- 5 hours ago
Dragons Den - Season 23 - Episode 03
Category
📺
TVTranscript
00:01The doors to the den are open for business, a place where fortunes are made and futures are forged.
00:10But this time, the game has changed.
00:13A fresh wave of fierce investors are out to shake things up and steal the deals.
00:22Tonight.
00:23I'm Susie Ma and I'm the founder and CEO of Tropic Skincare.
00:27Having scaled the heights of the beauty world, she's now investing in the future.
00:32Welcome to the den.
00:33Thank you so much for having me. It's a pleasure to be here.
00:37Tropic has been one of the top 100 fastest growing businesses in the UK.
00:41That's what I'm looking for.
00:43I started when I was 15 years old with one product that I sold at a market store to help
00:48support my mum.
00:49How much do you want this to work?
00:52By the age of 17, I was able to put a deposit down on a house for her, and at
00:5621, I paid off her mortgage.
00:58I'm getting emotional here.
01:00I then went on The Apprentice.
01:02Are you listening to me?
01:03No, I am listening.
01:05Because I'm telling you, I know about this business.
01:07Didn't win.
01:08Susan, I'm afraid to say you're fired.
01:11But got an investment anyway from Lord Sugar.
01:13And about three years ago, I bought his shares back to be the 100% owner of my company again.
01:18When I look into the eyes of the entrepreneurs, I want to see real passion.
01:23I really like you.
01:24I'm looking for that entrepreneur with that seed of an idea that I know I can invest in support to
01:29make it something amazing.
01:32The pressure is on, and the dragons are sharpening their claws.
01:46I'm Tanika.
01:47I'm Olivia.
01:48We're sisters and co-founders of Cubby.
01:51Cheers.
01:53We're taking another entrepreneur into the den with us.
01:56I'm currently 38 weeks pregnant and booked in for my C-section next week.
02:01You're making a bump work for you.
02:03This is our moneymaker.
02:06I'm really excited to see what Susie has to say as a new dragon.
02:11I think we look really good together, guys.
02:13Do you know what?
02:14We're doing navy, white, navy, kind of white, navy brown.
02:18Almost like we phoned each other last night and said...
02:22She's just had a baby, so I think this might be a good one for her.
02:26Try not to go into labour.
02:29Yeah.
02:41Try not to go into labour.
02:43Try not to go into labour.
02:56We're making a 10% stake in our company in return for £50,000.
03:00We started building Cubby when my son was just eight weeks old.
03:03And I was hyper-aware that my salary was taking regular downward turns while on maternity pay.
03:09The things I'd usually do to make myself feel normal, like a cup of coffee in my favourite coffee shop,
03:14or a pair of new jeans to fit my changing body, were now riddled with guilt.
03:19I found myself spending hours searching for discount codes and deals to make my budget stretch as far as possible.
03:25And that's why we built Cubby.
03:27Cubby works in a similar way to other multi-million pound discount platforms,
03:31offering verified new parents' exclusive discounts across their favourite brands.
03:36Since we launched just over a year ago, we've amassed nearly 20,000 followers on social media,
03:41almost 12,000 app downloads, and have partnered with over 100 brands.
03:46Our app is free for new parents to use,
03:49and our business model is based on commission paid to us by brands when users shop via our app.
03:55The market opportunity here is huge.
03:57Nearly 700,000 babies are born in the UK each year,
04:01and we estimate their parents are spending a combined £20 billion during their year on parental leave.
04:09We're now ready to scale our business,
04:10and we'd love to partner with The Dragon to help us achieve our ambitious goals.
04:18A fledgling discount app designed to ease the financial pressure on new parents
04:24is the offering from sisters Tanika and Olivia Davson.
04:30The entrepreneurs are seeking £50,000 for a 10% share of their business.
04:37First to dive into the details is Peter Jones.
04:41The Dragon to help us achieve our goals.
04:43The Dragon to help us achieve our goals.
04:46The Dragon to help us achieve our goals.
04:46Tanika, Olivia.
04:47Hi.
04:48Great pitch, great opening pitch.
04:51Totally get what it is.
04:53However, it immediately put a ceiling on the opportunity when you said that it's only available
04:58to new parents, and you gave me the stats, 700,000 per annum.
05:02Yeah.
05:03Why would you restrict it to that level?
05:06We decided to target new parents in the beginning because, first of all, from a marketing perspective,
05:12it's really easy to kind of find that niche group and target it to them so they understand what it
05:17is.
05:17But this is just the initial phase of our business,
05:20and we certainly want to expand to have older parents as their children grow as well.
05:26So, at the moment, what's the revenue on this?
05:30What does that look like?
05:31Yeah.
05:32So, we do consider ourselves pre-revenue.
05:34So, the year ahead is our year one.
05:36We're looking to generate £20,000.
05:38Year two, we will generate £160,000.
05:44Revenue.
05:44In revenue.
05:45Revenue, yeah.
05:46And year three, we'll start making a profit.
05:50So, we will generate £600,000 with a profit of £190,000.
05:56And excitingly, looking ahead to year five,
05:58we're looking to generate £5.5 million with a net profit of £5 million.
06:09And that's it, actually, for a moment.
06:13I think you've got a great idea, but you're not capitalised on it.
06:20I've got four or five baby brands, so I know that market very well.
06:25And in my view, there are loads of baby brands, children's brands out there,
06:34who are willing to give discounts, coupons, discount codes.
06:39But it's underutilised in the sense that I think there's an opportunity
06:45for you to specialise in, let's say, age 10.
06:52And I think you're limiting yourself just talking about new parents.
06:57Completely agree.
06:58I think what we're trying to do now, as Tanika mentioned,
07:02this is our entry into the market.
07:03And absolutely, we're looking to expand to parents of older children.
07:07But you're putting barriers.
07:08You see, I think if I was to advise you, I would say open the barriers up, guys.
07:15You'd be the number one stop shop for discount codes for baby brands.
07:21So, our brands on board are much broader than just baby and kids.
07:26That's such a small element of our...
07:27We want to offer discounts across everything.
07:29So, whether it's your takeaway or your jeans for you,
07:34or your new computer, it's anything...
07:37Too complicated, too complicated.
07:38Well, it's a model that works already for student discounts.
07:41But you're...
07:42So, all you respect, you're focusing on newborn babies
07:46and you're talking about everything, G.
07:47You see, if you...
07:49We're not focusing...
07:50We're not focusing on new babies.
07:51We're focusing on that period of time where a new mum has had a baby.
07:55She's lost who she is.
07:56She can't go to her favourite coffee shop.
07:58She's feeling guilty about buying a pair of jeans.
08:01So, although we know we're not solving the problem in its entirety,
08:05we're sort of lightening the load for new parents.
08:07I can completely relate to that.
08:09Like, new mums want to know about, I don't know,
08:12a discount off of a yoga app they can download to help them feel better.
08:15It's the way that sucks you in a little bit and makes you feel more confident.
08:20There's so much.
08:20Getting your hair done.
08:21Getting your makeup done.
08:22Exactly.
08:23A little massage.
08:24I thought I did in my pictures.
08:27I love this.
08:28I love that it's for new mums.
08:30I really, really do.
08:31You've got some very ambitious targets for the next few years, which I love.
08:36Tell me how you're going to be going to 5.5 million in revenue in year five.
08:41Yes, so in year three, we're going to look to open up our platform to parents of older children.
08:47And we estimate about 35 to 45% of parents will stay on with us.
08:52We're looking to do it at that stage because at that point we feel like we'll have a significant amount
08:56of brands
08:56where the value for new parents makes sense for them to want to continue on our platform.
09:02Amazing.
09:03Tanika, Olivia, I really like the concept and I think you're right to be focusing on that new parent niche,
09:09especially at the beginning.
09:10So if you get the £50,000 today, what are you planning to spend it on?
09:15So majority of that will go on marketing.
09:19So we've seen really good traction on social media, Instagram specifically.
09:22So we would like to try and transfer that over to TikTok and make use of other social media platforms.
09:31And then outside of that, we think we've already started some conversations with the NHS.
09:36If we could find a way to get in their leaflet packs and just get in front of new parents
09:40at the point in time
09:41that they are finding out about their baby, that would give us the reach that we really need in terms
09:46of numbers.
09:47OK.
09:49Can I ask you a question?
09:50No, because I've been desperate to get in there.
09:52Oh, sorry.
09:53Can I just ask, because both of you, you've answered your questions really eloquently and really knowledgeably.
10:00What industries are you currently in? What industry are you in at the moment?
10:04I work in financial services.
10:05Financial services and?
10:07I work in the world's biggest e-commerce platform and I'm in engineering project management.
10:11Well, that starts explaining it because, you know, you clearly have an in-depth knowledge.
10:17You haven't just thought, oh, this is a great idea.
10:19And working out how you do it, you clearly know how to do it.
10:26This is like a movie, this is.
10:28This is like a movie with no script and you have another job and you've got a dream.
10:34But at the end of the day, back to reality.
10:38And the reality tells me you're going to need a lot of money.
10:42I don't think we will.
10:44We know how much money we think we'll need and this is why we focused on a small niche.
10:49This discounts element of our business has super high profit margins.
10:54You're fantastic.
10:56But the reality is, how do we take this from where it is today to a proper business?
11:03Yeah, yeah. Absolutely.
11:04And how do you take that leap and commit yourself full time to this?
11:09You have to take the leap.
11:10We're ready and we're ready to do that now.
11:12Yeah, we are doing it.
11:13The thing is, the reason that we haven't grown more is because we don't have the time.
11:17So we both need to focus on this full time.
11:20And we are going to do that.
11:21And we're going to do that.
11:22And we are doing it.
11:22Are you leaving your jobs to do this?
11:25Yes.
11:26Are you?
11:27Wow, that's massive commitment.
11:30A massive risk.
11:31We know that.
11:32But I think in a year's time, if we're still in this place here because we haven't been able to
11:36put the hours in to make it something, I will kick myself.
11:40But I would never want to put anybody in that position if they're going to give up their job because
11:46they believe in it and they're struggling at the back end.
11:50That's not what I want.
11:50Whether you invest or not, we're giving up our job.
11:54We're going to raise money for this business and we're going to deliver it.
11:56So you can either be in it or not.
11:58And also...
12:01Right.
12:02Guys, I'm going to cut across here because you just made my mind.
12:08Listen, you two are really, really, really good.
12:18And so I am going to make you an offer and I absolutely assure you it's down to you two.
12:25So you've asked for £50,000 for 10% of the business.
12:30I'm going to offer you all of the money.
12:34And I want 20% of the business.
12:37Your very early stage.
12:39Yes.
12:41And Tanika and Olivia, I'm going to follow on straight away because you are both incredibly, incredibly good.
12:50However, this is not sort of what I would class as my sort of wheelhouse.
12:55OK.
12:56So I'm going to say that I'm out.
13:02Um, this is going to take quite a few years.
13:07It's not a 12-month project.
13:09You're not going to wave a magic wand and change it.
13:12And for that reason, I'm out.
13:14OK.
13:15Thank you, Tuka.
13:18Tanika, Olivia.
13:19Um, I've really enjoyed watching this.
13:21It's been so fun.
13:22Um, and I think I've, I've sat here trying to figure out whether, whether I want to invest or I
13:29just want to be your friend.
13:31But 50k is a lot of money to spend on a friend.
13:35So, um, for that reason, I'm going to say that I'm out.
13:37But I wish you the very, very best for the future.
13:39And I feel so proud of you even though I don't really know you.
13:41Well done.
13:47I think you're amazing.
13:49I really do.
13:50And, you know, when I look at what you're trying to do, it reminds me of how I first started
13:56in business.
13:57And sometimes you do have to put absolutely everything on the line in order to chase your dreams.
14:04And I would love to support you in that journey.
14:07And in my, my good, my...
14:10Sorry, I'm getting emotional here.
14:12My, um, my expertise is building a community.
14:16You know, a lot of people think that when you start up a new business, the most important thing is
14:20marketing.
14:22Yeah.
14:22But actually, I believe in the power of the word of mouth.
14:26Yes.
14:27And I've proven that, you know, in my business, I spend a tiny fraction of our everyday revenue on advertising,
14:34on social media, on any of that stuff.
14:36And we have built an incredible community of over 20,000 ambassadors that are active every single month buying our
14:44products and selling our products.
14:45And we've literally done that through word of mouth.
14:48Yeah.
14:48And I think the mummy and new parent community is so tight-knit.
14:52Oh, it's so tight.
14:52Yeah.
14:53So that's where I feel I can really help you at.
14:58So, I am going to make you an offer.
15:01If you ask £50,000 for 10% of your business, I'm going to offer you all of the money,
15:07and I'm going to go for the 10% that you've asked for as well.
15:13Thank you, Susie.
15:14Of course.
15:15That's amazing.
15:19Thank you, Deborah, and thank you, Susie, for your offers.
15:26We would love to accept your offer, Susie.
15:30Well done.
15:31Oh, my God, can I give you all that?
15:33Oh, my God.
15:36Victory for Olivia and Tanika.
15:38Good luck next week.
15:41Well done.
15:42With new mum, Susie Ma, in their corner, their business has a nurturing start, as the debutante dragon proudly lands
15:51her first deal.
15:55What happened?
15:57I don't know.
15:57I can't even remember.
15:59Yeah, it was good.
16:00And we're really happy to walk away with Susie.
16:04I don't usually high-five a competitor, but...
16:07Aw!
16:10You smashed it.
16:12I was being a bit sussy, wasn't I?
16:14Yeah, it was good.
16:16Don't mess with a pregnant woman.
16:18Unfortunately, I won't be celebrating with a glass of wine tonight.
16:22I will.
16:22Um...
16:24LAUGHTER
16:38We just need to do a bit of the power.
16:40What was it?
16:40This one.
16:41Power stance.
16:42I'm Louise.
16:43I'm Louise.
16:43This is Kate.
16:44And we're the co-founders of Craft & Crumb.
16:46Whatever happens.
16:49I'll tell you something, don't you?
16:53Cookies?
16:53Yeah.
16:55You add water, or an egg, and you make your own cookies.
16:58Fine.
16:58So, what's new?
16:59What's the twist?
17:00Yeah, I don't know why you just don't buy a cookie.
17:05We're lucky in the fact that we're still able to be friends and run a business together.
17:09It makes it more fun doing it with your best friend.
17:12There we go.
17:13I couldn't really wish to do it with anyone better.
17:26Hello, Dragons.
17:27I'm Louise.
17:28And I'm Kate.
17:29And we are the founders of Craft & Crumb.
17:31We're on a mission to make home baking more creative, more connected, and way more fun.
17:37We're here today looking for £100,000 in exchange for 3% of our business.
17:44Wow.
17:44Kate and I met when our kids were little.
17:46Kate was one of those mums who loved baking with her kids and was very good at it.
17:51I, on the other hand, was not.
17:54So many parents are looking for creative opportunities and fun things to do with their kids.
17:59But often, they can find it very overwhelming.
18:02I just wanted a simple baking kit.
18:04One that contained everything that was needed and was well thought through.
18:12That's when we realised we didn't just want to improve baking mixes.
18:16We wanted to create an amazing experience.
18:19Something that felt exciting, creative, and tasted delicious.
18:23And Craft & Crumb was launched in 2016 from My Kitchen Table.
18:27We started with baking kits.
18:29And then we went on to launch our bake kit party bags.
18:32As there were so many parents, like ourselves, who were fed up of our kids, coming home from a party
18:37with yet another plastic bag full of tat.
18:40Then lockdown happened.
18:43And, of course, baking became the nation's favourite pastime.
18:46Our business boomed.
18:47We moved into a fulfilment centre and launched into John Lewis, Ocado and Selfridges.
18:53In the past two weeks, we have just launched into 230 Tesco stores on their accelerator scheme, which is a
18:59major milestone for us.
19:00Thank you very much.
19:02We'd like to invite two of you to come decorate a biscuit.
19:06What about our guest dragon?
19:08Wow.
19:08I'd love to.
19:09As someone who never bakes.
19:11So, who's going to come and join Susie?
19:14All right, I'll do it.
19:14Let's do it, Stephen.
19:15Right, I'll do it.
19:17A children's home baking kit with clever crafting added in is the offering from Kate Horne and Louise Nicholson.
19:27This is my, um, R.A. level.
19:30It's quite nice to have those two quiet for a minute.
19:33The entrepreneurs are seeking £100,000.
19:38Deborah, I finished.
19:43That's amazing.
19:45I'm never eating that.
19:46That's going to be framed and that's going on my wall.
19:49And that's a happy face because we're all happy to be in the den.
19:54In exchange for a 3% share in their business.
19:58Oh, wait.
19:59Hang on a second.
20:00Hang on a second.
20:01All right, let's see.
20:02What have you done?
20:03OK, sorry.
20:03Oh, you, Pete.
20:05I will never trust you again.
20:08Cheat.
20:08We do, in fact, have a little something for each one of you.
20:12Wow.
20:15Stephen Bartlett may not be playing by the rules.
20:19I can't believe you thought I did that.
20:22Stephen, I was shocked.
20:25But a more obedient Susie Ma is ready to get down to business.
20:33Louise and Kate, first of all, congratulations.
20:37What a gorgeous business.
20:39I love the branding.
20:39I love the animals, the creativity, the fun side of it.
20:43Help me understand about the actual product itself in terms of the cookie that is made.
20:47Because I'm looking at your ingredients and I'm seeing flour and caster sugar.
20:52Do you have a range with slightly healthier alternatives, like brown flour, whole grain flour?
20:59So, we are mums.
21:02We've got five children.
21:02We're health conscious.
21:04We care what they eat.
21:05It is definitely important to us.
21:06We're not marketing this as something that we eat every day.
21:10It's a creative activity with a treat at the end.
21:13But what we'd love to do is have a more health conscious range.
21:18We'd have an allergy sensitive range.
21:19We've got loads of ideas.
21:20But at this moment with the resources that we've got, we're concentrating on this.
21:25But it's absolutely something that we would love to do in the future.
21:28I suppose if I was shopping for this kind of product, what is the reason why I would buy your
21:34product over your competitors' products?
21:36So, our product, we spend a lot of time working out what that creative bake is.
21:41So, you might find our competitors are make a cupcake and then put a wafer on it.
21:45For us, you're making leopard print biscuits, you know, burger and chips out of cakes.
21:49We also have, obviously, the craft activity that's on the inside of the box.
21:52And we know that our customers are quite happy to gift our kit just as much as have it and
21:56use it with their own children.
21:58Because it's premium and it's design looking.
22:00So, your point of difference isn't necessarily the final product itself, but the experience, the fun of it in making
22:07that product.
22:09OK.
22:13Now, 100,000 for 3%, you must have knocked it out of the park.
22:19This must be a great business and making lots of money.
22:22So, tell me about that.
22:23The last 12 months, what have you turned over?
22:25What's been your net profit?
22:27So, last 12 months, we turned over 1,065,000 with a net of 66,000.
22:3566.
22:36OK.
22:37And the year before?
22:38And the year before that, we turned over 905,000 with a net of 44.
22:43OK.
22:44And what's the forecast for this year?
22:46So, this year, we are forecasting 1.5 million and 15,000 for our net.
22:5415,000?
22:55Yeah.
22:56So, you're going to make 15,000 pounds and you're valuing a business over 3 million.
23:00So, this is our tough year because this is our big year of scaling up.
23:03So, this year, we launched into Tesco, but over the next couple of years, we intend to be in three
23:08and then five supermarkets over the following years.
23:10So, in year two, we were looking to take 3.2 million with a net then of 200,000 pounds.
23:19Right.
23:21You've done well, haven't you, to think you can get a valuation of 3 million away?
23:25Well, we look to say that we have 10 years.
23:27We've been going for nearly 10 years.
23:28Is that how long it's been going?
23:30Nearly 10 years, yeah.
23:35Louise and Kate, we play a game before you walked in, which is we try and guess what it is
23:41just from looking at it.
23:42And we all knew what it was.
23:44So, there was a silence.
23:45Actually, the silence was because we were trying to figure out what the twist was.
23:48What was the innovation here?
23:49And you walked out and you basically revealed that there isn't really a twist to this business.
23:55It's a home baking kit.
23:57Part of the issue with that is that alludes to the fact that this is an incredibly competitive market.
24:04And so, I wasn't surprised to then hear that when we look at your top line revenue growth, it's about
24:0810, 15% a year.
24:10So, as an investor, I need to see a growth profile to indicate to me that there is defensibility here
24:16and the idea.
24:17There's some kind of innovation here.
24:19And as I've looked and I've looked and I've looked and Susie asked you a question, the point of innovation
24:23is it's more fun.
24:26Now, I have to then sit here and figure out if I want to, if that's a big enough value
24:30proposition and a defendable enough value proposition and one that your competitors also aren't saying when they market their products
24:35for this to take off.
24:37And I don't think it is.
24:40So, I'm going to say that I'm out, but I wish you the best.
24:45Kate and Louise, I mean, this is really difficult.
24:50In terms of the, you've done really well to create a product and you've done it from your kitchen and
24:55then now you've got a business.
24:57You've done really well to get into supermarkets, but I think your three million valuation is just ridiculous.
25:03There's no question that this business is worth nowhere near that.
25:06In fact, I would question if it's even getting up to the seven figure level.
25:11You are great entrepreneurs and you've done a brilliant job getting to this point, but I don't think it's an
25:17investment because I don't think I'm going to get a return.
25:20I think you're going to need a lot more dough.
25:23And on that basis, it can't get an investment from me today, so I'm going to say that I'm out.
25:33So, all I can say to you is it's time to review your whole business.
25:39Do not plan big expansion, but caution, focus, and consolidate.
25:48I wish you all the best, but today I'm not going to part with £100,000.
25:53So, for that reason, I'm out.
25:59Louise and Kate, I really commend you for what you've done.
26:04I mean, if you have a look at what you've created in your business, you've generated millions.
26:09But what concerns me the most is that for a business that has been going for 10 years,
26:16you're ending with £15,000 profit and the valuation that you have set is not reflective of your actual business
26:26because the profit is not there.
26:30And so, for that reason, I'm out.
26:36So, I'm going to tell you where I am.
26:40I think this is a business for you.
26:43And it's sometimes businesses do take a while to grow.
26:46It can take some time to do that.
26:48And then suddenly you wake up and think, oh, my goodness.
26:51We've really got something here, which is what I suspect happened to you.
26:53It started off as, well, let's do it.
26:55Let's make a bit of money.
26:57And now you're thinking, wow, we can do this.
26:59But I think it's for you.
27:00You're smart.
27:01You can do it.
27:02You've done it already.
27:03You're good.
27:05I think you have a great business.
27:06But I won't be investing.
27:08I'm out.
27:10Thank you very much.
27:11Good luck.
27:12Thank you all for your feedback.
27:13Thank you for coming in.
27:16That's it for Kate and Louise.
27:18Their hard work earned them admiration from the Dragons.
27:23But their limited profits proved a hurdle too high for a deal to be made.
27:28We obviously didn't get investment, but the Dragons gave us great feedback, actually, which we all take on board.
27:33Absolutely delighted with ourselves, really interested, worthy of patting ourselves on the back.
27:37I hope they understand how well they have done.
27:40Yes.
27:41Yeah.
27:41A million pounds.
27:42I suppose that's the way Cookie crumbles, isn't it?
28:00OK.
28:01Green light.
28:02Going to lift it.
28:03Ah.
28:03Do you want...
28:03Yeah.
28:04I don't even want the water.
28:05I'm Richard.
28:06This is Erica.
28:06We're from Combo Closet.
28:08It's going to be good.
28:10Oh, baby.
28:11Oh, there's this.
28:12OK.
28:14We're trying to make off-grid toilets more convenient.
28:16Everybody poops.
28:17Yeah.
28:19There's no pouring back now.
28:20It's fine.
28:22Port-a-loo.
28:22Port-a-loo.
28:23Yeah.
28:24I think these are quite versatile, though.
28:25They're not just for camping.
28:26Everyday use.
28:28Stuck on the M6.
28:29Oh, right.
28:29In your car.
28:30Could have done with that about three hours ago.
28:35I'm so nervous.
28:37And I try to smile.
28:38And everybody poops.
28:50Hello, Dragons.
28:51My name is Richard.
28:52I'm the CEO and co-founder of Combo Closet.
28:55Hello, Dragons.
28:55My name is Erica.
28:56I am the co-founder and head of marketing at Combo Closet.
29:00So often we experience off-grid toilets as a dirty, inconvenient chore.
29:04Combo Closet is looking to revolutionize off-grid sanitation.
29:08It started in 2020 when I installed a market-leading composting toilet in my campervan.
29:13Then I found it so much less unpleasant to empty than a regular portable toilet that uses chemicals.
29:19However, I saw a lot of room for improvement.
29:21And in 2021 we crowd for the Cuddy, which was the portable composting toilet specifically designed for campervans.
29:27So Cuddy is a composting toilet.
29:29It uses a compost process in order to break down your number twos.
29:32Yeah.
29:32They all use urine diversion to separate them out and stop the formation of sewage.
29:36But with Cuddy, you actually add a carbon-rich material to it and it starts breaking down that number two.
29:42Our latest product is the S1 Sealer.
29:44It is a dry flush toilet and that seals waste in a compostable or a plastic bag.
29:51So far the business has been doing very well and last year's turnover was just over £700,000.
29:57We sell primarily direct to consumer in North America, US, Canada and the UK.
30:02And we have distributors in Australia, New Zealand and Germany.
30:05We're currently looking for £100,000 for a 3% stake in the business.
30:11I'll go into a quick demonstration of each product, but that's OK.
30:14Not quite a live demo.
30:16Not a live demonstration.
30:20A range of composting toilets, which break down waste without water or chemicals,
30:26are the proposition from Richard Peter and Erica Pugh.
30:31So this is our first product. It's Cuddy. It's a urine-diverting toilet.
30:36And they work by separating solids and liquids with a urine-diverting seat.
30:42Inside, there's an agitator, which makes it self-contained.
30:46So what you would add is the sawdust or Coca-Cola at the start,
30:49and then you mix it after each use so you don't make a mess.
30:53The pair are seeking £100,000.
30:56Cuddy Light has all the same features, but we took away the poo mixing,
31:00so you would pre-bag it and add sawdust after each use.
31:04In exchange for 3% of their company.
31:07And lastly, we have the S1 sealer.
31:10This is a dry flush toilet, and it has all the same features.
31:14However, when you press flush, it will kindly seal the waste in a compostable bag.
31:24The entrepreneurs have already lifted the lids on their products.
31:28Now it's time for the dragons to lift the lid on their business.
31:38Richard and Erica, hi. Hi.
31:40Hello there.
31:41Absolutely looks fantastic.
31:43Thank you. Thank you, yeah.
31:46But is it comfortable? Try it. Try it.
31:50Just keep your trousers on.
31:52Yeah, yeah.
31:54He's quite tall, isn't he?
31:56Is that...?
31:59Is that how you...?
32:00Are you riding it like a horse?
32:02I had to reverse in.
32:04I feel like we're in a bigger one.
32:06Is that how you...?
32:06Can you close the curtain?
32:08Well, you've got to get the... the thing in, haven't you?
32:11Oh, yeah.
32:12Oh, my God.
32:13No?
32:15Am I the only one with that issue?
32:16I think you probably want to be a bit further back in the tent,
32:18but it's a loo with the view. Look at it, you're good.
32:20It's quite small.
32:21Yeah, it's low.
32:22It's designed to go under a bench seat.
32:24Do they come in bigger versions?
32:25That's what we want to...
32:26That's exactly what we want to develop next.
32:28A full-size version.
32:28A full-size version, yeah.
32:29OK, cos if I was to invest,
32:30I think I'd need a bigger version, if that's all right.
32:33Just for you.
32:35Hi, guys. Hi.
32:37I used to know a lot about composting toilets
32:39cos I was looking at putting them down by my stables,
32:42but when you're talking, sort of bits of that are coming back,
32:45but I've lost the whole picture.
32:47Yes.
32:48So, can you talk about the IP?
32:50Do you have any protection on it?
32:52The specific IP within Cuddy is the extending agitator.
32:57So, typically, they would have them on the side,
33:00and that requires a lot of space,
33:01whereas we put ours on the front,
33:02where you always have to wear access cos you've got to sit on it,
33:05and it extends.
33:06That means that it's more compact for a campervan.
33:10It's patent pending.
33:11We haven't pushed it to Grant.
33:14We've pushed it to...
33:15Do you want to put the lid down as well?
33:16Oh, thank you.
33:18Yes, Mum.
33:22We haven't pushed it to Grant.
33:24We've filed it internationally in America, Australia, Europe and the UK.
33:29OK, got it. Thank you.
33:32Hi, guys.
33:33Can I get a confirmation on your revenue and profit?
33:36So, you said it was 780, was it, revenue?
33:40700.
33:40705, yeah.
33:42705.
33:42Yeah.
33:43Revenue.
33:43And what's your net profit?
33:46Net profit this last year was £75,000.
33:50OK.
33:51And what are you forecasting for this next year, this upcoming year?
33:54The target for sales for this year is £1.2 million sterling.
33:58Yeah.
33:59We're at about £415,000 in revenue.
34:03And what are you forecasting for the end of the year in terms of profitability?
34:06I would expect, for the end of the year, a £300,000 loss.
34:13OK.
34:13So, I'm trying to figure out if I invest £100,000, which is a lot of money, for 3%.
34:17You know, I have to do the math to figure out if I can get a seven-figure return on
34:24that investment over time.
34:26So, give me the big picture vision of how big this business can get and then just detail for me
34:31how it gets there.
34:32So, with the growth of the business in the next two years, we're planning to achieve a £4 million turnover.
34:39And the profitability there?
34:41I would expect profitability closer to £1 million.
34:45So, if you have £1 million of profit and I have 3% of the business, how much am I
34:51going to get paid as a dividend that year?
34:53Nothing. We'll reinvest it.
34:56The real growth for the business isn't just, like, next year. We're looking for investors that are in this for
35:02longer term.
35:03We want to start with this model on the S1, prove that it works, and then make a larger model
35:09to take on, like, 5%, at least 5% of the RV market.
35:13So, when do you think I get my money back in a multiple? Is there a year?
35:17A year?
35:18I would say...
35:20A long time.
35:21I reckon you'd be talking seven years.
35:26I guess all of this is contingent on this being so unique and such a better solution that people will
35:32continue to choose this over the alternative.
35:34So, I have to turn to our portable poop connoisseur, Deborah Mead, and I have to...
35:39How different is this in terms of...?
35:41I think my question would be, in the RVs at the moment, the toilets look a lot more like toilets.
35:47Yes.
35:48So, they're full-size toilets, and they are basically plumbed in. They're toilets.
35:52Yes.
35:53So, I think there's two issues here.
35:55One is the consumer behaviour, because that doesn't have the same experience.
35:59But the second one is, and having worked in the caravan industry, trying to get them to change the layouts
36:06of blinking caravans,
36:08and, oh, my goodness, it's hard.
36:10Because their whole manufacturing process is built around putting in normal toilets in plumbed into tanks.
36:18I didn't give you a lot of hope there, did I?
36:20So, for that reason, I'm going to say that I'm out.
36:23But I wish you the very best.
36:24I just can't see how I'll be able to get a return from that basis.
36:28Yes, sir.
36:35Richard and Erica, it sounds like you are very passionate about this subject.
36:41But as an investment, I'm only taking a three-year view at the moment.
36:49I'm not taking a seven-year view, unfortunately.
36:52Because I get offered lots of investments, and I can get a much better return.
36:57So, for that reason, I'm out.
37:03Guys, look, you clearly know your stuff, and I really commend you for that.
37:08Unfortunately for me, this is not an area that I'm passionate about, and I don't think I'm the right dragon
37:12for you guys.
37:13So, for that reason, I'm out.
37:18Richard and Erica, I think this is absolutely brilliant.
37:24I think that you both have presented really, really well.
37:28Richard, you're nervous, and yet you're quirky.
37:31As a character, you'd be amazing, both of you, to work with.
37:34I think you'd be refreshing, and I'd like to be given that chance.
37:40So, that's why I'm going to make you an offer.
37:44If you'd come in here in 12 months' time, and you had your patent, and you had everything teed up,
37:50and this was a purely, sort of, let's say, more advice-led investment,
37:57I think the offer of 100,000 at 3% would be right.
38:02But I do think that you're over-evaluing at this moment what you've got.
38:07And that's why I'm going to make you an offer of all of the money, but for 20% of
38:11the business.
38:13Into the Jones.
38:1820%!
38:22And I'd also be willing to share that.
38:26They wanted three.
38:28Well, it doesn't matter what they want.
38:29I actually, I think that's a fair offer.
38:32I tell you what, I tell you what, I like what you do, but I also understand the journey you've
38:38got ahead of you.
38:39What you've got going for you is people are becoming increasingly concerned, particularly people who jump into their RVs and
38:46travel around,
38:47particularly concerned about the environment.
38:56You better not make an offer after telling me this had no hope.
39:01I didn't.
39:02I answered your questions, honestly, and I stand by those answers.
39:20Do you know what? I'm not going to make you an offer.
39:22Because I can't see, for me, that it's an investment that I'm going to get a reasonable return on in
39:28a reasonable amount of time.
39:29So, I'm afraid I'm out.
39:31Thank you. Thank you very much.
39:41So, 20% is obviously a big chunk of the business.
39:45Do you have connections with the RV industry and those manufacturers, or do you have connections of connections?
39:49No, no, I wouldn't want to oversell that. I don't have those direct connections.
39:54OK.
39:55However, we do have the ability to open doors that perhaps were closed previously.
40:01OK.
40:04I think...
40:06I think we're going to decline the offer.
40:09I do appreciate the offer.
40:13We believe we'd like to continue to try and grow it ourselves and see where the journey takes us.
40:20Good for you.
40:21Do you know what? I completely respect that decision.
40:26So, on that basis, I have to say that I'm out.
40:29But good luck to you.
40:37Richard and Erica must leave the den without a deal.
40:41Oh.
40:46OK.
40:48The gulf between their ask and Peter Jones' offer...
40:52That was fun.
40:55Proving too wide to bridge.
40:58I think we would have gone to maybe 10% or something, but I think 20% wasn't what we
41:03were expecting as far as giving away the equity.
41:0620%, wow.
41:07We wanted a Dragon, but not at that price.
41:10I had to go in at a much higher level than they were offering.
41:14Honestly, Peter, that is the fair offer. They have got massive obstacles ahead of them.
41:34So, we're here.
41:37And this is it.
41:38I'm Thomas.
41:39This is Martin.
41:40And we're from OnlyCat.
41:41We got this.
41:42We got this.
41:45Jinx really came up with the idea.
41:47Jinx is my cat.
41:48She started bringing in lots and lots of mice and birds in the middle of the night and I had
41:53to do something about it.
41:56This is like got Deborah Meaden written all over it.
41:58Do you have cats, Deborah?
42:00I do have cats and dogs and horses and geese and sheep.
42:04Got a whole zoo at your house.
42:06I love it.
42:07I'm feeling both excited and, yeah, obviously a little bit nervous.
42:15It's a great opportunity to showcase what we've spent the last three and a half years building.
42:21Let's see if they like it.
42:34Hello, dragons. My name is Martin.
42:37And I'm Tom. We're brothers and the founders of OnlyCat.
42:40We've created a smart AI-powered cat flap designed to stop your cats bringing home prey.
42:47This is OnlyCat.
42:48The built-in AI-enabled camera screens your cats upon entry.
42:53If prey is detected, the door remains locked.
42:57We even send video alerts to your phone so you can see the foiled attempts.
43:01The feedback from the OnlyCat community is phenomenal.
43:06They say it's worth every penny, even at our £450 premium price point.
43:11The pet tech market is booming and we've already raised over £750,000 in pre-orders.
43:20And we're here today looking for £200,000 investment in return for 4% equity in our business.
43:29We'd love to do a demo of the product to show you how it works.
43:32Great.
43:35A 21st century take on the cat flap is the offering from Martin and Tom Rosinski.
43:41So over here, I have the OnlyCat app installed on my phone.
43:46So I'm now on the activity feed.
43:49So I'm seeing a list of all recent entries and exits, both from my cat Jinx, but also from friends
43:56and family who have chosen to share their OnlyCat devices with me so I can keep in touch with their
44:02cats.
44:03The siblings are seeking £200,000.
44:07So as Jinx approaches, the cat flap scans a face, detects that the cat is coming home alone and the
44:14cat can pass through the cat flap.
44:17In return for 4% of their business.
44:20But now Tom has attached a fluffy toy mouse to the cat.
44:25The cat flap recognises what's happening and the cat was not allowed entry.
44:30Fashion mogul Tuukka Suleiman might be more familiar with cat walks than cat flaps, but he's first to quiz the
44:37pair further.
44:41Right, Martin and Tom.
44:44So tell us about each one of you, what your background is, what your qualifications are.
44:50So get an idea.
44:52Absolutely, yeah.
44:53So we're both fascinated by technology.
44:55My background has always been electronics and software.
44:59Previously, I founded a company called Wolf, the world's online festival.
45:03That grew to be a business bringing in $10 million of revenue annually.
45:09My background is in mechanical engineering.
45:12A CEO of an engineering consultancy company that does problem solving and troubleshooting of vibrating machinery.
45:19So that business, we've got a turnover of 4 million.
45:23So at the moment, you mentioned that it's not cheap, £450.
45:30Yes, it's a premium product.
45:32How much does that box cost you to manufacture?
45:39We are looking at around £160.
45:46And your route to market is going to be online direct to consumer or is it a wholesale model or
45:53what?
45:53So at the moment, it is direct to consumer.
45:57Right, so give us some numbers.
45:58So your sales, your gross profit and your net profit.
46:01So last year, we had 352,000 revenue, 155,000 gross and zero net.
46:09This year, we are looking at 1.9 million turnover.
46:15We're now seeing weekly orders in the region of 30,000 and that has been growing on an exponential trajectory.
46:20So 30,000 a week.
46:22Correct.
46:22Yes.
46:23So 1.9 gross profit.
46:26847,000.
46:27Yep.
46:28And 339,000 profit the net.
46:35Can we just look at your, I think it's really, I think it's obviously a really neat price.
46:41It's not something I would use to be perfectly honest.
46:42I don't have a cat flap and I let the cats in and out.
46:45But I completely get it.
46:47I think the price is quite racy.
46:49What would an electronic cat flap that allows me to let cats in and out, what would that cost?
46:54The most basic cat flap that can let only your cats in costs around £50.
47:01Yeah.
47:01Then there are connected cat flaps, which can cost £230, but we have the prey detection and also the camera.
47:09Okay.
47:10So let's talk about IP.
47:12What have you got?
47:14So we have a patent that's pending on the AI technology and the prey detection.
47:20And more fundamentally, we believe in the training data that's necessary to train the algorithms isn't easy to new entrants
47:26on the market.
47:27Okay.
47:28So I've got to ask you, you've got experience, you've got technical skills.
47:41Why do you want a dragon?
47:43Sure.
47:43So we want to accelerate our manufacturing.
47:47We want to reach more customers and really amplify the direct to consumer growth that we've been seeing.
47:55Yeah.
47:55But as I said, you have experience, you know how to make stuff and you know how to get it
47:58made.
47:59So my experience is in business to business, not business to consumer.
48:05That's a very different market.
48:07But you can manufacture.
48:08You're an engineer.
48:10Yes.
48:11But I would say, for me personally, what would be of great value is, for example, big box distribution to
48:19create those distribution networks to take our products.
48:22That's interesting because you just said it was manufacturing and it, and I'm just trying to get to the, you've
48:26just changed why you need.
48:27Manufacturing a consumer product at scale is very different to manufacturing low quantity bespoke products for advanced engineering applications, which
48:36is where the expertise lies.
48:38Okay.
48:38So we've figured this out as we've gone along so far.
48:42And in terms of telling the story, this is currently us wearing many hats, putting on a hat thinking, let's
48:48dabble with creating a video for social media.
48:50But we are not marketing experts.
48:53The whole mindset and know-how of how to tell that story optimally on social media is something we don't
49:00have.
49:01The dragons do.
49:03So it's, it's that, you want that so badly that you're, you've asked for £200,000 for 4% of
49:12the business.
49:14We believe it's a fair valuation.
49:16If you look at our financials, the £750,000 in pre-orders, the trajectory that we're on to deliver millions
49:24of revenue in the coming years.
49:26And more important than that, you've actually got a run rate at the moment, or you're at the moment, you're
49:30selling around £30,000 a week.
49:32So that does underpin some value.
49:35I'm just, I'm just trying to, I always have to feel that I understand the reason somebody is here.
49:41You're two smart guys.
49:43It's a, it's a really good product.
49:46I find it difficult to comprehend some of the things that you say you're missing, because I'm not entirely convinced
49:51you are.
49:52Um, and then you overlay that with quite a racy ask.
49:58And I just, I'm going to sit quietly and see if I can get those slots to work.
50:05Martin and Tom, can I ask a few questions surrounding the product?
50:09Sure.
50:09So I wonder if there is a wider wildlife benefit.
50:13If a cat is denied entry, if it has a rodent in its mouth, does it teach the cat to
50:17not kill rodents?
50:19So we, we can't be sure of that.
50:21But there is some initial data that would suggest that there is.
50:25I have to challenge that.
50:26What's the initial data?
50:27Where from?
50:28So we've seen a steady reduction in the attempts.
50:31You've seen, I'm, I'm looking for data.
50:33So this is field data based on a deployment of 2,000.
50:36Just observation.
50:38Um, yeah.
50:39Well, it's data analysis.
50:39Sorry, I had to challenge it because that's not initial data.
50:41Sure.
50:41It is, it is, it is data analysis based on, I can, there's an anecdote and then there's the data.
50:47The anecdote is my cat who was bringing prey in three or four times, uh, a night, uh, after installing
50:53only cat.
50:54After a few months, that prey, um, activity reduced to effect.
50:58Or they're killing it over there and they're not bringing it in.
51:00So there will be some of that.
51:02They will still continue to eat prey.
51:04But we have seen a number of cases, um, from our customers where by preventing the cat from being able
51:10to bring in the prey, uh, the prey has then managed to escape.
51:13So while we can't guarantee it, it does increase the survival odds of prey if they're not permitted to come
51:19into the house.
51:20Also by sending instant alerts to the owners that the cat has prey, has captured prey and is at the
51:26door.
51:27That allows the owners to act and intervene and to save the prey.
51:33Guys, I really commend you for what you have created.
51:36I think you're both obviously very, very clever.
51:40And I definitely see scope for growth for this and I see success in the future for the two of
51:44you.
51:45I think for me personally, £200,000 for 4% of your business is a big ask.
51:51And for that kind of money, I would need to be very passionate about that particular investment.
51:55And this is just not an area that I feel passion in.
51:58So for that reason, I'm afraid I'm out.
52:00But I wish you the best of luck for the future.
52:02Thank you. Thank you very much.
52:03Completely understand.
52:08Tom Martin.
52:09Yes.
52:10Hi.
52:11Hi.
52:11I take my hat off to you for the technology that you have.
52:14It's well thought through.
52:16You're both really investable as individuals.
52:19But I think you've got a very small opportunity at your price point and your point of entry.
52:25Very small.
52:27This is a product that's going to be not only specific to people that have cats.
52:32It's also specific to people that have got a lot of money.
52:35So I'm going to wish you well on your way and say that I'm not going to invest today and
52:39I'm out.
52:41Sure. Thank you.
52:45Okay, let's, let's, let's, let us begin.
52:51Let's get the party started.
52:52Let's get the party started.
52:53I'm ready to watch this.
52:54Time is money and we've got some cat flaps to sell.
52:59I think you've both done really well.
53:01And I think you've got something really cool.
53:04Deborah asked you earlier why you were coming to the den.
53:06And to me, it was abundantly clear.
53:08I look at this product and much of the game here is both to establish, I think, brand in market.
53:13So that any sort of new market entrance are held out by you being the dominant player, having the furthest
53:19reaching story.
53:21And so it's, it's, it's very much within my wheelhouse.
53:25I spent the last sort of 12, 15 years of my life understanding how to market products and from a
53:31DTC perspective.
53:34Um, so I'm going to make you an offer.
53:38This is going to be a great offer.
53:40This is going to be a really great offer.
53:42No, it's going to be a fantastic offer.
53:44I am really excited.
53:45I think it's a great offer.
53:46I'm excited to hear it.
53:47No, no, no.
53:47What?
53:48We're at the edge of our seats.
53:50It's an unbelievable offer.
53:51You can just wait for this one.
53:53Oh, wow.
53:54Drum roll, please.
53:55Don't take all day.
53:57Yeah.
53:59You've asked for 200,000, for 4%.
54:03I'm going to offer you all of the money for...
54:1112.5% of the business.
54:14Wow.
54:16Yeah.
54:16Thank you very much.
54:21Look, you have got a very good offer.
54:23I mean, I wouldn't have, I mean, to me, um, there's a lot to do here.
54:31Because what you need is to create the reality to make this product accessible at the price point that you're
54:39going to knock the competition out.
54:40Because somebody else is going to come along and make a version of it at a much lower price.
54:46Mm-hmm.
54:48I would definitely bring sauce into the table.
54:53And I would definitely bring that cost down for you.
54:58So, look, this is my offer.
55:01If another dragon is willing to join me, I would give you half the money.
55:08That's 100,000 pounds for 10%.
55:17Guys, so, I think it's a great product.
55:21You guys are clearly very smart.
55:25And I actually think with some tweaking of price that you can bring yourself closer to the main market, then
55:31I think you'd have an exponential change to your market potential size.
55:37Um, I don't think Stephen's offer, I think it's a good offer.
55:43I don't think it's a crazy good offer.
55:46We would agree.
55:47Um, yes.
55:47Because I think that, you know, you clearly have shown that you've got traction now, you know, and it should
55:54carry on up.
55:55So, I am going to make you an offer.
56:00But I'm not going to make this easy.
56:04I'm going to offer you all the money.
56:10And I, too, want 12.5% of the business.
56:16I did say I didn't think, I said to you, I didn't think your offer was unreasonable.
56:21That's what I said.
56:34So, thank you very much for the offers.
56:39We are leaning towards going with Stephen.
56:44But we came here thinking that our 10% is really our upper limit.
56:50And we wouldn't be able to go beyond that, yeah.
56:58So, 10% is the limit?
57:0010% is the limit.
57:03Then you've got a deal.
57:08Well done.
57:09Well done.
57:09Thank you so much.
57:10Well done.
57:10Well done, guys.
57:11Thank you so much.
57:12Well done, guys.
57:13The cats have got the cream.
57:15Well done, guys.
57:18Martin and Tom leave the den with £200,000.
57:23Let's do this.
57:25And the backing of a dragon with the skill set to supercharge their socials.
57:30I'm very familiar with a lot of the work that Stephen has been doing.
57:34Working with him is going to be a pleasure.
57:37Well done.
57:38I told you it was a fantastic offer.
57:40Deborah, how do you feel about that?
57:41Well, if it was anybody else, but you know.
57:44Aww.
57:45Aww.
57:45That's so lovely.
57:47Never seen you like this before.
57:48Don't trust me, I don't mean it.
58:03Next time.
58:04Tiny, good to see you, bro.
58:05I was shook when I knew you were coming because I knew you'd outdress me.
58:08You know, that was my whole MO.
58:09Forget the investments.
58:10I was like, I need to outdress this guy.
58:12Being really candid, I didn't find it that great.
58:15That's not true, Peter.
58:16If your friends and family's money is already kind of down the hole, I'm sure mine will probably end up
58:21there as well.
58:22I would probably drive you guys crazy.
58:24No comment.
58:25No comment.
58:26I think you're a gift to humanity.
58:28I really appreciate it.
58:29Thank you, sir.
58:35Lord of the Flies as you've never seen it before.
58:38A fresh take on the castaway classic watch on BBC iPlayer.
58:42As another struggle for power continues on BBC One, will food prove to be their forte?
58:48The Apprentice continues next.
58:58We'll be back.
Comments