daunting
25:52at the start
25:52when you look at
25:53terabytes of information.
25:55You go,
25:55my God,
25:55how are we going
25:56to make sense of this?
25:57But you have to come up
25:58with a process
25:58as an investigation team
25:59on what we're going to do,
26:01how we're going to
26:01catalogue evidence,
26:02how we're going
26:02to identify evidence.
26:04Each individual member
26:05of the team
26:05reviewed a report
26:06and we had a meeting
26:07that were gone
26:08for about three hours.
26:09As we had the meeting
26:10we would look
26:10at some of the evidence
26:12that we had available,
26:13some of the data.
26:14Custom House Capital
26:15used a system
26:15called Unity
26:16and what essentially was
26:18it was a system
26:19that was a ledger
26:20that they could keep track
26:22of where investors' money was.
26:24We were also able
26:25to reconstruct
26:26the email server
26:27and we could see
26:28what people were saying
26:30to each other
26:30in and around the time
26:31that this was going on.
26:32The approach
26:32that was taken
26:33at the beginning
26:33is that we look
26:35at one injured party,
26:36look what happened
26:36to their money
26:37and treat that one transaction
26:39as a fraud
26:40or a theft.
26:41But when we actually
26:42realised that
26:44there was simply
26:45going to be
26:45too many transactions
26:46to do that
26:47in Custom House Capital
26:48it would have been
26:49thousands of transactions.
26:50That's when the focus
26:51turned to the email traffic.
26:53Who was speaking
26:54to who
26:55and who was in charge
26:57and what role
26:58did each person play.
26:59There was people involved
27:01that were doing
27:01certain things
27:02that they probably
27:02shouldn't have been
27:03but they mightn't have been
27:04aware of the greater picture.
27:05But certainly
27:06the heads of CHC
27:07knew exactly
27:08what was going on
27:08and that was evident
27:09from the emails.
27:10At the end of that meeting
27:11we decided
27:13that we were going
27:13to investigate it
27:14as a conspiracy
27:15among the senior management
27:16rather than
27:18deceptions
27:19of 73 individuals.
27:20The whole focus
27:21of the case
27:22changed thereafter.
27:29So before
27:30even we talk
27:30about how money
27:31was lost
27:31the foundations
27:32were quite shaky
27:33in how they were managed
27:34as well
27:34because the regulation regime
27:36in 2007
27:37when this all started
27:38to happen
27:38wasn't as strong
27:39as it is now.
27:40But at that time
27:41it was like the Wild West.
27:43In the regulators' checks
27:46in 2007
27:47four years
27:49before this
27:49blew public
27:50four million
27:51of differences
27:53between
27:54what some accounts
27:55said were in them
27:56and what was actually
27:57in them
27:58were identified.
27:59It should have been
28:00absolutely glass clear
28:01to the auditors
28:01that these records
28:03are in a mess.
28:05My husband's
28:06a photographer
28:07and he went
28:08to a lot
28:08of social events
28:09he photographed
28:09a lot of
28:10you know
28:10prize givings
28:11at various
28:12fancy golf clubs
28:13and things like that.
28:14He met one of
28:15one of the directors
28:16who subsequently
28:17was jailed
28:18and he knew
28:19that we had cash
28:20in our pension.
28:21Now Barry didn't know
28:22that we had cash
28:22in our pension
28:23but this guy
28:24knew that we had cash
28:26in our pension
28:26and then eventually
28:28we were approached
28:29by somebody acting
28:30on behalf of
28:30Custom House Capital
28:31through Canada Life.
28:33They were desperate
28:34to get money in
28:35and I don't think
28:35they were able
28:36to get enough money
28:37from dealing
28:37with direct clients.
28:53I suppose
28:54at the start
28:55of the investigation
28:55we have to figure out
28:57who's involved
28:58who's a suspect
28:59who's a staff member
29:00so we have to get
29:01an overall picture
29:02of the inner workings
29:04of Custom House Capital
29:05but we could tell
29:06from the outset
29:07that the main people
29:08involved
29:09appeared to be
29:10Harry Cassidy,
29:11John White,
29:12John Mulholland
29:13and Paul Lavery
29:14also held a key role
29:16as the financial controller
29:17within the company.
29:18When we look
29:19at the actual scheme
29:20of what was going on
29:21it was essentially
29:22where clients
29:23would be given
29:24valuation reports.
29:25The Destiny Equity Fund
29:26had 32 million
29:28in it at one stage.
29:29What these valuation reports
29:30would say to the client
29:31is that this is how
29:32your money's performing,
29:34this is where
29:35your funds are.
29:36When CHC started
29:37to chase
29:37they started
29:39cashing the equity fund
29:40without the client's
29:41consent or knowledge
29:42moving this cash
29:43across here.
29:44Every couple of months
29:45we would get a statement
29:46for each person
29:47who was in the pension.
29:48I was getting an update
29:49from Canada Life
29:51which is the most
29:52peculiar thing.
29:53So this Velovus bond
29:54here was moved out
29:55into what's called
29:56a special purpose vehicle
29:57an SPV
29:58and this could have been
30:00for a property
30:01in Germany.
30:02Their funds
30:03had to be removed
30:05from what we could see
30:06were property funds
30:07in Europe.
30:08The funds were then
30:09placed in the correct place
30:11where the investor
30:12thought they should have been
30:13and once they had done that
30:14they would run
30:15the valuation report.
30:17Paul Lavery
30:18would calculate
30:19fictitious interest
30:20which would also
30:21be included
30:22on the valuation report
30:23that went to the investor.
30:24So the investor
30:25would get their
30:26valuation report
30:26and be happy
30:27and confident
30:28that my money
30:29is performing well.
30:30Then falsified assets
30:32because none of the money
30:33is where it should have been
30:34in cash or in equities.
30:36And the investor
30:37would obviously have
30:37absolutely no knowledge
30:38of this whatsoever.
30:47There's so many people
30:48involved in the company.
30:50How do you hide
30:50something on this
30:51level?
30:52How do you hide it?
30:53And what we believe
30:54is that the pop-up system
30:56on the internal
30:58CHC computer
30:59was the way
31:00the fraud was concealed.
31:01So I'm just looking
31:03at one particular note here.
31:05When you type
31:05the client's name in
31:06it will say
31:07please contact
31:08Harry or Paul
31:09before issuing
31:10any valuations.
31:12That raises
31:13our suspicion
31:13of surely
31:14you know
31:15if an investor
31:15called CHC
31:17they can be advised
31:18of their
31:19account status
31:20without having to go
31:21to the head
31:22of the company.
31:22There's a note on it
31:24client should not be
31:25in Quiff 2 investment.
31:27These need to be
31:27backed out
31:28to run
31:29evaluation
31:30as per PL
31:31which we believe
31:31is Paul Lavery
31:32and he will calculate
31:34what interest is due.
31:35As we were going
31:36through the email traffic
31:37we can see
31:39a recurring
31:40phrases
31:41for want of a better word
31:42and one of them
31:43was the term
31:43needs to be
31:44backed out.
31:45So we could search
31:46that term
31:47on the email servers
31:48looking for
31:49backed out
31:49and what we did
31:50discover was
31:51it was instructions
31:52being given
31:53to back clients
31:54out
31:54so they could
31:55run reports
31:55to deceive
31:56the clients
31:56and once that
31:57was done
31:57the money
31:58was returned.
31:58But there was
31:59another example
32:00of an email
32:01can you do
32:01your magic
32:02on this account
32:03as the client
32:04is showing
32:04an investment
32:05in property.
32:06Client is showing
32:07an investment
32:07in property
32:08well why should
32:09a client be
32:09showing an investment
32:10in property
32:10unless he's
32:11actually invested
32:12in property.
32:12So I think
32:13that kind of
32:14one email alone
32:15nearly set the tone
32:16of what was actually
32:17going on at the time
32:18and the scale
32:18of what was going
32:19on at the time.
32:27In 2009
32:28the Century Bank
32:29sent an inspector
32:29into CHC
32:30and they also
32:32restricted CHC
32:34from taking on
32:34new investment
32:36monies.
32:37In the investment
32:37world that's the
32:38equivalent of a
32:38yellow card.
32:39Now at that point
32:40in time
32:40with 1.1 billion
32:42of assets
32:43under management
32:44with 320 properties
32:46with 40 funds
32:47it was a complicated
32:49labyrinth
32:49of a business
32:50already
32:50but only 20%
32:51of that business
32:52was actually
32:52the regulated side
32:53so the central bank
32:54had no idea
32:55what was going on
32:56on the unregulated side
32:57and there's paper trails
32:58saying that's not
32:59our problem.
33:02And then they found
33:04that monies
33:06had been taken
33:07from Fund A
33:07to prop up Fund B.
33:09So their solution
33:10was to try
33:10and sell
33:11that part
33:11of the business
33:12customer's capital
33:12the regulated entity
33:13to Appian Asset Management
33:15at one stage
33:15like that was
33:16a terrible solution
33:17Appian Asset Management
33:18in good faith
33:19took the leap
33:19and did that
33:20in 2009-2010.
33:22Definitely around the time
33:23that Appian
33:23were looking at
33:24buying into CHC
33:26I think John
33:27probably spoke
33:28to my dad
33:28in relation to
33:29you know
33:29we're looking to
33:30sell the business on
33:31or there's going to be
33:32a change in ownership
33:33on it.
33:33It took one of the
33:34staff members
33:35to actually just raise
33:35their hands
33:36and say
33:36there's an issue here
33:37and then
33:38yeah it was.
33:41Angela Mahon
33:42she took up
33:43a position
33:44in customers capital
33:45in 2007
33:46and she was promoted
33:47in 2008
33:49to head of finance
33:50and operations
33:50so she was at
33:51a more senior level
33:52and she attended
33:54a meeting
33:54where there was
33:55a discussion
33:55on a shortfall
33:57in an investment
33:58in property
33:59in Germany
34:00something around
34:0111 million
34:01she realised
34:02that they didn't
34:03have the money
34:04to meet that shortfall
34:05and she learned
34:06that money
34:07was being taken
34:07from clients
34:09accounts
34:09she said
34:10that was wrong
34:11and she contested
34:11that with the
34:12senior managers
34:12basically she was
34:13overruled by the
34:14senior management team
34:15and she decided
34:17that she couldn't
34:18put up with this
34:19and she resigned
34:20her position
34:21she was asked
34:22by two of the
34:23senior managers
34:23not to resign
34:24one actually said
34:26you're only a young
34:27person
34:27you have to realise
34:28there's a
34:29commercial reality
34:30sometimes
34:31and when that
34:32commercial reality
34:33is there
34:33integrity goes out
34:34the window
34:34she left
34:35in late 2008
34:37and in 2009
34:38she actually had
34:39to contact
34:40CAC to get her
34:41P45
34:42and in that
34:43conversation
34:43with the senior
34:44manager
34:44she asked
34:46had the situation
34:47been resolved
34:48and it had not
34:49and at that point
34:50she made a disclosure
34:51to the financial
34:53regulator
34:53and then she
34:55cooperated fully
34:56with the guard
34:56investigation
34:56in terms of
34:57as a witness
35:00I was in a car
35:01and I started
35:02reading it
35:03it possibly
35:03mentioned
35:04liquidation
35:04and I just
35:06messaged
35:06Harry immediately
35:08just
35:09what the fuck
35:11and he came
35:12back
35:12to all run
35:13out of proportion
35:14nothing to be
35:15worried about
35:15whatsoever
35:18and we now
35:18know of course
35:19that was
35:19the top
35:20of the slope
35:50custom house
35:51good afternoon
35:52good afternoon
35:52how's the phone
35:53go
35:53are you a victim
35:54of custom house
35:55capital
35:56absolutely
35:56totally
35:57but it was a huge
35:58scam from day one
35:59because the financial
36:00staples we used to get
36:01every six months
36:02were falsified
36:04the shareholders
36:05people who ran the firm
36:05were very you know
36:06well known
36:07they were recognised
36:08in the industry
36:09you know
36:09John Mulholland
36:09John White
36:10Harry Catsby
36:11custom house capital
36:12got over 1 billion
36:13from investors
36:36what about you Patrick
36:38have you told your friends
36:39no I haven't
36:40why not
36:41it would be very embarrassing
36:43well I wouldn't be
36:44embarrassed about it
36:45well Patrick
36:45you say you stand
36:46to lose your house
36:47at the end of the month
36:48well I could
36:49I mean we're sending
36:50people to jail
36:50for not taking
36:51TV fees
36:52and all these people
36:53are walking
36:54about scot-free
36:54after throwing away
36:56millions
36:56on people
36:57at their pensions
36:58their life scheme
36:59you're going to lose
36:59your house
37:00out in the street
37:01your bare feet
37:02scandalous
37:03the country
37:03is so corrupt
37:04what's the first inkling
37:06how did you find out
37:08Joe Duffy
37:09I was sitting
37:10listening to Joe Duffy
37:11look once I had
37:12established it was
37:13my investment
37:14I kind of
37:14knocked off Joe Duffy
37:16and said I got on the phone
37:17and basically he just told me
37:19there's no money in this field
37:21you will get nothing back
37:22and he was quite blunt about it
37:25when did you first hear
37:26about something?
37:27well shortly after
37:28John White
37:28told my aunt
37:29he'd send her a cheque
37:30there was no indication
37:32right up to that minute
37:33but Christ
37:34of all the people
37:35I know in life
37:35how hard this money
37:37was earned
37:37every day grinding away
37:39getting up at all
37:40hours in the morning
37:40and to lose it all
37:41just like that
37:42the regulator was
37:43writing letters
37:44to Custom House Capital
37:45long before we ever
37:46transferred our pensions
37:47to them
37:47had we known that
37:48we would have never done it
37:50but we didn't know
37:51there were so many people
37:52who didn't do their job properly
37:53coming back to Central Bank
37:54and not actually managing
37:55the business
37:56and the pensions authority
37:57did all these people
37:59fail at what they did
38:00there was an environment
38:01there that allowed
38:02these people to do
38:03the things they were going to do
38:09so there was a number
38:10of arrests
38:11carried out
38:12as part of the investigation
38:13Harry Cassidy
38:14Paul Lavery
38:15and John White
38:16were arrested
38:17in 2012
38:18initially
38:19but again
38:20there was a second round
38:21of arrests
38:21conducted in 2019
38:23and that was obviously
38:24done at a time
38:24when the investigation team
38:26had built up
38:27a lot more knowledge
38:28of what actually went on
38:29the Dublin District Court
38:30heard that
38:31the three men
38:31were all arrested
38:32in Dublin earlier today
38:33by the Garda National
38:35Economic Crime Bureau
38:36John Mulholland
38:37was arrested in 2019
38:38Paul Lavery
38:39was arrested again
38:40in 2019
38:41John White
38:42was also arrested
38:43again in 2019
38:44we had sought
38:45to arrest
38:46Harry Cassidy
38:47again in 2019
38:48but he wouldn't present
38:50to Garda
38:51voluntarily
38:52to be arrested
38:55where was he?
38:56he was in Germany
38:57at the time
38:57and what was he doing there?
38:59I believe
39:00possibly
39:01he was teaching
39:02English
39:02as a foreign language
39:03the court heard
39:04John Mulholland
39:05John White
39:06and Paul Lavery
39:07made no reply
39:08when charged
39:08he was ultimately
39:09arrested by the German police
39:11I believe he spent
39:12approximately about
39:12three months
39:13in custody in Germany
39:14but in the end
39:15he decided to
39:17return back
39:18to this jurisdiction
39:19where he was met
39:19and ultimately charged
39:26after it all collapsed
39:28with Custom House capital
39:29and the liquidators
39:30moved in
39:31I used to receive
39:32a letter
39:32every year
39:33the balance
39:36was zero
39:37I don't know
39:38the story
39:38of how these properties
39:40ended up being sold
39:40the way they were
39:41for as little as they were
39:42the buildings
39:43the buildings are still there
39:44the rent
39:45is still there
39:46so therefore
39:47there's no reason
39:49why there should be
39:49a problem
39:49with any of these things
39:51but of course
39:51with the times
39:52that were in it
39:53they become a fire sale
39:54yeah we got 550 euros
39:56each back
39:57that's it
39:59and for the regulated side
40:01where people had money
40:02in regulated investments
40:03there's a thing called
40:04the investor compensation fund
40:05the maximum that the investor compensation fund
40:08can pay out
40:09is 20,000 per investor
40:11and people may have had
40:14savings from an entire lifetime
40:16that had to look after them
40:18in their old age
40:20parked in CHC
40:22and to have that so sharply reduced
40:24probably would unleash
40:27medical symptoms in some of them
40:32her health was failing
40:33she'd been in hospital several times
40:35now
40:37my fear was
40:37we'd get the phone call
40:38to say she's fallen
40:39and that then
40:40I would get calls to say
40:42we need money to pay
40:43for her nursing home
40:45now God forbid
40:45had she ever rung me
40:47and said Nick
40:48get on to Harry
40:49and tell him
40:49I need 10 grand
40:50or 20 grand
40:52I would have had to say to her
40:53Helga
40:54there is no 10 or 20 grand
40:56now how could you say that
40:57to somebody
40:57who built her
40:59this was her life
41:00the fear that the phone would bring
41:02because she was very unwell
41:03she was finally brought into hospital
41:05during Covid
41:06and she died there alone
41:07so only the hospital staff
41:08we rang
41:09but they said
41:09there's no point in coming over
41:10and that's what frightened me most
41:12in the last year
41:13and thankfully
41:14I didn't have to tell her
41:15I think it came to a stage
41:16where he wouldn't even talk about it anymore
41:18because he knew
41:19there was not much
41:21he could actually do about it
41:22his health was failing
41:23he'd lost his wife
41:24he was spending three days a week
41:26in hospital having dialysis
41:27so his life had become quite insular
41:30and with that then
41:31I suppose
41:31everything began to just
41:33cave in on top of him
41:34I got a letter first
41:36and I got invited
41:37to a meeting in town
41:39there were people there
41:40and they were seriously aggrieved
41:41I think there was one guy
41:43had something like 50,000
41:45and he was furious
41:46and I'm sitting there
41:47with the cold realisation
41:49that nearly 400 grand
41:50on my part
41:52had been put by this broker
41:54into customers' capital
41:56on one
41:57one bet
42:01Did you have to explain
42:02to your employees
42:03what happened?
42:03Yes
42:04which was a very awkward conversation
42:06and I had to explain to them
42:09as they were coming up to retirement
42:10that their pensions were gone
42:12and in my opinion
42:13they would never see any of them
42:18at the end of the day
42:19the book stopped with me
42:20I made the decision
42:21it was my decision
42:22as the trustee of the company
42:24it was the wrong decision
42:26it was my decision
42:27and I had to own it
42:35I was assigned to cover
42:36the sentence hearing
42:38of the four men
42:39so the presiding judge
42:41Judge Orla Crow
42:42she was sitting that day
42:43in courtroom 12
42:44I remember going up
42:45in the lift
42:46there and walking in
42:48and it was just
42:49it was just so busy
42:50there were so many people
42:52in that courtroom
42:53It was a very sad day
42:55to be honest
42:56because there were widows
42:57where the husband
42:59had died since
43:00but all their money
43:01had gone into
43:02a pension fund
43:04through Custom House Capital
43:05and lost everything
43:07It seemed to take an eternity
43:09to get from the back
43:10of the court
43:10up to the box
43:12and then to have the accused
43:14sitting right in front of you
43:17but the judge
43:19I thought handled it very well
43:21and of course
43:22the newspapers
43:23were all over it
43:25So there were 197
43:27victim impact statements
43:28handed in to the court
43:29and four of them
43:31were read out
43:31by infected investors
43:33in Custom House Capital
43:34or by family members
43:37of those investors
43:38who had passed away
43:40I saw a woman cry
43:41she said
43:42I put my pension fund in
43:44and she said
43:45it means I'd have to go back
43:46to work at 65
43:47She was crying
43:48but nobody put their arms
43:49around her and said
43:51it'd be all right
43:53It is only now
43:54how they approach
43:55retirement age
43:56that the full impact
43:57of this theft
43:58is starting to manifest itself
44:00In the past
44:01I pushed it
44:02to the back of my mind
44:03but for the last few years
44:04I cannot shake it off
44:05It causes me
44:07many sleepless nights
44:08nowadays
44:08and I constantly worry
44:10about my financial future
44:11With the world
44:12the way it is
44:13now
44:14I have two adult children
44:15still living at home
44:16and I maybe
44:17could have helped them
44:18with a deposit
44:19and a house
44:19if this money
44:20had not been stolen
44:22I've lived my entire life
44:23in South Inner City Dublin
44:25and in a broader sense
44:26this crime
44:27has also compounded
44:28my belief
44:29that there is a
44:30demoness in Irish society
44:32which robbed me
44:33and my family
44:34of a more secure retirement
44:37Having worked continuously
44:38for the last 45 years
44:40and never relying on the state
44:41for a single cent
44:42I don't think that this
44:44was too much
44:44to aspire to
44:52Now there were four
44:54guys being sentenced
44:55they all had their own
44:56legal counsel
44:58separately
44:59each of them stood up
45:00and advocated
45:01for why their guy
45:02shouldn't go to prison
45:02you know
45:03it was all like
45:04cats in a sack
45:05just all fighting
45:06trying to be the one
45:07who doesn't go to prison
45:08or doesn't get the worst sentence
45:10and the way they were
45:11talking about these guys
45:13it was like they were
45:14paragons of virtue
45:15I turned around to Barry
45:17and said I'm going to start
45:17feeling sorry for them soon
45:19if they keep on going on
45:20like this
45:20I said are these guys
45:21talking about these men
45:23who have defrauded
45:24all of these people
45:25so Harry Cassidy and John
45:27took 2.3 million out
45:28discreetly out of company
45:30in commissions
45:31directly to a Luxembourg bank account
45:34and a Tenerife property
45:35was bought for John
45:36So they were profiting
45:38during this period of time
45:39from 2007 to 2011
45:40personally
45:41as well as drawing out salaries
45:4260 years of his life working
45:45putting away money
45:46to support himself
45:47in the latter years of his life
45:49that he was going to be able to enjoy
45:50then to see it all
45:51the majority of it all
45:52wiped away
45:53was really frustrating for him
45:54And one of them was trying to say
45:56that he was so much younger
45:57and all this kind of stuff
45:58and I was a bit led
45:59and all that
46:00and the judge was like
46:01you're an adult
46:02take responsibility
46:04The judge noticed
46:05in her sentencing remarks
46:06that the men
46:07threw their guilty pleas
46:08that meant that the state
46:10was saved
46:11a very long
46:12and complex trial
46:13The judge said
46:1467-year-old Harry Cassidy
46:16the co-founder
46:16and chief executive officer
46:18of CHC
46:19was in charge
46:20of the entire conspiracy
46:21and breached
46:22all trust placed in him
46:23She sentenced him
46:24to seven years in jail
46:2553-year-old John White
46:27the head of private clients
46:29was given four years
46:30Paul Lavery
46:31who was 47
46:32was head of finance
46:33and carried out directions
46:34he knew were wrong
46:35the judge said
46:36jailing him
46:37for three years
46:3773-year-old John Mulholland
46:40a co-founder
46:40and a non-executive director
46:42pleaded guilty
46:43to neglectfully
46:44discharging his duties
46:45as a director
46:46and was jailed
46:47for 12 months
46:48Judge Crowe
46:49said many of the victims
46:50felt shame
46:51but that was misplaced
46:52she said
46:53they had been
46:53systematically deceived
46:55in a sophisticated operation
46:56which went on
46:57for almost three years
47:21the most dramatic part of it
47:23looking back
47:23now
47:24was when the guards
47:26came in
47:26to take them away
47:28to the cell
47:29a lesson there
47:30to the professions
47:32that there
47:33there is a price
47:33to be paid
47:34if they misappropriate
47:37people's funds
47:38I'm very happy
47:40that even
47:40when he does come out
47:41he will still be
47:42a convicted felon
47:44he's a criminal
47:46and he will have done time
47:57thankfully
47:57we still have our health
47:58and we have
47:59a vibrant family
48:01my wife still works
48:03but I turned 74
48:04this month
48:05it's difficult
48:06because we're reliant
48:07on the state pension
48:10and then a few bits and pieces
48:12I suppose I took
48:14and I still take
48:15a philosophical approach
48:17to it all
48:17there's no point in me
48:18getting angry about it
48:20I heard of people
48:21who borrowed money
48:22to put into that scheme
48:23and they're the people
48:25I really feel sorry for
48:26you just move on
48:29I think Irish people are
48:31they don't like talking about
48:33misgivings
48:33or they don't like talking about
48:35being taken for a fool
48:36or being taken for granted
48:37so there'll be a lot of people
48:38I think that will just
48:39take us to their grave
48:40and we brought our ashes
48:41up to kill Nadima
48:42and she's buried
48:43beside her husband
48:44with my godmother
48:49lately I've been starting to realise
48:51not that it went bad
48:52it was criminal
48:54it was an offence
48:55people have gone to jail for it
48:57years after the collapse
48:58the whole lot
48:59we actually worked in the building
49:02that they operated
49:03from at Marion Square
49:04and I walked up to the door
49:05there's of course
49:05the most capital
49:06looking at me
49:07they never took the plaque
49:08off the building
49:08at that stage
49:09I think it's sad
49:10that anybody would think
49:11that they had done
49:12something wrong
49:13you're supposed to
49:14work hard
49:16and you earn a few bob
49:17and you set a few bob aside
49:18and you invest it somewhere
49:20so that it's going to grow
49:21you will be able
49:22to provide for yourself
49:23and you won't be
49:23depending on the state
49:24and you won't be
49:25depending on your kids
49:26and you'll be able
49:26to afford all the things
49:27that you still need to do
49:29when you're retired
49:32that's what we're supposed
49:32to be able to look forward
49:33to in this green
49:34and pleasant land
49:35and I'll see you next time
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