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Swindlers - Season 1 - Episode 02: The Thomas Byrne
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00:0607, I think 08, and it was the time of the crash. Everything was gone.
00:16It transpired. It was the biggest, financially-wise, biggest fraud case in the country.
00:24We tried to keep it as level-headed as we could.
00:27We knew we were in something big. We knew it was high-profile.
00:34It went from being a fraud, deception, into actual theft.
00:40And it was only then, I think, we realised the amount of money that was involved.
00:50The case was referred by the High Courts into the Bureau,
00:53and we said, yeah, there's a lot in this.
00:56And the discussion was, God, it's going to be huge, it's going to be huge.
00:59And then we come up to the thing is, well, how do you eat an elephant?
01:03One bite at a time. So that's the way we took it.
01:05The Hall of Fame
01:07The Hall of Fame
01:09The Hall of Fame
01:16The Hall of Fame
01:46I remember being struck by the huge media presence at the trial.
02:03It was November and December of 2013.
02:09The Thomas Byrne affair resulted in millions of lost euro and many victims.
02:14The scale of his wrongdoing was colossal.
02:16His dishonesty basically cost the family a quarter of a million euros.
02:19An incredible amount of work had been done by Angarda Shekhana in preparation for the Thomas Byrne trial.
02:27No trial comes without its risks and this was high stakes.
02:31This was Ireland's biggest ever fraud trial.
02:36Six banks, 12 Dublin properties, almost 52 million euro and one solicitor.
02:42What was on trial was the banking system itself.
02:49It was the regulation of the legal profession.
02:52When Byrne came to trial, he was depicted as one of the villains of the Celtic Tiger era.
03:00Thomas Byrne denies all the charges.
03:02The trial is expected to last up to eight weeks.
03:05He became kind of a lightning rod for the public's anger over their sense that nobody had been held accountable.
03:12Often when there has been a major crisis of any kind, there is a clamour for accountability, there's a clamour
03:19for justice and we hone in on the poster boys or girls of that crisis.
03:24I think Thomas Byrne probably had to unduly bear being the public face of the rogue solicitor scandals.
03:30In part because Michael Lynn, who has since been jailed for similar activities, had left Ireland.
03:36He had fled, but Thomas Byrne was here and he was the one who was standing.
03:56This is a guy like who started out as a sole practitioner working from an extension that was built onto
04:02the side of his family home on the Green Hills Road in Walkenstown.
04:08He wasn't part of the traditional D4 set that goes into law, but he was always aspiring to be part
04:15of that world.
04:17He put himself through college by working in a garage at night.
04:21Very little that stands out about him, you know, he was just an ordinary guy.
04:24Went to law school, qualified as a solicitor.
04:27We were both studying law at the same time actually in UCD, he was a year behind me.
04:32He used to come to occasional lectures wearing a dickie bow.
04:38He was charismatic, he was a very mannerly guy.
04:44He had a lot of charisma about him, you know, he was a bit flamboyant, he dressed very well.
04:49Always a fun guy to talk to, you'd enjoy meeting him, you know.
04:53Yeah, he got a lot of...
04:54He did a good way about him, people liked him, you know.
04:58You could trust him.
05:03He came from the area originally.
05:05He went to school around here and people knew of the family and they would have known him.
05:10And it was nice to see him coming back and setting up a business here in the area.
05:18There was a family home and he had this garage, it was converted.
05:22He even asked us to do it up for him.
05:24And that's when we first met him.
05:28So you'd go in and you'd meet his receptionist, Joan.
05:31And then if you needed to speak directly with Thomas, he'd either bring out the piece of paper to the
05:35reception area or he'd bring you into the back room.
05:39Well, you'd walk through his living area, his kitchen and his kids' stuff and things like that, you know.
05:46His initial clients were all people that he'd grown up with.
05:52Drafting wills, he was doing conveyancing for old ladies in his neighbourhood who were selling houses.
05:57He would get a slice of the fee.
06:00It was enough to keep him in relative comfort.
06:04He had a nice size practice, you know, in Walkenstown, which you would expect would have relatively small turnover.
06:14His business was getting bigger.
06:16He needed bigger premises, bigger offices, but he wanted to stay in the area.
06:19And just down the road here, there was a retail unit and he bought two units in that.
06:25And he still was the main solicitor in there himself.
06:31He had these two buildings here.
06:33He had upstairs and downstairs.
06:36Most people would be either stressed out or nervous in the solicitor's office because this is serious stuff.
06:42You know, have a cup of coffee, sit down, tell me, what did you do last week?
06:45Where are you going this week?
06:46And we'd have a bit of a chit-chat and the whole line.
06:48He'd put you at ease.
06:49Oh, by the way, I think you need to sign this.
06:51And then the business was done in five minutes.
06:56He was such a lovely guy.
06:59The girls even used to call us up and invite us out for office parties.
07:04Oh, we're having a surprise party for Thomas.
07:06Come on, you must come down.
07:07You're his favourite clients, all this type of thing, you know.
07:11Little did we know.
07:12He started his business in 1995, which was literally the start point of the Celtic Tiger.
07:24The Celtic Tiger was a time of greater excess.
07:28We got money for the first time ever.
07:30The economy was growing.
07:32Foreign direct investment was doing fine.
07:34There was jobs that were being created.
07:36It was fairly sustainable.
07:38It made entrepreneurship open to everyone.
07:42Spend, spend, spend.
07:45We bought apartment blocks out in Bulgaria without even knowing what the monthly rent might be.
07:52It was insanely easy to get money.
07:55Lots of ordinary people who had no relationship whatsoever to property development suddenly became property developers.
08:03Public servants, teachers, nurses, guards, all buying and flipping properties to make really quick profits.
08:13And into that context, we find solicitors like Thomas Byrne, who were involved in that in terms of the conveyancing
08:22in their capacity as lawyers, as solicitors.
08:29Many people can probably pinpoint when things were getting a little bit too hot, one of them is actually sitting
08:34in the back of a taxi and your taxi driver is telling you about property deals.
08:39Ah, yeah, look, I just bought my third buy-to-let flat in Magaluf.
08:43It's grand, the rental cover this, and I'm going to use that.
08:45I'm going to gear up again, and then I'll probably buy a fourth.
08:49It was a frenzy.
08:51Everybody was making money out of the property boom, and that was right across the entire professional landscape.
08:56And it was all based on one simple principle, that house prices were always going to keep rising.
09:11I had an excess of 100,000 euros from the sale of my taxi plate.
09:16So I said, right, put that down as a deposit.
09:19We want to buy not one house, we want to buy four.
09:22The more we got into it, the banks got more confidence in it, they were throwing money at us then,
09:25you know, at that stage there was no bother.
09:27You could borrow what you wanted.
09:28We've just seen it as a means to an end for us, you know, we can have a nice lifestyle
09:32at the end of this, we can retire by the time we're 50.
09:36Thomas Bourne acted for us from the start.
09:39We were introduced to him by the TSB bank.
09:41We had a good relationship with him, you know, he looked after us in regards to fees.
09:47When houses started to get out of our price range, we'd start buying houses with sites on the side.
09:52And we'd buy a house, and we'd build a house.
09:56We ended up then with 14 houses.
10:00We would go down to his office, sign the contracts, sign the transfer of deed, and we assumed that's it.
10:08For five years, people were making fortunes, and Bourne happened to be in the right place at the right time.
10:20Back before the 1980s, if you were buying or selling a property, it was a very, very cumbersome process.
10:26You cannot take down a loan until everything is in place.
10:29So the government brought in a new system, and what it allowed a solicitor to do, in his capacity as
10:34an officer of the court, a trusted person,
10:37was that they could give the assurances to the banks that everything had been looked after, the deeds were in
10:42order, all of the documents were in order.
10:44And on that basis, money could be released much, much more quickly.
10:50What it allowed was for multiple loans to be drawn down on an individual property.
10:56A property that cost 4 million euro, you could draw down loans for 20, 25 million euro, and nobody was
11:03checking the bottom line.
11:05But it was a system explicitly based on trust.
11:11If you take who we all looked up to in the old days, the priests, the local solicitor, the local
11:19guard, the local bank manager, they were gods.
11:26When ordinary members of society were becoming property developers, buying and selling, flipping properties, making profit,
11:33he sees that there's a lack of regulation of both the lawyers and of the banks.
11:39What Byrne did was very quickly come to the realization that, oh, I can make a lot of money by
11:46being a property developer.
11:49He looked at what we were doing, and he thought it was quite impressive.
11:54I said, oh, well, I'd have a few Bob's spare, and now he says.
12:03This is the first house Thomas Warren bought from us.
12:05He came up, had a look at it, thought it was great.
12:09Told him about the possible investment.
12:11We'd run it for him, manage it for him, do all of that.
12:13He said, yeah, no problem.
12:14And within a few weeks, the house was his.
12:18And he said, have you any more?
12:20I was quite surprised.
12:22I said, how is this coming so easy for you?
12:24He says, I said, well, I have an excess of money I need to get rid of, he says, before
12:29the taxman gets it.
12:31That's what he told us.
12:36I think people hadn't realized the extent to which a small minority of solicitors had crossed that Rubicron and crossed
12:42the line between being a solicitor and had actually moved into property development and used their experience in one area
12:50to manipulate another.
12:54Byrne was introduced to a property developer called John Kelly, and John Kelly asked him to buy a property in
13:04Rhett Farman and flip it.
13:06They did that, and they made a substantial profit on that one deal.
13:10Kelly's partner then asked Byrne to sell three other properties for him.
13:15They made a million euros on those three properties.
13:20Suddenly, Byrne is catapulted to an entirely different level.
13:25By 2000, within the space of five years, he's got 14 staff.
13:29He's paying himself half a million a year.
13:32And he himself has more than 10 properties to his name.
13:41His lawyers told two high court judges that he intended to cooperate with the investigations into his finances in any
13:47way possible.
13:50He gave evidence in court of how easy it was to go into a bank, present forged documents, and for
13:59them to just take his word as a solicitor that these documents were valid, that they were legitimately obtained, and
14:07that they weren't being used as security with any other financial institution.
14:12But as the case went on, and it became clear that he was determined to blame everybody else for what
14:20he had done.
14:22He blames this man, John Kelly, a property developer who used him to take out loans.
14:27He said the money from almost every loan he took out went to John Kelly.
14:31Often, he didn't know what it was used for.
14:35Byrne's argument was, I'm a fall guy here.
14:38The real crooks are the banks.
14:41Who were recklessly lending.
14:43He tried to pin the blame on John Kelly.
14:46And he presented Kelly as being this poster child for all of the excess that went on during the Celtic
14:51Tiger era.
14:54Kelly had spent 100 grand on girls allowed to play at his daughter's 21st birthday party.
15:03Kelly had a fleet of Aston Martins.
15:06He had a ÂŁ5 million mansion in Wicklow with floodlit tennis courts, you know, great big fountain and pond.
15:13So he was the perfect sort of bad guy that Byrne had presented to the jury.
15:20John Kelly maintained the allegations levelled against him by Thomas Byrne were scurrilous and false.
15:29Kelly pointed out that Byrne was unable to produce any witness or corroborating evidence supporting his claims.
15:40John Kelly was a property developer who has never faced any criminal charges.
15:57There was a great story of one of the big property developers going off to lunch in, I think it
16:02was Peplo's restaurant on Stephen's Green.
16:05And he walked out of the lunch with one of the big banks and he had a term sheet for
16:10a ÂŁ300 million loan and it was written on the back of a napkin.
16:14That pretty much says everything to me about just quite how easy it was to get money out of banks
16:20back then.
16:24People like Thomas Byrne were borrowing money, occasionally legitimately, in a very free, fast-rolling credit system where standards were
16:35slipping commissions were very, very high.
16:37The island economy is growing faster than the average of the EU.
16:42Everyone wanted to be richer. Everyone wanted success.
16:46I remember you'd see it on the Dart and there was an ad on the Dart that ran for years
16:50and it was the front page of the Evening Herald and the headline of the front page was, you've never
16:55had it so good.
16:57I remember one property developer describing that atmosphere to me at the time and he said, the world had a
17:04party, we had a rave.
17:10Byrne wasn't going to sort of the two big traditional Irish banks.
17:15He was going to Irish Nationwide, Anglo-Irish Bank, getting to know the senior executives in these banks.
17:22Well, as regards my own society where money is almost readily available.
17:27Byrne was hoovering up all these new clients and then he was seeing that, okay, the banks aren't really watching
17:33what I'm doing.
17:34They're taking my word because I'm a solicitor.
17:37And he thought, okay, I can exploit this. I can become a multimillionaire.
17:45He was making a lot of money and he was suddenly at an entirely different level in society than possibly
17:51he'd ever dreamed.
17:59He was getting a bit too big, too quick.
18:05He came up one of the days to see the house that we were selling them and I showed him
18:09the house and he arrived in one of these bounties.
18:12And I said, oh, well, change the car again.
18:14He says, oh, yeah, yeah. He said, I have another sideline going.
18:17He says, I fly in people. He says, pick them up the airport, the bounties.
18:20I'll bring them down to a hotel.
18:22And he says, I do these power breakfast speaks.
18:25I said, okay, right, that's great, yeah.
18:27And that goes on from seven to nine and he leaves that and goes into the solicitor's office and does
18:32his soliciting thing.
18:34So, I don't know, that was very weird.
18:38He has his own chauffeur business where he has a fleet of Land Rovers and Aston Martins.
18:47He claims that he owns 16 different properties across Europe.
18:52He also claimed to be a consultant for a major fashion house in Paris.
19:03He faces 51 charges of theft, fraud, deception and forgery involving 12 properties around Dublin.
19:11Instinctively, I liked him.
19:13I think the media as a whole, we were all drawn to this story because, you know, a lawyer who's
19:19also a crook is a great story in its own right.
19:22But in the context of the Celtic Tiger and Byrne suddenly becoming the first guy to face the consequences, this
19:31elevated the story to a whole other level.
19:35Prosecuting counsel Remy Farrell said there was an almost comic tragedy to the financial statements he was submitting to banks
19:41as his activity increased.
19:44What is really interesting about the attitude of the banks, when Thomas Byrne and Michael Lynn, when those stories first
19:52broke, what we really, really saw in these cases and in these trials was the conduct of the banks themselves.
19:58The media were almost cheering him on in a sense, wanting him to tell us everything you know about the
20:05banks, you know, to lift the rock up and show us all the worms scurrying underneath.
20:09What we were there to see and what the public wanted to see, I think, was banks being held up
20:15to the light.
20:26Around early October 2007, there was a lot of rumours going around Dublin media circles about a solicitor who had
20:35been found forging documents.
20:37Most people in the media thought that was Michael Lynn.
20:41The court heard Mr. Lynn and his companies owned 105 properties across several countries.
20:47And it was days after Michael Lynn was exposed that we had the Thomas Byrne case, so there was an
20:52absolute frenzy.
20:55I was coming back on a train from Belfast and my phone didn't stop with people ringing saying, is it
21:01A, is it B, is it C?
21:03I was saying, no, no, it's not, no, it's not.
21:06And that probably was the moment in which I realised that the extent of the legal undertakings controversy was way,
21:12way bigger.
21:15By October 2007, the whole house of cards comes falling down.
21:22A solicitor in Thomas Byrne's practice discovers that her signature has been forged on deeds that were used to draw
21:31down a multi-billion euro loan from the bank.
21:37She notified the law society, the law society notified the guards, Byrne was arrested.
21:47There was one allegation made that he had forged the signature of one of the solicitors who worked in his
21:53office.
21:54So when we saw that, we said, you know, this is not the first time we did it.
21:58When his case came in, I walked into the boss and I said, come here, this is, is going to
22:05be a big one, you know.
22:11But when I went to collect the rent from the tenants, they'd all received letters.
22:16We got a social welfare check each month, paid directly into the bank.
22:20And then the tenants would have to pay up the balance in cash.
22:24So I came up to pick up the cash and the tenant handed me this letter from Anglo-Irish Bank
22:30saying that they now own the house and to pay them, not pay me.
22:35I'm not the legal registered owner of the house anymore.
22:40So I rang the accountant, I rang the bank and they said, yes, we know, we need to see you
22:46immediately.
22:47And I was literally told, get yourself a better solicitor immediately.
22:53Because this thing is going to get nasty.
22:57And then they sent us this.
22:58This is the list of houses, one, two, three, four, five, six, that they have taken control of.
23:04Turns out then, six o'clock news that evening, the whole thing unfolded.
23:08I've seen it on the news.
23:10This is Thomas Byrne, the 41-year-old solicitor, originally from Walkenstown,
23:15who's at the centre of the latest investigation by the Law Society.
23:18The Society closed his office on the Walkenstown Road yesterday
23:22amid concerns that he owes millions of euro to banks
23:25and has taken out multiple mortgages on properties.
23:42There were a number of foreshocks or warnings about Thomas Byrne and his practice.
23:49The first went back as far as 1996, when a Dublin accountancy firm registered a debt,
23:54quite a small debt, just over ÂŁ1,000 at the time.
23:57A year later, the collector general of the state registered a debt against him,
24:02a much larger debt.
24:03But again, another little bit of a red flag or a warning about him.
24:07Fast forward to 2002, and the Law Society investigate Thomas Byrne on foot of a complaint.
24:13As a result of that, he is not allowed to be the sole signatory on the account.
24:19Fast forward another couple of years, to 2005,
24:22and they discover a much bigger hole in the client account to the tune of ÂŁ1.7 million.
24:27So he appears before the Solicitor's Disciplinary Tribunal
24:31and he receives a €15,000 euro fine.
24:35But he's allowed to continue to practice.
24:37Within a year, he appears before the courts,
24:39accused of stealing almost ÂŁ60 million from banks and clients.
24:54When you're involved in an investigation, like a fraud investigation,
24:57you have to find, you know, OK, it may seem wrong.
25:00Is it wrong? Can we prove that it's wrong?
25:05Started as two folders of paper.
25:08It ended up being 50 or 60 boxes of Solicitor's Files.
25:13There's thousands of documents in it.
25:18It was alleged at the time he had forged signatures on the title deeds,
25:23and he had transferred the ownership of the property to himself.
25:27So then we made arrangements to interview him.
25:33That's supposed to be my signature. That's supposed to be yours.
25:36Yeah, that's right.
25:36Clearly, that's nothing like what I'd say.
25:39No, no, no.
25:39This is transferring the deeds from our name into his name.
25:44He never even included the O or the R.
25:47I mean, I don't spell my name.
25:48Cons.
25:50I've been conned, yeah, that's for sure.
25:53Mainly, we were called to verify signatures
25:56because a lot of our signatures were forged.
26:00And I was asked about my signature.
26:03Do I write it any different?
26:04And I said, yeah, I do, yeah.
26:06I said, I'll be signing my signature Matthew P. Connors.
26:10And on the documents they were put in front of me,
26:12it was only Matthew Connors,
26:14and completely different.
26:15Completely different.
26:17And I said, I don't care what it says,
26:19it's not my signature.
26:20The signatures were chalk and shades, like.
26:22Yeah.
26:24A man on a galloping horse would have noticed
26:25the difference between that.
26:30I remember in about 2003, 2004,
26:35writing a piece about Anglo-Irish Bank
26:38and raising questions about it,
26:40saying, what actually happens if property prices fall?
26:43And I remember Sean Fitzpatrick went absolutely nuts.
26:47He was the chief executive of the bank at that stage.
26:50And I got up at both barrels
26:52for, you know, calling into doubt the economic miracle.
26:57Ireland's property crash continues.
27:00There's no doubt that the bursting of the property bubble
27:02is being keenly felled.
27:03House prices are still falling sharply.
27:05I think the banks were in a state of absolute shock.
27:08I remember meeting bankers at the time,
27:11and they really couldn't believe that this was going on.
27:14These were maybe the people who'd written the loans.
27:18But when property prices fall 20%, 30%, 40%, 50%, 60%, 70%,
27:24even more in some cases, you know, you're screwed.
27:27Just after 8pm this evening came the dramatic development
27:31that the Irish government is going to nationalise Anglo-Irish Bank.
27:34It took nearly $40 billion of taxpayers' money
27:38to rescue the bank and the entire sector.
27:41It's Charlie Bird from RTE.
27:43Why are you ducking down?
27:45There are taxpayers at home in Ireland who would like some answers.
27:49Leave now.
27:51OK.
27:57Well, when we met Thomas Forrest in the Fraud Bureau,
28:00and we had all the files out, we got them to wear gloves.
28:03So we had a pair of white gloves.
28:05One of the guys said to me,
28:07God, he said, it's like a snooker table.
28:10That was the first time he came in,
28:12where we showed him the files.
28:14We showed him documentation,
28:16and you'd know by the look on his face,
28:18he knew he did something wrong.
28:22My colleague said, did you look upset?
28:24He said, I am, yeah.
28:26He said, you look like he could do with a hug.
28:30I could, he says.
28:31And my colleague said, do you want a hug?
28:33He got up and he walked over to him and gave him a hug.
28:37When you bring somebody in to question them,
28:40they're at their lows, Deb.
28:42There's no point kicking them.
28:43There's no point knocking them down.
28:45He said, your job is to build them back up again.
28:47Tell them there is hope.
28:49OK, you did something wrong.
28:50It's not the end of the world.
28:51Let's deal with it.
28:53Move on.
28:54And I took the same approach with Thomas,
28:56and I think it worked great,
28:57because we had a good rapport.
29:00When it came to questioning,
29:01he exercised his constitutional right.
29:04He started off,
29:05on the advice of my solicitor,
29:07I have no comment to make.
29:09After we got down to about a page of questions,
29:12I said, I'm not putting words in,
29:14turn him out.
29:14Could you just say no comment?
29:16It might speed it up for you and for us.
29:18So, after the first page or so,
29:21he just made no comments.
29:25He was interviewed voluntarily,
29:28I think about 15, 16 times,
29:30and it turned out he had said no comment.
29:33I think it was 3,700,
29:34and not times.
29:40In general,
29:42were people cooperative with the investigation?
29:44Yeah.
29:45Thanks?
29:46No.
29:47Because at the time,
29:48and we talk about legislation,
29:50there was legislation there for theft forgery,
29:53all the offences that we're looking at,
29:55but there's no obligation
29:57on people to make complaints.
29:59There were people who knew
30:01and must have known
30:04about the fraudulent activities
30:06of individuals
30:08who did not report those crimes at that time.
30:15When we started our initial investigation,
30:17we were looking at our forgeries,
30:19deceptions,
30:20but we couldn't get the financial end of it,
30:22the theft,
30:23because we had no reports coming in
30:25from financial institutions.
30:26Did you ask for them?
30:28We spoke to them.
30:29We didn't ask them.
30:30We said,
30:31have any crimes to report?
30:32Have any issues to report?
30:34No.
30:36The new offence
30:37of withholding information
30:38will be created.
30:39It will be available
30:41when enacted
30:42to the Garda Sikona
30:43in future investigations,
30:45and that applies
30:45to those being undertaken
30:47with regard to financial institutions.
30:50We knew the act was coming in.
30:52It was going to be signed in.
30:53So, again,
30:54that probably added two years
30:55onto the investigation.
31:03like a lot of people,
31:04he got greedy.
31:05I mean,
31:06Brian Lennon famously said
31:07that we all party,
31:08but Thomas Byrne
31:09definitely partied.
31:13his life was veering
31:15out of control.
31:16By 2000,
31:18he was,
31:19if not a full-blown alcoholic,
31:22he was definitely
31:22in the throes of alcoholism.
31:24He was abusing,
31:26in his own words,
31:27tablets.
31:28He was constantly chasing,
31:30chasing that next high.
31:33And that pressure
31:34all kind of came to a head
31:35in his personal life.
31:38Byrne left his wife
31:40and three children,
31:42and he entered into
31:44a relationship
31:45with a younger man.
31:50He had gone through a change.
31:52He was married,
31:53had children,
31:54then he came out
31:54as being gay.
31:56There were knock-on effects
31:57in his own life,
31:59in his personal life,
31:59in his family life
32:00in relation to that.
32:01And I think that did play on him.
32:02And we did speak about it.
32:04One to one.
32:05And you get an understanding
32:06of how he was feeling
32:08and different things
32:09that were going on
32:10in his life.
32:13He himself admitted
32:14during the court case
32:15that the consequence
32:16of all that stress
32:17and all that guilt,
32:19he lost his family.
32:21Eventually,
32:21he ended up sleeping
32:22in his car
32:23for four months.
32:30The government hopes
32:31to have this legislation
32:32passed into law
32:33before the Oireachtas summer
32:34recess at the end of July.
32:37Lucky enough,
32:38when Section 19 of that act
32:40passed in August 2011,
32:44made it an offence
32:45for somebody
32:45not to report a crime.
32:47So we spoke to senior council
32:50and we said,
32:50can we go back to the banks?
32:52And the agreed term
32:53we would use is,
32:55are you aware
32:56of the new legislation?
32:57A lot of the banks
32:59then at that stage
33:00started to cooperate.
33:01We served, I think,
33:02in the region of
33:0325 to 30 court orders
33:05on different banks
33:06all through the investigation.
33:07The court continued
33:09the freezing orders
33:10and also ordered
33:11that National Irish Bank
33:12hand over details
33:13of all accounts
33:14held by them
33:15for or on behalf
33:16of Mr Byrne
33:17since September the 7th
33:19when he got
33:20the 9 million euro loan.
33:23We made a big chart
33:24and you could see
33:25the properties
33:25and it was like
33:26one of these things
33:27you see,
33:27you photograph the galaxy.
33:28You know,
33:29there was lines going
33:30shooting stars
33:30going everywhere.
33:31The picture paints
33:32a thousand words
33:33and for us
33:33that was the thing
33:34we'd put up
33:35on the wall
33:35and we'd say,
33:37how do you get away
33:38with this?
33:40And he knew
33:40what he was facing.
33:42He knew the game was up.
33:43He knew his goose
33:45was cooked.
33:45Physically broken.
33:46You could see,
33:47you know,
33:47just emotionally
33:48you could see
33:49there was nothing
33:50behind his eyes.
33:51No, he was just
33:53he was a shadow of the man
33:54that he was
33:54at his peak.
33:57Yes, he got the money.
34:00The documents
34:01were forged.
34:02Now we had
34:03another end of it.
34:05This is the first step.
34:06Now we're going
34:06to the next level.
34:07What did he do
34:08with all these documents
34:09he forged?
34:10Who did he deceive?
34:11How did he deceive them?
34:16If you look at what he did
34:17Byrne would take
34:19those deeds
34:21go to a bank.
34:23He dealt with
34:23six different banks.
34:24The banks
34:25on little more
34:26than the say-so
34:27of Mr Byrne
34:28were happy to extend
34:29him large sums
34:30of money.
34:31In one instance
34:32he borrowed
34:32four and a half
34:33million euros
34:34on the basis
34:35of three properties
34:36which weren't
34:37remotely
34:37collectively
34:38worth four and a half
34:39million
34:40but they were
34:40offered as security
34:41even though
34:42he didn't own them.
34:44And in addition
34:45to the forgery
34:47he was also
34:48using those
34:49same properties
34:51by going down
34:52the road
34:53to a different bank
34:54and saying
34:55I have these
34:56three properties
34:57I want to borrow
34:57another four and a half
34:58million.
34:59So what Byrne
35:01was doing
35:01was illegally
35:03exploiting
35:04a lack of
35:05regulation
35:06within the
35:06banking industry.
35:11he retained
35:12the deeds
35:12of most
35:12of our houses
35:13which should
35:14have been
35:14in the banks
35:15vaults
35:16not in his office
35:17which gave him
35:18every opportunity
35:18to do what he
35:19wanted with them
35:20you know
35:21remortgaging
35:21and taking out
35:23large sums
35:23of money
35:24on our properties
35:24why would he do
35:25this?
35:26He didn't need
35:26to do that.
35:27The guy wasn't
35:28short on money
35:28he had a good
35:29lifestyle
35:30he had a lovely
35:30family
35:31just shell-shocked
35:32with the whole
35:32thing
35:32it took a while
35:33to make any
35:35sense of it
35:35you know
35:35and we were
35:37stressed out
35:38to be the
35:38band at the
35:38time.
35:42Well as far
35:43as we know
35:43these were
35:44some of the
35:45first houses
35:45that Thomas
35:46Bourne actually
35:47transferred the
35:48deeds on.
35:50He had the
35:51deeds
35:52so he could
35:53go to any
35:53bank
35:53present them
35:54deeds
35:54and get a
35:55mortgage
35:56but he was
35:57clever enough
35:57to do it
35:58not once
35:58not twice
35:59not three
35:59not four
36:00he was doing
36:00it up to
36:01six different
36:01banks
36:01with up to
36:03from us
36:04six different
36:05sets of
36:05deeds.
36:10OK we're
36:11now in
36:11Lionkillen
36:12Green
36:13this was
36:14one of
36:14the last
36:15houses we
36:15bought
36:16which
36:16Thomas
36:17Bourne
36:18also took
36:19from us
36:19so I have
36:20no idea
36:21what he
36:21was doing
36:22it's just
36:23he seemed
36:23to be a
36:24completely
36:24different
36:24person
36:25altogether
36:25and
36:25the
36:26Thomas
36:26Bourne
36:26we knew
36:27when we
36:27met him
36:27first
36:28level-headed
36:29businessman
36:34been
36:34honest
36:35with you
36:35if I had
36:35another
36:35option
36:36I
36:36wouldn't
36:36be
36:36in
36:36this
36:36area
36:38because I
36:39have to
36:39drive by
36:40and out
36:40of the
36:40houses
36:41and I
36:42see what's
36:42happened
36:42to them
36:42since
36:44we had
36:44them
36:49what's it
36:49like when
36:50you're
36:50here
36:50now
36:50I
36:50don't
36:50like to
36:51be
36:51here
36:51I
36:52don't
36:52like it
36:52at all
36:52I
36:53want to
36:53go
36:54it's
36:54depressing
37:00the court
37:01was told
37:02this is
37:02one of
37:03the biggest
37:03white-collar
37:04criminal
37:04trials
37:05to come
37:05before
37:05the
37:05circuit
37:06court
37:06this
37:06year
37:08it
37:09was
37:09only
37:09when
37:09Bourne
37:10himself
37:10got
37:11into
37:11the
37:11witness
37:11box
37:12and
37:12we
37:12had
37:12three
37:12days
37:12of
37:13him
37:13giving
37:14evidence
37:14on his
37:15own
37:15behalf
37:15and
37:16being
37:16cross
37:16examined
37:16that
37:17the
37:17real
37:18drama
37:18of
37:19the
37:19case
37:19came
37:20to
37:20the
37:20fore
37:23he's
37:23in a
37:23very
37:24unusual
37:24position
37:25because
37:25a
37:26he's
37:26a
37:26lawyer
37:26but
37:28he's
37:28the
37:28defendant
37:28and
37:29b
37:29it's
37:30very
37:31unusual
37:31for
37:31defendants
37:32to
37:32take
37:32the
37:32stand
37:33and
37:33give
37:33evidence
37:34in
37:34their
37:34own
37:34defense
37:34but
37:35Bourne
37:35decided
37:36to
37:36do
37:36that
37:37what
37:38surprised
37:38me
37:38probably
37:39most
37:39during
37:40the
37:40whole
37:40trial
37:40was
37:40the
37:41fact
37:41that
37:41Thomas
37:41actually
37:41took
37:41the
37:42stand
37:43and
37:44we
37:44were
37:44all
37:44wondering
37:45what
37:45he
37:45going
37:45to
37:45say
37:45will
37:46he
37:46put
37:46his
37:46hands
37:46up
37:46and
37:46admit
37:47everything
37:47will
37:47he
37:47break
37:48down
37:48will
37:48he
37:48do
37:48this
37:49will
37:49he
37:49do
37:49that
37:50he
37:51was
37:51a
37:51weak
37:51man
37:52I
37:53never
37:53saw
37:54a
37:54defendant
37:55cry
37:56so much
37:57in the
37:57witness
37:57box
37:58he spent
37:58three
37:59days
37:59crying
38:01Thomas
38:02Byrne
38:02today broke
38:03down as he
38:04tried to
38:04explain his
38:05involvement
38:05in the
38:06alleged sale
38:06of his
38:07parents
38:07home
38:07he
38:08allowed
38:09Mr.
38:09Kelly
38:09to
38:09use
38:10his
38:10parents
38:10home
38:10as
38:11short
38:11term
38:11security
38:12to
38:12raise
38:13money
38:13he
38:14didn't
38:15express
38:17or show
38:18any
38:18willingness
38:18to accept
38:19the
38:19consequences
38:20of his
38:20actions
38:21he tried
38:21to blame
38:22everybody
38:22not just
38:23Kelly
38:23not just
38:24the
38:24banks
38:25but he
38:26tried to
38:26blame
38:26the victims
38:27themselves
38:28and these
38:29weren't
38:29just
38:30random
38:31clients
38:31who walked
38:32into his
38:32offices
38:33these were
38:33people
38:33in many
38:34cases
38:35that he
38:35had
38:35grown
38:35up
38:35with
38:39these
38:39were
38:40elderly
38:41people
38:41from his
38:41local
38:42community
38:42that he
38:43would have
38:43known
38:43for 30
38:44years
38:46in one
38:46very sad
38:47case
38:48he actually
38:48forged a
38:49signature
38:49of his
38:50old music
38:50teacher
38:51he took
38:51possession
38:52of her
38:52house
38:54there was
38:55one woman
38:55called
38:56Vera
38:56McGrain
38:57and her
38:58mother
38:59Kathleen
38:59was 91
39:00years old
39:01she was
39:02seriously
39:03ill
39:04so seriously
39:04ill
39:05that she
39:05was confined
39:05to bed
39:06and she
39:06was living
39:07with Vera
39:07within a
39:09week of
39:09her dying
39:10Byrne had
39:11transferred
39:11Kathleen's
39:13property
39:13into his
39:14own name
39:14we've known
39:16Thomas Byrne
39:17for 30
39:18years
39:18he went
39:19to college
39:20with my
39:20nephew
39:22the house
39:23was up for
39:23sale
39:24when my
39:24mother was
39:25alive
39:25she was
39:2690 years
39:27of age
39:27and she
39:29thought
39:29that she'd
39:30see the
39:31house
39:31sold
39:31and distribute
39:33the proceeds
39:34amongst the
39:35family
39:35herself
39:35a few
39:37months after
39:37her mother
39:38had died
39:39Vera
39:39received an
39:41offer
39:41for the
39:42house
39:42I think
39:43it was
39:43for about
39:44380,000
39:45euros
39:45Byrne tried
39:46to convince
39:47her that
39:47he could
39:48get a
39:48higher price
39:49but in
39:50actual fact
39:50Byrne
39:51had forged
39:52Vera's
39:54signature
39:54and Kathleen's
39:56signature
39:56to transfer
39:57the property
39:57into his
39:58own name
39:58the banks
40:00now owned
40:01Vera's
40:02mother's
40:02property
40:05Brothers
40:06Michael
40:06and Brendan
40:07Dunn
40:07discovered
40:08a deed
40:08of transfer
40:09purporting
40:09to show
40:10the sale
40:10of the
40:10family
40:11home
40:11to him
40:11Another
40:12client
40:12Dermot
40:12Nocton
40:13discovered
40:13mortgages
40:14had been
40:14taken out
40:15on two
40:15of his
40:16Dublin
40:16properties
40:17Mrs Costigan
40:17said she
40:18knew him
40:18growing up
40:19he was
40:19one of
40:19her
40:19mother's
40:20piano
40:20students
40:20to her
40:21horror
40:21she
40:22discovered
40:22a deed
40:23of transfer
40:23It said
40:24she had
40:25sold the
40:25house
40:25to Thomas
40:26Byrne
40:26for
40:26410,000
40:28euro
40:28she said
40:29she never
40:29saw the
40:29document
40:30before
40:30never
40:31signed it
40:31and never
40:32sold the
40:32house
40:33or received
40:33the money
40:36Vera
40:37McGrane
40:37and her
40:37sister
40:38Dolores
40:38Mr Byrne
40:39claimed
40:40their
40:40elderly
40:40mother
40:40signed
40:41over
40:41the
40:41family
40:42home
40:42at
40:42at
40:42Bunting
40:43Road
40:43in
40:43Walkenstown
40:44to
40:44him
40:44a month
40:45before
40:45she
40:45died
40:46Harry
40:46Connors
40:46along
40:47with his
40:47brother
40:47Matthew
40:48how much
40:48do you reckon
40:49you've lost
40:49it was Byrne
40:58who
40:59totally betrayed
41:00the trust
41:01of
41:02childhood
41:03friends
41:05elderly
41:05women
41:06his old
41:07piano teacher
41:08school
41:09friends
41:12to the
41:12point
41:13where
41:13when these
41:14people
41:14find out
41:15about
41:15what Byrne
41:16had done
41:16to them
41:16they were
41:18left
41:19at a
41:19complete
41:20loss
41:21not only
41:22did he
41:22deny
41:22the
41:23forgeries
41:23he claimed
41:24that they
41:24were in
41:25on the
41:25act
41:25that
41:26anything
41:26he did
41:26was part
41:27of some
41:27grand
41:28conspiracy
41:29by these
41:30elderly
41:30women
41:31to
41:32defraud
41:33the
41:33banking
41:33institutions
41:34of
41:34Ireland
41:36he
41:36literally
41:36didn't
41:37have
41:37a
41:37defence
41:39Byrne
41:39was
41:40responsible
41:41for all
41:41of his
41:42own
41:42crimes
41:43the
41:44separated
41:44father
41:44of three
41:45had denied
41:46all the
41:46charges
41:47of fraud
41:47theft
41:48and forgery
41:49involving
41:49just under
41:5052 million
41:51euro
41:5112 Dublin
41:52properties
41:53and six
41:53banks
41:58I was happy
41:59enough the way
41:59things were going
42:00in the court
42:00it was in the
42:01hands of the
42:02fraud squad
42:02and they were
42:03doing a good
42:03job
42:04it certainly
42:05didn't look as
42:06if it was
42:06going in his
42:06favour so
42:07I said
42:08leave it
42:08alone
42:10you are
42:10confident
42:11when you're
42:11putting everything
42:11together
42:12and then
42:12when the
42:12jury goes
42:13out
42:13then the
42:13fear
42:14steps in
42:15will we
42:16get it
42:16across the
42:16line
42:19it's them
42:19that makes
42:20the decision
42:20did they see
42:22things the
42:22same way
42:22that I
42:23saw them
42:23did they
42:24see things
42:24the same
42:25way
42:25that the
42:26prosecution
42:27side
42:27saw them
42:29you always
42:30have that
42:30little
42:31niggle
42:31thing
42:31at the
42:32back
42:32of your
42:32head
42:37Thomas
42:37Byrne
42:37was hoping
42:38to throw
42:39himself
42:39before the
42:40jury
42:40and get
42:41some
42:41sympathy
42:42on the
42:42basis
42:42that
42:42forget
42:43about
42:43what
42:43I
42:43did
42:43look
42:44at
42:44what
42:44all
42:44these
42:44bad
42:45guys
42:45did
42:47the
42:47jury
42:48were
42:48desperate
42:49to
42:49believe
42:49Byrne
42:50and to
42:51almost
42:51concoct
42:52this new
42:52defence
42:53of human
42:54duress
42:54which didn't
42:55exist
42:56the judge
42:57quickly told
42:57him
42:58no
42:58he can't
42:59do that
43:01but still
43:02they took
43:03another
43:04five days
43:05before they
43:05reached
43:05a verdict
43:08just after
43:09midday
43:10today
43:10the jury
43:10in Thomas
43:11Byrne's
43:11trial
43:12came back
43:12into court
43:13at that
43:13stage
43:14it had
43:14been
43:14deliberating
43:15for 17
43:16hours
43:16and 29
43:17minutes
43:17and was
43:18ready
43:18to deliver
43:19its
43:19verdict
43:23as the
43:23verdict
43:24came in
43:24I would
43:25say
43:25Thomas
43:26Byrne
43:26was the
43:27only
43:27person
43:27in the
43:28room
43:28who
43:29thought
43:29he
43:29might
43:30be
43:30innocent
43:33when
43:34they
43:34came in
43:34and they
43:34read out
43:35the first
43:35one
43:35guilty
43:38and once
43:39you had
43:39the first
43:39guilty
43:39I had a
43:41good feeling
43:41they were
43:42going to
43:42go the
43:42same
43:42way
43:45one
43:45by one
43:46the foreman
43:46of the
43:47jury
43:47was led
43:47through
43:4850
43:48charges
43:49facing
43:49the
43:49former
43:50solicitor
43:50and to
43:51each
43:51the foreman
43:52revealed
43:52they found
43:53the 47
43:53year old
43:54guilty
43:54by a
43:55unanimous
43:55verdict
43:59he was
44:00sentenced to
44:00nine years
44:01for theft
44:02and a
44:02consecutive
44:02seven years
44:03for forgery
44:04with the
44:05final four
44:05suspended
44:15and when
44:16the sentence
44:17was handed
44:17down
44:18it was
44:18for 16
44:19years
44:20and the
44:21last four
44:21were
44:22suspended
44:23but it
44:24meant
44:24Byrne
44:24was going
44:25away
44:25potentially
44:26for 12
44:26years
44:27in prison
44:29and
44:30he was
44:30the first
44:31guy
44:31to face
44:32any
44:32consequences
44:33for all
44:34of the
44:35greed
44:35and the
44:36criminality
44:36that went
44:37on during
44:37the Celtic
44:38Tiger era
44:38but still
44:39a 12
44:40year sentence
44:40was
44:42more than
44:43people often
44:44served for
44:44murder
44:45when the
44:45gavel went
44:46down
44:46he said
44:47well at least
44:47now I know
44:48where I am
44:50he had spent
44:51probably four
44:52years
44:53living this
44:54nightmare
44:55and I think
44:56in one sense
44:57he was glad
44:57to have it
44:58over with
44:58even when
44:58the guilty
44:59verdict
44:59came back
45:00because he
45:00knew where
45:01he was going
45:01to be for
45:02the next
45:02number of
45:03years
45:03and I
45:03know
45:03it sounds
45:04corny
45:05but I
45:06think he
45:06was accepting
45:07of the
45:07fact that
45:07he was
45:08going to
45:08go to
45:08prison
45:10the scale
45:11of his
45:11wrongdoing
45:11was colossal
45:12the amounts
45:13involved
45:13were staggering
45:14those were
45:15the words
45:15of judge
45:16Pat
45:16McCartan
45:17before he
45:17sent
45:18Thomas
45:18Byrne
45:18to jail
45:19for 12
45:19years
45:21I don't
45:22feel happy
45:23to see
45:24anyone
45:25being taken
45:26away from
45:27their family
45:27or being
45:28sent to
45:29prison
45:30but I
45:32think
45:32Thomas
45:34determined
45:34his own
45:35fate
45:35Terry
45:36Connors
45:36said the
45:37last few
45:37years
45:37have been
45:38stressful
45:38traumatic
45:39and
45:39financially
45:39damaging
45:40I was
45:40thinking
45:41maybe
45:41seven
45:42eight
45:42years
45:42but when
45:43I heard
45:4316 years
45:44with four
45:44suspended
45:45oh my god
45:46he's going to be an old man
45:47when he comes out
45:48I feel so sorry for his family
45:49I don't know
45:51what can you say
45:51it's tough all around
45:58it was a relief
45:59the biggest thing
46:00was the relief
46:00it's over
46:01it's finished
46:01quite surprised
46:02at the length
46:03of the
46:03term he got
46:05there's no real
46:06winners here
46:07you know
46:07I said
46:08we're getting
46:09nothing back so far
46:10he's going to jail
46:11his family's left at home
46:13devastated
46:13I'm sure
46:13that's the way
46:14I was thinking
46:14at the time
46:15I probably should be
46:16wanting to string
46:17your man up
46:17but
46:19it's not in me
46:19to do that
46:24one of the things
46:25we can't really
46:25quantify
46:26is
46:27the human cost
46:28and you have to remember
46:29that
46:29in many cases
46:31this wasn't
46:32to big
46:33institutional investors
46:34it wasn't the banks
46:35many times
46:36that the people
46:37who suffered
46:38were family
46:39and friends
46:39I think
46:41that is where
46:41the
46:42empathy
46:43or the sympathy
46:44for someone like
46:45Thomas Byrne
46:46quickly evaporates
46:49Thomas Byrne
46:50Thomas Byrne showed
46:50no emotion
46:51as the sentence
46:51was handed down
46:52before he left
46:53the court
46:54Judge McCartan
46:55wished him the best
46:56of luck
46:56he simply replied
46:57thank you
47:04that didn't
47:05end any of your
47:06battles though
47:06did it?
47:07well
47:08it only started
47:09a lot of them
47:09for Israeli
47:10you know
47:10as soon as the
47:10houses were back
47:11in our name
47:12Danske Bank
47:13stepped in then
47:14and they were
47:14pulling out of
47:15Ireland
47:16and they wanted
47:16big accounts
47:17to be cleared
47:19so they basically
47:20sent us a letter
47:21saying
47:21okay we're
47:23pulling your
47:23mortgage
47:24we want
47:25ÂŁ1.6 million
47:26back off
47:27you
47:27and if we
47:28hadn't a hope
47:28of raising funds
47:30anywhere
47:30no one would
47:30lend the money
47:31the banks
47:32were all in trouble
47:32the government
47:33was bailing out
47:34Anglo-Irish
47:34and every other
47:35bank in the
47:36States
47:36so it was
47:36impossible
47:37to get money
47:37and these guys
47:38were calling in
47:38a debt
47:38on all our
47:39properties
47:40so then
47:40they sent in
47:41the receivers
47:42and the receivers
47:43took every house
47:45we had
47:45so all our income
47:47was stopped
47:48and it was left
47:49for ÂŁ50
47:52did you dread
47:53the post coming
47:54oh
47:54every day
47:56I'd hide
47:57if it was in
47:57the postman
47:57coming
47:58more bad news
47:58I'd have a look
47:59at him
47:59I'd look out
48:00through the window
48:00and say
48:01what colour is
48:01the envelope
48:01if it's white
48:02or brown
48:03is it square
48:03is there a window
48:05in it
48:06no
48:06straight away
48:07here we go
48:07again
48:08who's seeing us
48:09now
48:11I still have to
48:11drive a taxi
48:12every day
48:12for a living
48:13I was hoping
48:15not to have
48:15to do that
48:17and we're okay
48:19yeah
48:25the judge
48:25paid tribute
48:26to Garthie
48:26from the
48:27National Bureau
48:27of Fraud
48:28Investigation
48:29for the
48:29professional way
48:30in which they
48:30had pulled
48:31together the
48:31evidence
48:32and presented
48:32it to the
48:33court and
48:33jury
48:36he never
48:37showed any
48:37true remorse
48:38to his clients
48:39he never
48:40apologised
48:41to his clients
48:42which I felt
48:42was mean
48:44spirited
48:46when I look
48:47back on this
48:47from a personal
48:48perspective
48:49my own performance
48:50and the way
48:50things worked out
48:51we asked him
48:52three and a half
48:53thousand questions
48:53and he never
48:54once said
48:55he was sorry
48:57and I think
48:58that's the one
48:59thing that
49:00most victims
49:01want to hear
49:02if he only
49:02said
49:03I'm sorry
49:03I'm sorry
49:03I'm sorry
49:04I'm sorry
49:05I'm Sorry
49:20I'm sorry
49:20ask me
49:22I'm sorry
49:33and I'm sorry
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