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00:01Lee Mack is a comedian from stand-up to panel shows and his own sitcom not going out which
00:09he writes and stars in most important rule of show business to keep your dignity all times
00:14and not do anything you feel uncomfortable with it's not a good look for the radio time does it
00:19today he's being photographed for the radio times front cover can I do that pin that might
00:24be a bit more comfortable is that all right I did happen to mention that I write in my pajamas
00:29so
00:30they've brought pajamas for me to dress in quite nice these quite like the feeling of the silk
00:34against my skin born into a working-class family in Southport Lee's real name is Lee McKillop making
00:42people laugh runs in the family is this safe when I started doing stand-up comedy my grandmother said
00:50oh like like your great-granddad Billy Mack and she started telling me about him being a variety
00:55hall comedian but I don't really know much about him so you want the more natural approach to drink
01:02your coffee so I just would love to know more about him I feel like I'm a sex model for
01:09sheds hi on my
01:12mum's side I'm very close to him my granddad Joe whilst at the same time knowing very little about his
01:19childhood this is a bit mysterious to me and I'd like to know more about that so you want me
01:23to do
01:23that and relax yeah my grandparents are no longer alive and suddenly they're my parents so in terms of
01:32finding out about my past I haven't got that many people to turn to really but as I get older
01:38I'm getting
01:39more curious I could just have one thing that I came away with from this I want to find out
01:45more
01:46about Billy Mac the comedian or to find out I have a castle for example that I never knew I
01:52owned
02:25right these are my pictures Lee knows his paternal great-grandfather was a comedian in his box of family
02:32pictures are a few mementos from Billy Mac's career that he wants to show his wife Tara so here he
02:39is
02:41Billy Mac my great-grandfather that's his poster for his show it's great it's good in it yeah that's
02:51Billy Mac on the right yeah you tell by the nose what I want to know this Billy Bray character
02:59is as well
02:59I want to know if they were a double act or not that'd be interesting to find out wouldn't it
03:03funny how
03:04they're not laughing or do anything to putting a funny face to try and get you to come in mmm
03:08and
03:10then if you turn it over it says here Billy Mac singing cabbages carbines and carrots what carbines
03:16I've no idea what carbines are twice nightly it's obviously a jobbing comic isn't he's just getting
03:22out there and doing it that's my great-grandfather he's showing down he's not coming and he doesn't
03:30jumping you know I go away sometimes to come back yeah I do this that's what I do in songs
03:35I don't
03:36sing songs about cabbages carbines and carrots though although I might start it might be a very
03:40funny song the sheet casino and it tells you where it is opposite the Queen's Hotel him on the promenade
03:46in Southport I grew up in Southport and I don't know what that was the Queen's Hotel I'm sure is
03:51there
03:51still is the pier opposite the Queen's Hotel we've been on the Southport pier I took you to the end
03:56of the pier didn't I it's not holiday we had yeah that's right you don't know so this is in
04:04dress what
04:04I assume is his act on stage because it's a postcard and it's also signed so he obviously gave these
04:12out
04:12after shows and things he can be dapper isn't he yeah if that's 1919 he's got to be at least
04:17well in
04:18the olden days everyone looked just old all the time he looks about 25 30 does he possibly more 40
04:23even yeah do you know what that says I don't know it says yours terribly Billy 1919 and it says
04:29something
04:29like I took does that say valiant oh I look villainous villainous yes I think you're right
04:36villainous I love this shot it's great isn't it I think that's it yes brilliant shot either my great
04:42granddad was a cross-dresser or that was his act hmm or was that his panto days oh him in
04:49panto now
04:51that's a good point actually maybe he did panto yeah maybe that's his widow Twanky yeah I find it
04:56slightly odd that these autographs are they signed to people and they're ended up in our family to Gladys
05:03Andrew Gladys was under Gladys was my great-grandmother do you know anything about your great-grandmother
05:09um nothing whatsoever absolutely you don't know who married not a thing so what do you think you
05:15want to find out about Billy Mac what do I want to find out I want to find out more
05:21about his comedy
05:21career how successful he was I just generally want to learn more about him Lee's great-grandfather went
05:29by the stage name of Billy Mac but Lee knows his real name was William MacKillop so he's been able
05:36to
05:36order up his birth certificate this is very exciting my first clue I go to that I'm always checking to
05:47see
05:47there's any money yeah I've got birthday card well 1889 birth in the sub-district of Derby and it says
05:58the 6th of May 1889 William Alexander name of father Alexander William nice little twister isn't it
06:08occupation of father mechanical engineer hmm if he was born in 1889 that would mean he saw the first
06:20world war so that was 1914 so that would have made in 25 when the first world war broke out
06:28so he could
06:30have fought in the first world war couldn't he typically as a self-obsessed standard comedian I've
06:36been trying to find out about his showbiz life but actually perhaps there's something more interesting
06:42and profound I should find out like did he fight in the first world war so I suppose a starting
06:47point would
06:47be to go online and see if there's any record of a William Alexander MacKillop possibly dressed in drag
06:58fighting in the first world war MacKillop William oh a British Army World War one medal rolls well he's
07:05not on it oh yes he is date of disembarkation was 7th of November 1915 and what regiment was he
07:15in
07:15ah Kings Liverpool looking at this I'm just as interested in finding out about the army now I
07:23want to know what he was decorated for what did he do particularly that got him this medal if he's
07:27in
07:27the Kings Liverpool Regiment the obvious place to go would be Liverpool
07:38it's quite exciting because of the last 25 years I've just had three pictures now I've got my birth
07:44certificate a year of birth a regiment in the army a potential medal for him for something so yeah
07:51there's lots to go on Lee has come to Liverpool to meet historian professor Peter Doyle hi Lee nice to
08:04see you welcome to Liverpool thank you this is St George's Hall one of the most important buildings
08:09in Liverpool part of the pride of Liverpool it built in the 1850s and you may not know this but
08:15Billy
08:16Mack here he joined the army on the 31st of August 1914 in that building did he I'm fascinated I
08:24obviously know the first of all started in 1914 but what was the date so the war is starting on
08:28the
08:284th of August my birthday there you go on 19 in 1914 so he is doing the first few weeks
08:35within the first
08:36few weeks yeah okay conscription only came in in 1916 so at this time in the war the army required
08:43volunteers and he was one of the first to go and that's an incredible story yeah that is incredible
08:48yeah so let's go inside and look at a few documents in that'd be great I hope they sell out
08:52chocolate
08:53it was a volunteer soldier subscription Lee and Peter have come to Liverpool's Central Library just
08:59across the road from St George's Hall where Billy Mack signed up this is an amazing library yeah it's
09:05incredible and it also has an amazing echo it's the Liverpool echo indeed this is taken on the 31st of
09:13August these are lads queuing up outside of St George's Hall with the hope that they would be
09:18accepted where we were just stood the date he signed up exactly really do we think there's a chance that
09:23my great-granddad is on that photo it's a possibility that'd be like a very difficult game of
09:29where's Wally it worked it was Willie what do you know about the actual King's Liverpool Regiment so
09:34King's Liverpool Regiment is one of the oldest regiments in the British Army and the regiments
09:39had a number of battalions and the 17th battalion that Billy Mack joined is a new phenomenon this is
09:46the Liverpool pals the first of the pals battalions the pals were intended to be battalions of friends a
09:55new idea for World War one first set up in Liverpool they were the brainchild of a local aristocrat Lord
10:03Darby he believed more men like Billy Mack would volunteer if they could serve in battalions alongside
10:10colleagues neighbors and others from a similar background and class that is a lot of boaters it
10:18is I associate boaters with Oxford and Cambridge yeah quite middle-class thing yeah so are we saying
10:25there's a good possibility that my great-granddad is actually quite a middle-class yeah guy at this
10:31point yeah he has to be what we know is is that the battalion are recruited from the commercial houses
10:37engineering companies from the banks and insurance companies a lot of men were scared of the army they
10:44thought it'd be rough you've got Lord Darby saying look I tell you what I'll make sure that all of
10:50you guys will serve together that you will be you know protected there's newspaper reports from the
10:55time which absolutely say you know recruiting has gone well no undesirables that's what it's a by a member
11:04of my family got through that test he did yeah I don't know what it is it's I suppose come
11:08out from a
11:09working-class background so that I've automatically assumed he was a very working-class man you know
11:13I need to show you this okay so this is the Liverpool echo and this is the August the 31st
11:201914 so that's
11:21the date he signed up says he are the first pals taking the oath being sworn in at st. George's
11:27Hall
11:28today yeah I mean you can't believe everything you read in the press but assuming this to be true it's
11:32amazing in half an hour the first 1,000 have been completed yeah a thousand men yeah and signed up
11:39in half an hour yeah it's incredible wasn't it your great-grandfather Billy Mac was one of those we know
11:45that because of his regimental number the regimental numbers for the first thousand starts at one five
11:51zero zero zero zero and Billy Mac was one five six six six and that placed him typical MacKillop six
11:57six
11:58six six so he was the 666 soldier in this country to be a pal that is correct wow this
12:05Liverpool
12:05pal phenomenon spread like wildfire because Liverpool pals were the first and following on from that
12:12every city across England started to say hold on a minute if they can do it we can do it
12:19that's
12:20amazing so he joins up on the 31st of August yeah 1914 but what I mean what happens next obviously
12:26all of
12:26these men have to go and get trained so where did he go for his training Lord Darby's estate at
12:32Noseley
12:39as well as being a little bit surprises from a middle-class family I'm equally surprised to find
12:44out that there was a recruitment campaign for middle-class people because they were basically a
12:49bit worried about being with the working classes I found out fascinating you think they'll just be
12:53terrified of fighting the Germans but no they were worried about mixing with the oi polloi
13:01Lee's traveling to the place where his great-grandfather trained with the pals in 1914
13:09Noseley hall it's quite posh you know it's well in keeping with these middle-class soldiers and their
13:14boats isn't it turn it up here and thinking right we'll have a nice L gray and then we'll get
13:21on with the
13:21fighting shall we chaps it's all very John the measure isn't it it's awfully cold to be marching there
13:26I wonder if we can put one on socks on there's a war on Wilson Lee's meeting historian Dr Andrew
13:35Maunder hello Andrew hello Lee welcome to Nelsey thank you for having me a lot of steps there certainly
13:41are you thought of a stair lift let's go inside this doesn't strike me as an army training sensor no
13:51but
13:51Lord Darby who founded the idea of the pals regiments said that his estate could be used as a training
13:58for the battalions in these ground well not exactly on the driveway it's a very big estate it's about
14:0421,000 acres so they're kind of put out of sight obviously of the people living here we want to
14:11make the men fitter because I'm not very fit I guess they all smoke and they've got kind of
14:16desk jobs yeah yeah so they send them on long cross-country runs and very basic training so
14:22I mean can you tell me anything more about Billy back well we got something here that might interest
14:29you this is an account of the war written by FC Stanley who was the commanding officer of the
14:37regiment Christmas that year at Knowsley was a very cheery time I well remember about the first
14:43performance I saw Billy Bray and his gang of optimists give was in Prescott Barracks Billy
14:50Bray he's on a picture with my great-grandad Billy Mac so that's very interesting but they've not
14:56mentioned Billy Mac okay unless he's one of the optimists right so we do have another document
15:02here from a bit later in the war so the Grantham Journal Saturday May the 29th 1915 okay so this
15:09is
15:09clearly a big review of the evening which ends with at the termination of the above concert Billy Bray's
15:15boys continued the amusement of the troops until after nine o'clock the artists included Billy Mac
15:25comedian hello well that's brilliant that's a great start so you know pianist comedian tenor comedian
15:35another comedian so this sounds much like a gang troupe of it ain't half hot mum type characters
15:43doesn't it I think it's along those lines that you have different acts and people doing their
15:47speciality comedian it is a job that even if you're terrible at it you can actually have a crack at
15:53it
15:53because I can see the conversation can you play anything no can you juggle no sing got anything you
16:00can do he's got a few gags in his repertoire he's some pub gags he's heard and he's been telling
16:04his
16:04mates and why don't you get up and tell those gags on stage that could have been how he started
16:07you
16:08know and I guess they wrote their own material a lot of them as well so you can spend time
16:11kind
16:11of working out an act yeah trying it out on your fellow soldiers so in the barracks I think there's
16:18a
16:18lot of in jokes about army life a lot maybe taking the mickey out of superior officers but not in
16:26front of
16:26the officers right not in front of the officers although if they did the officers could claim
16:29to be a good sport so under normal circumstances I would be reading this think you know isn't this
16:35exciting my great-granddad's comedy career has started but I'm reading the date and I'm well
16:39aware that a few months after this he goes off which I assume it's a fight in the First World
16:44War yeah
16:45he goes off to northern France as a professional comedian you do look out for the laughs so going to
17:08the northern France talk about the First World War it doesn't scream source material for for jokes
17:14does it and that's me now in 2018 imagine what he was thinking if he was a comedian where does
17:23that
17:23fit in with what he's doing he's fighting a war and to some degree he's probably thinking it'd be great
17:28hey guys why don't we put on a gang show us we're out there and people looking at him going
17:33no mate not now
17:40oh this might be news about Billy Mac now I'll interpret for you Madam Monsieur we are pleased to
17:47inform you that Billy Mac survived the war had a wonderful great-grandchild very talented and he had a
17:58difficulty with the uh some of the audiences in Sunderland Lee wants to find out what happened to
18:16Billy Mac when he came to this part of northern France to fight in the First World War he's traveling
18:24to a
18:24village called Maricor which in 1915 lay right on the Western Front Paul he's meeting military historian
18:35and soldier dr. Paul Knight the winter 1915 into 1916 nothing particularly big it's happening for the
18:42battalion that your great-grandfather's part of and then they move down to the pier and they're moving
18:47down here ready for the big push this is the first of July 1916 this is the first day of
18:52the Battle of
18:53the Somme and your great-grandfather is right in the middle of it wow he was actually in the Battle
18:58of
18:58the Somme absolutely the Battle of the Somme which Billy Mac took part in was a major offensive that had
19:06been seven months in the planning in an attempt to break the German line on the Western Front the Allies
19:13launched a week-long artillery bombardment followed by an infantry attack on the 1st of July 1916
19:24it would prove to be the bloodiest day in the history of the British army with nearly 20 000
19:29British soldiers killed in just one day
19:35this is a map from July 1916 this blue line here this is at the British front line with the
19:41blue line
19:41crosses the road that's where we're standing at the moment so we're actually on the British front
19:45line we're on the British front line of 1st of July 1916 so it's almost literally on this spot indeed
19:51wow so this would have been a big trench yes across the road it's a French army the French artillery
19:57they
19:58have a lot of heavier guns than the British army we've got access to you want to be next to
20:02the French you
20:02do want to be next to the French um on the day like today and all the red that's all
20:07the German
20:07positions this is Dublin trench and this is your great-grandfather's objective their target was
20:12to get from there to there yes it's about 1100 meters up this road so 07 30 in the morning
20:18the
20:18infantry attacks your great-grandfather he's in the third wave that attacks all the soldiers will
20:24have been issued rum to steady their nerves so they're basically getting a bit tipsy before they
20:29go better Dutch courage so roughly 7 30 a.m my great-granddad is here going over the top yes
20:36across
20:36this field in front of you all right so you should be able to recognize what's on the screen well
20:41that's this map so that red dot i'm assuming is is that where we are now that's exactly where we
20:47are
20:47now right so if i move that will move with me yes this is incredible so using this we can
20:52follow
20:52billy mac's footsteps going into no man's land absolutely and he definitely did it with an ipad
21:00yes let's go okay i mean it is incredible to think that my great-granddad was actually doing
21:06this yes so he's now in no man's land here is yes i mean what is he look what's he
21:10seeing well
21:11there'd be masses of men left and right all moving forward at the same time as far as you can
21:15see so
21:15he's in the middle of this big movement of men i'm picturing barbed wire yep i'm seeing sort of smoke
21:22everywhere from the from the lots of yeah lots of artillery fire but they steal the shells going
21:27overhead there'll be the machine guns firing to support him smoke has been fired onto german positions
21:33to try and stop the germans from seeing the attack and it's so counterintuitive if you see a man in
21:38front of you fall to the ground he's been shot the last thing you think is i'll run in that
21:42direction
21:42well a lot of the accounts are saying that they they are walking forward walking it's to control the
21:47man and also when you get up there you don't want to be exhausted so everybody gets in
21:52german trenches at the same time blimey so we're very close now to the trench that he was trying
21:57to get to is the idea to get in there and kill these soldiers or to capture them either both
22:03so
22:03they surrender good if not he'll go in with the bayonet and he'll um you know shoot people if
22:08needs be that's what he's been trained to do for the last two years but this could be the first
22:12time
22:12he's had to do that very probably yes and he won't know how he reacts until he's in that position
22:18well you've got to do it take somebody else's life it's a bit uh it's a bit of a sobering
22:24thought
22:26right so this is it the red dot is on the trench so this this is his target yes so
22:31your great
22:32grandfather this is his objective the war diary says weak resistance but also we do know that 300
22:37of the germans are captured so he would have been responsible perhaps capturing them and taking
22:41them back to the village very possibly yes so we've got one more thing to show you in the village
22:45shall we go and have a look let's have a look lee has come with paul to the village of
22:53montebon
22:54which before the battle lay behind german lines okay so here's another thing for you to have a look at
23:02ah the liverpool pals yes 17th 18th 19th and 20th battalions the king's liverpool regiment my
23:09great granddad being in the 17th of course yes to the glorious memory of the liverpool and manchester
23:17pals who was part of the 30th division liberated this village first of july 1916. so after billy
23:25mac and his pals got through those trenches they liberated this village billy max actually is out in
23:31the fields where we've just been this is a team effort so the fact that he secured the section out
23:37in the
23:37fields allows other battalions to advance on the village this is immensely successful and very
23:43very few casualties so that's the first day of this push but how long did the whole thing go on
23:48for
23:48well the battle the sun runs on until november 1916 and uh billy mack would have been out here and
23:55fighting throughout that whole period a couple weeks apart there'd be another battle blimey all righty
24:00so we've got something else to show you here okay this is the account by his uh commander fc stanley
24:06yes we turn to page 177 we're going to start reading from there i have hardly made any mention up
24:12till now of our entertainers the optimists ah billy mack and the optimists indeed so it mentions
24:18in the summer of 1916 so that implies that they were performing here yes that's incredible
24:31he wants to know more about billy mack's act when he was performing at the front with the optimists
24:39to find out more he's traveling north to belgium just outside ypres following in the footsteps of
24:46his great-grandfather who was sent to this area with his regiment in the summer of 1917
24:53freezing hello rebecca hi nice to meet you nice to meet you too he's meeting historian dr rebecca
24:59de monte so things to discuss about my great-granddad billy mack we are literally just a few miles away
25:05from where billy mack was fighting in the battle of lease and i've got an account of uh his time
25:12in the
25:12battle uh performing with the optimists in the afternoon the optimists undefeated fellows
25:20gave an outdoor concert in the ordinary and very mud-stained clothes the concert was a great success
25:27both with our own men and also with the french troops i found that gobsmacking that it says
25:32gave an outdoor concert in the ordinary and very mud-stained clothes ordinary being
25:39their uniforms absolutely literally yeah the same day as walking off a battlefield yeah so the very
25:45morning of the performance there was still a battle going on and billy mack was part of that
25:50and it was a very bloody battle a very difficult battle with lots of people who were killed but
25:55that's unbelievable to actually be shot at or perhaps have killed someone and then
26:00walk on on the stage putting on these performances became a way for them to normalize
26:05their experience it helped uh people feel more sane in such a a complicated and difficult situation
26:14it's not just a bit of fun that the the people at the top thought if we can keep these
26:19soldiers
26:19entertained and distracted it might be better for everybody i think it was a complete lifeline
26:24i'm thinking of my great granddad billy mack thinking is it what's he going through because he's
26:29he's not watching his performance he's in it yes and it wasn't just that they were putting on
26:33a performance uh in a ready-made theatre this was actually happening on the front line so you could
26:39see all the trenches around them that's incredible it is incredible wow what kind of comedy was billy
26:46mack doing i mean i'm guessing it wasn't observational stuff i bet you didn't say a funny thing happened
26:51to me this morning and they're like yeah we know we were with you mate wasn't funny pretty horrific
26:56so the kind of humor that there was could be very dark there was a story told about a soldier
27:02walking along one day in the trenches and finding a cap and he kept scrabbling down and eventually
27:07found found a soldier underneath that cap buried in the mud and he said oh no you all right and
27:14the
27:14soldier said yes i'm absolutely fine i'm just worried about the driver of the bus that i was standing on
27:19top of and obviously a lot of a lot of people were buried alive in the mud and died that
27:28way so this is
27:29a way then to use uh comedy as as a uh as a release as a way of dealing with
27:35that very difficult situation
27:38take a look at this oh the intrigue so what we got here we've got two postcards ah and that
27:46is the
27:46optimists wow the big question is is any of those people billy mack oh my gosh that is him i
27:54think in
27:55the middle that's right it is that is billy mack that is amazing and another one far left wow to
28:03see
28:04him in the optimist like that you know get a sense of it and there's always writing on the back
28:10there
28:10is writing one of the many concert parties traveling about near the front line they are the best i have
28:20seen so far that's a good review it is very and there were hundreds of concert parties at this time
28:26so it shows the high esteem in which the optimists were held well that is brilliant i'm so impressed
28:33with that and it also video footage of it no the big question is is did they stay together after
28:401918
28:41there is no other report that we can find of the optimists which suggests that they've broken up or
28:47gone their own way oh maybe billy matt was the robbie williams of his day and said sorry lads
28:56i've got my own tools to do and then billy bro hang on i'm coming
29:08back in the uk lee has traveled to southport where he knows billy mack was performing soon after the
29:14war at a venue opposite the queen's hotel on the promenade i absolutely love southport best town in
29:21the world lee was born and grew up in southport all right how you doing you all right there's my
29:30auntie francis's optician over there where she used to work oh look bates is staring me my uncle
29:35malcolm used to work with you malcolm kingsley do you know him yeah yeah me and my mate cleggie
29:43we used to spend a lot of time in here above uh it's where my mom had a wedding reception
29:48for
29:49a second marriage somewhere around here is the queen's hotel i'm not getting confused am i ah there
29:54we go the queen's hotel cheap casino opposite the queen's hotel now as you can see opposite the queen's
30:01hotel is the southport theater which you know that's not that's not a very old building is it
30:09behind the southport theater and opposite the queen's hotel is the waterfront where lee's meeting
30:15historian and showman dr tony liddington hello tony how are you i'm all right man yeah this is my
30:22great-grandfather billy mack yep he fought in the first world war battle of the somme he was in a
30:27piero clown sort of group and i know he played this show yeah at the chic casino i think chic
30:35is the name
30:35of the show and casino is the name of the venue a casino is a kind of um it's an
30:41italianate term for a
30:43a place of entertainment and this new venue the casino has been built here as a temporary structure
30:50what's called a fit up so do we know when this was well the show opened in may 1919 and
30:57it ran the
30:57whole summer season until september i should say this is the first evidence of him being a professional
31:02comedian absolutely well let's go inside the theater and then i'll tell you a bit more about it
31:05okay um southport theater so i've never actually been on this stage although it was the venue of
31:14the first comedy show i ever saw i saw les dawson in the mid-70s was absolutely brilliant one of
31:20the
31:20things i'm really trying to find out is what billy mack actually did in his act all i've got is
31:24evidence
31:24of what he used to do these two photographs so that's a swell character somebody who's a bit posh a
31:30bit dapper and this one is obviously a comedy character a dame type of role that he might have
31:35done he's got a bit of the les dawson's going on as well yeah yeah the woman next door to
31:39having a
31:40good old gossip yeah that's why her hands are like this and uh and pushing up the bosom and things
31:44yeah yeah she's had it all taken yeah yeah you're there you've inherited it so do you think billy
31:49bray and billy matt were a double act i think it's likely they must have had banter when they were
31:54with the optimists so they've brought that into this new act and it would be accessible uh
31:59entertainment something that the whole family can see the only bit of evidence of material
32:04in his act is is on the back doesn't it hear billy mack sing cabbages car beans and carrots at
32:09this
32:09time there were quite a lot of musical songs that were coming out and curiously a a whole series of
32:14them that were about vegetables so particularly popular at the time do you know the marrow song
32:19you know what a beauty i've never seen one as big as that oh yeah that sort of thing yeah
32:23and they're
32:23allowed to sing that in front of the kids they could i mean it's uh it's all in the ears
32:27of the
32:27beholder i would have said that it's it's not it's not crude it's suggestive yeah yeah i've got
32:32something to show you okay here we have a song sheet so this is the original song sheet that he
32:39will
32:39have used well it wasn't his material the songs written in 1919 and they're covering it in that same
32:44year so cabbages cab beans and carrots carrots and cab beans and cabbages sweetest of flowers that i
32:54love so i love to sit there and watch them grow some people like rhododendrons and some forget me
33:04not but i'd rather have a nice plate of cab beef with cabbages cab beans and carrots
33:12he just brought it to life but amazing you could do it if you had that that little picture that
33:18you
33:18had of of her like this yeah yeah and you think hyacinth bouquet do you think he was dressed like
33:22that when he was singing it i reckon so suits the act yeah well that's fantastic my kids are just
33:27learning piano so maybe i could get them to play that whilst i sing along and then my kids can
33:31give
33:31me that look of please can we have a playstation please dad so it was a pretty momentous summer season
33:39in lots of ways the 7th of july 1919 william alexander mckillop marries gladys evelyn burford so that is my
33:49great grandmother ah that is to gladys he signed that to gladys wow he met her because she asked for
33:58an autograph that can't be true well at this point he's saying you're sincerely well it makes sense
34:05why it stayed in the family you don't think of autographs staying in the family they go away to
34:08other people don't they wow isn't that brilliant he's ended up marrying an autograph hunter
34:16well the next reference we've got uh is this this is a birth certificate from what is dated the 12th
34:23of march 1922 ah the birth certificate of john burford mckillop which is my grandad occupation of
34:32father manufacturer of wireless apparatus so that does imply that he stopped oh billy mack
34:42maybe he had a bit of work from 1919 to 1922 but it definitely implies that 1922 it's over
34:51so he started a family and perhaps stopped doing comedy isn't that a shame that he didn't carry on
34:55mm-hmm so i think you might be interested in seeing this ah this is the sad news this is
35:01the death
35:02certificate 1959 william mckillop occupation here we go again sales representative it was a very short
35:14career in comedy wasn't it because in my head he was a comedian and yet to him he probably saw
35:20his
35:20comedian world as a small little thing he did for a few years if he's a sales rep making people
35:25laugh
35:25is a good way of selling stuff as well so i'm sure he used it yeah he used the patter
35:29yeah
35:37billy mack has definitely come alive in my head i definitely have gone from some abstract character
35:43there was three photographs to really feeling that i know him more his comedy career was weirdly not as
35:55big as i thought it was and yet at the same time more important than i thought it was because
36:01you know he didn't go for decades in the variety halls of great britain but actually it sounds like he
36:08did
36:10you know a really worthwhile job with it you know this boosting of morale during the war sounds like
36:14you can't be underestimated so the question is is if billy matt was a comedian and i'm a comedian
36:23can it be genetic and i would guess that the answer is no i think it's more likely that it's
36:32about
36:32upbringings if he was the kind of person that was a joker messed about and he passed that on
36:39to his son that would make sense about why my grandad passed it on to my dad because my dad
36:45was a
36:45joker so maybe it's just passed on
36:58lee's hometown of southport is also where his mother grew up and now he wants to look into that
37:03branch of his family thanks on my mom's side there is my granddad joe which was her dad and he
37:12lived
37:12in southport until he was 93 so we saw a lot of each other we still look up to granddad
37:18joe and
37:18everyone knew him if i walked down the street with him everyone hey joe hi joe everyone knew who he
37:23was
37:24as for granddad joe's past i don't know a massive amount he was brought up by his grandparents in
37:30ireland and i've got some vague notions to do with his mom going to canada and everything else is a
37:35bit of a mystery to be honest with you so i suppose the first port of call to find out
37:42about granddad joe
37:43is uh his daughter my auntie francis my auntie francis also lives in southport so
37:51i can just pop up the road and see i know
37:55when i was a kid my mom wasn't very well for a while and so i went to go and
37:59live with my auntie
38:00for about a year so i'm very close to my auntie francis
38:07hello lee nice new musical doorbell can i come in your warm house come in yeah
38:14i love this photograph because my immediate blood relatives are all on this photo
38:18it's lovely so we've got you mm-hmm yes yeah my dad there mm-hmm with my mum yes my
38:26brother darren
38:27yes and then there's granddad joe over here yes next to my grandmother yes and if you pan down
38:33you can see me yes with my little wet pants my mum didn't say at any point you need to
38:38change your
38:38trousers and this is granddad joe's 80th and me i'm very thin i'd say too thin looks like a bread
38:45knife
38:46no but it's how you were then i can see granddad joe's eyes going i can't believe you got an
38:51earring he was such a healthy looking 80 year old wasn't he well he was healthy he was a very
38:58hard worker well he used to climb these ladders and clean his top windows i think oh yeah because
39:02he didn't trust the window cleaner to do it properly i mean people call me a control freak but
39:06he broke the mold for that but that's probably what kept him so fit he didn't worry he was always
39:12obsessed with money and how far down in your pocket is it that's right he was very money conscious
39:17so i suppose the first thing i want to ask is what do we know about granddad joe's parents
39:24well not a lot actually um he was born in southport 1910 and we know this because he told us
39:32because he didn't actually have a birth certificate we just never registered
39:36i don't know his mother uh was delia okay so my great-grandmother is yeah this is a photograph
39:44of delia yes so this is granddad joe's mum yes she actually looks quite young on that doesn't she
39:49and all i know is she got pregnant but we never knew who the father was she went back to
39:56ireland with
39:56her granddad your granddad joe to her parents i wonder how old he was then i'd always thought that
40:03he was only a weeks old but i'm not too sure about that and she left him there with the
40:08grandparents
40:09they brought him up with their own family and she went off to canada and do we know why no
40:14it is a
40:15complete mystery to us as to why she did it i don't know whether my father was ever told and
40:20if he was
40:20he didn't discuss it so what do we know about granddad joe's grandparents that brought him up my
40:26great-great-grandparents uh not a lot he was called thomas uh she was called mary thomas and mary farrell
40:36and they came from a smallish town in southern ireland called balina county mayo balina so that's
40:43where granddad joe is taken to balina yeah this is granddad joe when he was a baby or a toddler
40:50and that's his grandfather who brought him up i've never seen this man ever before in my life my
40:55great-great-grandfather thomas that's a great photograph and don't you think the grandfather
41:01looks very relaxed with him yeah like his father yeah they brought him up with love and kindness i
41:07know they did but he must have had a sense of abandonment my natural instinct is to go the heartless
41:13woman yes just leaving a baby so i've got no affection for her yeah and loads of affection for
41:18poor grandma joe who's left in iron that's how it feels i think to find out anything more i should
41:23probably go to balina yeah because there's nothing here i've done my best to trace
41:29what i can and there's nothing come up at all
41:33lee knows his grandfather's full name was joseph francis kingsley
41:38and that he was the illegitimate son of delia farrell
41:41the fourth of 11 children born to thomas farrell and his wife mary
41:53lee is traveling to balina in the west of ireland where the farrell family lived
41:58and his granddad joe was brought up i think the fact that delia my great-grandmother would leave
42:07grandad joe as a baby or a small child in balina and then go off to canada
42:14as a dad myself that you know it it does feel a bit cold i'm trying not to be too
42:22harsh on the woman because i
42:23don't know why that happened if it's possible i'd like to find out why she did it
42:30it's quite strange to be going to balina because it's a place that i've heard about throughout my
42:35life but never visited this is more of a town than i was expecting but it's very nice to
42:45to work out the chain of events that led to his granddad joe being left by his mother
42:50to grow up in balina with his grandparents lee is meeting social historian dr elaine farrell
42:56at the local archives welcome to my library thank you very much
43:05census of island 1911 thomas farrell my great great granddad age 60 occupation
43:13i think that says laborer yeah mary farrell wife
43:19uh delia kingsley daughter she was 22 and we've got matthew felix kingsley
43:30and he is the grandson
43:35okay this is interesting he's one years old and that's in 1911 a year after my grandfather was born
43:41are you telling me that my granddad joe changed his name matthew felix kingsley must have been
43:47his original name so the date the year of birth matches up the name of his his mother you know
43:53he's the child of delia kingsley wow he never ever once said this ever maybe he didn't know
44:04because there's no birth certificate we've got no birth certificate there's no birth certificate
44:08or it can't be located can't be found yeah so he's born in southport as matthew felix
44:15and then he comes here a year later he's still called matthew felix because that's what it says on
44:21on this census but then he becomes joe kingsley yes when did that happen we know by the time he's
44:29a teenager when he's in school that he's known as joseph francis kingsley maybe it was his grandparents
44:36actually who changed his name so one of the things that stands out here is delia kingsley married for
44:43two years i think we assumed it was possibly a one-night stand there's no evidence that delia was
44:49actually married but she doesn't want to admit this on the census or perhaps even to her own family
44:55yeah i would imagine her family are aware of the situation and that thomas farrell just wants to
45:02present her as being married that's what they'll be telling friends and people as well and neighbors
45:05yeah there was a huge stigma attached to having a child out of wedlock in 1911 for a woman with
45:13an
45:13illegitimate child like delia it would be hard to find a job or get married we know delia goes to
45:21canada but we don't know when i don't know why you know that's the mystery but so take a look
45:27at
45:27this might give you some more clues okay so this is some sort of booking details for a boat so
45:33we've
45:33got delia farrell top of the list so that's interesting because she's she's on the passenger
45:39list as delia farrell not delia kingsley um so she's presenting herself now in the passenger list
45:48as being unmarried wonder why that would be i suppose just because symbolizing i'm starting a new life and
45:54yeah destination montreal this doesn't tell us the date that she actually went though september 1911
46:01ah so she left him when he was just over a year yeah so he's about a year and a
46:05half what does this
46:06i can't really read it but what is this column so this information here would be how did a person
46:12pay
46:13and for their for the ticket bonus allowed somebody francis and gang mrs francis and gang
46:21so it says there bonus allowed mrs francis so this indicates that her passage was paid by a mrs francis
46:31okay who's mrs francis so this document might give you some more clues
46:39okay so this is the women's domestic guild of canada mrs e francis in montreal this feels like
46:46almost like a an advertising brochure to to let people know that we can give you domestic help
46:52or something the domestic guild then was essentially like a recruitment agency oh okay
47:01oh okay so her ticket was paid by a recruitment agency in canada they would have advertised in local
47:08newspapers so it's likely that your great-grandmother delia maybe saw one of these advertisements we still
47:15want to start bringing some money in you're going to have to go to canada and earn some money to
47:18send
47:18it back or is he saying we can't keep this lie up that you're married to this manic mystery man
47:25in
47:25england i think it's time you just went away you know i mean obviously there's a limit to what you
47:30can know right yeah yeah we don't know um whether it was your great-grandmother delia who wanted to
47:34go to canada or was it actually her father thomas and or her mother mary who who were encouraging her
47:40to go or kind of pushing her to go but it must have been a very difficult situation for both
47:45your
47:45granddad joe and for his mother delia you know to be separated yeah well that's the thing isn't it
47:52because he's one so he doesn't have any idea of why his mom's just vanished but from her perspective it
47:58must have been extremely heartbreaking you know she's been with this baby for the first year of his life
48:03and then she's got to go wow i started off thinking it's quite cold to leave your baby then i
48:12thought sounds like she needed to go she needed to work she might have been sent by thomas her dad
48:17it wouldn't even be that unusual in ireland at that time for a child to be kind of reared as
48:22an
48:22as another child of grandparents so it would be nice to find out more about where granddad joe was
48:30brought up so we know from the census where the family that the family were actually living at six
48:34hill street in ball now i think i have more sympathy for delia now i know a bit more about
48:48perhaps
48:49what led to it what else could she do it's easy for us nowadays 100 years later to judge that
48:57as a
48:57woman handing her baby over like perhaps i've been doing them we've all been doing in our family a
49:01bit but actually perhaps it was more socially acceptable and normal to hand your baby over
49:06to the grandparents rather than be seen as a single mom which was totally unacceptable
49:19lee wants to find out about his granddad joe's upbringing with his grandfather thomas farrell wife
49:25mary and their other children he knows they were living at six hill street can i ask you a favor
49:31yeah
49:31i'm looking for hill street yes do you know it yes where is it you've got to tell me as
49:36well
49:37not just a quiz no all right right just go down here right cross the road and the first
49:41race that's history thanks a lot okay nice to meet you now let's go this way
49:51all right there's no numbers on these doors anywhere hi lee hello there how are you welcome
49:58to professor dear mid ferriter has come to meet lee i'm a bit lost you're a bit lost i'm looking
50:03for
50:03six hill street there's no numbers on these doors so i'm just assuming the postman just knows everybody
50:09exactly yeah well you are standing in the middle of hill street and if you turn around that is where
50:13your great great grandfather thomas was living and that's where your grandfather joe was an infant
50:19he never told me he grew up in a pub he didn't grow up in a pub oh it's a
50:23pub now that's a new
50:24structure but if you take a look up here you will get an idea of what the original houses looked
50:30like
50:30but there were only two rooms in it and there were eight of them in the house two bedrooms two
50:35rooms
50:35so bedroom come living room come everything else you're doing room you're dealing with people
50:40of very modest means your great great grandfather was a general laborer yeah but he's also in 1911
50:4560 years of age he's old right oh he's beyond the average life expectancy of an irish male which was
50:5159
50:51years of age at that stage and he's working well is he working it's doubtful so with eight people in
50:58the house is there enough money to feed everybody that's the big struggle this is a hand-to-mouth existence
51:05dear mid is taking lee into the pub that stands on the site of the farrell family home
51:11now they have brought you in here to show you a few things that relate directly to your great great
51:16grandfather the first is from 1915 have a look at this here's the third one down oh this is to
51:26do
51:26with complaints this is the petty sessions he has been accused of committing a crime
51:31oh details of the crime are there here we go thomas farrell ballina so it says that you the defendant
51:40not being duly licensed to sell wine spirits beer cider or sherry did so on the something of november 1915
51:52now if you look very very closely you will see a word written above the charge in pencil oh yeah
52:01does it say sherbet because if he was illegally selling sherbet as well surely it's she bean do
52:06you know what a she bean is is that uh like um illegal homemade wine so you're very close there
52:12what we have is the word she bean gradually evolving over time to mean the place where
52:19this illegal produce can be sold and can be consumed so that people are essentially running
52:24an underground pub and this is a charge that your great great grandfather thomas
52:29was engaged in so this house that is already packed to the rafters with children
52:34there's also a pub an illegal pub that sort of makes sense of perhaps how he was afforded to
52:41to to to pay look after my granddad joe was this some kind of a sideline business that he had
52:47to
52:47keep their heads above water uh so the defendant is ordered to pay a fine two pounds and ten shillings
52:54so that's a lot of money right in those days isn't it it's a hefty fine and there's much more
53:02take a look at this lot oh god what else has he been doing so this is the 28th of
53:07october 1913 so we're going back a little bit now here we go thomas farrell that you said
53:12defendant not being duly licensed there it is again go again to sell wine spirits beer ale cider or
53:19sherry then we've got one here thomas farrell this is 1905 now we're going back again uh that you the
53:27defendant not being duly licensed now we're going back to 1892 thomas farrell not being duly licensed
53:35so this is a regular thing he's a serial offender wow he's almost factored in the fine i reckon if
53:41he
53:41keeps doing this he must have still thought overall it's worth doing i think that's a very fair conclusion
53:45which is good news in a way because it means grandma joe wasn't going hungry as a result of this
53:49fine probably you think about the fourth one the judge would be saying if you don't mind me saying
53:53mr farrell have you thought of opening the pub then we're all then we all win now we've more
53:58documentation here relating to thomas from a couple of years later have a look at that
54:04i'm dreading to read this now okay so this is obviously some sort of insurance claim he made
54:08it says here that on the night of thursday the 28th of september 1922 at hill street balanar
54:15the doors and the windows of my property were wantonly and maliciously damaged
54:22injured by rifle fire so who would fire bullets at his house i'm guessing not not the local off-licence
54:29because he's selling all this illegal beer have a look at the date dated the 29th day of september 1922
54:38so i'm no expert on irish history but even i know obviously around this period there was quite
54:43a lot of uprisings against british rule are you aware of what happened after the uprisings against
54:50british rule remind me there was a civil war okay that date september 1922 is the middle of the irish
54:59civil war the irish civil war was triggered by a treaty drawn up between the british and irish republicans
55:08after the war of independence this treaty established a new free state of southern ireland
55:14but one which would remain a dominion of the british empire bound by an oath of allegiance to the crown
55:21many saw this as a betrayal of what they'd been fighting for
55:25so republicans split into two camps pro and anti-treaty and turned on each other in a bitter
55:32year-long civil war that saw towns and families divided
55:39so the people obviously firing at my great-great-granddad's house
55:44we assume is because he has got strong affiliations with one side or the other
55:49that may have been the case but it's also about people getting caught up in the crossfire the night
55:55that this happened was uh 28th day of september 1922 so my granddad joe is is 12 at this point
56:04and almost certainly living in the house suddenly having gunfire hitting your house that must be
56:10beyond terrifying your granddad joe was a young boy during a period of great upheaval during the war of
56:15independence and then during a civil war yeah i mean that's going to shape your thoughts isn't it
56:21you're spot on it's a very tense time lee's grandfather lived in balanar for the rest of his
56:27childhood before moving back to southport where he married and had his own family
56:38one of the striking things is just how tough grandma joe's upbringing was
56:42without him ever really talking about it he's been left with his grandparents his mom's gone to canada
56:48his dad's not around the family haven't got much money the granddad has been arrested for alcohol
56:55making and selling and then the house gets shot at so i mean this is all up until the age
57:00of 12.
57:02it's made a lot more sense of my granddad joe's outlook on life there's no getting around he was a
57:08bit
57:08of a worrier and you could sort of see why
57:14i've been really interested finding out about things that have always been hovering on the edges
57:19of my of my life ancestors can be abstract people so once you start tapping into it just a little
57:27bit
57:27you do get more wrapped up in it and they become real people so you want to know more and
57:31more
57:34so
57:46so