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The Last Word with Lawrence ODonnell - Season 13 - Episode 21
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00:00All right, today, the Trump Justice Department released more than three million pages of documents from the Epstein files,
00:07which seems like a lot of documents, but it's reportedly only half of what the Justice Department actually has.
00:14Donald Trump and the Department of Justice just made it clear right now that they intend to withhold approximately 50
00:25percent or half of the Epstein files.
00:30While claiming to have fully complied with the law.
00:34This is outrageous and incredibly concerning.
00:39Now, the Oversight Committee subpoena, which we have had in place now since the summer,
00:45had directed the Attorney General Pam Bondi and the Department of Justice to release all the files to our committee.
00:54Of course, while also protecting our survivors.
00:57They are now in violation of that law.
01:03Now, the two lawmakers who worked tirelessly with survivors to pass that Epstein files transparency act,
01:10the Democrat Ro Khanna and the Republican Thomas Massey sent this letter to Todd Blanche tonight,
01:15the Deputy Attorney General, with demands for the specific material that they say the Trump DOJ has refused to release.
01:22Quote, as the bipartisan lead sponsors of the Epstein Files Transparency Act,
01:27we write to formally request access to unredacted documents of the Jeffrey Epstein files,
01:33given ongoing reported concerns regarding the scope and consistency of redactions in the documents released to date.
01:40We respectfully request a meeting to review the unredacted records.
01:45In particular, we seek access to the following categories of materials.
01:50First, hundreds of thousands of pages of emails and other documents recovered from Jeffrey Epstein's email account
01:57during the 2018 and 2019 investigations into Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell.
02:03Secondly, victim interview statements from the initial Florida investigation and subsequent investigations in New York.
02:09We understand that the department possesses FBI Form 302 reports documenting these interviews.
02:17However, the materials released to date in this category consist largely of pages that are fully redacted,
02:24providing no meaningful information for oversight or public accountability.
02:28Third, the 53-page draft indictment and the 82-page prosecution memorandum prepared during the 2007 Florida investigation.
02:37These documents are essential to understanding the government's knowledge of Epstein's criminal conduct
02:42and the circumstances surrounding the non-prosecution agreement and immunity that he received.
02:49End quote.
02:49All right, joining us now to make sense of this all is MSNOW senior legal reporter Lisa Rubin.
02:53Lisa, I want to start by saying that the attorney general, formerly Trump's lawyer, Todd Blanche, says you've got everything.
03:00All you don't have is stuff that was redacted because of protection of the identity of victims.
03:07Yes, and he also said earlier today that one of the things that the Department of Justice had withheld entirely
03:13were things that were had privileges attached to them.
03:17Things including attorney-client privilege, work product protection and something known as deliberative process privilege.
03:24Put in layman's terms, that means internal deliberations of the Department of Justice.
03:28He also said during a point in his press conference that in addition to the 3 million documents that they
03:33dumped on us today,
03:34oh, guess what, there are another 3 million of them that they didn't produce.
03:37Right.
03:37So not everything that they withheld was for the privacy and safety of victims.
03:42In fact, we know that, Ali, because one of the things that characterizes their production today
03:46is a sort of rampant sloppiness with respect to actually protecting that information.
03:52And to that end, if I can, I'd like to read a statement that I received tonight from the victim's
03:56lawyer.
03:56I noticed today I counted almost 20 victims' names that I personally recognized just in the cursory review that I've
04:03done so far.
04:04I also saw the driver's license of a particular victim that I recognized with her face and her name fully
04:13visible.
04:13That is contrary to the promises that Deputy Attorney General Blanche made today.
04:17So I contacted a lawyer and I asked what her thoughts were on this.
04:21And this is the statement I got from Brittany Henderson, who is the partner of Brad Edwards.
04:25Together, they represent quite a large assortment of Epstein survivors.
04:28She wrote,
04:29What the Department of Justice has done today is devastating and disgusting.
04:34Through this final release of documents, the department has flagrantly violated the trust, privacy,
04:39and the rights of more victims than perhaps ever before.
04:42Wow.
04:43The department has been in possession of a comprehensive list of victims of Jeffrey Epstein for months.
04:48In that time, they have spoken directly with several terrified women who they promised to protect
04:54through a fulsome redaction process.
04:56Their complete and utter failure to do so is heartbreaking.
05:00There are not words to express the disappointment.
05:02And again, that's a statement attributable to Brittany Henderson, one of the lawyers who represents
05:06some of the most outspoken Epstein survivors who have advocated for not only the passage of the Epstein Files Transparency
05:14Act,
05:14but have repeatedly pressed for compliance with the act, compliance that we really didn't see today in a variety of
05:20ways.
05:20And by the way, this idea of protecting the survivors is important across the law as a legal principle.
05:28But in this particular case, these are survivors who are saying that there are some remarkably wealthy
05:35and powerful people who might be implicated in this thing.
05:38For them to inadvertently have their names, some of them have gone public,
05:42but for them to willy-nilly have their names out there, it's a substantial threat.
05:47It's not an abstraction.
05:49No, it's not an abstraction at all.
05:52And I read today, you read from that letter from Congressman Kanna and Massey,
05:56where they are asking for the department to produce what are called FBI 302s.
06:01That is the form that the FBI types up victim statements into.
06:06And they are right.
06:07There aren't a lot of them there.
06:08But which ones are there?
06:09I saw one today where at the very end of it, this was from a 2021 interview of a survivor.
06:16The last thing she said was, Ghislaine Maxwell is sociopathic, and I fear for myself if she is not convicted.
06:23So there are legitimate fears on behalf of many of these survivors, not just about the people we do know
06:30about,
06:31but with respect to others that we don't as well.
06:34Help me out with the stuff that we've heard from Robert Garcia and from Thomas Massey and from Ro Khanna
06:38about what's not there.
06:39How do they know what's not there?
06:42Well, I think there are ways to search this, right?
06:45So DOJ was compelled by law not only to produce to the public, but to do so in a way
06:50that was text-searchable to all of us.
06:52So you can enter lots of words in this search and come up with documents.
06:57If you're looking, for example, for that prosecution memo or that draft indictment,
07:01two of the things that are most important to Massey and Khanna, and frankly, to me as well,
07:05you can see whether they are there if they come up in a search.
07:09One of the ways also that I knew that they were so sloppy with their redactions is because I looked
07:14for the names of particular victims, and I found them.
07:17So it's not that we've done a thorough boil-the-ocean review of the three million pages we've seen so
07:22far,
07:23but that there are ways of searching these documents.
07:26And, of course, there are lots of people looking at them.
07:28If you look at Twitter today, the assortment of various media outlets that are looking at these
07:34and collectively sort of finding bits and pieces here and there,
07:38you can compose sort of an aggregate picture, at least initially,
07:42of what people consider to be the hottest documents and also the most egregious absences.
07:48So where are we now?
07:50Because Todd Blanche has basically said, he stated reasons why,
07:53but he said, we've fulfilled our requirements under the Transparency Act.
07:59Ro Khanna, Thomas Massey, Robert Garcia say otherwise.
08:02What happens now?
08:03We saw the letter that Ro Khanna and Thomas Massey have written to Todd Blanche,
08:07but what happens here?
08:08Because Todd Blanche has said, he wasn't equivocating about this.
08:11He said, you've largely got what you're going to get.
08:14Well, there are two things.
08:16One is, they haven't gotten everything that they're entitled to,
08:18because under the law, they have a legal obligation,
08:21they mean the Department of Justice, to produce a report within 15 days to Congress
08:26that talks about the categories of documents that have been withheld,
08:29the categories of redactions, the reasons they've redacted documents,
08:33and they're also supposed to provide a list of all, like, significant people that appear in it,
08:39including government officials.
08:40So that information still needs to be delivered to Congress.
08:43With respect to what comes next, though,
08:46I think what you're driving at is, what remedy is there for Congress,
08:49to the extent that there has been a lack of compliance here?
08:52And here's where I wish that Robert Garcia and Ro Khanna were with us right now,
08:57because I put that question to them.
08:58Where I read the law, I don't see a legal remedy for Congress to sue, for example,
09:04for better compliance or enforcement with the Epstein Act.
09:07So notwithstanding the fact that Congress overwhelmingly voted for this Epstein Act,
09:11the power of a bipartisan, unified Congress isn't enough to overcome the Department of Justice
09:18not doing what you evaluate they're supposed to have been doing?
09:21Well, I mean, I think one of the questions is,
09:23does Congress want to hold anybody in contempt for failure to comply?
09:28They could refer somebody to, guess what,
09:30the same Department of Justice that they're accusing of noncompliance.
09:33But from a legal perspective, let's say they wanted to bring a lawsuit.
09:36One of the challenges is this really fundamental legal concept called standing.
09:39It's who has the ability to sue.
09:42And over and over again, courts have found that individual members of Congress,
09:46even sometimes whole committees, don't have the right to stand in the shoes of the entire Congress
09:51to sue to vindicate rights that belong to them as an institution.
09:55So unless the Speaker of the House and the Majority Leader of the Senate
10:00want to convene some sort of resolution where both bodies vote to sue,
10:05they're likely would not be standing, which is like one of the most elemental things
10:10you need to sustain a lawsuit in the first place.
10:13I am much smarter about this.
10:14Thanks to you, my friend.
10:15I appreciate it.
10:16Lisa Rubin is MSNOW senior legal reporter.
10:19All right, coming up, the protesters win again as the Trump Justice Department
10:22is forced into opening a civil rights investigation into the killing of Alex Preddy.
10:26I'll bring you that story next.
10:31Today, after six days of protest in Minnesota and across the country,
10:35the Trump Justice Department opened a civil rights investigation
10:38into the fatal shooting of the Minneapolis ICU nurse Alex Preddy,
10:43who was shot in the back by ICE agents last Saturday.
10:46Now, this is important.
10:48It's a welcome reversal since civil rights investigations are an important accountability tool.
10:54The New York Times notes the investigations have at times resulted in significant prison terms
10:59for officers like Derek Chauvin, the Minneapolis police officer who pleaded guilty in 2021
11:05to civil rights violations in the murder of George Floyd.
11:08But they sometimes end without charges being filed, as in the case of Eric Garner,
11:13a Staten Island man who died in 2014 after a New York police officer placed him in a chokehold.
11:18The decision to move forward with a civil rights investigation in Mr. Preddy's case
11:22came after several federal law enforcement officials in Minneapolis revolted against Mr. Blanche's
11:28assessment that a similar inquiry was not warranted in the earlier fatal shooting of Renee Good.
11:35But the Trump Justice Department started the day filing charges against Don Lemon,
11:40best known as a former news anchor on CNN,
11:42who's now an independent journalist currently covering the anti-ice protests in Minneapolis.
11:47Don Lemon and a Minnesota journalist, Georgia Ford,
11:50both black journalists were charged with interfering with a church service
11:55and denying the churchgoers with their right to practice of their right to practice religion.
12:00Both journalists say they were there as journalists to cover the demonstration.
12:04Abby Lowell, lawyer for Don Lemon, said in a statement,
12:07instead of investigating the federal agents who killed two peaceful Minnesota protesters,
12:11the Trump Justice Department is devoting its time, attention and resources to this arrest.
12:16And that is the real indictment of wrongdoing in this case.
12:20And despite the Alex Preddy civil rights investigation,
12:22Donald Trump has returned to personally attacking Alex Preddy online,
12:27calling him an agitator and a possible insurrectionist.
12:31Strikes me if Donald Trump wants to find an insurrectionist,
12:34he might start with the 1500 January 6th defendants that he pardoned on his first day in office.
12:39But despite what Donald Trump says, Tom Homan is drawing down ice forces in Minneapolis
12:45and the civil rights investigation for Alex Preddy's killing is happening.
12:49The public outcry is working.
12:52Today, thousands of students at universities and high schools across the country
12:55walked out of their classrooms.
12:57Activist groups called for a national shutdown and an economic blackout today
13:01where people skipped work, school and shopping
13:03to protest Donald Trump's immigration policies
13:06and the surge of federal ICE agents in Minnesota.
13:09And this week, No Kings, which in October got an estimated 7 million people
13:13at 2700 places across the country to protest Donald Trump,
13:17has announced its next mass mobilization will be on March 28th
13:22in response to what it calls, quote,
13:25the secret police force terrorizing American communities.
13:28The message is clear.
13:30Citizens showing up matters.
13:33Joining us now is Leah Greenberg, co-founder and co-executive director
13:37of the Indivisible Project.
13:39Leah, great to see you.
13:40Thank you for being with us.
13:42Great to be here.
13:43You think about this all day, every day.
13:46So tell me how you evaluate these developments.
13:48I worry about the civil rights investigation largely because the Department of Justice
13:52has largely gutted the civil rights unit to start with.
13:55So they don't have a deep commitment to these civil rights investigations.
13:58But these little bits of movement, the removal of Bovino, Greg Bovino,
14:05the idea that there is a civil rights investigation,
14:08the walking back of some of the remarkably inflammatory things
14:11that the administration officials said, are these meaningful developments?
14:17Well, I think we have to hold that we're seeing two things at the same time.
14:20We are seeing them get a little bit spooked.
14:22We're seeing them back off some of the most inflammatory, most visible forms of violence
14:28against onlookers.
14:29And we're seeing stuff like the swap of Bovino for Homan in Minnesota.
14:35And simultaneously, we are seeing this campaign of repression is taking new forms.
14:40It's showing up in new tactics.
14:41But it is continuing.
14:42There is still an enormous ICE presence across Minneapolis.
14:46There have been arrests and there are warrants for protesters and for activists across Minnesota
14:52who have been out doing nothing more than helping and supporting their neighbors.
14:56And today, we saw the arrests of Don Lemon, Georgia Ford, and two others
14:59for covering protests in Minnesota.
15:01So I think what we're seeing is both they are spooked,
15:04they are trying to pull back a little bit in some of the public forms of brutality,
15:09but they are continuing to crack down on forms of dissent
15:12that are crucial for actually protecting people and for getting the word out.
15:16So when you think about, you know, the seven plus million people who turned out for No Kings
15:20in October and the fact that the situation is further in flame than it was in October
15:25and there is a broader set of complaints for American citizens,
15:29is there a danger in seeing the administration get spooked enough that it pulls back enough
15:34to cause some people to say, all right, they're less crazy than they seemed two weeks ago?
15:41I, knowing this administration, I'm not worried about that.
15:45I mean, unfortunately, I worry a lot about a violent, yeah, I mean, unfortunately,
15:51at any point in the last year, if you were to say, oh, now they've, now they're going to,
15:55you know, clean up their act, now they're going to pull back, you, you know, you're the dumb money
15:59every time.
16:00Unfortunately, what we see is that when enough people organize and push them back,
16:04they take maybe a step back for a short period of time,
16:06but then they move on to their next form of repression, antagonism, attacks on vulnerable
16:11populations.
16:12And so, you know, as we are thinking about how we build to March 28th, we think it's important
16:17to think about it not just as a single day of protest, but as an ongoing campaign of organizing
16:22and training and preparation and absorbing people into regular forms of activism.
16:27Because it's not just about getting a large number of people out on a single day, it's actually
16:31about making sure as many people as possible are following in the steps of Alex Preddy or Renee Good
16:36and actually organizing on a daily basis to protect their communities.
16:38And really, for the last year, we have seen small protests across the country, consistently
16:44small protests that get bigger.
16:46There are 10 people and then it's 20 people and then it's 30 people.
16:49There is value in these small acts across the country.
16:53I'd love to see 10 or 15 million people on March 28th.
16:57But I think your point is valid that every single person who comes out strengthens this
17:05thing in a way that is a force multiplier.
17:08Oh, absolutely.
17:09I mean, look, I love I love to see the drone, the drone views of, you know, hundreds of thousands
17:15of people out on the streets of big cities.
17:17But what is almost as incredible to me is the 10 or 20 people in a town that's never had
17:22a protest like this before, because that is that's the beginning of something really powerful.
17:27It's the beginning of an organizing nucleus in that place that can go on to do so much
17:30more.
17:31You would think that the shooting of two people who were who were following the law and doing
17:37what they should be doing would would alarm potential protesters.
17:42That has not been your experience in the last couple of weeks.
17:44You have not seen fewer people wanting to sign up, get training and go out.
17:50Oh, if anything, we've seen we've seen these incredibly horrifying unjustified killings.
17:55These murders backfire politically.
17:57What we have seen is that each time this administration has had this active on horrifying
18:03violence, more people say, what can I do?
18:06Put me in.
18:07Help me figure out how I can be involved.
18:09We had after immediately after Alex Petty's murder on just within 48 hours, the No Kings
18:14coalition worked together with our friends at ACLU to put on an ice watch training.
18:20Over 200000 people have now done that training in just the 48 hours since Petty's murder.
18:26And so to me, that's just an incredibly powerful demonstration of how dedicated people are, how
18:31committed they are and how these acts of violence are actually backfiring because they
18:35are drawing more people in to the cycle of organizing and protecting their neighbors.
18:40Now, thank you for all the work that you do.
18:41We appreciate it.
18:42Thank you for being with us tonight.
18:43Leah Greenberg is the co-founder and the co-executive director of Indivisible.
18:48Joining me now is Sarah Nelson.
18:49She's the president of the Association of Flight Attendants and a major labor leader in this
18:54country.
18:54Sarah, it's great to see you.
18:55Thank you for being with us.
18:57Sarah, I want to ask you, you know, 2023 and 2024 were remarkable years for the union
19:03movement in this country.
19:05We've been hearing for decades about how unionization is, you know, is getting smaller and there are
19:09fewer people and people don't care as much.
19:11And then we saw unions really step up under the guy under, by the way, with a president
19:16who was really supportive of unions.
19:18Tell me about the union role in what we're seeing right now.
19:22Well, unions are all about the power behind this movement.
19:25If you think back to 1914, when coal miners actually 28 different languages spoken in a
19:32tent city that the coal miners had created to go on strike against the coal barons who were
19:38not even upholding the standards of Colorado law.
19:41And all of these immigrants were out there striking for basic dignity at work.
19:46They were using the power of their labor to stop production, to bring about change.
19:51And what did the coal barons do?
19:52They called out the Colorado National Guard who fired on them, burned the entire tent city,
19:57killed 25 people, including 11 children.
20:00And Mother Jones, the great labor organizer, came out there and said, sure, you lost.
20:04Because any constitution, any competition between bayonets and the Constitution, the bayonets are
20:10going to win every time.
20:11But you will fight and lose.
20:13You will fight and win.
20:14But you must fight.
20:15And they went on to fight.
20:16And they built the biggest and strongest union in America that went on to build the UAW and
20:21the steel workers and communication workers of America and built up the great social and
20:26economic contract that created the greatest shared prosperity this country has ever experienced.
20:31So that is the power that we can bring to this movement to stop the march of fascism and
20:37the attack on regular people that is an attack on our constitution, our contract with America.
20:44And we were just talking to Leah about the fact that there are people involved in this thing.
20:47This has got nothing to do now with immigration policy in the same way that going out there and
20:52protesting against the government is now people are just talking about protecting their neighbors.
20:57So talk to me about this, because I think it was seven years ago this week that you were
21:00you were on a show with Don Lemon, ironically, and you called for, you know,
21:06some sort of a national action, a strike of sorts.
21:10We were in the middle of a government shutdown.
21:12And our safety and security was getting stretched further and further.
21:17And our union was talking about this daily and talking about the threat to our jobs,
21:21the threat to not only our safety and security, but our economic security, too.
21:25And so we were talking about striking.
21:27And we called on the rest of the labor movement to talk about a general strike to end that shutdown.
21:33We knew that if we came together and just simply stopped this country, that all things would stop.
21:39And in fact, when we actually talked about that and made that the narrative, then when a few
21:45flights start to cancel because some of the air traffic controllers could no longer safely do
21:50their jobs, that shutdown came to an end when there was no political end in sight.
21:55It was labor that actually changed the course of history there.
21:58And we can do it again.
22:00Again, the threat of a real general strike with workers actually withholding their work.
22:04This is something that we have to work toward.
22:06It is also something that unions can do.
22:08We can hold those conversations in our places of work where we can talk about what we can do
22:14together to stop a system that is supporting the suppression of American people.
22:18And then there's the people who go out to protest, as we were talking about with Leah.
22:21There's the organized labor, the things they can do.
22:24And then there's withholding your spending.
22:27There is economic power.
22:28There are a lot of companies that are lined up alongside or behind the Trump administration
22:35in their enforcement, the so-called immigration.
22:37I don't even call it immigration enforcement because it's just thuggery.
22:40But the point is, there are a lot of companies that are forward-facing that we as the media can
22:44tell Americans about, and they can say, we're just not going to support those companies
22:48because they are not, they don't share our values about this country and our neighbors.
22:53That's right, Ellie.
22:55And we should be calling on all companies to be Fourth Amendment companies to protect
22:59the rights of their workers.
23:00And frankly, they need stability in order to exist.
23:04But I would also argue that some of the biggest companies use immigration as a cudgel against
23:10their workers.
23:11This is how they bring down wages.
23:13This is how they work against people.
23:14There's a wonderful article this week by Alex Press and Jacobin.
23:18I encourage people to read it.
23:19It's about why unions should care and why labor should raise up for immigration rights, because
23:24this is a tool that is used by the boss to keep workers down.
23:27The basic right to complain, to sign your name to a union card, to be able to put your name
23:33on something, have an interview with the press and talk about your issues, that is disrupted
23:39when you have to worry about showing your papers, when you have to worry that you're going to
23:43be dragged away, when you have to be worried that you're going to be separated from your
23:46family.
23:46Sure.
23:47So this is a tool of the boss from the beginning of time.
23:49We have to understand that.
23:50And we have to come together and talk about it in our unions and turn on the card, just
23:55like UAW did in 2023 with that great stand-up strike to turn around the economic conditions
24:01for auto workers.
24:02I imagine we'll be talking a lot more about this in the coming weeks, Sarah.
24:05Good to see you again.
24:06Thank you for being with us.
24:07Sarah Nelson is the president of the Association of Flight Attendants.
24:10All right.
24:10Coming up, we will have more on the Trump Justice Department arresting journalists for covering
24:14protests against the federal agents who've been deployed on the American streets.
24:18That's next.
24:22Last night, the journalist Don Lemon was arrested by federal agents at the direction of the Attorney
24:27General Pam Bondi for the crime of doing journalism.
24:32We're not part of the activists, but we're here just reporting on them.
24:35So I'm just going to be as respectful as possible.
24:38I'm not here to intimidate anybody.
24:40I'm just here to chronicle and to get some answers.
24:45Well, you see, there is Don Lemon in his capacity as an independent journalist reporting
24:50on the protests at a church in St. Paul in the aftermath of the killing of Renee Good
24:54by ICE agent Jonathan Ross.
24:56It's the journalism that got Don Lemon and another Georgia, another journalist, Georgia
25:01Fort, arrested by Donald Trump's Department of Justice.
25:04This should be a five alarm moment for democracy.
25:08Journalists work is constitutionally protected by the First Amendment.
25:11But Trump has made no secret of the fact that he has no respect for journalists.
25:15When Don Lemon had a national news show in Trump's first term, Trump called him, quote,
25:20the dumbest man on television, end quote.
25:23Today, Don Lemon delivered this message outside the courthouse in Los Angeles after his arraignment
25:28that he will not stop and he will not be silenced by Donald Trump.
25:33I have spent my entire career covering the news.
25:37I will not stop now.
25:40In fact, there is no more important time than right now, this very moment, for a free and
25:48independent media that shines a light on the truth and holds those in power accountable.
25:53Again, I will not stop now.
25:55I will not stop ever.
25:59Last night, the DOJ sent a team of federal agents to arrest me in the middle of the night
26:04for something that I've been doing for the last 30 years, and that is covering the news.
26:10The First Amendment of the Constitution protects that work for me and for countless of other
26:16journalists who do what I do.
26:19I stand with all of them, and I will not be silenced.
26:24I look forward to my day in court.
26:27Thank you all.
26:29Going after journalists is a standard part of the authoritarian playbook.
26:34It's going to have a chilling effect on other reporters who don't have Don Lemon's national
26:38profile.
26:39But it has another effect in this moment, which is to turn our collective attention toward
26:43the undemocratic treatment of a journalist in Minneapolis and away from the undemocratic,
26:48horrific and possibly criminal actions of federal agents who shot two American citizens to
26:54death, as we all saw on the video.
26:57This is also what the authoritarian wants, for us to be overwhelmed with their assault
27:01on our democratic norms and divided in our focus to resist.
27:05Joining us now is Zach Beecham, senior correspondent at Vox.
27:08He's also the author of The Reactionary Spirit, How America's Most Insidious Political Tradition
27:12Swept the World.
27:13Zach, thank you for being with us.
27:14Don's an old friend, and I believe him when he said he's not going to stop.
27:18He's kind of a bad guy to pick on in this particular instance.
27:22But I'm trying to sort of square the—is this just distraction from the fact that the people
27:26doing the damage in Minneapolis, the people posing danger to the American people in Minneapolis
27:31are federal agents, not the Don Lemons of the world?
27:35No, what this represents, at least in my understanding, is the Trump administration bowing to the
27:41logic of the online right.
27:43So for several days now, prior to the arrest, I'd been seeing conservatives in my Twitter
27:50feed dedicated to following people on the right saying, why don't they arrest Don Lemon?
27:55Why don't they arrest Don Lemon?
27:56Why don't they arrest Don Lemon?
27:57And I just kept thinking, what possible case could there be for arresting Don Lemon?
28:03He was just there.
28:04He was at this event covering it as a journalist.
28:07And here it was.
28:08Now we found out today—I mean, it happened last night, but we found out today—that Don
28:12Lemon has been arrested.
28:13And it appears, as far as I can tell, that there's no legitimate rationale for arresting Lemon
28:19based on the documents that we've seen so far.
28:22Or it's just there were significant amounts of pressure from the extremely online people
28:27who have been shaping policy in the Trump administration.
28:30And so this extremely online contingent of conservatives bleeding on Twitter about arresting
28:34Don Lemon, they fished their wish.
28:36They are literally helping to find the agenda for the U.S. Department of Justice.
28:40So let's put this in context.
28:42This doesn't happen in North Korea because there are no independent journalists in North
28:45Korea, but it happens in other places.
28:47There are in Iran.
28:47There are in India.
28:48There are in Turkey.
28:49There are in Hungary.
28:51And this happened.
28:53So what happened is, more than a week ago, a magistrate denied this warrant to arrest Don
29:00Lemon.
29:00And some reporting indicates that Pam Bondi and the government were furious about this.
29:06In fact, a government spokesman said, we will go to the ends of the earth to prosecute
29:11Don Lemon.
29:12Even if you think Don Lemon did something wrong, I'm not sure this is ends of the earth type
29:16stuff.
29:16I don't believe he did anything wrong, and I think that's what the case will prove.
29:19But the ends of the earth to pursue an independent journalist?
29:24No.
29:24I mean, preposterous, right?
29:26Like, just setting aside the incredible misallocation of federal resources, right?
29:31As you suggested, people should maybe be focusing on actual crimes.
29:35But it's also really not about the severity of the crimes or a rational allocation of resources.
29:44It's about somebody becoming disfavored by the groups who are sort of ideologically behind
29:51the White House and who the staffing class that's currently in the White House listens
29:55to, right?
29:56I'm very resistant to the idea that there's some kind of plan underlying idea here.
30:01Step one, arrest Don Lemon.
30:02Step two, I don't know what it is.
30:04Step three, then the media is no longer independent.
30:06Like, I really—it's not—this is not what I would do if I was counseling them on how to
30:10take down American democracy or the freedom of the press.
30:13It's not a good strategy.
30:15Interesting, because Don has been a prominent journalist for a long time.
30:19He was on CNN for many years.
30:20We worked there together.
30:21Now he's an independent journalist.
30:22And there's something to that, because what that means is you lose certain protections
30:26as an independent journalist.
30:28Now, Abby Lowell is representing him.
30:30Abby Lowell is representing a lot of people who have been targeted by this government.
30:35But there's something to that.
30:36There's something about the chilling effect, because one of the reasons why the government's
30:40narrative about Renee Goode and Alex Preddy fell apart is because regular people press
30:45record on their phone.
30:46There's some degree we're all independent journalists now.
30:49Everybody can be an independent journalist.
30:50And this is a bit of a shot across that bow, too.
30:54Yeah.
30:54I don't think it's very well considered, because Don Lemon has the resources to fight this case.
31:00I don't think that there will be sufficient vindication of the government narrative that they'll
31:06be able to score a really impressive win here that'll cause people to not want to
31:10fight anymore.
31:10Now, granted, the very fact that someone is being arrested, that does create a chilling
31:16effect for people who don't have those levels of resources, right?
31:18If you don't want to engage in that fight, maybe you'll think twice about doing it again.
31:22But one thing I've observed over and over again with this government is they think that
31:26they're establishing some kind of chilling effect.
31:28They think that what they're doing is trying to inhibit people.
31:31But in actual fact, what ends up happening is people are so angry about what they've done
31:37that you end up basically causing a backlash, right?
31:40People are saying, I'm not going to do this.
31:42Screw you.
31:43I'm not going to listen to you.
31:44I will stand up.
31:45I'm going to protest.
31:46I'm going to demonstrate.
31:47And I'm going to continue recording these things on my phone, because if I don't, then
31:52they win.
31:53And so I really just, there are smarter tactics.
31:57And the government's used some of them, right?
31:58Like, look at the way that they've affected CBS News, the broadcasting there, or the way in
32:03which they've shifted or helped shift the ownership structure of TikTok, if you want
32:07to be controlling the flow of information, that's what a smart autocrat does.
32:11And they've done some of those things.
32:13But these high-profile arrests, it's technically very unwise.
32:17And the only explanation that makes sense to me is that they are listening to unstrategic,
32:22angry voices who really represent the base of what the administration listens to right
32:28now, their true political base, which is not the voters, right?
32:32It is online, very aggressive, very loud conservatives who have captured the minds of the people who
32:38staff the Trump White House right now.
32:40And in many ways, those people are playing a major role in calling the shots in our government.
32:45And I think, I believe, and this is not based on inside information.
32:48It's just based on trying to just sort of tease out a coherent pattern of actions here.
32:54I believe that's why Don Lemon got arrested, because conservatives on Twitter wanted it.
32:59What a situation, Zach.
33:00I can't believe we're actually talking about this stuff.
33:02But every time I talk to you, it's the same thing.
33:05It's like, I can't believe we're actually talking about this stuff.
33:06And yet, you and I will be talking in a week again about something else crazy that's happened.
33:10Zach Beecham, we appreciate your time.
33:12Zach Beecham is a senior correspondent at Vox.
33:14He's the author of an important book called The Reactionary Spirit, How America's Most Insidious
33:18Political Tradition Swept the World.
33:20All right, coming up, we are going through something really traumatic, but people are coming together
33:23to protect each other.
33:25That's the report I got from one Minnesota lawmaker last Friday night at this hour.
33:29The following morning, when I was on air doing my other show, Velshi, it happened again.
33:34Another person had been shot and killed by federal agents.
33:37The Congresswoman, Kelly Morrison, joins me next from Minneapolis to tell me how her neighbors
33:41are doing tonight.
33:45Last Friday night, I began this hour by talking to my next guest, the Minnesota Congresswoman,
33:50Kelly Morrison.
33:50Minneapolis had already endured the terrible killing of Renee Good, but at the time that
33:55I spoke with Morrison, the city was still hours away from the second fatal shooting of
33:59one of its citizens, Alex Preddy, by federal agents who were sent to Minneapolis by Donald
34:04Trump.
34:04Here's a portion of what Congresswoman Morrison told me about the immense outpouring of grief,
34:09resilience, and protests that we were already seeing one week ago before the killing of Alex
34:14Preddy.
34:16I could not be more proud of my state and its people.
34:20You know, we're going through something really traumatic.
34:23The weight of the federal government is coming down upon us.
34:26We have literally been invaded by federal agents.
34:31Neighborhoods are being terrorized.
34:32Children are being terrorized.
34:34Families are being ripped apart.
34:35And Minnesotans are organizing in the most remarkable way.
34:40It's grassroots neighborhood by neighborhood, school by school.
34:46People are coming together to protect each other and to take care of their neighbors.
34:53And back with us again tonight is the Democratic Representative Kelly Morrison of Minnesota.
34:57Her district includes some of the suburbs in and around Minneapolis.
35:01Representative Morrison, good to see you again.
35:03You used language last week, which I'm hearing a lot from people in Minneapolis, people in
35:08Minnesota, neighbors.
35:09We're not even talking about immigrants anymore.
35:11There are some immigrants versus citizens versus legal immigrants versus documented immigrants
35:14versus undocumented immigrants.
35:16All people are talking about is these are my neighbors and you, the federal government,
35:20are making my neighborhood unsafe.
35:23That's exactly right.
35:25I can't believe that it has been just a week since we last spoke.
35:29And as you said, just hours later, Alex Preddy, a VA nurse who had devoted his life and his
35:36career to caring for our veterans, was murdered just like Renee Good in cold blood in broad daylight
35:44on a street in Minneapolis, witnessed by unbelievably brave constitutional observers who with their
35:53microphones recorded history.
35:56You know, two of them were interviewed on the national news, Stella Carlson and Kayla Schultz.
36:03And I think their names will go down in history with Renee Goods and Alex Preddy's because they bore witness.
36:09They showed more courage than many of the most powerful people in our country have been able to muster to
36:16date.
36:16Right. But that's exactly right.
36:18Sorry. Go ahead, Ali.
36:19No, I was going to say you had this experience in Minneapolis with the with the killing of George Floyd.
36:23It was the same thing, right?
36:24Somebody people were brave enough to take those videos.
36:27And that's why we knew that the official narrative was not true.
36:32That's exactly right.
36:33They were there to bear witness.
36:35And that is what people are doing here in Minnesota.
36:38You know, all the things that I said a week ago stand and maybe even more so our resolve is
36:45stronger than ever in our communities.
36:48They didn't realize I don't think they fully appreciated who they're messing with.
36:53Minnesota is an unbelievably tight community.
36:57We have deep civic engagement and we are very committed to taking care of each other.
37:02And the people of Minnesota are stepping up in the most remarkable ways.
37:06This week I've been in community.
37:08I went, for example, to an ICA food shelf where there are volunteers at the windows scanning the street for
37:18ice.
37:19And imagine that.
37:20So people are in this food shelf packing food for their neighbors who are afraid to leave their home so
37:26that people can come pick it up and deliver it to them.
37:28And people are at the windows looking out for their federal government who is going to come and interfere with
37:33their ability to care for their neighbors.
37:36I went to a blood bank.
37:38We have a blood emergency here because people are afraid to come in and give blood.
37:41People were in there responding to that call, giving blood, knowing how important it is that our blood supply is
37:48maintained.
37:49I spoke at a training for constitutional observers the other night.
37:54Hundreds of people coming out to learn how to participate in protecting their neighbors.
37:59I met with superintendents just the other day of the districts in the school districts in my district here.
38:07They are terrified and they are laser focused on making sure that schools are safe places for their students.
38:14And bus stops are safe places.
38:17ICE agents are stalking bus stops.
38:20So, you know, some of the bigger districts have thousands of bus stops.
38:24So, keeping up with parents having to create patrols to make sure the kids can just get on the bus
38:30safely.
38:31They're describing 13-year-olds being accosted by federal agents demanding their ID, demanding where their parents to know where
38:38their parents were born.
38:40This is madness, Allie.
38:42And Minnesota is not having it.
38:45No, and it's a great example to the rest of us across the country.
38:49I was speaking to Leah Greenberg of Indivisible earlier, then I was speaking to Sarah Nelson, a labor leader, and
38:54I was speaking to Zach Beecham a few moments ago.
38:56And everybody reports the same thing, that the scare tactics aren't working.
39:00Leah said more people are signing up to be constitutional observers and to have training, protest training.
39:07Sarah Nelson said the labor movement is figuring out ways to rally around either economic boycotts or work stoppages around
39:15this.
39:15It's the arrest of Don Lemon.
39:17It's not going to scare most journalists away.
39:19It's going to make most journalists double down and say, I will bear witness along with my fellow citizens.
39:25That's exactly right.
39:26And, you know, Bruce Springsteen was so inspired.
39:28He wrote a beautiful song about the streets of Minneapolis.
39:31And he came to town and sang it today at one of our storied musical venues just before another huge
39:37protest of Minnesotans who stood together in the freezing cold that has not warmed up here, Allie, standing together in
39:45solidarity against this tyrannical government.
39:48And I say we are so grateful to Bruce Springsteen for sharing his talent and his gifts and for standing
39:54with us.
39:55And I call on people, all people of goodwill who have platforms and who have power to stand up to
40:03this with us.
40:04We invite you to be a little bit courageous, be a little bit brave, just like Kayla and Stella were,
40:12and stand with us.
40:13It will make a big difference.
40:14I remind people it was 17 days after Kent State when Neil Young and Crosby, Stills, Nash & Young recorded
40:20Ohio.
40:20It changed the way the country looked at these things.
40:23They realized the protesters aren't the problem.
40:26The government's the problem.
40:28Kelly Morrison, great to see you.
40:29We've been talking a lot lately, and I suspect we're going to be talking a lot in the days to
40:33come.
40:33The Democratic Congresswoman Kelly Morrison of Minnesota.
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