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The Last Word with Lawrence ODonnell - Season 13 - Episode 09
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00:00Bulgarian-in-chief Donald Trump became the first president in history yesterday to use his middle finger publicly to respond
00:08to someone who said something he didn't like.
00:11Donald Trump's fingers first came to public attention when Graydon Carter and Kurt Anderson coined the term short-fingered Bulgarian
00:19to describe Donald Trump in their coverage of him in Spy Magazine in the 1980s.
00:24Graydon Carter had come away from an interview with Donald Trump struck by the unusual tininess of Donald Trump's fingers,
00:33fingers attached to such a large body.
00:37And now, against his much larger body, the finger he raised yesterday looks even smaller.
00:47In a campaign debate during Donald Trump's first presidential campaign in 2016, he became the first presidential candidate in history
00:56to decide to publicly defend the size of his penis after Marco Rubio had publicly made fun of Donald Trump's
01:09fingers.
01:13He's always calling me little Marco. And I don't mean that he's calling me he's like 6'2", which is
01:18why I don't understand why his hands are the size of someone who's 5'2". Have you seen his hands?
01:23They're like this.
01:25And you know what they say about men with small hands?
01:32You can't trust them. You can't trust them.
01:37And at that next debate, Donald Trump defended his appendages this way.
01:45He hit my hands. Nobody has ever hit my hands. I've never heard of this one.
01:48Look at those hands. Are they small hands?
01:52And he referred to my hands. If they're small, something else must be small.
01:57I guarantee you there's no problem. I guarantee you.
02:02Donald Trump had no idea that the problem on display in that moment was his tiny brain and his unrelenting
02:08vulgarity.
02:09And drawing attention to his fingers once again yesterday in giving the finger to an autoworker,
02:15I was struck once again by Graydon Carter's observation of just how tiny that finger is.
02:22That he aimed so bravely at that autoworker far away from him in that Ford factory.
02:28Here is that video of Donald Trump in his role as short-fingered vulgarian-in-chief walking through a factory.
02:52The Washington Post reports T.J. Sabula, a 40-year-old United Autoworkers local 600 line worker at the factory,
03:00told the Post that he was the one who shouted at Trump.
03:05Ford Motor Company, apparently in an effort to lose sales from coast to coast, suspended that worker pending an investigation.
03:12T.J. Sabula told the Post that he had, quote,
03:16Definitely no regrets whatsoever.
03:18Today, the United Autoworkers said in a statement,
03:21The autoworker at the Dearborn truck plant is a proud member of a strong and fighting union, the UAW.
03:27He believes in freedom of speech, a principle we wholeheartedly embrace,
03:30and we stand with our membership in protecting their voice on the job.
03:33The UAW will ensure that our member receives the full protection of all negotiated contract language,
03:39safeguarding his job and his rights.
03:42As a union member, workers should never be subjected to vulgar language or behavior by anyone,
03:47including the president of the United States.
03:50The Washington Post reports a cell phone video captured Trump,
03:54who was visiting the Ford F-150 plant in Dearborn, twice-mouthing F-U,
04:00as he pointed to someone calling up to him from the factory floor below.
04:06Out of frame in the video, a person can be heard yelling,
04:10Pedophile Protector, just before Trump mouthed the insult.
04:18He said he never voted for Trump, but has supported other Republicans.
04:22He estimated that he was roughly 60 feet away from Trump on Tuesday,
04:26and that the president could hear him, quote,
04:28very, very, very clearly.
04:31He said he was specifically referencing Trump's handling of the Epstein matter.
04:36I don't feel as though fate looks upon you often, and when it does,
04:41you better be ready to seize the opportunity, Saboola said.
04:46And today, I think I did that.
04:50And apparently, America agrees.
04:53Two GoFundMe accounts launched to, quote,
04:55support TJ and help him pay some bills,
04:58have raised over $809,000 in less than 24 hours,
05:06at which point TJ Saboola issued a statement saying,
05:10we greatly appreciate the outpouring of support at this time.
05:13We are closing donations to this campaign
05:15and encourage you to look for other causes and organizations to support.
05:19We appreciate every single donation, comment, share, and sign of support.
05:25And so, factory workers around the country have now been alerted
05:28to how easy it is to get a payoff from an encounter with Donald Trump
05:33without going through any of the agony porn star Stormy Daniels
05:37had to go through to get her $130,000 from Trump.
05:40I don't feel as though fate looks upon you often,
05:43and when it does, you better be ready to seize the opportunity.
05:48TJ Saboola seized history.
05:51TJ Saboola provided future historians with a vivid look
05:55at who Donald Trump really is.
05:58TJ Saboola's contribution to history is a valuable reveal to future historians
06:03about just how small a man Donald Trump is,
06:07how weak he is, how uncontrollable his vulgarity is.
06:11Presidents throughout history have been yelled at, shot at.
06:14They've been called murderers and war criminals to their faces.
06:18They've had their sleep disrupted by protesters outside the White House at night.
06:23They've had shoes thrown at them.
06:37And not one of those presidents gave anyone the finger.
06:43When an assassin's bullet missed Franklin Roosevelt and hit the mayor who was beside him,
06:47he did not turn and give the finger to anyone.
06:49George W. Bush ably ducked those shoes and never considered giving the finger to anyone.
06:54No president would allow the presidency to sink that low until Donald Trump.
07:00And in giving that little finger yesterday,
07:03Donald Trump created a national hero who takes his place in history now
07:07with more dignity than Donald Trump has ever mustered.
07:10When Donald Trump walks by,
07:12everyone in America has a First Amendment right to say pedophile protector.
07:16When Donald Trump walks by,
07:18everyone in America has a right to say whatever they want.
07:21And only Donald Trump among our presidents
07:24could decide to make a factory worker who criticizes him world famous
07:29and a bit richer by Donald Trump indulging his childish anger
07:37and delivering a childish public performance of Trumpian vulgarity.
07:45Today, a federal judge in the case of Minnesota versus Kristi Noem
07:49gave the federal government a Monday deadline
07:52for submitting a written response to the states of Minnesota's lawsuit
07:56accusing the Trump administration of conducting an illegal federal invasion of Minnesota.
08:01That sort of quick response and short deadline from a federal judge
08:04indicates that the judge is taking the case that Minnesota has brought
08:08against Kristi Noem and the Trump administration very seriously,
08:12as is everyone else living in Minnesota.
08:14Today, the Minnesota Star Tribune editorial is titled
08:17Minnesota is under siege.
08:19This cannot stand.
08:20The editorial says Minnesota has endured unrest before.
08:23What the state is now experiencing looks and feels different.
08:27Battalions of armed federal agents are moving through neighborhoods,
08:30transit hubs, malls and parking lots,
08:32and staging near churches, mosques and schools.
08:35Strangers with guns have metastasized in spaces
08:38where daily life should be routine and safe.
08:40It feels like a military occupation.
08:42Heavily armed and masked government agents
08:44are prone to confront any American they encounter in the street,
08:48but especially people of certain colors, accents or styles of dress.
08:52The encounters are often violent.
08:54The federal agents operating under the insignia of Immigration and Customs Enforcement
08:59or the Department of Homeland Security functioning largely anonymously
09:03have disrupted the life of large swaths of a state.
09:08The occupation of Minnesota by ICE cannot stand.
09:12The president of the Minneapolis City Council, Elliot Payne,
09:15was shoved by an ICE agent in this video while documenting ICE's actions.
09:21Here is what Elliot Payne said today.
09:26It feels like a military occupation.
09:29It feels like we're under assault by our federal government.
09:33We're seeing people walking around with assault rifles and full military gear,
09:39driving around in armored vehicles and harassing U.S. citizens.
09:46There's a lot of direct assault, and particularly how they're roughing up U.S. citizens
09:53who are just legal observers.
09:55They're there out with their cameras, and they will go and confront them.
09:58They will tackle them.
09:59One of my constituents had their hand broken as they were apprehended,
10:04and then they will just dump people off without medical care
10:09after essentially torturing them.
10:12And this is the most un-American thing I could imagine.
10:16The New York Times reports,
10:18quote,
10:18Local concerns over the federal government grew on Tuesday
10:21when six federal prosecutors in Minnesota resigned
10:23over the Justice Department's push to investigate the widow of Renee Good
10:28and questions over whether the shooter would be investigated.
10:32Without enough federal prosecutors in Minnesota,
10:35federal agents might not be able to bring federal prosecutions in Minnesota.
10:39Now, CNN reports that the Pentagon is trying to round up military lawyers to send to Minnesota.
10:44It is extremely unlikely that military lawyers will have enough previous experience as federal prosecutors.
10:50Donald Trump and the section of his brain called Stephen Miller
10:55believe that America wants a violent crackdown on Americans,
10:58but polls prove they are wrong.
11:01A new CNN poll shows that only 26 percent of Americans say the killing of Renee Good last week
11:07by ICE agent Jonathan Ross was an appropriate use of force.
11:11Only 26 percent think what Donald Trump and James David Vance are telling them to think about that killing.
11:18A substantial majority thinks the killing of Renee Good was an inappropriate use of force.
11:25Fifty-six percent of Americans say that Jonathan Ross's decision to shoot and kill Renee Good was an inappropriate use
11:33of force.
11:34And those 56 percent of Americans are completely right, of course.
11:39Those 56 percent of Americans believe what they see with their own eyes,
11:43not what Donald Trump and J.D. Vance tell them to see.
11:47Fifty-one percent say that the killing of Renee Good reflects bigger problems with the way that ICE is operating.
11:54A majority of Americans say that ICE enforcement actions are making the country less safe.
12:01Fifty-one percent say that ICE enforcement actions are making cities less safe.
12:05Only 31 percent think that ICE enforcement actions are making cities safer, as Donald Trump insists.
12:13And so Donald Trump and Stephen Miller, with congressional elections approaching,
12:17are appealing to 26 percent of voters when they defend the killing of Renee Good.
12:24Donald Trump, Stephen Miller, and the Republicans have 31 percent support in America for the ICE invasion of our cities.
12:33The delusional 79-year-old man in the White House who now believes he is the acting president of Venezuela
12:39does not have the support of his own country for the invasion of Venezuela,
12:45and he does not have the support of this country for his invasion of Minneapolis or any other American city.
12:54Joining us now, leading off our discussion tonight, is Senator Amy Klobuchar of Minnesota.
12:58She is the member of the Senate Committee on the Judiciary and, of course, the Commerce Committee.
13:04Senator Klobuchar, you have seen the situation in Minneapolis tonight.
13:09We're going to bring any live updates necessary for what might be happening there on the streets of Minneapolis tonight.
13:16What is your assessment of the situation there now?
13:20Well, the reports are just coming, but I've talked to some people on the ground, people in Minnesota,
13:26and it appears that this involves ICE and there was a shooting of someone.
13:32And then there also was injury to the ICE officer.
13:37And then there was a melee, of course, in the streets.
13:41This doesn't surprise me because we are inundated with these ICE agents where, you know,
13:47people should stay away from that scene right now.
13:50But the other side of this, Lawrence, is that they have sent 3,000 ICE agents at the last count.
13:56And our sworn officers in Minneapolis and St. Paul who are valiantly trying to do their jobs,
14:02there's only 1,100 of them.
14:04So that is what's going on.
14:06They are literally going to shopping malls.
14:08I met with some school superintendents today from the suburbs and school principals.
14:13They're also going to the close in and further out suburbs, into their parking lots, into arresting
14:22students.
14:23As was just pointed out, people who are legal, people with passports, people who are wrestled
14:28down and yelling, I am a U.S. citizen.
14:31So this is truly an assault on our state.
14:34And when you see these people standing up in Menards parking lots and targets, what's
14:41incredible about this is these aren't protests that have any notice that this is going to
14:45happen.
14:46These are people just standing up, filming, blowing whistles and calling out what's happening
14:52because people just can't tolerate that you're going to treat people in our state.
14:57It's always had a big heart and it's been through so much this year with the assassination
15:03of Melissa and Mark Hortman and the killing of those little sweet kids in the church to
15:09then to have ICE come in like that.
15:11It's a total outrage.
15:13Senator, you saw the resignation yesterday, unprecedented resignation in the U.S.
15:19Attorney's Office in Minnesota, about six of the key prosecutors there who really make
15:26that office run.
15:27How does that change things?
15:30Well, in a very bad way.
15:32This office is a treasurer.
15:33It's gotten national justice awards in the past.
15:37One of the attorneys, Melinda Williams, was working and worked on this major national human
15:43trafficking case.
15:44Joe Thompson, who is leading the fraud prosecutions that are righteous prosecutions where taxpayer
15:50money has been ripped off and charged and convicted a number of people with many other
15:56cases to go, and he literally had to resign.
16:00And I spoke to him yesterday.
16:02I did not ask him the details of this resignation, but the reports are that these prosecutors who
16:08took an oath to protect the public, to make the public safe, like you've seen in other jurisdictions,
16:14like in New York with Danielle Sassoon and Hagan Scott, and they were asked to do something
16:20they weren't going to do.
16:21And they then said, no, that's it.
16:24And we're leaving after years of service, public service to our state.
16:29Senator, as we go forward, when you said, by the way, that there are more federal agents
16:36now in Minneapolis and St. Paul than the entire local police departments.
16:42Actually, 10 local police departments, Lawrence, Minneapolis and St. Paul, and then some surrounding
16:47suburbs.
16:48Yes.
16:49Yeah.
16:49And that's not to say that Minneapolis and St. Paul did not have enough law enforcement
16:53there to keep the city orderly as it was before ICE arrived.
16:59Every disorderly moment that has occurred has occurred since ICE arrived in the city.
17:04Well, and the police chief, Chief O'Hara, very well respected.
17:07Remember, it's his force that when the kids were shot in the school, was officer was there
17:13in three minutes and they had everyone, 20 some people on ambulances in about 18 minutes.
17:20That's that police officer.
17:22That's those police officers.
17:23So he asked ICE not to come in.
17:26And again, assistance with fraud cases.
17:28Good.
17:29Those need to be prosecuted.
17:30But he asked them not to come in on the streets and instead in defiance of the police chief
17:36and law enforcement, they have sent in a battalion and they keep sending more and more and more.
17:42And you think about the money, two million just in overtime for Minneapolis police,
17:47but hundreds of thousands a day for this when they could be funding our government.
17:53And this came out of the big, beautiful betrayal of a bill.
17:56The government could be funding local police, could be funding efforts to protect citizens
18:01and go after burglars and criminals.
18:05But instead, what are they doing?
18:07They are literally flooding the streets of Minneapolis, St. Paul and a number of other
18:11cities around there.
18:14It's hard to know exactly what's happening on the street there now.
18:18We did see what appeared to be some flame in certain spots.
18:22There were reports earlier that that officials were possibly using flashbang devices as a crowd
18:30control or and so we're not exactly clear what it is we're seeing down there.
18:36Not a lot of people.
18:36Well, we are.
18:37I mean, they are.
18:38I talked to the governor and people are asking people to not go to that area just because
18:43they're trying to.
18:44One of the things that our citizens have done and we keep telling them is don't take the
18:48bait.
18:49Don't take the bait when Donald Trump tweets out retribution.
18:54Don't do it.
18:55Just go about your lives and help your neighbors and be there.
19:00And if you're out there, film things.
19:02But just do not go to that scene right now.
19:05Well, I think that as far as we can tell, the thing that we don't see in that image from
19:10this high altitude shot that we have right now is people.
19:14There are very, very few people on that street.
19:16So that message, Senator, seems to be getting through.
19:19Right.
19:20It's also very cold there tonight.
19:22So, you know, people would get really cold.
19:25Senator Amy Klobuchar, thank you very much for joining us tonight.
19:28We really appreciate it.
19:29Thanks, Lawrence.
19:30Thanks for your good work.
19:32Coming up, we will continue to not talk about Greenland the way Donald Trump wants us to,
19:38because we will talk about the people Donald Trump wants us to forget, the people who now
19:44have no health insurance, thanks to Donald Trump.
19:48That's next with Congressman Brendan Boyle.
19:54Ted Cruz was 10 years ahead of the curve on exactly one thing.
19:59Yes, that Ted Cruz.
20:01Here is presidential candidate Ted Cruz 10 years ago in 2016 running against crazy Donald
20:08Trump.
20:11I don't know anyone who would be comfortable with someone who behaves this way having his
20:17finger on the button.
20:18I mean, we're liable to wake up one morning and Donald, if he were president, would have
20:22nuked Denmark.
20:24The Danish foreign minister actually had to explain to Donald Trump's vice president and
20:29Donald Trump's secretary of state today that, no, the United States of America cannot have
20:34Greenland.
20:35And that's all you need to know about the Greenland story, which is nothing but a Trump diversion.
20:40It's the story Donald Trump wants you to pay attention to.
20:43It's the story about something that will never, ever happen.
20:47Donald Trump will not buy Greenland.
20:49Donald Trump will not invade Greenland.
20:51Nothing is going to change in Greenland.
20:53If you are trying to decide what to pay attention to and what to ignore in the age of Trump,
20:59ignore the Greenland stuff.
21:02That's what Donald Trump wants you to be talking about tonight, instead of the fact that more
21:08than two million people are losing their health insurance in this country right now.
21:14The enrollment window for Obamacare health insurance is closing now for the rest of the year until
21:22late November.
21:23And the enrollment so far this year is down by over a million people who cannot afford health
21:30insurance now that Donald Trump and Republicans have dramatically raised the cost of health
21:35insurance obtained through the Affordable Care Act.
21:37That's real.
21:39That happened.
21:41Donald Trump did that.
21:42He didn't threaten it.
21:44He did it.
21:45He didn't talk about it the way he talks about Greenland.
21:48He just did it.
21:50He and the Republicans in Congress did it.
21:52Donald Trump said he would come up with an even better plan than the Affordable Care Act,
21:57and it would be written into law by the Republican Congress before people lost their Affordable
22:02Care Act health insurance.
22:03But Donald Trump and the Republicans did nothing for those people.
22:07Donald Trump has done everything he possibly can to divert attention from those people by invading
22:13Venezuela, invading Minnesota, and pretending to be thinking about invading Greenland.
22:19Joining us now, Democratic Congressman Brendan Boyle of Pennsylvania.
22:22He's the top Democrat on the House Budget Committee and a member of the House Ways and Means Committee.
22:27Congressman Boyle, the hour has arrived.
22:30The damage has been done.
22:31And people now have lost that health insurance and have to somehow struggle through this year
22:37without it.
22:39Yeah, that's exactly right.
22:40And, of course, we knew this was coming because six months ago, when Donald Trump and congressional
22:47Republicans passed their big so-called beautiful bill, the centerpiece of that was over $5 trillion
22:55worth of tax cuts for billionaires, paid for by stripping away the health care of millions
23:01of Americans.
23:02These are the first, but only the first, of those scheduled cuts.
23:07Let's not forget there are more cuts to come, more reforms to Obamacare, as they call them,
23:13but actually cuts to come.
23:15And let's not forget the worst part of all, at the end of this year, another 10 million
23:20Americans will lose their health care, who currently have it through Medicaid.
23:25Talk about the more to come part of this.
23:29Yeah, so in the bill that became law that basically Trump's big tax cuts for billionaires, in order
23:35to pay for at least a part of that, you saw over $1 trillion worth of health care cut.
23:41They did that in a variety of ways, not extending the tax credits to Obamacare, making two other
23:47changes that will also now take effect.
23:50Those are the things that are coming down the pike that we're working day and night to attempt
23:55to address.
23:56We passed a reform that would address this last week in the House that would essentially
24:02extend the status quo, but that bill right now is languishing in the Senate as we sit
24:08here this evening.
24:10So with a discharge petition, I would say miraculously, because that used to never happen, but now
24:16it's almost become routine that you can get discharge petitions in the House.
24:20You managed to get House Republicans, enough House Republicans, to vote for the Democratic
24:27position.
24:28You got them to vote for exactly what you were fighting for in the government shutdown, and
24:35that is a three-year extension of this.
24:39Those Republicans who were voting against what they had already voted for themselves, they
24:45seem to realize just how much trouble they're in.
24:50Yeah, that's exactly right.
24:51First, on the discharge petition, it is pretty remarkable.
24:54For the first 25 years of this century, a discharge petition had only worked twice.
24:59It has now worked three times in the last month and a half.
25:02So it shows you that actually House Democrats from the minority are governing more than the
25:08actual House majority under Speaker Johnson.
25:11But as far as the 17 House Republicans who voted with us for a clean three-year extension
25:18of the Obamacare credits, they really are amazing.
25:21They are right now bragging to their constituents back home that how they're fighting to save
25:25health care.
25:26The reason why we're in this position is because that same crowd six months ago voted for these
25:31health care cuts in the first place.
25:34Yeah, and as you say, so that bill has gone to the Senate.
25:38It is much more difficult for Chuck Schumer and the minority there to somehow maneuver that
25:43bill into a position to get a vote on that bill.
25:48But that would be the next stage in this legislation.
25:53That's exactly right.
25:54And, you know, the math is just a lot easier in the House as well as the rules.
25:58I mean, we, the House Democrats, are only three seats away from the majority ourselves.
26:03We knew we were going to have enough Republicans to join us once we got the four to sign the
26:08discharge petition.
26:09Over in the Senate, they only start off at 47 Senate Democrats.
26:13And if that weren't bad enough, then over there, of course, because of the filibuster,
26:18the threshold is not 51, it's 60, meaning they need at least 13 Senate Republicans to join
26:26them.
26:27Right now, I think they have about no more than half of that.
26:30And we saw what happened on a war powers vote where the Republicans who voted for it have
26:38now voted, have now flipped and voted against it so that they, because Donald Trump called
26:44them up and said, you can't do that.
26:46And then they had just immediately flipped.
26:47We saw that tonight so that they were able to defeat the Democrats move in the Senate.
26:53That's that's the way the Senate works now under apparently Donald Trump control of the
26:58Senate.
26:59Yeah.
27:00Real spines of steel.
27:02They're more like spines made of jello.
27:04You know, let's not forget, not that long ago, Steve Bannon said he loved the way Congress
27:09was behaving because it was acting like the Russian Duma, where basically whatever the
27:14leader says goes and the Duma rubber stamps what Putin wants.
27:18That's the mega Trump vision for Congress.
27:22The sad and pathetic thing is Republican leaders in the House and Senate are actually carrying
27:28that out and stripping away what is designed by the Constitution to be a co-equal branch of
27:36government.
27:37Congressman Brendan Boyle, thank you very much for joining us tonight.
27:42Coming up, Donald Trump has been slipping even deeper into dementia about his illegal and
27:48unconstitutional tariffs.
27:50Harvard economics professor Jason Furman joins us next.
27:56Donald Trump's unconstitutional and illegal tariffs are the best thing that ever happened
28:02to China in international trade.
28:05The tariffs that were supposed to kill China's international trade have helped China have its
28:11best year ever in international trade with a trade surplus of $1.2 trillion in 2025, which
28:21is the largest trade surplus in the history of the world.
28:27Thank you, Donald Trump.
28:29The New York Times reports the enormous trade surplus for the full year came despite efforts
28:35by President Trump to use tariffs to contain China's factories.
28:38The tariffs reduced China's trade surplus with the United States by 22% last year, but Chinese
28:45factories increased sales to other regions, in many cases bypassing American tariffs, by
28:51shipping goods to the United States through Southeast Asia and elsewhere.
28:56Yesterday, in an incoherent speech to the Detroit Economic Club, the audience of rich people,
29:01all of whom are smarter than Donald Trump, at least, heard him say this.
29:08You know, China's are one of our biggest taxpayers right now.
29:14China, would you ever believe you'd hear that?
29:16And they've been great.
29:19And so the question once again is, is that dementia or is that just Trump?
29:25China has never paid an American tax and never will.
29:29China has never paid a Trump tariff and never will.
29:31When Chinese goods arrive in this country now, along with goods from anywhere else in the
29:36country, in the world, a Trump tariff is imposed on those goods when they arrive inside the
29:44United States.
29:46Those tariffs are sales taxes paid inside the United States at the port of entry by American
29:54taxpayers, only every penny of tariff revenue that has entered the Treasury during Donald Trump's
30:03presidency has been paid by an American.
30:06And that's true of every penny in tariffs that has been raised by the Treasury in the history of tariffs.
30:14That's how they work.
30:15On Sunday, President Obama's chair of the Council of Economic Advisers, Jason Furman, wrote,
30:21some countries that have prosecuted or threatened to prosecute central bankers for the purpose
30:27of political intimidation or punishment for monetary policy decisions, Argentina, Russia,
30:33Turkey, Venezuela, and Zimbabwe.
30:37And now, of course, thanks to Donald Trump, the United States of America.
30:43Joining us now is Jason Furman, former chair of the Council of Economic Advisers for President Obama.
30:49He is now a professor at Harvard University.
30:52Professor Furman, I want to begin with what you said about the Fed and what it could mean
30:58if the United States Supreme Court rules that the president of the United States can indeed,
31:05contrary to every previous understanding of this, fire members of the Federal Reserve at will.
31:13Yeah, the Federal Reserve makes its decisions with a committee of 12 people.
31:18This year, the president is going to get to nominate, and the Senate can choose whether or not to
31:24confirm someone to be chair. But that is only one of 12 votes. The case the Supreme Court is
31:30hearing next week is about whether President Trump can fire Lisa Cook. If he can fire Lisa Cook as
31:36governor, he can probably fire a whole lot of other people, and then all of a sudden take over not
31:42just one chair out of 12, but get the majority of those 12 votes. And then you don't have an
31:49independent
31:50Fed. You have Donald Trump making all those decisions himself.
31:54And what would that mean to monetary policy in this country going forward, if the president can
32:02fire and hire, as it were, members of the Fed at will?
32:07It would mean a lot of inflation. It would mean a lot of instability. And ironically, it would actually
32:14mean higher mortgage interest rates, because the Federal Reserve controls what's called the Fed funds rate.
32:20But no one watching the show, unless you're a bank, can borrow at the Fed funds rate. You borrow at
32:26the
32:26mortgage rate. And when people are more nervous, there's more risk, there's more inflation, that would
32:31actually drive mortgage rates up.
32:35On the Trump tariffs and China's surge in trade around the world, it seems to have worked very much
32:44to China's benefit. In many ways, adding more energy on the Chinese side in opening up other markets for
32:52their goods as they kept pumping out exports.
32:56Yeah, it's only a slight oversimplification to say that trade, there's two separate issues.
33:02One is everyone in the world except China. And for the most part, they're playing by the rules.
33:08We want to trade with them. We want to work with them. And then there's China, which is very much
33:13of a different case. The issue with China is they have an enormous amount of leverage, probably even
33:19more leverage over the United States than the United States has with China. So if you want to deal with
33:24China, you need to work together with other countries around the world. And it's a lot harder to get a
33:31coalition to address the issues that China raises when we're trying to wage trade wars with all those
33:38other countries. So basically, we should stop the trade wars with every country in the world,
33:43get them all together, and collectively focus on China. That's the only way we could deal with it.
33:49And that was the approach in the Obama administration. That is exactly strategically what
33:55you were working toward. It was what Joe Biden was trying to work toward.
33:59Yeah, absolutely. And China is a very tricky issue. And I wish the United States were so powerful that we
34:06could deal with it all on our own. Our economy is a little bit bigger than China, but they're such
34:12an
34:12export powerhouse. They're so willing to take some really strong steps, like denying us rare earths and
34:19certain critical things, that we really need allies if we want to work and make progress there.
34:26Professor Jason Foreman, thank you very much for joining us tonight.
34:30Thanks for having me.
34:31Coming up, Donald Trump's Department of Justice is now harassing more members of Congress who dared to tell the
34:38members of the United States military that they don't have to follow illegal orders. That subject is next with
34:45Lieutenant General Mark Hurtling.
34:50Donald Trump's Justice Department is investigating members of Congress who appeared in this video.
34:58Our laws are clear. You can refuse illegal orders.
35:02You can refuse illegal orders.
35:04You must refuse illegal orders.
35:07No one has to carry out orders that violate the law.
35:11Military and intelligence service veterans now serving in Congress participated in a video last
35:16year reminding members of the military of something they have already been taught.
35:22You do not have to follow illegal orders.
35:26Donald Trump's Secretary of Defense is trying to reduce Senator Mark Kelly's military pension because
35:30he participated in that video. And Donald Trump's Justice Department is now harassing
35:34some of those members of Congress.
35:39Recently, I joined five other members of Congress, all of us veterans of the U.S. military,
35:44to remind our service members that they have to uphold their oath to the Constitution and follow
35:49the law. Well, Donald Trump didn't like that. He called for us to be arrested, tried for treason
35:55and executed. And then he sent the FBI to try to threaten and intimidate us. And now he's using his
36:01political cronies in the Department of Justice to continue to threaten and intimidate us. But he's picked
36:06the wrong people. We took an oath to the Constitution, a lifetime oath when we joined the military. And again,
36:12as
36:12members of Congress, we are not going to back away.
36:16In November, six of us with service and veteran background filmed a video restating the uniform
36:23code of military justice, saying that those in the military have a responsibility to reject illegal
36:28orders. In response, the president called for us to be investigated, arrested, and ultimately hanged.
36:36He ended up tweeting over a dozen times about that. And yesterday, in Michigan, falsely said that I stole my
36:442024 election. In response to the president's tweets, the threats went through the roof. We had over a thousand
36:50threats come in. Over a hundred were credible and are being investigated. I went on 24-7 security from Capitol
36:58Police. I had a bomb threat at my house. My parents were swatted in the middle of the night. And
37:05my siblings had
37:06cop cars placed in their driveways. And now he's using his political appointees at the FBI and the
37:13Department of Justice to follow through with his threats. And of course, nothing will actually come
37:20of these phony investigations because it is not against the law to say that no one in the American
37:26military has to follow an illegal order. I will not be criminally investigated for having just said that.
37:34And it's not the first time I've said it. And it is a purely Trumpian waste of Justice Department
37:40resources to pretend that there is anything to investigate here. Joining us now is Lieutenant
37:47General Mark Hurtling, retired commander of the U.S. Army in Europe. General, one of the things I'm
37:52wondering about is what's the effect at West Point? What's the effect at the Air Force Academy?
37:57What's the effect at Annapolis? What's the effect in basic training? Where this principle has been
38:03taught forever. It's not only taught, Lawrence, it's repeated throughout a career. And what I was
38:11thinking as you were just going through the intro is if these six lawmakers can be intimidated,
38:16threatened and harassed for saying something that is repeated multiple times by drill sergeants in
38:23basic training by instructors, as you said, in ROTC or at West Point, and by commanders at every level
38:31as part of legal training every year or even when they're deploying. This case is going to grow up with
38:37a whole lot of other people being charged for speaking the truth of saying, do not follow unlawful
38:44orders. It is a tenant of training, as you just mentioned. And it's repeated throughout a military
38:50soldier's or any military member's career. But is it possible now that a professor at West Point
38:58would think twice before saying this now that the professor might know that that could bring down
39:07the Justice Department investigating you? Well, I don't believe so. And I certainly am not
39:12concerned about saying don't follow illegal orders if anyone's listening to this broadcast. But the point
39:19becomes, Lawrence, I think when telling the truth about the law is grounds for censure, then I would
39:26suggest the problem isn't with the people who spoke that. It's with those who fear what the law requires,
39:32because the law requires in many instances that you don't follow illegal or unlawful orders from the
39:40small things to the big things. I mean, imagine a private being told, hey, go shoot that prisoner,
39:46or even a private being told, go steal a can of grease from second platoon. Those are illegal orders.
39:52And the private can say, based on his judgment, hey, sergeant or hey, lieutenant, I'm not going to do
39:58that. That's not the right thing to do. That's what we train soldiers in the profession of arms to
40:04consider when they're given orders of all kinds. And I am sure we will be seeing in the armed services
40:10committee the next time anyone from the Joint Chiefs of Staff, any military officer is testifying
40:17to the House or Senate Armed Services Committee. I'm sure there is a Democrat on one of those
40:24committees who will be asking this very question and getting that general or that admiral to say
40:31out loud exactly what Donald Trump doesn't want them to say, which is that you should not follow
40:37an illegal order. It's not a hard question to answer. Everyone knows it. And truthfully,
40:45I don't understand what is going on. It's being used as a judicial harassment or intimidation
40:52when it's nothing of the sort and nothing is going to come of it. Captain Kelly, Senator Kelly,
40:59is probably the first one to be attacked because he does have the potential for being pulled back out
41:05of retirement. But the other lawmakers that are now doing it being investigated by the FBI just is an
41:12incredible waste of time and just insane, in my view. General, what do you think is the overall effect
41:23of this kind of thing on the military generally? They're all watching this news. They're all seeing this.
41:31Yeah, it's chilling, Lawrence. I know because I speak to both retired and active duty officers
41:38and soldiers. I just spoke to a retired sergeant major today by phone, and they are staying quiet.
41:45And if there's only one thing worse than speaking up and concluding what you shouldn't be doing,
41:53it's by saying nothing at all. That's the effect that this has had, and it's extremely dangerous.
41:59General Mark Hurtling, always an honor to have you join us. Thank you very much for joining us.
42:03Thank you, Lawrence. We'll be right back.
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