Loaded- Lads, Mags and Mayhem

Nit Wit

Watch Loaded- Lads, Mags and Mayhem - Nit Wit on Dailymotion

Transcript

00:00:00Now, on BBC One, we travel to the south-west of England to find that the Antiques Roadshow has made

00:00:04a stop this week in Torquay.

00:00:07Oh, pleasant surprise, isn't it?

00:00:11Good morning. A new day, a new year, a new television station.

00:00:24And on the conveyor belt tonight, a bamboo cane plant holder,

00:00:28a vacuum cleaner.

00:00:30Take care on the roads if you're out and about.

00:00:34This is the mag for men who should know better, but don't.

00:00:38Editor James Brown was clever enough to figure this out.

00:00:41So, James, are you guys just a bunch of drunken louts who got together to set up a magazine and

00:00:45somehow quite accidentally cracked it?

00:00:47Yeah. No more drunken than anyone else.

00:00:51Prince!

00:00:55Loaded was the closest thing we would have had, then, to a viral phenomenon.

00:01:01Loaded was the kind of Bible of that time, really.

00:01:17Campaigners from Lose the Lads mags have been protesting across the country today.

00:01:22You're so aggressive.

00:01:23Because somebody's pretty, she's got to be all cuddly and passive as well.

00:01:26I don't get to go!

00:01:57This will be the last interview I ever do.

00:02:00Why would this be the last one?

00:02:01Hmm?

00:02:02Why would this be the last interview?

00:02:03I was so unwell at the weekend, I thought I was going to die.

00:02:06Seriously, I went to the doctor, she gave me some steroids.

00:02:09Held my hand for a bit.

00:02:12She said, I'm really concerned about you.

00:02:14I think she was trying to get off with me.

00:02:19That's the narcissist in me.

00:02:22Right, shall we get going?

00:02:24Yeah.

00:02:24OK, so let's just start at the beginning.

00:02:29England, 1994.

00:02:31James and his gang committed the heinous crime

00:02:35of getting men to read magazines en masse.

00:02:44It's very hard for people to remember what it was like pre-digital.

00:02:49Magazines were just so intrinsically important.

00:02:53Because there's no internet.

00:02:55Can't imagine how important that is, right?

00:02:58You've got a lot of time to fill in the 90s between stuff.

00:03:03And magazines are what you did.

00:03:06A magazine was something you rolled up, put in your back pocket and took out into the world.

00:03:11Because if you forgot to take it with you, you're like a lemon sitting on the number three bus.

00:03:15It's like, because there's nothing else to do.

00:03:19Magazines were your internet.

00:03:23The problem was, for most men of my age, that there was nothing to read.

00:03:27You know, nothing that actually you could identify with.

00:03:30They didn't say anything to me about my life.

00:03:32The only men's magazines you could buy were like GQ Esquire, which were great if you wanted a five grand

00:03:37suit.

00:03:37And you wanted to read about somebody else being behind the velvet rope.

00:03:40You're stuck outside while they were in there telling you how great it was.

00:03:45GQ fashion would be for a landed gentry.

00:03:47You'd see endless shots of yuppies in ties and different colour shirts and collars and mountains of champagne glasses pouring

00:03:57out.

00:03:59Yuppie was a young, upwardly mobile, city-orientated person.

00:04:04They had money and the rest of the country didn't.

00:04:07They were like the enemy.

00:04:09Nothing to do with my life.

00:04:13All the things that I was into, football, music, drinking, travel, humour, weren't in any other magazines.

00:04:21I remember one time, a really important moment, Barcelona.

00:04:27Leeds-Stuttgart was a replayed match because of her technicality.

00:04:34Standing up, I go, we are Leeds, and it's erupted.

00:04:39Leeds United, they'd won, and we were just walking down the Ramblers, and there was loads of beautiful women everywhere,

00:04:44and there was music blaring out of all the bars, and we were getting nicely drunk and having great fun.

00:04:51And then James just said, there should be a magazine like this.

00:04:55And I said, what do you mean?

00:04:56He goes, this, this feeling.

00:04:57I just thought, this is it.

00:04:58I'm going to create a magazine for me and for my mates.

00:05:10I loved growing up in the streets in Headingwood, in Leeds, just listening to T-Rex and Slade.

00:05:20A lot of energy.

00:05:22I was mouthy, sweary, quite lippy.

00:05:31And then the Yorkshire Ripper started killing people where we lived.

00:05:37And his first victims were on the place where I used to play table tennis.

00:05:43And that really affected my mum.

00:05:45My mum was really nervous and paranoid about it, and I was getting closer and closer to the end of

00:05:52my school life.

00:05:53There was sort of less money at home.

00:05:57You know, Thatcher and the toys had been in power, so it was a pretty grim time.

00:06:02There weren't any opportunities.

00:06:04The country was rotten.

00:06:07The inner cities were derelict.

00:06:16The fact that there were no job opportunities meant you could just pick a fantasy.

00:06:21What do you want to do?

00:06:23By the time I was 17, I knew, I just wanted to work on magazines.

00:06:26It's coming like a ghost, sir.

00:06:30So that was my first fanzine.

00:06:33It's called Victory Comics, because I was reading 1984.

00:06:37It's just interviews with bands and stuff.

00:06:41Some people just find what they're good at.

00:06:44And I was, for some reason, I was quite good at it.

00:06:54I was the lead singer in a band called Lush in the 90s.

00:07:00The fanzine scene at gigs, loads of people wrote fanzines.

00:07:05You couldn't leave a gig without five, six fanzines under your arm, which is actually how I met James.

00:07:12He was a bit of an upstart.

00:07:14That was quite fun about him.

00:07:15You know, he was a little bit cocky, but he was just quite a decent bloke, actually.

00:07:22There was nothing sexualising in James' way of dealing with you at all.

00:07:30I didn't expect him to end up where he did.

00:07:34Now, if you come this way, here are some people deliberating about what goes on our cover.

00:07:40I was the features editor of the NME at 22.

00:07:44It changed my life.

00:07:46NME was a well-known media entity that people loved.

00:07:50Yeah.

00:07:51We've got other ones.

00:07:53And it educated me in the ways of commercial mainstream magazines.

00:07:57What was the other one we had?

00:07:58Shown to be Wild.

00:07:59Shown to be Wild.

00:08:01By the time I was 26, they asked me if I'd like to create my own magazine.

00:08:05He just set me off like a rocket.

00:08:15I knew assembling the team was the most important thing.

00:08:19If you've got 99 straight guys and one weirdo, it's the weirdo that'll change your business.

00:08:24So I used to say I was assembling 99 weirdos and one straight guy to get the issue out.

00:08:29But it turned out the straight guy was a fucking maniac anyway, Christian.

00:08:35James said once, Kristen loved women so much that she became one.

00:08:44I'm Kristen, and my pronouns are she, her.

00:08:49Can't believe I'm talking about pronouns with a team from Loaded.

00:08:54Martin Deason looked across between Arnold Schwarzenegger and Billy Bunter.

00:08:58He had these kind of glasses with this big loaf of blonde hair, big grin.

00:09:02Looked like some sort of fucking drunk German general.

00:09:05The only words James said the entire minute.

00:09:07He goes, what clubs do you go to?

00:09:11I met James in a nightclub.

00:09:13I came to London with the intention of studying English literature.

00:09:18I sort of ended up with a PhD in Acid House instead.

00:09:23Yeah, you could call it a professional operation, or you could call it a bunch of people in the back

00:09:28of a Ford Transit van thinking about doing a robbery.

00:09:30It had that kind of energy to it already.

00:09:38How did he come up with the name?

00:09:42I don't think anybody fucking cares watching this documentary about who originated the name.

00:09:49Miranda Sawyer says she came up with the name.

00:09:51What, Loaded?

00:09:52No, she didn't.

00:09:55Miranda said she liked the name.

00:09:57I was in her bed in a sunny morning in Brixton, and we were lying in bed arguing about blur

00:10:05and whether there were mountains under the sea.

00:10:08And I was telling her the names that we were researching, and she said she liked Loaded.

00:10:13I would say I wasn't in bed. I would say we were in the flat.

00:10:17That's so funny. Such a mythologiser.

00:10:20I don't remember things exactly like James, but, you know, that's quite funny.

00:10:25We had a kind of fling, right?

00:10:28Non-exclusive, fun time, that's what I would say.

00:10:32And James showed me a muck-up of the new magazine he was working on, and he told me what

00:10:36was going to be in it.

00:10:37And I said, we should call it Loaded.

00:10:39James walked in one morning and went, it's going to be called Loaded.

00:10:43Miranda Sawyer's had the idea. We decided it last night. It's going to be called Loaded.

00:10:46Everyone's like, yeah, that's a pretty good name for a magazine.

00:10:48OK.

00:10:49Primal Scream had had this massive hit with this kind of reinvented album called Screamer Delicates.

00:10:54And the big hit from it.

00:10:55Just what is it that you want to do?

00:10:57It's a track called Loaded, which sampled a scene from the film Wild Angels.

00:11:01We want to be free to do what we want to do, and we want to get loaded.

00:11:07So it means lots of things. That's why it's such a great title.

00:11:09It means being out of it. It means money, and it means a gun.

00:11:16It's got power, it's got energy, it's got sex.

00:11:18It's loaded. You're not GQ, FHM. Stillborn, aren't I?

00:11:23What time's gone by? It don't mean anything. There's no action.

00:11:29We want to get loaded. We want to have a good time.

00:11:33In 1994, no-one knew how to communicate with young men in particular.

00:11:39And we said, how about this? Do you want a bit of this? Because we do.

00:11:44Class is changing.

00:11:46The hooligans were in the art galleries.

00:11:48Damien Hirst.

00:11:49So, why is he exhibiting a dead sheep?

00:11:51We want to live forever.

00:11:53Gazza.

00:11:54Do you want a game on a glass? One against one, me and you.

00:11:57Why not? You're taught a good game.

00:11:59Oasis were just exploding.

00:12:01People think you're elegant because you say what you say,

00:12:03and it's not. It's just self-confident.

00:12:05And if you can't be self-confident, then what can you be?

00:12:07They were just so cheeky and cocky, and Loaded was part of that, you know?

00:12:18The Holy Grail in publishing is launching a mainstream men's magazine.

00:12:25IPC was the biggest consumer magazine publishing house in Europe

00:12:28and was dubbed the Ministry of Magazines.

00:12:32We presented the magazine to IPC,

00:12:35asking them to spend half a million pounds' risk money on a launch.

00:12:40They weren't exactly a bunch of fun blokes.

00:12:44One of the pages that was flashed up on the screen

00:12:48was how to do the perfect blowjob.

00:12:51The HR director woke up, which is never a good sign in these meetings

00:12:55because the smell of blood had started to drift into his nostrils.

00:13:02The chairman looked at Linda, who was the managing director,

00:13:05and he said to her, Linda, do you find this offensive?

00:13:12And Linda was just laughing.

00:13:13She said, no, I think it's bloody hilarious.

00:13:17I'd moved my chips into James Brown on the roulette table

00:13:21and thought, well, he's worth a good bet.

00:13:24And it was either going to end tragically

00:13:25or it would end being brilliant.

00:13:29Then we realised we had to make a magazine,

00:13:31and then thank God Christian was there

00:13:33because basically otherwise nothing would have happened.

00:13:35My role was to kick everybody's arse

00:13:39because we were running so late.

00:13:41Can we do this?

00:13:43Can we actually pull it off on time somewhere near the budget?

00:13:48It'd gone from being this kind of very, very wide-ranging

00:13:51kind of pub conversation to like,

00:13:53shit, this is real now.

00:13:57It was really, really fucking exciting.

00:14:00We finished the issue and everybody was in the pub

00:14:04and I'm dancing around the office to Boys and Girls by Blur.

00:14:10I had it on full blast.

00:14:12James was standing on tables, air guitaring,

00:14:17and I remember thinking, yeah, this is what this is.

00:14:20Oh, I should be someone you really love.

00:14:29And there it is.

00:14:32Issue one.

00:14:33I genuinely haven't looked at this for 30 years,

00:14:36so it's quite a surprise.

00:14:39Gary Oldman still looks incredibly cool.

00:14:42For men who should know better.

00:14:44What's that?

00:14:46Mr Simpson was the head of year at Loneswood.

00:14:48My school.

00:14:50And I can remember him pulling my fucking earring out

00:14:52when I was a sort of punky kid in 1979.

00:14:57And he said, you should know Brett O'Brien.

00:15:02What fresh lunacy is this?

00:15:06Loaded is a new magazine dedicated to life, liberty,

00:15:09and the pursuit of sex, drink, football,

00:15:11and less serious matters.

00:15:13Loaded is for the man who believes he can do anything

00:15:16if only he wasn't hungover.

00:15:18So we hope you enjoy it.

00:15:20As Phil Linnert so wisely said,

00:15:22the boys are back in town.

00:15:25The boys are back in town.

00:15:27The boys are back in town.

00:15:30That's it.

00:15:31The boys are back in town.

00:15:34The boys are back in town.

00:15:36The other one was unearthing

00:15:38who became the most famous sportsman in the world.

00:15:40That was the very first interview any magazine ever did

00:15:42with Tiger Woods.

00:15:43He was 17 years old.

00:15:45The next thing he knew, I was out there.

00:15:46We were playing golf together and hanging out.

00:15:47It was just unreal.

00:15:49I'm just some Burke from Birmingham, you know,

00:15:51and I'm doing all these mad things

00:15:53in the space of like a week.

00:15:55I was like, what the hell?

00:15:57Withnail and I, yeah, we were big on Withnail.

00:16:00I think a lot of what we did

00:16:01is very much wrapped up in Withnail and I,

00:16:03which is to say, made each other laugh

00:16:05and went away for the weekend.

00:16:07Those characters are operating in the interlude

00:16:09before the rest of their lives.

00:16:12Nona!

00:16:14I'll kill Brandon!

00:16:20Alan says to me,

00:16:22you've got everything in this magazine

00:16:24that men like, apart from young women.

00:16:27I said, OK, fine, just banged him in.

00:16:29Tim interviewed the woman.

00:16:30Nobody knew Liz Hurley was then.

00:16:32She'd done a few small films, she wasn't known.

00:16:35She goes to the premiere of Four Weddings and a Funeral

00:16:38with her boyfriend, Hugh Grant.

00:16:41And she's got the Versace dress naked up the side,

00:16:45held together by pins.

00:16:46And that was it.

00:16:47She became famous then.

00:16:51You did have women in their underwear from earlier on.

00:16:54Right.

00:16:55Did that shoot.

00:16:56One shot.

00:16:58Oh, blimey.

00:17:00Hello.

00:17:03Well, straight away...

00:17:07..lady with her legs open.

00:17:09As a woman, when you read this, you're like,

00:17:12I'm included, I'm included.

00:17:13Oh, am I only included if I look like that?

00:17:16Oh.

00:17:17Am I only included if my clothes are off?

00:17:20Just, it brings you up a little bit.

00:17:22And then you think, OK, now I'll get on with the rest of it.

00:17:33It's after, like, a week of it being live,

00:17:35these two boys came up from the post room

00:17:38in their post room polo shirts and their post room complexions

00:17:42and dumped two post bags.

00:17:45I said, what is it?

00:17:47They said, that's your mail.

00:17:49It's just, there was just a mountain

00:17:51of probably about four or five hundred letters, postcards.

00:17:55I started opening them.

00:17:56I love this magazine.

00:17:58There's never been anything about it.

00:17:59Loved the Gary Oldman interview.

00:18:00This mag's me.

00:18:02Never seen anything like this.

00:18:03Going to be buying it again.

00:18:04Where can I get the next issue?

00:18:06I remember Alan Lewis coming into the office

00:18:09and saying, it's sold out,

00:18:13which is very unusual.

00:18:15I'd never heard that expression before in a magazine office.

00:18:18You might think that we kind of knew

00:18:21we were in some kind of cultural moment,

00:18:23but you don't know you're in a cultural moment

00:18:25when it's happening.

00:18:27Britain was changing, and in myriad ways,

00:18:30we just reflected a change that was happening in society.

00:18:39Good evening.

00:18:40Official figures show women are increasingly having it all.

00:18:44What's left for men?

00:18:46New Man reacted by accommodating career woman,

00:18:50a crash course in nappy-changing cookery

00:18:52and where the cupboard was that the hoover was kept in

00:18:55and he'd play his part around the house.

00:18:57At the end of the 80s and the start of the 90s,

00:19:00there was the New Man,

00:19:03a kind of responsibility for all men in their 20s

00:19:06to reconstruct themselves into something better than they were,

00:19:09and that was based on political correctness

00:19:11and what you should be thinking

00:19:13and what you shouldn't be saying and things like that.

00:19:15So Loaded was a massive reaction to that.

00:19:18We basically threw a hand grenade into a room full of new men

00:19:20and caused chaos for the next six years

00:19:22and I'm proud of that.

00:19:35The new lad doesn't know what all the fuss is about

00:19:38or he's too pissed to notice.

00:19:44Will you marry me, Dorothy?

00:19:49What came to be called lad culture

00:19:51was a groundswell of popular culture

00:19:54amongst working-class people, mainly men.

00:20:00I wrote a column for Loaded.

00:20:03Irvin O'Neill, Trainspotting Meats Oasis.

00:20:07Did I do it in a Manchester accent?

00:20:10See, what people have got to understand

00:20:13is that we are lads.

00:20:14We have burgled houses and nicked car stereos

00:20:18and we like girls and we swear

00:20:20and we go to the football and take the piss.

00:20:24My name is David Biddyell.

00:20:26I am an intellectual comedian

00:20:27but I've never really wanted to be an intellectual.

00:20:30I've always wanted to be a lad.

00:20:32Me and Robin were on the cover of City Limits.

00:20:35Here come the new lads.

00:20:37But by the time you get to here,

00:20:39really cool people are lads, right?

00:20:42Gary Oldman and Eric Cantona

00:20:43and Paul Weller, these are very cool people.

00:20:47There was a redefinition of the word lad

00:20:49and therefore a redefinition of a type of masculinity

00:20:52that had been totally abhorred beforehand.

00:21:04I always wanted life to be very exciting.

00:21:07I didn't want to have a boring life.

00:21:09But I thought I was going to become a priest

00:21:11in the Catholic Church.

00:21:14I'd been to Rome a few times and met the Pope

00:21:16and they were like,

00:21:16you're a really smart boy.

00:21:18Before you come to the papal university in Rome,

00:21:21see what's the best university you can get to in Britain

00:21:23and do theology.

00:21:24And I got into Cambridge.

00:21:26Absolutely zero support from my family.

00:21:28My dad didn't want me to go to university at all.

00:21:32My dad was a very difficult man.

00:21:35Very domineering.

00:21:38I think the function of having a very domineering,

00:21:40not particularly pleasant father

00:21:43is that I feel quite at home

00:21:46when someone's shouting at me.

00:21:48Where the fuck's your feature?

00:21:49You're fucking lazy.

00:21:51Which is basically what he would shout.

00:21:53It was actually essentially exactly the same

00:21:54as what my dad would have shouted at me.

00:21:56That style of management,

00:21:58which is very out of fashion nowadays,

00:22:00but was very much in fashion in that period.

00:22:03I wasn't always...

00:22:04I mean, I think I was a great boss to work for,

00:22:06but I was also a fucking nightmare to work for.

00:22:09I mean, to deal with the staff.

00:22:10There were fucking maniacs, half of them.

00:22:12I was like Frankenstein and he was the monster.

00:22:16That's how I kind of pushed him.

00:22:18It felt strange leaving my university friends

00:22:22and going on to Loaded,

00:22:24but I was so keen.

00:22:25I remember that every time James mentioned a feature idea,

00:22:28I'd be like, I can do that!

00:22:30So I went into the office.

00:22:31I remember it like it was yesterday

00:22:32because it was a turning point in my life.

00:22:34James and Tim were standing there by a filing cabinet.

00:22:38I'd like to go to Cannes, the film festival.

00:22:40I think it could be a good story.

00:22:43I mean, brilliant idea.

00:22:53It was something else.

00:22:57Cannes Film Festival is full on.

00:23:01I naively thought I'd be going to film premieres and stuff.

00:23:05I couldn't get in to anything at all.

00:23:12Starting to panic now already, actually.

00:23:18I started buying bottles of wine

00:23:19that you could buy for the two or three francs, as it was then.

00:23:23Let's go for a nice bottle of red round here, though.

00:23:25Yeah, it's really good quality, isn't it?

00:23:27And I just plodded up and down

00:23:30through the Cannes Film Festival

00:23:31looking for some kind of story.

00:23:34But I'm just like an outsider in paradise.

00:23:39Eventually, I met an amazing guy,

00:23:41Lloyd Kaufman from Troma Films, who was a producer.

00:23:44And he said,

00:23:46I've got a ticket to the William Morris party upstairs.

00:23:48Why don't you take that?

00:23:51I went up to this party

00:23:52and I'm suddenly confronted with this palatial room

00:23:56with, like, tables covered in food.

00:23:59And I'm not lying,

00:24:00it's the first time in my life I'd ever seen an open bar.

00:24:04Right, I'll have gin and tonic,

00:24:07a large scotch,

00:24:09two glasses of champagne,

00:24:10and got stuck in.

00:24:13In there were all the stars that William Morris represents.

00:24:17And just with a little dictaphone,

00:24:19you know, a tiny little tape recording,

00:24:20I'd go, Martin Deason-loaded magazine.

00:24:23Bruce Willis walks past,

00:24:24and I'm like, now we're fucking talking,

00:24:26who's one of the biggest stars in the world at the time.

00:24:28I'm like, Bruce!

00:24:30And then two gorillas come up,

00:24:32and I'm like, literally,

00:24:33who the fuck do you think you are?

00:24:35You're clearly holding four drinks in your arm.

00:24:37Just get the fuck out.

00:24:39They throw me out.

00:24:40And Derek Ridgers, the photographer,

00:24:42turns to me and has a very laconic speech pattern.

00:24:45Derek goes, you know,

00:24:46I've never had any respect for people who get drunk,

00:24:49when they're meant to be working.

00:24:50I'm like, I know, Derek.

00:24:51It's shocking, isn't it?

00:24:53Absolutely shocking.

00:24:59The next morning,

00:25:01the kind of massive hangover anxiety kicks in,

00:25:04and I'm still saying,

00:25:06this is an absolute fucking disaster.

00:25:09I remember flying over the Alps

00:25:11and genuinely thinking,

00:25:12I just wish this plane would crash into the Alps.

00:25:14I can't take this.

00:25:16I finally got the job I wanted.

00:25:18I'm a writer on a magazine.

00:25:19The magazine's being successful,

00:25:21and they're going to fire me,

00:25:22and I've fucked up.

00:25:23What the fuck am I going to do?

00:25:26And I just write the story

00:25:28from arriving in Cannes to leaving Cannes.

00:25:30Then we did this.

00:25:31Then we did that.

00:25:32Celebrities, they'll do anything for a bit of fame.

00:25:34Bam.

00:25:35Give it in.

00:25:36Go.

00:25:37I just think, well, that's it.

00:25:39I'm going to get sacked.

00:25:39I've totally blown everything.

00:25:44I walk into the office on Monday morning,

00:25:46and James and Tim are both like,

00:25:47there, that feature is amazing.

00:25:50It's brilliant.

00:25:51This is it.

00:25:52Oh, you're no longer the sub-editor.

00:25:54You're now the staff writer.

00:25:55You're amazing.

00:25:56We just need more of this stuff all the time.

00:25:58And I'm like,

00:25:59okay, don't question it.

00:26:00Martin was very good at writing

00:26:01about how things had gone wrong.

00:26:03The readers loved it

00:26:04because it was a sort of situation

00:26:07they might find them.

00:26:08They weren't going to any VIP parties.

00:26:10If not much is happening,

00:26:12more things happen when you're drunk.

00:26:14Do you know?

00:26:15They just do.

00:26:15So it was kind of part of the Gonzo's thing.

00:26:19Huntress Thompson, my hero,

00:26:21would regularly be completely obliterated

00:26:23on far more exotic chemicals than we had.

00:26:26Gonzo journalism means that the writer

00:26:28is part of the story,

00:26:30that you make the story.

00:26:32What about Gonzo journalism?

00:26:33You're right in the middle of the action yourself,

00:26:36which is something which the ordinary newspaper man

00:26:38or journalist is not.

00:26:39He stands aside.

00:26:40I can only get into a story when I'm right there,

00:26:42which makes for a problem sometimes.

00:26:45It became how I did things.

00:26:47But, you know, everyone was drunk in the 90s,

00:26:49generally, you know.

00:26:51Although we were looked down upon

00:26:53by a slightly sneery middle-classy media.

00:26:57In the Daily Mail, Victoria Corrin,

00:26:59I mean, the headline,

00:27:01laddish, loutish, and frankly, loathsome.

00:27:04People rightly deplore in this country

00:27:07elements of what could be called a yob culture.

00:27:11Well, let's set ourselves an objective to change it,

00:27:14make a real national effort to build an anti-yob culture.

00:27:18Well, it's a yob, really.

00:27:20What he's saying is that he doesn't like drunk blokes.

00:27:25Really.

00:27:28We sort of became the intruders, really, at the banquet.

00:27:31And when that happens,

00:27:33then I think it's very natural that you do sort of turn inwards.

00:27:37And so there was a kind of fuck-unus to it as well

00:27:40that sort of permeated the kind of inner sanctum.

00:27:46It's being part of a gang,

00:27:48and that is powerful.

00:27:51I think when people look back on the magazine,

00:27:54they get fixated on its relationship to women.

00:27:57But the way that I think about it now

00:28:00is it's about the relationship between men,

00:28:02and particularly for me, looking up to men.

00:28:07I sort of wanted to be friends with James,

00:28:09and I sort of wanted him to look after me, I suppose, you know.

00:28:14It feels like we were having a second childhood.

00:28:17This is a big family who are pugnacious

00:28:21and talented and argumentative and funny.

00:28:28That, I think, was my desk.

00:28:30Yeah, just behind that table there, yeah, in the corner.

00:28:34Bear in mind, we would be smoking as well, you know,

00:28:37so it was like a very different office culture

00:28:39from what you might experience today,

00:28:41like somewhere between Mad Men

00:28:43and the back room of a pub, really.

00:28:45Lager, lager, lager, lager,

00:28:47shouting, lager, lager, lager, lager.

00:28:51It was to do with just having a laugh,

00:28:55you know, taking the mickey out of the establishment,

00:28:57turning up, seeing what you can blag,

00:29:00like having fun.

00:29:02So if you're moving through the world as a young white man,

00:29:05then the humour and the attitude

00:29:08and the approach to life is always going to be that.

00:29:11But I would say a lot of women like Loaded, actually.

00:29:14You know, there's a lot to like about it.

00:29:26Paula Yates once said to one of the writers,

00:29:30I know you guys, you all like football and crisps.

00:29:33Your ideal day is in bed with a beautiful woman

00:29:35eating crisps and watching Match of the Day.

00:29:38And I read that and I thought, yeah, and mine,

00:29:42apart from switch the woman for soldier.

00:29:45I moved to London to be nearer my football team,

00:29:50which is Tottenham.

00:29:51I then got a job on 90 Minutes Football Magazine.

00:29:55We were next door to Loaded

00:29:57and our entrance was through their office,

00:30:00so you couldn't avoid the chaos.

00:30:04Loaded had this massive soul to it.

00:30:09Everyone's hard work, everyone's nonsense,

00:30:12everyone's genius just kind of came off the pages

00:30:16like this vapour.

00:30:18I think I hung around in their office

00:30:20as much as I did mine,

00:30:22probably a bit more, my editor would tell you,

00:30:26to the point of taking a cup of tea

00:30:29and a 50 pence piece

00:30:31to one of the Loaded writers, Michael,

00:30:35every Friday afternoon at about 3 o'clock

00:30:38in exchange for a kiss.

00:30:43You couldn't do that now.

00:30:46I think it made me feel rather self-conscious,

00:30:48but if there are three things you shouldn't refuse in life,

00:30:52they're money, tea and kissing, you know,

00:30:53so it was a compelling package, yeah.

00:31:03MUSIC PLAYS

00:31:04I looked down my top as I'm cleaning a Formula One car.

00:31:07I didn't feel the need to sue them or have counselling.

00:31:10It was just a laugh.

00:31:13I definitely felt like there was a change in the air

00:31:16in the 90s for young women.

00:31:21This idea of, you know what,

00:31:24we can relax, let our hair down,

00:31:27and be frisky and feminine.

00:31:31Now, in the 90s,

00:31:33let's actually just enjoy

00:31:35every aspect of the lighter things.

00:31:39Our vanity, our ego,

00:31:41our sexual desire.

00:31:43MUSIC PLAYS

00:31:48There was a sense

00:31:50that we had defeated

00:31:52the demons of sexism and racism.

00:31:56We've won those wars,

00:31:57and so now we can joke about those things.

00:32:01Irony has to be always factored in.

00:32:03It's presenting something,

00:32:04but it's then, with a nod and a wink,

00:32:06saying, we're not this.

00:32:14MUSIC PLAYS

00:32:15Uh-oh, we're in trouble

00:32:18Something's come along

00:32:19And it's burst a bubble

00:32:21Yay, it was unloaded!

00:32:23Yay!

00:32:23No wonder you wanted me to come and talk to you.

00:32:27Get hungry, get to the top of all

00:32:30Cuuute.

00:32:32Transmission vamp, apparently.

00:32:35What does that mean?

00:32:37It means, um,

00:32:39I'm some sort of vixen

00:32:41televised into your living room,

00:32:42whether you like it or not.

00:32:44Now, for the first time on British television,

00:32:47ha-ha, we can present for you

00:32:50synchronized condom flossing.

00:32:52Take it away, boys!

00:32:55I'd prefer five minutes of unbridled filth any time

00:32:59to nine hours of bump and grind.

00:33:01You know what?

00:33:03I think I prefer nine hours of bump and grind.

00:33:06I've changed.

00:33:07I've developed since then.

00:33:09While I didn't get undressed physically,

00:33:11I certainly got undressed verbally.

00:33:17After the dawning of the lad movement,

00:33:21Loaded was already in the culture.

00:33:23And I thought,

00:33:24what's good for the goose

00:33:25is good for the gander.

00:33:27Well, what's the girl equivalent

00:33:29of this burgeoning lad culture?

00:33:31Mom, mom, I started to!

00:33:33So that's when I came up

00:33:34with this idea of ladette.

00:33:36And here come the girls.

00:33:38And look at that.

00:33:40A woman who is confident.

00:33:43Her fault control is second to none.

00:33:46Empowered, not apologetic.

00:33:49They haven't even kicked off

00:33:50and she scored!

00:33:52You could express your sexuality

00:33:54and it was seen as a positive thing.

00:33:57It wasn't like,

00:33:58oh, you're a bit mucky.

00:33:59Follow me.

00:34:00Pass that, woo!

00:34:01There was this era of female-fronted shows

00:34:03like my show, Pajama Party,

00:34:05and The Girlie Show.

00:34:06Oh, wanker, do we?

00:34:09Oh, wanker.

00:34:10The presenters were expressive

00:34:12and liberated.

00:34:14We're just doing what girls

00:34:16have always done.

00:34:16You know, girls have always gone out,

00:34:18got drunk, had a kebab,

00:34:20had a stupid snog that you've regretted,

00:34:22just like boys do.

00:34:24You know, and all we're doing

00:34:25is just doing it on TV.

00:34:27And men have been sort of behaving badly

00:34:29and doing it on TV for much longer

00:34:31than we have, you know,

00:34:32the likely lads and whatnot.

00:34:33And we've never really had that for women.

00:34:36Women have always been quite well-behaved

00:34:37and sort of, you know, squeaky clean.

00:34:40Well, I'm sorry,

00:34:41but I think that's quite boring.

00:34:47There was a sense of the culture

00:34:49becoming a little bit more unbuttoned.

00:34:52You had artists like Tracy Ammon.

00:34:55I'm here.

00:34:56I'm drunk.

00:34:56I had a good night out with my friends.

00:34:58I'm leaving now.

00:34:59It's live.

00:35:00But I don't care.

00:35:01I can give a fuck about it.

00:35:03Bye, Tracy.

00:35:05You had artists like Sarah Lucas.

00:35:08Or you can have a pop group like Spice Girls

00:35:13being a bunch of cheerleaders for teenage girls.

00:35:17Like, there's all different flavours.

00:35:20I think you're happy.

00:35:21Oh, thank you.

00:35:23Do you want to join us on the sofa?

00:35:24I think it's not a great for me.

00:35:26It's so lovely.

00:35:28We did the first feature on the Spice Girls.

00:35:30They weren't known at all then.

00:35:32They were like a new band.

00:35:33So were the Spice Girls quite loaded?

00:35:35Totally.

00:35:37Young, cocky, ambitious.

00:35:39They were so, like, fucking full-on

00:35:42and full of energy.

00:35:45Loaded's impact was comparable

00:35:47to the way punk changed music.

00:35:49It freed everything up.

00:35:50It showed people you could have fun,

00:35:53you could fuck around with a format

00:35:54and you could be true to your own interests.

00:35:57There was a lot of media

00:35:57that was being influenced by Loaded.

00:36:00Dessert with sheep's testicles

00:36:02and Amy from Leicester had a bite,

00:36:03but it wasn't right.

00:36:15What's the difference between

00:36:16John Major and 13 nuns

00:36:18on a stag night, right?

00:36:20Well...

00:36:28And all of that was new.

00:36:31And I think Loaded was

00:36:32somehow we just seemed

00:36:35to get there first.

00:36:36And we didn't know this.

00:36:37We didn't know that we were

00:36:38holding the keys to the country's

00:36:40kind of, you know,

00:36:41internal heartbeat.

00:36:44You felt like a new era

00:36:46was dawning in the country.

00:36:48And we were kind of

00:36:49the house magazine

00:36:50scene of that change.

00:36:52That sort of new Labour

00:36:54thing was coming.

00:36:56The old Labour Party

00:36:57was no friend of the youth,

00:36:59particularly.

00:37:01But they were clearly different.

00:37:03Putting Tony Blair

00:37:04with a footballer

00:37:05and Kevin Keegan together

00:37:06and heading.

00:37:08And then you've got

00:37:09John Prescott decking a guy

00:37:12for throwing an egg at him.

00:37:16You've got behaviour that the

00:37:17Loaded readers would recognise.

00:37:19Labour has come home to you,

00:37:21so come home to us.

00:37:23Labour's coming home.

00:37:31There are three names on guest list

00:37:33for every club and every event

00:37:35and every opening.

00:37:36Oasis, Blur and the boys from Loaded.

00:37:40Celebs were ringers.

00:37:41Pop stars of the day, Damon.

00:37:44Our heroes, Weller.

00:37:46Ah, nice.

00:37:48We've actually

00:37:48kind of become someone,

00:37:50haven't we?

00:37:51We're a thing.

00:37:53Cool.

00:37:54You know, we're a cultural phenomenon.

00:37:56We're like a band.

00:37:57This is awesome.

00:37:59I've started to put my face

00:38:00in the magazine more

00:38:01and more and more,

00:38:02which is kind of flattering,

00:38:03of course, right?

00:38:04It's nice.

00:38:05Being a bit of a kind of

00:38:07lad icon.

00:38:10It was a lot to celebrate.

00:38:12If I didn't have a bottle of champagne

00:38:13in my hand,

00:38:14I'd be lopsided.

00:38:18And we'd won.

00:38:19It felt like

00:38:19the fanzine writers had won.

00:38:25I'd prefer anybody

00:38:26to pick up Loaded

00:38:27having read it

00:38:28and not enjoy some part of it.

00:38:31In terms of television,

00:38:32what plans do you have?

00:38:33Mastermind.

00:38:36Topic?

00:38:37Mastermind for drug addicts.

00:38:38OK.

00:38:39Not mean it.

00:38:40OK.

00:38:40Thanks, James.

00:38:41Alcoholics.

00:38:42Mastermind for alcoholics

00:38:43and drug addicts.

00:38:44OK.

00:38:44I'm sure you'd be

00:38:45excellent at it.

00:38:46OK.

00:38:47Thanks a lot.

00:38:50James was like

00:38:51this kind of hornet

00:38:53that would just

00:38:54dart in and out.

00:38:55You'd see him

00:38:55on the way to the loo.

00:38:57Obviously copious

00:38:58amount of times.

00:38:59You'd come in

00:39:00in the morning

00:39:01there'd be blood

00:39:01on the carpet

00:39:03and you'd go

00:39:04James coughing up

00:39:05blood again.

00:39:07The cocaine revolution

00:39:09was really the big thing

00:39:10but that hit

00:39:11the whole of Britain.

00:39:12Loaded wasn't

00:39:13some weird island

00:39:14of strangeness

00:39:15it was part of

00:39:16a whole change

00:39:17in British society.

00:39:19It just became

00:39:20more and more

00:39:21and more prevalent.

00:39:24Oasis is singing

00:39:25about being chained

00:39:26to the mirror

00:39:26and the razor blade.

00:39:28You know,

00:39:28Cool Britannia

00:39:29was built

00:39:30on a kind of

00:39:30glacier of cocaine

00:39:32at times.

00:39:34What the fuck

00:39:35are these?

00:39:37I think

00:39:38Trainspotting

00:39:38was successful

00:39:39in the 90s

00:39:40because it was

00:39:40one of the first

00:39:41novels to talk

00:39:42about drugs

00:39:43and people taking drugs

00:39:44and nobody

00:39:45was really writing

00:39:46about that

00:39:46or acknowledging it.

00:39:48This is how

00:39:49life is now.

00:39:51It's not somebody

00:39:52walking into a pub

00:39:53and going

00:39:53two pints of heavy

00:39:54please barman.

00:39:55It was about

00:39:56trying to

00:39:57score some

00:39:58decent drugs

00:39:59that were going

00:39:59to take the party

00:40:00right through the weekend.

00:40:05Oh is this the way

00:40:07they say

00:40:08the future's

00:40:09meant to feel

00:40:10Or just

00:40:1120,000

00:40:12people

00:40:13standing

00:40:14in the field

00:40:16And I don't

00:40:17quite understand

00:40:18just what

00:40:19this feeling is

00:40:20But that's okay

00:40:22because we're

00:40:22all sorted out

00:40:24for reason

00:40:25There was a period

00:40:27where I just

00:40:27didn't ever seem

00:40:28to go home

00:40:29and just seemed

00:40:29to go from one

00:40:30thing to another

00:40:30from the office

00:40:31to a party

00:40:32to another thing

00:40:32and it became

00:40:33very blurry.

00:40:35I just said

00:40:36yes to things

00:40:37you know

00:40:38and that would

00:40:39be work

00:40:39or you know

00:40:40it might have

00:40:41been drugs

00:40:41or whatever else

00:40:42but I just

00:40:42kind of thought

00:40:43well

00:40:45what happens

00:40:46if you just

00:40:46keep going?

00:40:54Alright

00:40:54so I'll give you

00:40:55this

00:40:55and if you just

00:40:56press play

00:40:57when you're ready

00:40:58Where's play?

00:40:59You just press

00:40:59spacebar

00:41:00Okay

00:41:01The verve

00:41:02and the appropriately

00:41:03titled history

00:41:03because they

00:41:04are no more

00:41:05Let's meet our

00:41:05panel of pop

00:41:06pundits tonight

00:41:07From Loaded

00:41:08Magazine

00:41:09Michael Holden

00:41:09Hello

00:41:10Welcome Michael

00:41:11Is that a fine

00:41:12epitaph for the band

00:41:12that single

00:41:13do you think Michael?

00:41:16Good question

00:41:18Yeah in a way

00:41:19I mean I think

00:41:19it's a shameless

00:41:20blurb

00:41:20because I always

00:41:21I always really

00:41:21liked them

00:41:22I think you know

00:41:22they were going

00:41:23to go on to be

00:41:23something really

00:41:24really good

00:41:24you know

00:41:25better than anyone

00:41:26sort of imagined

00:41:27so

00:41:29Yeah I've

00:41:29I've no memory

00:41:31of taking part

00:41:33in that

00:41:34in that at all

00:41:37Yeah it's strange

00:41:38and sort of

00:41:39rather

00:41:39rather moving

00:41:40in a way

00:41:40yeah

00:41:43Do you know

00:41:43what date that was?

00:41:44Sorry did one of you

00:41:45tell me?

00:41:45September 95

00:41:47September 95

00:41:50Is that significant?

00:41:53Yeah I mean

00:41:54I sort of

00:41:54I wish I could have

00:41:55a word with him

00:41:56yeah

00:41:57because it's

00:41:58it's not long

00:41:58after that

00:41:59that I'm

00:41:59you know

00:42:00I've become

00:42:00quite ill

00:42:02very ill

00:42:03I had stopped

00:42:05sleeping

00:42:06and as a bloke

00:42:07I was like

00:42:08oh okay

00:42:08well I've got

00:42:09the constitution

00:42:09for this

00:42:10so therefore

00:42:10maybe

00:42:11that's something

00:42:12that I can do

00:42:13I was awake

00:42:14for days and days

00:42:14almost two weeks

00:42:15in the end

00:42:16and by the end

00:42:18of that

00:42:18I'd started

00:42:19you know

00:42:20hallucinating

00:42:21without any help

00:42:22at all

00:42:22and it was a

00:42:23very frightening

00:42:24period for me

00:42:24and for my

00:42:26family

00:42:26I'd gone home

00:42:27for Christmas

00:42:33I'm at my dad's

00:42:34house in

00:42:34Hare Hills

00:42:35in Leeds

00:42:36Boxing Day

00:42:37I think it is

00:42:38and Michael calls

00:42:39me and he's

00:42:40just raving

00:42:44I just thought

00:42:46they used to call

00:42:47me at night

00:42:47for stuff

00:42:48I think sometimes

00:42:49they mistook me

00:42:50for their dad

00:42:50which I've on it

00:42:51because Michael was

00:42:53about the only one

00:42:53who was younger

00:42:54than me

00:42:55so I got this call

00:42:55that was it

00:43:00on New Year's Eve

00:43:011995

00:43:021996

00:43:03that's when I went

00:43:03to hospital

00:43:04and very much

00:43:05in the classic style

00:43:07it's not easy

00:43:08to get sectioned

00:43:09luckily

00:43:09but they took

00:43:10one look at me

00:43:10and were pretty

00:43:11unequivocal

00:43:11that I would be

00:43:12better off

00:43:12in than being

00:43:13on the outside

00:43:14yeah

00:43:17well it wasn't

00:43:17like being

00:43:18in the office

00:43:20there were

00:43:21slightly less

00:43:21drugs

00:43:22I mean

00:43:23I'm joking

00:43:24but

00:43:26yeah

00:43:27it was difficult

00:43:29it was very

00:43:30difficult

00:43:33it was awful

00:43:35when Michael

00:43:36was sectioned

00:43:37it was really

00:43:37awful

00:43:38I would definitely

00:43:39say that the

00:43:40warning signs

00:43:40were completely

00:43:41ignored

00:43:41we were just

00:43:41incapable

00:43:42we were complete

00:43:43idiots

00:43:44we just carried

00:43:45on

00:43:5890s was not

00:43:59only the last

00:43:59decade

00:43:59of the century

00:44:00of the millennium

00:44:01it was like

00:44:01last orders

00:44:02everybody was

00:44:03just necking

00:44:04stuff

00:44:14I had enough

00:44:15for a lifetime

00:44:17I had enough

00:44:18drink

00:44:19I had enough

00:44:19drugs

00:44:19I had enough

00:44:21excitement

00:44:21I mean I had to

00:44:22realize I could

00:44:22go some more

00:44:25where's Maddie

00:44:26with the drugs

00:44:27she's coming

00:44:29so I let her

00:44:29bring the drink

00:44:30up

00:44:30I just want a

00:44:31quick swig

00:44:32it'll just

00:44:32sharpen me up

00:44:33a bit

00:44:35I don't need

00:44:35a lot

00:44:35otherwise I'll

00:44:36just start

00:44:36turning into

00:44:37a maniac

00:44:40I love the

00:44:41sound of

00:44:41cans opening

00:44:43I like the

00:44:44feel of it

00:44:46where have I

00:44:47put the

00:44:47mints

00:44:51this is what

00:44:52it was like

00:44:52with cocaine

00:44:53where's the

00:44:54fucking cocaine

00:44:56I was a real

00:44:57fucking mess

00:44:58you know

00:44:58I mean I'll

00:45:00tell you that

00:45:02Michael and

00:45:02Martin were just

00:45:04I was an absolute

00:45:05I just couldn't

00:45:06stop

00:45:07literally

00:45:08whatever was there

00:45:09I could just

00:45:09do more than

00:45:10everyone

00:45:11I couldn't

00:45:11stop

00:45:12I don't know

00:45:13if they were

00:45:13drug addicts

00:45:14I was

00:45:14there's no

00:45:15doubt about

00:45:15it

00:45:15I just couldn't

00:45:16fucking stop

00:45:17even with this

00:45:21I don't think

00:45:22I was always

00:45:23the calmest

00:45:24boss

00:45:27when I was

00:45:28chewing somebody

00:45:29out at loaded

00:45:30when five minutes

00:45:31before I'd probably

00:45:31been praising them

00:45:32or giving them

00:45:33the opportunity

00:45:34to go and do

00:45:34a great job

00:45:35I had no

00:45:36control of that

00:45:37it was like

00:45:37a fucking boom

00:45:38on a yacht

00:45:39that wasn't

00:45:39tethered

00:45:40it was just

00:45:41my emotions

00:45:42flying around

00:45:42inside

00:45:44I had terrible

00:45:45mood swings

00:45:45and because

00:45:47I had this

00:45:47big emotional

00:45:48weight

00:45:50growing up

00:45:52through my

00:45:53teen years

00:45:53my mum would

00:45:54occasionally

00:45:54go into the

00:45:55mental hospital

00:45:55because she'd

00:45:56have a break

00:45:56there

00:45:59and at the

00:46:00time

00:46:01if somebody

00:46:02had mental

00:46:02health problems

00:46:03they would be

00:46:04laughed about

00:46:10just what

00:46:10what it was

00:46:11like

00:46:22are you

00:46:22comfortable

00:46:22talking about

00:46:23what it was

00:46:23like

00:46:24no it's fine

00:46:24it was

00:46:25it was

00:46:26it was

00:46:26really hard

00:46:27it was

00:46:28really hard

00:46:33I spoke to

00:46:33on the

00:46:34Friday

00:46:34and I think

00:46:35they found

00:46:35her body

00:46:35on the

00:46:36Sunday

00:46:38my mum

00:46:39had died

00:46:41of an

00:46:41overdose

00:46:44and which

00:46:45I'd been

00:46:45covering up

00:46:46I'd been

00:46:47covering up

00:46:47with cocaine

00:46:48and drink

00:46:55so all of

00:46:56that was

00:46:57inside

00:46:57and I was

00:46:57just layering

00:46:58it up

00:46:59hunting

00:47:00adrenaline

00:47:01hunting

00:47:02excitement

00:47:03shutting down

00:47:05the sadness

00:47:06and the fear

00:47:07and

00:47:091994

00:47:10Lodi comes

00:47:11out

00:47:12by the

00:47:13summer

00:47:13it's obviously

00:47:14a massive

00:47:14fucking hit

00:47:16this is like

00:47:1724 months

00:47:18after my mum's

00:47:19died of an

00:47:20overdose

00:47:21I've been

00:47:22in a state

00:47:22of shock

00:47:26my mum was

00:47:27a really nice

00:47:27person

00:47:28she wasn't

00:47:28kind of

00:47:29permanently

00:47:30insane

00:47:31but then when

00:47:32she would fall

00:47:32apart

00:47:33it was difficult

00:47:33to deal with

00:47:37my dad rang me

00:47:38and told me

00:47:39that they'd

00:47:39found my mum

00:47:41dead in the

00:47:42kitchen

00:47:45and I just

00:47:46remember

00:47:46putting

00:47:48the heart

00:47:50and I

00:47:51remember

00:47:51putting

00:47:51that on

00:47:52there was

00:47:52a track

00:47:52on that

00:47:53album

00:47:53called

00:47:53pressure

00:47:53drop

00:47:56and that's

00:47:56what it felt

00:47:57like

00:47:57it felt

00:47:58like pressure

00:47:59lifting

00:47:59I just

00:48:00thought

00:48:00okay

00:48:01she's where

00:48:01she needs

00:48:02to be

00:48:02now

00:48:05but unfortunately

00:48:07the pressure

00:48:08on her

00:48:08drops

00:48:09and the pressure

00:48:09on yourself

00:48:10comes in

00:48:21we've got a car

00:48:23going from

00:48:23south London

00:48:24up to the

00:48:25Grosvenor house

00:48:26in Mayfair

00:48:28it was the

00:48:29PPA awards

00:48:30which is rather

00:48:31like the

00:48:31BAFTA awards

00:48:32in the

00:48:32consumer magazine

00:48:33industry

00:48:34we were convinced

00:48:35we weren't going

00:48:35to win

00:48:36because we won

00:48:36the previous year

00:48:37and I don't think

00:48:37anyone's ever won

00:48:38it two years

00:48:39in a row

00:48:39so me

00:48:40James and

00:48:41Tim

00:48:42sounds so

00:48:43we dropped

00:48:44acid

00:48:44thinking

00:48:45let's go

00:48:45to the

00:48:46PPA awards

00:48:46on acid

00:48:47what could

00:48:47be more

00:48:47you know

00:48:48rock and roll

00:48:50so we started

00:48:51taking

00:48:51eating the acid

00:48:53and I'd make

00:48:54the others

00:48:54take the acid

00:48:55as well

00:48:56I'd encouraged

00:48:57them

00:48:57they could have

00:48:58said no

00:49:01I could feel

00:49:02that my glasses

00:49:03on my face

00:49:03quite an unusual

00:49:05structure to have

00:49:06on the head

00:49:06when you become

00:49:06very sensitive

00:49:07to everything

00:49:07and then I started

00:49:09being really

00:49:10squashed up

00:49:10in the car

00:49:11and it really

00:49:13kicked in

00:49:13quick

00:49:14James just

00:49:15sort of

00:49:15looked at

00:49:16everybody else

00:49:16and then at

00:49:17me and said

00:49:19this may not

00:49:20have been the

00:49:20best idea

00:49:21for us to

00:49:21drop that

00:49:22acid then

00:49:22and I was

00:49:24kind of

00:49:25pissed off

00:49:25really

00:49:28we went in

00:49:30the room is

00:49:31full of

00:49:32chandeliers

00:49:33lights

00:49:34candles

00:49:34all sorts of

00:49:35sparkly things

00:49:36I'm looking

00:49:37around the room

00:49:37all this light

00:49:39it's a big event

00:49:40the whole of

00:49:40the top table

00:49:41of the magazine

00:49:42industry

00:49:42is there

00:49:43we were sitting

00:49:44on the same

00:49:44table as a

00:49:45couple of

00:49:45the IPC

00:49:46directors

00:49:50two things

00:49:50happened

00:49:51Tim started

00:49:52howling like

00:49:53a wolf

00:49:55and he couldn't

00:49:56stop

00:49:57when the food

00:49:58came they were

00:49:58bringing us

00:50:00square blocks

00:50:01of brie

00:50:01and I can remember

00:50:02thinking Alan's head

00:50:03was turning into a

00:50:04big hairy block

00:50:05of brie

00:50:08I got under the table

00:50:09I couldn't handle

00:50:10all of the

00:50:11overstimulation

00:50:11of the lights

00:50:12and Alan's head

00:50:13and Tim's howling

00:50:13like a wolf

00:50:14so I just got

00:50:15under the table

00:50:16for a bit

00:50:16and then

00:50:19men's magazine

00:50:20had a James

00:50:21band

00:50:26I'm just

00:50:26Jesus fucking

00:50:27Christ

00:50:30and just the lights

00:50:32everywhere

00:50:32and on the way

00:50:34to the stage

00:50:35Miranda had got

00:50:36hold of me

00:50:36and kissed me

00:50:37there's a big

00:50:38fucking lipstick

00:50:39over there

00:50:42just to get me

00:50:42back

00:50:43it was

00:50:47Barry McElhenney

00:50:48who was another

00:50:49editor at the time

00:50:50said at the end

00:50:51of the night

00:50:51he passed me

00:50:52on the stairs

00:50:52and I just had

00:50:53long lines of

00:50:54cocaine

00:50:54you see

00:51:00success

00:51:06can make you

00:51:07feel invulnerable

00:51:09it's like

00:51:10you're in a

00:51:11shopping trolley

00:51:12going downhill

00:51:12like you can't

00:51:14control it

00:51:14you're just

00:51:15going downhill

00:51:19in December

00:51:2096 we went

00:51:22on the loaded

00:51:22tour

00:51:25it was a

00:51:27good idea

00:51:28on paper

00:51:31this is real

00:51:32drug sex

00:51:33rock and roll

00:51:34territory

00:51:34we've even got

00:51:35crisps

00:51:36we've even got

00:51:37Rizzlers

00:51:38because we're

00:51:39on tour

00:51:39with loaded

00:51:40magazine

00:51:40here's Mr

00:51:41Timothy

00:51:41Southwell

00:51:42the deputy

00:51:42editor

00:51:43and co-founder

00:51:43of loaded

00:51:44Tim

00:51:45what is the

00:51:45tour all

00:51:46about

00:51:47I'm playing

00:51:47all the right

00:51:48notes

00:51:49it's all about

00:51:49having a good

00:51:50time and

00:51:50going on to

00:51:51a meeting

00:51:52the readers

00:51:52and basically

00:51:53showing them

00:51:54a good night

00:51:54out

00:51:57at that stage

00:51:58we were all

00:51:58exhausted

00:51:59we'd basically

00:52:00been living

00:52:00the life

00:52:01for all that

00:52:02time

00:52:03the faces

00:52:04becoming

00:52:06bloated

00:52:06and I just

00:52:07don't look

00:52:07very well

00:52:08because I'm

00:52:08not very

00:52:09well

00:52:10the unpleasant

00:52:11side of ladders

00:52:12and perhaps

00:52:13was coming

00:52:13out at that

00:52:13point

00:52:16I mean you're

00:52:17obviously very aware

00:52:18that you know

00:52:18blokes see your

00:52:19pictures in the

00:52:19paper and do

00:52:20various disgusting

00:52:21acts while

00:52:22looking at your

00:52:22picture but I

00:52:23mean which one

00:52:24of those blokes

00:52:25would capture

00:52:25your heart

00:52:26who is your

00:52:27ideal kind of

00:52:28fellow

00:52:28um it's a

00:52:29girl actually

00:52:33by the time

00:52:33we came on

00:52:34stage about

00:52:35eight or

00:52:35nine o'clock

00:52:36everybody was

00:52:37so drunk

00:52:38in the audience

00:52:38when it went

00:52:39wrong it went

00:52:40spectacularly wrong

00:52:42well I didn't

00:52:43know what I was

00:52:43going to expect

00:52:44but it was

00:52:44like an evening

00:52:46with loaded

00:52:46magazine

00:52:48Kathy and Joe

00:52:49would get up

00:52:50on stage

00:52:51and it was

00:52:51just tits

00:52:52out tits

00:52:53out for the

00:52:53lads

00:52:55it didn't

00:52:56feel like

00:52:56ironic sexism

00:52:58any more

00:52:58it felt a bit

00:52:59more like

00:53:00something that

00:53:00could kick

00:53:01off

00:53:02I heard the

00:53:03chanting of

00:53:04my name

00:53:04T-son

00:53:06T-son

00:53:07T-son

00:53:09I left the

00:53:09dressing

00:53:09when I walked

00:53:10out on stage

00:53:10I was met

00:53:11with this

00:53:12sea of young

00:53:14blokes

00:53:15screaming and

00:53:15shouting

00:53:18raining

00:53:19you know

00:53:19plastic mugs

00:53:20of beer

00:53:22standing there

00:53:23on stage

00:53:24with this

00:53:24sort of

00:53:24tidal wave

00:53:25of masculinity

00:53:26breaking over

00:53:27me

00:53:30and I just

00:53:31thought

00:53:32what the

00:53:33fuck

00:53:34have we

00:53:34created

00:53:40what's the

00:53:41best-selling

00:53:41men's magazine

00:53:42at the moment

00:53:42loaded

00:53:43it's the

00:53:44lad's bible

00:53:46acting like a

00:53:47yob and a

00:53:47wally

00:53:48is suddenly

00:53:49cool

00:53:49yeah

00:53:50you're not a

00:53:51drunken dickhead

00:53:51anymore

00:53:51no no no

00:53:52you're a post

00:53:54modern ironic

00:53:55fashion icon

00:53:55yeah

00:53:56the new lad

00:53:57with his

00:53:58loaded magazine

00:54:01lads with a

00:54:02little bit of

00:54:02I know I'm

00:54:03being a lad

00:54:03I know I'm

00:54:05looking at your

00:54:06breasts

00:54:06I know I'm

00:54:07tipping beer

00:54:08over my head

00:54:09I know I've got

00:54:11my willy out

00:54:11and I'm waving it

00:54:12on the beach

00:54:13and I realise

00:54:14that it's a stupid

00:54:15thing to do

00:54:16but I'm doing it

00:54:17anyway

00:54:18bit scary

00:54:19in terms of who

00:54:20the readership

00:54:21was or the

00:54:22readership had

00:54:23become

00:54:23I just like it

00:54:25all the rest of us

00:54:25I just drank

00:54:26through it

00:54:26frankly

00:54:30excessive behaviour

00:54:31was pretty normal

00:54:32some of us

00:54:32were used to that

00:54:33others weren't

00:54:35I could see

00:54:35Christian deteriorating

00:54:37because he's

00:54:38working so hard

00:54:39and he's

00:54:39I mean

00:54:40Christian will tell you

00:54:41I think he was

00:54:42just burning out

00:54:46yeah it wasn't

00:54:47the pressure of

00:54:47getting the magazine

00:54:48out

00:54:51it was the

00:54:52pressure of

00:54:55innately knowing

00:54:56that something

00:54:57wasn't right

00:54:58I've always felt

00:55:00uncomfortable

00:55:00around laddie

00:55:04normal environments

00:55:05I huff

00:55:07yeah I hate it

00:55:09I hate it

00:55:12and um

00:55:15and I drank

00:55:16and I drugged

00:55:20I rode motorcycles

00:55:22and played rugby

00:55:22and did all those

00:55:23things and I was

00:55:24never happy

00:55:26and to be honest

00:55:27I felt ashamed

00:55:28because I thought

00:55:29there was something

00:55:29wrong with me

00:55:31because that's what

00:55:31we get told

00:55:32isn't it

00:55:32there's something

00:55:33wrong with you

00:55:34you know

00:55:34you're fucking

00:55:35pufta

00:55:35you're fucking

00:55:36queer

00:55:36you're fucking

00:55:36this

00:55:37you're fucking

00:55:37that

00:55:37and it's so hard

00:55:40everybody would say

00:55:41to me

00:55:41why are you so angry

00:55:44and you know

00:55:45what's really sad

00:55:45is that the reason

00:55:46for that anger

00:55:47was a lot to do

00:55:48with the fact

00:55:48that I was trans

00:55:49I am trans

00:55:56and instead

00:55:57of trying

00:55:58to reconcile

00:55:59that

00:56:00I blew

00:56:01things up

00:56:03my resignation

00:56:05letter was

00:56:05right then

00:56:05I'm off

00:56:14at what point

00:56:15did you start

00:56:15distancing yourself

00:56:16from lad culture

00:56:18like anything

00:56:19that you do

00:56:19for too long

00:56:19lad culture

00:56:20is kind of fun

00:56:22and then you do

00:56:23it for too long

00:56:23and it isn't

00:56:25but I'm very proud

00:56:26of three lad

00:56:30it's a love song

00:56:31to football

00:56:31I don't know

00:56:32you could have

00:56:33written that

00:56:33without the 90s

00:56:38loaded

00:56:39wanting me

00:56:40and Frank Skinner

00:56:40on the front cover

00:56:44how does it feel

00:56:45looking at that

00:56:47I notice something

00:56:49when I look at the cover

00:56:50I'm slightly

00:56:51standing aside

00:56:51from the overt

00:56:54maleness of this

00:56:55by doing a frightened

00:56:57face and holding

00:56:58my hands over my groin

00:57:00if I was in therapy

00:57:02now as opposed

00:57:02to on television

00:57:03I would say

00:57:04this is a way

00:57:05of saying

00:57:06my groin air

00:57:07is being attacked

00:57:08as it were

00:57:09by loaded

00:57:11because of the messaging

00:57:12that loaded

00:57:13started to move towards

00:57:15that I think

00:57:16is just a bit shit

00:57:18yeah

00:57:25so much had changed

00:57:26by that point

00:57:28but I get out

00:57:29of hospital

00:57:31I'm back in the thick

00:57:32of it

00:57:32in the office

00:57:33trying to prove

00:57:34to myself

00:57:34that things were

00:57:35as they were

00:57:36before

00:57:36I've walked out

00:57:38of a lot

00:57:38psychiatric ward

00:57:39and that's when

00:57:41we're in Vanity Fair

00:57:43with Patsy Kenseth

00:57:44and Liam Gallagher

00:57:45on the cover

00:57:46there we are

00:57:49that's me

00:57:49in the PVC

00:57:50jodhpurs

00:57:51they wanted us

00:57:53to dress like

00:57:54the Droogs

00:57:54and Clockwork Orange

00:57:57you have this

00:57:58very famous photographer

00:57:59David LeChapelle

00:58:00getting everyone together

00:58:01in this very stage

00:58:02managed kind of event

00:58:04but actually

00:58:05I think what's happening

00:58:06for us as a group

00:58:07and within some of us

00:58:08is that we're beginning

00:58:09to come apart

00:58:12me and James

00:58:13had a huge fight

00:58:14on the set

00:58:15James was demanding

00:58:16cocaine

00:58:16they wouldn't go

00:58:17and get him some

00:58:18someone had some

00:58:19we wrapped up a line

00:58:20on the set

00:58:21for some reason

00:58:22he headbutted me

00:58:24it was very Clockwork Orange

00:58:27James and Martin

00:58:29started having a fight

00:58:30me and Michael

00:58:31were just sitting there

00:58:32going what the hell

00:58:33we're doing here

00:58:34so we're all

00:58:35absolutely battered

00:58:36and kind of miserable

00:58:38as well

00:58:39because you know

00:58:39serotonin levels

00:58:40are just completely

00:58:41depleted

00:58:42because at the end

00:58:43of the loaded tour

00:58:44I was pretty messed up

00:58:46they were fucked

00:58:51here it is

00:58:52so this is

00:58:53this is the issue

00:58:56of London swings again

00:58:59this is you know

00:59:00the kind of apex

00:59:01of American

00:59:02taste making

00:59:03saying oh

00:59:04Britain you are

00:59:05where it's at

00:59:06there's Alexander McQueen

00:59:08there are the Spice Girls

00:59:10the British capital

00:59:11is a cultural trailblazer

00:59:13teeming with new

00:59:14and youthful icons

00:59:15of art

00:59:16pop music

00:59:16fashion food

00:59:17and film

00:59:18even its politicians

00:59:19are cool

00:59:21cool Britannia

00:59:22was cemented

00:59:23when Blair

00:59:24invited Noel Gallagher

00:59:25to Downing Street

00:59:27it exists a bit

00:59:28of a post in there

00:59:29London was

00:59:30the happening place

00:59:31right now

00:59:32on the world stage

00:59:43and cool Britannia

00:59:44was when it all died

00:59:45I'm afraid

00:59:47Vanity Fair

00:59:48were interviewing

00:59:49everybody about

00:59:50what it was to be

00:59:51groovy and British

00:59:52it's the absolutely

00:59:54eradication of

00:59:55the quirky outsider

00:59:57when it had just been

00:59:59a few people

00:59:59making a magazine

01:00:01problem with that

01:00:02is the mainstream

01:00:04will always eat you

01:00:05it will always win

01:00:12with success comes

01:00:14a tension

01:00:15FHM had kind of

01:00:17looked at what

01:00:17we'd done

01:00:18and you know

01:00:20very intelligently

01:00:22turned themselves

01:00:22into a slightly

01:00:23weaponized version

01:00:27and their adverts

01:00:28were everywhere

01:00:37what was FHM?

01:00:39just a kind of

01:00:40Wetherspoon's take

01:00:43oh god

01:00:45every month

01:00:46was somebody

01:00:47in a bikini

01:00:47from Hollyoaks

01:00:48on a loop

01:00:50FHM was more

01:00:52heavily down

01:00:53the birds angle

01:00:54that was the moment

01:00:55when the whole

01:00:56lad mag thing

01:00:58became the lad mag thing

01:01:01these new

01:01:02upstart magazines

01:01:03were doing well

01:01:04sales of men's magazine

01:01:06rise by the month

01:01:07it was confirmed

01:01:08that for the first time

01:01:09a lad's mag

01:01:11FHM

01:01:12outsold

01:01:12loaded

01:01:14why do you think

01:01:15that lad's mags

01:01:16did so well?

01:01:18tits

01:01:22in the 70s

01:01:23and 80s

01:01:24porn

01:01:24was absolutely

01:01:26underground

01:01:27it was something

01:01:28that was

01:01:29on the top shelf

01:01:30that was

01:01:31pretty inaccessible

01:01:32maybe they were 12

01:01:34maybe they were 13

01:01:35and they would find it

01:01:35in a bush

01:01:36for some reason

01:01:38it was a joke

01:01:40at the time

01:01:41that young men

01:01:42used to

01:01:44masturbate

01:01:44to the catalogues

01:01:45that their mums had

01:01:46and they would go to

01:01:48the pages that had

01:01:49the bras on

01:01:49that was their fodder

01:01:51for masturbating

01:01:52it was just like

01:01:54kind of tragic

01:01:57you know

01:01:59in the mid 90s

01:02:01porn was coming down

01:02:03from the top shelf

01:02:04into the normal magazines

01:02:07sexualised images

01:02:08just became

01:02:09more

01:02:10loud

01:02:11I think

01:02:12part of the excitement

01:02:14and the frisson

01:02:15of that time

01:02:16was the fact

01:02:17that sex

01:02:18was being brought

01:02:19into mainstream conversation

01:02:22but

01:02:23it's still using

01:02:24women's bodies

01:02:25to sell things

01:02:28a competitive culture

01:02:30will emerge

01:02:31who's going to pay

01:02:32the most

01:02:32for a picture

01:02:33of whoever

01:02:34the most famous woman

01:02:35who is wearing

01:02:36the least

01:02:37is

01:02:37what you end up

01:02:39with there

01:02:39is a

01:02:39you know

01:02:40it's a race

01:02:41to the bottom

01:02:41in every sense

01:02:44the day that

01:02:45FHM

01:02:46just overtook us

01:02:47in sales

01:02:47by about 5,000

01:02:48the management

01:02:50IPC

01:02:50told us

01:02:51you need to start

01:02:51putting women

01:02:52on the carpet

01:02:52every single time

01:02:53because the advertisers

01:02:55are saying

01:02:55they're going to go

01:02:56with them now

01:02:57I was very headstrong

01:02:59they couldn't get me

01:03:00to do anything

01:03:06was Lush ever

01:03:07in Loaded

01:03:08no

01:03:09no we were never

01:03:10in Loaded

01:03:11Love Life came out

01:03:13in 96

01:03:16we got lumped

01:03:17into what was called

01:03:18the shoegaze scene

01:03:19at the time

01:03:20the way that you

01:03:22would promote

01:03:22an album

01:03:23was to get

01:03:24magazine features

01:03:25and reviews

01:03:26and stuff

01:03:27but

01:03:28the landscape

01:03:29had really changed

01:03:30for women

01:03:31hey girls

01:03:33such a lady killer

01:03:34but we know

01:03:35where it's coming from

01:03:36we know the score

01:03:37James denies this

01:03:40because of course

01:03:41he doesn't remember

01:03:42because he was off

01:03:43his fucking tit

01:03:43but you know

01:03:45I remember

01:03:45actually saying

01:03:46like oh you know

01:03:47so you're gonna

01:03:50review our record

01:03:52in Loaded

01:03:53are we gonna

01:03:53get a review

01:03:54and he was like

01:03:55well you know

01:03:56if you strip down

01:03:58to like a bikini

01:03:58or something

01:03:59or your bra

01:04:00and knickers

01:04:00then maybe

01:04:02when I mentioned

01:04:03this to James

01:04:03recently

01:04:04he said like

01:04:04oh my god

01:04:05I would never

01:04:06have said that

01:04:07you know

01:04:07I knew you

01:04:08I'd known you

01:04:09for years

01:04:09why would I have

01:04:10said something

01:04:11like that to you

01:04:12and I said

01:04:12no exactly

01:04:13that's why

01:04:14I remember it

01:04:15and that's why

01:04:15I found it

01:04:16so upsetting

01:04:16because you did

01:04:18fucking know me

01:04:19why would you

01:04:20even fucking

01:04:20say that to me

01:04:22you know

01:04:23it was an insult

01:04:24I thought we

01:04:25were equals

01:04:25and we're not

01:04:26you know

01:04:34how did you react

01:04:35at the time

01:04:39I just rolled my eyes

01:04:41and was like

01:04:41oh fuck off then

01:04:43did IPC put pressure

01:04:44on Loaded

01:04:45to compete

01:04:46with FHM

01:04:47IPC didn't put

01:04:48any pressure

01:04:48on me to compete

01:04:51was that a factor

01:04:52in why you decided

01:04:52to leave

01:04:53no

01:04:55I left purely

01:04:56for financial reasons

01:05:02other people

01:05:02wanted me to work

01:05:03for them more

01:05:05a lot more

01:05:05a lot of people

01:05:06wanted me to work

01:05:07for them a lot more

01:05:07and offered me

01:05:08a lot more money

01:05:09television stations

01:05:10national newspapers

01:05:12and then

01:05:12you know

01:05:13the posh people

01:05:14at Condé Nast

01:05:18they paid me

01:05:18to go there

01:05:19they gave me

01:05:20a signing on fee

01:05:23for the first time

01:05:24I had enough money

01:05:25to buy a house

01:05:29James and I

01:05:30had some spectacular

01:05:32fights and arguments

01:05:33but then he leaves

01:05:34for GQ

01:05:34and I go with him

01:05:37I followed my

01:05:38nemesis

01:05:39my abuser

01:05:40my you know

01:05:40because by then

01:05:41him and me

01:05:41were getting on

01:05:41so fucking badly

01:05:42the obvious next question

01:05:44is why would you

01:05:45go with him to GQ

01:05:47because I knew

01:05:47which side my bread

01:05:48was buttered on

01:05:52the statement

01:05:52by PC

01:05:53put out was

01:05:54we'd like to thank

01:05:55James Brown

01:05:55for helping us

01:05:56launch Loaded

01:05:58they're fucking cunts

01:05:59they helped me

01:06:00launch it

01:06:01I didn't help them

01:06:01they had no idea

01:06:02they had nothing

01:06:03I applied that sort

01:06:04of exciting

01:06:05rock and roll environment

01:06:06to the office

01:06:08James had jumped out

01:06:09of a moving vehicle

01:06:11we were busy

01:06:12there wasn't a lot of time

01:06:13for mourning

01:06:14or reflection

01:06:15I've created the perfect

01:06:16job for myself

01:06:17and along the way

01:06:18that means the readers

01:06:19get the perfect magazine

01:06:20as well

01:06:20what is the non-James

01:06:22version of Loaded?

01:06:42I've never edited a magazine before

01:06:44I've never edited anything before

01:06:46but it'll be fine

01:06:48it'll be fine

01:06:56my name's Derek Harbison

01:06:57and I took over

01:06:58as the editor of Loaded

01:06:59when James left

01:07:01it was so weird

01:07:02becoming editor

01:07:03I've never had so many men

01:07:04want to invite me

01:07:05into toilet cubicles

01:07:08somebody in the staff

01:07:09told me

01:07:09after I'd been editor

01:07:11for a couple of months

01:07:11that I was being treated

01:07:13with some level of suspicion

01:07:15because I didn't do cocaine

01:07:19James was

01:07:21inextricably

01:07:22linked

01:07:23to the magazine

01:07:24it's like taking over

01:07:26from Alex Ferguson

01:07:27at Man United

01:07:28and now it's like

01:07:29who's this dude?

01:07:31what was Derek like

01:07:32as an editor?

01:07:34I mean he was a lot

01:07:34less challenging

01:07:36than James

01:07:36but what we had in James

01:07:38and I didn't appreciate

01:07:39until he'd gone

01:07:40was someone who really knew

01:07:41how to kind of defend

01:07:42and protect

01:07:43certain aspects

01:07:44of the magazine

01:07:46from the kind of

01:07:47corporate intentions

01:07:48of the culture

01:07:49that produced it

01:07:51I remember having to call

01:07:52all the staff together

01:07:53because I've been told

01:07:54by Andy

01:07:55that we really needed

01:07:57to react to FHM

01:07:59and up the girl quotient

01:08:01in the magazine

01:08:02to make more

01:08:03of the craze for babes

01:08:05if you like

01:08:06to monetize babes

01:08:07because clearly

01:08:09it's working on FHM

01:08:10and Maxim

01:08:12I interviewed Dennis Hopper

01:08:14the actor

01:08:14he was a kind of

01:08:16iconic figure

01:08:17he'd been in these movies

01:08:18that we loved

01:08:19but I got called

01:08:22into a meeting

01:08:23with the publishers

01:08:25and they said

01:08:26that we shouldn't have men

01:08:27on the cover anymore

01:08:28I didn't really want

01:08:29to do that

01:08:30there's a lot of

01:08:31quite angry people

01:08:33it was very awkward

01:08:41I remember

01:08:42on more than one occasion

01:08:44walking past a newsstand

01:08:46and doing a double take

01:08:47at a loaded cover

01:08:50because it had

01:08:51TV presenters on it

01:08:53wearing their underpants

01:08:55and feeling like

01:08:58oh why did they have to do that

01:09:00like feeling like

01:09:01worried for them

01:09:03it's one thing

01:09:04if your job

01:09:04is to take your clothes off

01:09:05you know

01:09:06you're page three girl

01:09:07or you know

01:09:08you dance in a club

01:09:09or something

01:09:09but when I saw people

01:09:10who did my line of work

01:09:12like scantily clad

01:09:14I felt vulnerable

01:09:16for myself

01:09:17and also for them

01:09:20I'm here with the gorgeous

01:09:21Gail Porter

01:09:23it doesn't get better

01:09:24than that

01:09:24and she's known

01:09:25for Gail Power

01:09:27Gail Gorgeous

01:09:28and I'm looking

01:09:28to see it in me

01:09:29she's gorgeous

01:09:30did they call

01:09:31you a ladette then

01:09:34I believe I was a ladette

01:09:36I think I was put

01:09:37under that bracket

01:09:38I remember

01:09:39the first time

01:09:40I heard the term ladette

01:09:41there was like

01:09:42one picture

01:09:43of I think it was

01:09:44Zoe Ball drinking

01:09:45Jack Daniels

01:09:46or something

01:09:46but I think it was

01:09:47on her wedding day

01:09:48she can do

01:09:49what she wants

01:09:49my gosh

01:09:50you know what

01:09:51we used to have

01:09:51swigs at Buckfast

01:09:52and we were 12

01:09:55hold on tight

01:09:56boys and girls

01:09:57here we go

01:09:57it's like a fairground ride

01:09:5990s TV

01:10:00it was just fun

01:10:02no one was worried

01:10:03about being OTT

01:10:05back

01:10:06back

01:10:06back a bit

01:10:07you're not wearing

01:10:08safety gear

01:10:08I was feeling

01:10:10a bit dangerous

01:10:11and a bit on edge

01:10:11on the edge

01:10:12you know

01:10:13those custard pies

01:10:14and people were

01:10:15getting gunged

01:10:16of course

01:10:17if you're on TV

01:10:19suddenly people

01:10:19are paying attention

01:10:20to you

01:10:20this was all new

01:10:22to me

01:10:22and it'd gone

01:10:23from our local

01:10:25press in Scotland

01:10:26going oh

01:10:26wee Gail

01:10:27from Joppa

01:10:29and she's done

01:10:30really well

01:10:30we're really proud

01:10:31of her

01:10:32to suddenly

01:10:32you've got

01:10:33the world

01:10:34at your feet

01:10:35I was having

01:10:36a ball

01:10:37welcome to the show

01:10:38girl

01:10:38thanks very much

01:10:39John

01:10:39it's lovely to be here

01:10:40are you nervous

01:10:41excited

01:10:41nervous excited

01:10:42perspiring

01:10:43ever so slightly

01:10:43are you

01:10:46porter musk

01:10:48loaded

01:10:49I think I only

01:10:50did one shoot

01:10:51for them

01:10:51I mean they were

01:10:52nice enough

01:10:53when I turned up

01:10:54but they did manage

01:10:55to get all the clothes

01:10:57in the wrong size

01:10:58and they go

01:10:59oh that doesn't fit

01:11:00oh that doesn't fit

01:11:02oh that doesn't fit

01:11:03maybe you should

01:11:04just wear a sheet

01:11:10when I got asked

01:11:10to do FHM

01:11:11they wanted

01:11:12me naked

01:11:14I phoned my

01:11:15grandma up

01:11:15and I said

01:11:16oh they want

01:11:16to take a picture

01:11:17of my art

01:11:18and she was

01:11:19kind of

01:11:20oh I remember

01:11:21back in the day

01:11:22we had pictures

01:11:23of Marilyn Monroe

01:11:24we had these pictures

01:11:25and it was all

01:11:26very lovely

01:11:27do what you want

01:11:29and I was like

01:11:30yeah alright then

01:11:31good enough for

01:11:32grandma

01:11:32it's good enough

01:11:33for me

01:11:34I was a little bit

01:11:36nervous

01:11:37but then

01:11:39because everybody

01:11:40else seemed

01:11:40to just be

01:11:41fussing with my hair

01:11:43and making sure

01:11:45you know

01:11:45there was fake tan

01:11:46on my back

01:11:47and my mum was there

01:11:49and there was

01:11:49wind machines going

01:11:50and it was quite

01:11:52exciting

01:11:52I was getting

01:11:53all done up

01:11:54it was like

01:11:55being in a movie

01:11:56it was just fun

01:11:57it was make believe

01:11:59I felt quite empowered

01:12:08who here

01:12:09which guys

01:12:10read

01:12:10all these

01:12:11mannequins

01:12:12they sell millions

01:12:13all in it

01:12:14come on

01:12:14now nobody's

01:12:15going to

01:12:15everybody's

01:12:15pretending

01:12:16they don't

01:12:16aha

01:12:16it's an acceptable

01:12:17way of buying

01:12:18pictures of

01:12:19scantily clad women

01:12:20brilliant

01:12:21now is this

01:12:21your girlfriend

01:12:21yes

01:12:23I can't stand it

01:12:24these are talented

01:12:25women

01:12:25you know

01:12:26presenters and so on

01:12:27why do they need

01:12:28to take their clothes

01:12:29on

01:12:29it's not just a woman

01:12:30it's the woman you know

01:12:31it's the one with a personality

01:12:35there's nothing wrong

01:12:36with putting girls

01:12:37in the magazine

01:12:38sex and girls

01:12:39were part of the

01:12:41were part of the

01:12:42conversation

01:12:42as far as we were

01:12:43concerned

01:12:43management start

01:12:45telling you

01:12:46you've got to be

01:12:47more like the FHM

01:12:48we need more

01:12:50flesh

01:12:50Derek

01:12:51we need more

01:12:51women

01:12:52we need more

01:12:53sexy sex

01:13:00competition in media

01:13:02breeds

01:13:04bad behaviour

01:13:05sometimes

01:13:06things would have to

01:13:08be in some sort of

01:13:10flesh fuelled arms race

01:13:17do you remember

01:13:18what happened to

01:13:19Gail Porter

01:13:21Gail was very much

01:13:22your FHM girl

01:13:24that was a time

01:13:25when I think

01:13:26it went too far

01:13:31it was the

01:13:339th of May

01:13:341999

01:13:36I got up in the morning

01:13:38and I was in my bathroom

01:13:41I was doing my teeth

01:13:43and I had BBC News on

01:13:47in the front room

01:13:48and I heard my name

01:13:50and I thought BBC News

01:13:52they're quite sensible

01:13:53why are they talking about me

01:13:56and then I had a look

01:13:57outside my front window

01:13:59and there was journalists

01:14:00photographers

01:14:02outside the house

01:14:03and I thought

01:14:04oh

01:14:05shit

01:14:07I ran straight into the front room

01:14:08and I just saw this image

01:14:15I felt a little bit stupid

01:14:17a little bit let down

01:14:19well a big bit let down

01:14:20that this was a big

01:14:23PR stunt

01:14:24for a magazine

01:14:25and the only person

01:14:27that wasn't informed

01:14:28was the person's image

01:14:29that they used

01:14:30which was me

01:14:34I think it was one of the biggest

01:14:35selling FHMs ever

01:14:38they kind of just

01:14:39used me as a pawn

01:14:40in their game

01:14:44I was new

01:14:45to the industry

01:14:46and when they said

01:14:47they weren't going to pay me

01:14:48I just assumed

01:14:48they didn't pay anyone

01:14:51I was an easy target

01:14:52I guess

01:14:54you think of something

01:14:55like Gail Porter

01:14:56if she stripped

01:14:56buck naked

01:14:58and then got herself

01:14:59on the side of Big Ben

01:15:00you know

01:15:01it did a lot for her

01:15:02consent would have been nice

01:15:04because I most probably

01:15:05would have said no

01:15:07I mean you said

01:15:08that it did a lot

01:15:09for Gail Porter

01:15:10but I read in the paper

01:15:11that as soon as it happened

01:15:12her name was crossed off

01:15:13the live and kicking list

01:15:14to take over from Zoe Port

01:15:15just even walking up the road

01:15:16lots of people

01:15:17pointing at you

01:15:18and sort of

01:15:22yeah

01:15:23making sure you knew

01:15:24that they'd seen you naked

01:15:28she looks very lonely

01:15:29there doesn't she

01:15:31there you go

01:15:38did you know

01:15:39that they were going

01:15:40to stick it on

01:15:40no I didn't

01:15:41that was a shock

01:15:42I must admit

01:15:42I did get a shock

01:15:43all the members

01:15:44were going

01:15:44here here

01:15:46and I thought

01:15:47that's the only seat

01:15:47I'm getting in parliament

01:15:48I'm a people pleaser

01:15:50as well

01:15:50although I definitely

01:15:51was in the 90s

01:15:52that was all I was good for

01:15:54was talking about

01:15:55my arse

01:15:56and FHM

01:15:59there was a strange time

01:16:00in the 90s

01:16:01when men

01:16:02women on TV

01:16:03were mean to females

01:16:07some of them

01:16:08seemed to think

01:16:11that it made them look

01:16:12like some sort of

01:16:13big man in front of their mates

01:16:16whichever one of us is wrong

01:16:18we take off our tops

01:16:26well I hope it's you

01:16:27because I've seen more than

01:16:28enough of us

01:16:31it felt like you know

01:16:32when you get bullied at school

01:16:35when there'd be a group of people

01:16:37a group of lads

01:16:38that would pick on you

01:16:40and they'd all think it was funny

01:16:43and they didn't really give a shit

01:16:44what you thought

01:16:45well go home then

01:16:46if you don't have to shower your arse

01:16:47or slag off Michael Stipe

01:16:48there's no reason for you to be here

01:16:49oh thanks very much Mark

01:16:53I wish

01:16:54I was

01:16:55more in control

01:16:56as opposed to them

01:16:58being in control of me

01:17:00I let

01:17:00people

01:17:02take advantage

01:17:03and I shouldn't have done

01:17:09one of the awful things

01:17:11about sexism

01:17:13is it takes your own body

01:17:14away from you

01:17:15that is the

01:17:16awful thing about it

01:17:17so you are living your life

01:17:18this is your body

01:17:19you're going through the world

01:17:20and what sexism does

01:17:22is says

01:17:22that's not your body

01:17:23it's mine

01:17:25stunts are stunts

01:17:26everybody's trying to do stunts

01:17:27and out stunt each other

01:17:28all the time

01:17:29and things like that

01:17:30we'd already done it

01:17:32classic loaded style

01:17:35we'd just done it badly

01:17:38we projected

01:17:39the cover shot

01:17:40of Joe Guest

01:17:42onto the side

01:17:42of the house of commons

01:17:44and for some reason

01:17:46the PR didn't work

01:17:47it never got any traction

01:17:49and then FHN did it

01:17:50a while later

01:17:51and they got all the love

01:17:53in the world

01:18:00there was no desire

01:18:01to pick up a copy

01:18:02of loaded in 2000

01:18:03or 2002

01:18:05or 2010

01:18:06that was not loaded

01:18:08it's such a shame

01:18:10that it carried on

01:18:11it was basically

01:18:12turned into everything else

01:18:15nuts

01:18:16zoo

01:18:16all that awful stuff

01:18:20women

01:18:21don't expect any help

01:18:23on a Thursday

01:18:26the basic recipe

01:18:28for a successful

01:18:29men's magazine

01:18:30is very simple

01:18:35I picture this as more

01:18:36of an on the train

01:18:37on the way to work

01:18:39and maybe even

01:18:39in the lavatory

01:18:40where a lot of guys

01:18:41like to retreat

01:18:42for a few quiet moments

01:18:45what do you think

01:18:46about Derek going on

01:18:47to set up nuts

01:18:48is that what he did after

01:18:50he left loaded

01:18:52well I mean everyone

01:18:53needs a job don't they

01:18:56I don't introduce myself

01:18:57and go hi I'm Derek

01:18:58I launch nuts

01:19:02it went really dark

01:19:03I think men's magazines

01:19:05that's when they became

01:19:06really misogynistic

01:19:08just tits

01:19:09by the time you get

01:19:11to nuts and zoo

01:19:12they were very conscious

01:19:13that there was a large

01:19:15proportion of

01:19:1613 and 14 year old

01:19:18boys buying that

01:19:19and they were perfectly

01:19:20fine with it

01:19:21and they even lowered

01:19:22the level of verboseness

01:19:24to cater for that

01:19:26does anything stick out

01:19:27in your mind

01:19:28as a time that went too far

01:19:29I think the one

01:19:30that my wife would bring up

01:19:32is a thing in nuts

01:19:33called street strip

01:19:35a couple of the writers

01:19:36would go out

01:19:36into the south bank

01:19:39and ask young women

01:19:40if they wanted to

01:19:42be in the magazine

01:19:43that week

01:19:44we had a studio

01:19:45come upstairs

01:19:49take some shots

01:19:50in your pants

01:19:52and then

01:19:52you're rewarded

01:19:53to be in the magazine

01:19:55and I think

01:19:56I think we started

01:19:57to do things

01:19:58that were a bit weird

01:19:59which you don't see

01:20:00until you stop

01:20:01and go hang on a minute

01:20:02are we being weird

01:20:04and you go

01:20:05oh

01:20:06oh now you mention it

01:20:07yes

01:20:11in the 2000s

01:20:13I went into a newsagent

01:20:14and all of it

01:20:15was lads mags

01:20:17and it was low

01:20:18it was the height

01:20:19of like you know

01:20:19a nine year old boy

01:20:21and you look down

01:20:22the row

01:20:22and it was just

01:20:23woman woman woman

01:20:24woman woman woman

01:20:26tits tits tits tits tits tits tits

01:20:28as if the magazine covers

01:20:29had been designed

01:20:29by computers

01:20:30and I was like

01:20:32again that's the second moment

01:20:33where the words in my head

01:20:34were fucking hell

01:20:35what have we created

01:20:36this is fucking terrible

01:20:38the pornification

01:20:40of the men's mag market

01:20:43felt

01:20:44like it was our fault

01:20:49by that time

01:20:51loaded itself

01:20:52was increasingly tabloid

01:20:54that tabloid soaking

01:20:57got incredibly ugly

01:21:00in the 2000s

01:21:02if you let people

01:21:04get away with being

01:21:05that nasty about women

01:21:07don't be fucking surprised

01:21:10when they push that envelope

01:21:12as far as they can

01:21:16we don't want to see

01:21:18the whole woman

01:21:19we want to see

01:21:20the violated bit

01:21:21and they're always

01:21:24upskirted

01:21:24guys don't be perverse

01:21:26we want to see

01:21:27her fanny

01:21:28through her knickers

01:21:29and we're not even

01:21:30going to ask anymore

01:21:32in the background

01:21:34women were making

01:21:35huge strides

01:21:37campaigners from

01:21:38lose the lads mags

01:21:40have been protesting

01:21:40outside tesco stores

01:21:42across the country

01:21:42today

01:21:43i think that it's

01:21:44part of a cycle

01:21:45of sexual violence

01:21:46against women

01:21:46it's magazines

01:21:47like nuts

01:21:48zoo

01:21:49and loaded

01:21:49which are causing

01:21:50offence

01:22:02what happened

01:22:03to lads mags

01:22:04i think the internet

01:22:05happened

01:22:08suddenly nobody

01:22:09needed a lads mags

01:22:10because they could

01:22:11just go online

01:22:11and they could find

01:22:12all the sexy ladies

01:22:14that they wanted

01:22:15so i think that killed

01:22:17it

01:22:18now porn is really

01:22:19really really really

01:22:20accessible

01:22:20everything's becoming

01:22:22very sexualized

01:22:24the internet

01:22:25the pornography

01:22:27changed masculinity

01:22:29was it worse

01:22:30to have lots of

01:22:30pictures of naked

01:22:31women on the middle

01:22:33shelf

01:22:33or was it worse

01:22:33to have porn

01:22:34on your phone

01:22:35it's all the same

01:22:36thing

01:22:36then social media

01:22:38enters the fray

01:22:39and there's the rise

01:22:41of the manosphere

01:22:42and incel culture

01:22:43so the manosphere

01:22:45is the most important

01:22:45movement alive today

01:22:46people monetized

01:22:47the epidemic

01:22:48of sad and lonely men

01:22:50the sense that

01:22:52women are getting

01:22:52too uppity

01:22:53and they're getting

01:22:54a little too pleased

01:22:55with themselves

01:22:55i learned that

01:22:56someone i thought

01:22:57i loved and trusted

01:22:58was filming my most

01:22:59intimate

01:23:00and private moments

01:23:02i came out of

01:23:03the tv show

01:23:04love island

01:23:05an ex of mine

01:23:05had shared

01:23:06a lot of imagery

01:23:07of me

01:23:08it's hard

01:23:08it's the hardest

01:23:09thing

01:23:09one of the hardest

01:23:10things i've ever

01:23:10gone through in my

01:23:10life

01:23:11the algorithm

01:23:12will always tell you

01:23:14as a young man

01:23:14that this is the way

01:23:15you should be going

01:23:16and that can lead

01:23:17down some very dark

01:23:18paths

01:23:19i think that's where

01:23:20it all gets kind of

01:23:21boiled down into a

01:23:22bad toxic stew

01:23:24i think that you can

01:23:27trace these innocent

01:23:30fun-loving beginnings

01:23:31of loaded to the

01:23:33misogyny of jordan

01:23:34peterson

01:23:35it's a very rare woman

01:23:37who at the age of 30

01:23:38doesn't consider having

01:23:39a child her primary

01:23:40desire and the ones

01:23:43that don't consider

01:23:44that there's something

01:23:45that isn't quite right

01:23:46the misogyny of

01:23:47andrew tate

01:23:48you're going to cry

01:23:48over some bitch

01:23:50man up

01:23:52would andrew tate

01:23:53have happened

01:23:54if loaded hadn't

01:23:55happened fuck yes

01:23:55the guy's a fucking

01:23:56psycho

01:23:57are we one of the

01:23:58influences that made

01:23:59modern britain

01:23:59100%

01:24:00is it our fault

01:24:01no fucking way

01:24:02me and james argue

01:24:04about whether

01:24:04loaded was sexist

01:24:05or not

01:24:06that's what we argue

01:24:06about

01:24:07my argument always

01:24:08was women don't

01:24:09get into loaded

01:24:10unless they haven't

01:24:11got their clothes on

01:24:12right

01:24:13and he was like

01:24:13yeah but no

01:24:14they're really funny

01:24:15and there's this

01:24:16and that and the other

01:24:16but fundamentally

01:24:17that is true

01:24:20it's like you're

01:24:21sitting there saying

01:24:21the grass is blue

01:24:22james the grass is

01:24:23blue look at the

01:24:24fucking covers

01:24:27look at the covers

01:24:28these are not

01:24:28sexualized images

01:24:31he'd get very hurt

01:24:31if i say it was

01:24:32sexist actually

01:24:33because loaded

01:24:34was very close to

01:24:35him

01:24:35you're not just

01:24:36talking about a

01:24:37magazine that he

01:24:38edited

01:24:39that magazine is

01:24:40kind of him

01:24:41at that time

01:24:49how does it feel

01:24:50to know what

01:24:51loaded became

01:24:52after you left

01:24:52you're obsessed

01:24:53with this

01:24:54this is why

01:24:54i don't even

01:24:55want to do

01:24:55this documentary

01:24:56because it's

01:24:57just

01:24:57it's an obsession

01:24:58it's an obsession

01:25:00with like

01:25:01oh

01:25:01oh god

01:25:02it's got some

01:25:03tits in it

01:25:03it's like

01:25:04so fucking

01:25:05what

01:25:05whenever i sort

01:25:07of start trying

01:25:07to discuss it

01:25:08with you

01:25:09you don't engage

01:25:10with me

01:25:11because i'm not

01:25:12interested in it

01:25:12should we just

01:25:13have a break

01:25:14for five minutes

01:25:14sure

01:25:15okay

01:25:27i can't stand it

01:25:29i can't stand

01:25:30the way

01:25:30the perception

01:25:32was

01:25:34it's depressing

01:25:37if you do

01:25:38something good

01:25:38and then

01:25:40as time

01:25:41passes

01:25:42and it becomes

01:25:43something else

01:25:44you have no

01:25:45control over

01:25:46people's perceptions

01:25:46and you have no

01:25:48control over

01:25:49what's happened

01:25:50but also it's

01:25:51quite strange

01:25:52you know

01:25:52that is very much

01:25:53of an era

01:25:53i'm nearly 60

01:26:01every now and then

01:26:02i would draw a cover

01:26:04of what it might be

01:26:06like now

01:26:06just to amuse

01:26:08myself

01:26:09dead old

01:26:10too fast to live

01:26:12too stupid to die

01:26:14win

01:26:15hip replacement

01:26:16and new kidney

01:26:17and liver

01:26:19for men who

01:26:20were definitely

01:26:21past it

01:26:22my first heart

01:26:24attack by adam porter

01:26:27i miss the fun we had

01:26:30i don't think there's

01:26:31ever been a magazine in

01:26:32the history of publishing

01:26:33that's had as much fun as

01:26:34we did

01:26:40i really miss those people

01:26:43and a sense of belonging really

01:26:45loaded as a magazine

01:26:46people don't take life

01:26:48too seriously

01:26:48but also want to live it

01:26:50to the full

01:26:50we were very alive

01:26:54i mean i'm alive now

01:26:56which is

01:26:58quite an achievement i think

01:26:59considering what it meant

01:27:00to be alive then

01:27:03right how are you doing

01:27:05these days

01:27:05what

01:27:06what are you up to

01:27:07these days

01:27:07oh god

01:27:09i make putts

01:27:11if anybody stops me

01:27:12in the street

01:27:12it's not because

01:27:14they go

01:27:14aren't you the guy

01:27:16he used to have loaded

01:27:1730 years ago

01:27:17they go

01:27:18aren't you the guy

01:27:19who was in the great

01:27:20pottery throw line

01:27:21big clay would just explode

01:27:23yeah

01:27:23i'm gonna have to be careful

01:27:24what kind of sober are you now

01:27:26i think the technical expression

01:27:28is california sober

01:27:30well it was taking the things

01:27:31that we took the piss out of

01:27:33and giving them some kind of gravitas

01:27:35it was a post-modern magazine in a way

01:27:38it wouldn't have worked in any other time

01:27:40it was genius

01:27:42absolutely genius

01:27:43and i don't think there's anything

01:27:46like that that's been before it

01:27:48and i don't think there's anything

01:27:49that's going to come after it

01:27:50a bit like elvis

01:27:52it's nice to see that things have changed

01:27:54and women have got a voice

01:27:56and we're more in control

01:27:58so maybe they can take away from it

01:28:01let's not do what gail did

01:28:03i'll get that it's a t-shirt

01:28:05i'll sell it when i go on tour

01:28:07don't do what gail did

01:28:10just be proactive

01:28:11look after yourself

01:28:12don't let anyone take advantage of you

01:28:15and um

01:28:17you'll be fine

01:28:25what's next for james brown

01:28:26i'm gonna go to the pub

01:28:28and i'm gonna drink sparkly water

01:28:30i'm not gonna go into my bedroom

01:28:32and start crying and shooting her

01:28:35wanking or whatever you think i do

01:28:40o

01:28:41i'm gonna go to the pub

01:28:42oh

01:28:43or

01:28:43oh

01:28:47oh

01:28:48or

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