- 21 hours ago
On today’s sponsored episode, Editor in Chief Sarah Wheeler talks with Larry Lawrence, global head of sustainable finance data at Intercontinental Exchange, and Andy Walden, head of mortgage and housing market research at ICE, about climate risk and housing affordability.
Related to this episode:
ICE Mortgage Monitor
https://mortgagetech.ice.com/resources/data-reports?tagIdGroups=&requiredTagIds=161812&activeOnly=false
ICE Climate
https://www.ice.com/fixed-income-data-services/ice-climate-data-analytics
HousingWire | YouTube
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXDD_3y3LvU60vac7eki-6Q
More info about HousingWire
https://lnk.bio/housingwire
The HousingWire Daily podcast brings the full picture of the most compelling stories in the housing market reported across HousingWire. Each mornin
Related to this episode:
ICE Mortgage Monitor
https://mortgagetech.ice.com/resources/data-reports?tagIdGroups=&requiredTagIds=161812&activeOnly=false
ICE Climate
https://www.ice.com/fixed-income-data-services/ice-climate-data-analytics
HousingWire | YouTube
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXDD_3y3LvU60vac7eki-6Q
More info about HousingWire
https://lnk.bio/housingwire
The HousingWire Daily podcast brings the full picture of the most compelling stories in the housing market reported across HousingWire. Each mornin
Category
🗞
NewsTranscript
00:09Welcome, everyone. Today, we're discussing a critical intersection, and that's climate
00:14risk and housing affordability. What we're really exploring is with extreme weather events
00:19becoming more frequent and severe, how is this reshaping the mortgage market and homeowner
00:24decisions? To answer that question, I'm joined today by Larry Lawrence from Ice Climate and
00:29Andy Walden from the ice mortgage data side. Welcome to you guys. I'm so glad to have you
00:36both on. Before we dive into the data part of this, I'd love to hear a little bit about
00:40what your teams do and what motivates your work. So, Larry, let's start with you. What
00:45is Ice Climate and what gets you excited about this space?
00:48All right. Lucky me. So I'm Larry Lawrence. Ice Climate is the climate and geospatial
00:56intelligence division of ice. We're focused on bringing the same kind of transparency to
01:01climate risk analytics or extreme weather analytics, if you want to call it that, that ice has brought
01:06to other parts of the financial markets over the last few decades. We're a team of data scientists,
01:12climate and financial modelers focused on building large data sets of location-specific information,
01:19thinking about where buildings are located, where offices are located, where data centers are located,
01:24a topical thing. And then we link those to the financial assets that our clients own and help
01:29them think about how these different types of risks, whether it's extreme weather today happening now or
01:36in the future, could potentially have an impact on the revenue of these different assets. Our mission
01:42is really to help lenders, insurers, homers make better decisions by understanding these risks,
01:48these exposures at the property level, the loan level, and at the asset level for the balance
01:54that they manage. So in particular, we think this is pretty relevant today because most people think
02:01about climate risk and think this is a future event, a future thing to pay attention to. But what we
02:07found
02:07is that it's impacting different parts of the housing market today. And it's something that investors are
02:13paying attention to. Larry, I think that's really important too, because I also think there's the
02:18sort of idea of like, and we can't know what's coming. So like, let's just deal with what we could
02:23do. But what you do there with the data is you are surfacing the things that can be done now
02:28and how it
02:29might be impacting right now. So super interesting. Andy, what about you?
02:34Yeah. And as you know, sir, I head up the mortgage and housing market research team at ICE. And so
02:38I get
02:38the kind of distinct pleasure of getting to play with the data sets across the organization. And
02:42in many cases, a lot of traditional data sets that we typically think about mortgage origination
02:47data, mortgage performance, housing market trends, and public records, and all of those things that
02:52we're pretty experienced at playing with in the industry. But obviously, one that's coming to the
02:56forefront is obviously connecting that traditional data with what Larry's team is doing over on the
03:01climate side, looking at how climate's impacting mortgage performance and mortgage related risk in the
03:07market, and then tying property insurance data into that as well. And really the intersection
03:11between climate risk, property insurance, coverage, and overall default risk in the market.
03:17And so I get to discuss that a lot internally here at ICE and get kind of the pleasure of
03:22discussing
03:22it externally in forums like this as well. So excited to do it.
03:26I love that. Well, let's dive into some of that research, right? So what can ICE's data tell us about
03:30the impacts of extreme weather events and climate risk on mortgage performance? And specifically,
03:35Larry, your team's recent white paper examined delinquency rates after natural hazard and
03:41extreme weather events, which I think is really interesting. So let's start with that.
03:45Yeah, no, it is. It is really interesting. I think it sort of really points to the fact that this
03:50is
03:51impacting everything now and it's a today problem, not a tomorrow problem. So our research team analyzed
03:57mortgage delinquency patterns following hundreds of sort of extreme weather events over the last 14 years.
04:04These events include, think of wildfires, hurricanes, tropical storms, even floods.
04:09And we did that analysis since looking from 2012 or 2012 to current. On average, what we see is that
04:19after a wildfire, hurricane or flood event, short-term mortgage delinquency probabilities
04:25increased substantially in the following three, one to three months. So that short-term shock is pretty
04:32extreme. Over longer time scales, loans in higher risk areas, you know, you think of loans that have
04:39sort of higher elevated risk from flood, those experience pretty elevated probabilities of severe
04:47delinquency over the longer term, even after controlling for different borrower characteristics.
04:52So these climate-related impacts on the housing market, again, it's happening now. They're creating
04:59sort of short-term stress for servicers, local banks, even credit unions, and as well as creating
05:06more concerns for those longer-term investors who are concerned about, you know, the performance of
05:11whole loans or mortgage insurers and others like that, that sort of try to insure for longer term.
05:19So we're seeing pretty significant shocks following these extreme weather events in the short-term,
05:25especially. Andy, that's one side of the coin. What do you see when you look at these same things?
05:31Yeah. I mean, if we look at it from the property insurance side, you see a very similar storyline
05:35playing out. I think we've all heard kind of the headline numbers for property insurance. It's up 70%
05:39over the last six years. It's the single fastest growing subcomponent of a mortgage payment.
05:45And it's not just a Florida or Louisiana or Texas story anymore. I was at a conference in Nebraska
05:54a couple of weeks ago. We were talking about how Nebraska has the fourth highest expense or of course,
05:58most expensive property insurance per dollar of coverage anywhere in the country. Oklahoma is right
06:03there as well. So you're seeing it up the Midwestern region of the country. California, after the wildfires,
06:08you're seeing the fastest growth in property insurance cost anywhere in the country now out in
06:12California. And so really, regardless of where you sit from a geographical perspective,
06:18you're starting to see some of that exposure coming into the market. And we did a project with
06:24Larry's team. What was that, Larry? A couple, two months ago or so looking at property insurance costs
06:28specifically across the country. And we looked at the overall, not just the traditional PITI that we all
06:34think about, but they rolled in water costs and energy costs and everything that we're paying to own a home
06:40over time. And what they found was that the larger share of that expense that goes towards property
06:44insurance, the more likely you are to be behind on your mortgage payment. And you can see it across
06:49credit score bands. If you look at low credit score versus mid to high credit score borrowers,
06:53you see it similarly across those groups. You can see it across DTI bands. When you look at it across
06:58various geographies, you're seeing that same uptick and correlation where the more you're spending on
07:02property insurance, the more you are to be more likely you are to be behind on mortgage payments.
07:07And so you're seeing it not only on the climate side, but you can use that property insurance data
07:11as another risk attribute almost in terms of overall credit risk in the market as well.
07:16I like that you broadened it out from maybe the coastal areas where everyone thinks like,
07:21oh, okay, well, that's normal. Not normal, but we expected hurricanes, flooding. I was just in
07:26Colorado for about 10 days, and it has never been where I was around the Denver area. I have never
07:31seen it
07:32so brown at this time of year. And I think they just didn't get a lot of snow. They haven't
07:37had
07:37a lot of rain and you know what's coming, right? That's a huge fire risk. In some ways you have,
07:43you know, if you have that kind of hotter temperatures, that's a risk for more storms.
07:47Like it's crazy how it affects everywhere. Yeah, it's true. And I mean, I live here in Denver
07:52and I'll give you a little inside story from my own life. I got my escrow restatement last week.
07:57My property insurance jumped by $900 just this year. I've had zero claims. I've got a co-worker
08:03that lives 10 miles from here, kind of more on the Eastern Plains. It was just dropped from their
08:07insurance provider. And so you're right. It is everywhere. And we're feeling it here in Colorado
08:12as much as anybody else is. So let's talk about how homeowners are looking at this, how they're
08:19considering this when they're thinking about where to buy, what to buy. So beyond the credit stress
08:26specifically, how are homeowners considering this as they make their decisions?
08:31Yeah, let me give you maybe a couple of different examples that I've seen recently. One came out of
08:36our 2026 Borrower Insight Survey. So every year at ICE, we reach out to a bunch of recent mortgage
08:43takers, a bunch of recent home buyers, as well as renters that could be prospective home buyers in
08:49the near term here and ask them about what they're thinking about the market, what's important to them,
08:53what was important to them throughout the home buying process, etc. We asked them a question
08:57about climate risk this year and how important is climate when you're making a home buying decision.
09:02And three quarters of homeowners said that it was impactful and part of that decision making
09:06process. 40% said it was very or extremely important to them. And it was pretty consistent
09:11across geography. So the point you were just making pretty consistent across geographies as well.
09:16It wasn't just the South. It wasn't just the West that was saying that climate's important.
09:20And so what that tells me is we need to include more of that climate data in places that are
09:26actionable throughout that loan taking process, whether it's upfront when you're buying the home,
09:31whether it's through the loan origination process or servicing process, the more actionable
09:34information that we can put out there in the market, the better. The other piece that I saw,
09:39very clear decisioning processes being made by homeowners and mortgage holders was around
09:44insurance switching in recent years as well. If you look back over the last 10 to 15 years in the
09:51mid 20 teens, about seven and a half percent of mortgage holders switched insurance providers
09:56every year. It was a pretty consistent churn. When we look at what's happened over the last few years
10:02as insurance has become more expensive, seeing more and more folks shop for and switch insurance
10:08providers. It was all the way up to 11 and a half percent last year. We saw a record number
10:11of folks
10:12switching insurance and it's happening for a couple of different reasons. One,
10:15maybe they're being dropped, right? We're seeing a lot of those cases across the country, Florida,
10:19California. Again, I mentioned here in Colorado, we're seeing some of that as well. So you're either
10:23being dropped and you're forced to go get new insurance, or you're seeing enough of an increase
10:28in your insurance on a year over year basis that you're going out there and shopping, you're shifting
10:32your coverage, you're shifting your deductibles, you're finding more affordable and more attractive
10:37insurance options out there in the market. And so you're seeing more of that activity than we've
10:41seen historically as well, which again, you go back to how do we help homeowners in that journey?
10:46It's how do we help them shop for insurance upfront through that loan origination process? So we've
10:51built kind of APIs into the lending process to help folks shop and obtain the most optimal insurance
10:55for them. And then even throughout the life of the loan, embedding that in your servicing platforms and
10:59other technologies so that as folks go, for folks like me that just had my insurance raised after
11:04being in my mortgage for five years, going out there and providing them a frictionless way to shop and
11:10improve those policies and reduce that expense as well.
11:13It's such a shift because I remember, I mean, even say six, seven years ago, you could see the data,
11:19you can see what's happening. And yet it did not feel like it had gotten to maybe your average home
11:24buyer or homeowner. But that's because, you know, I mean, a lot of a lot has happened in the last
11:28six, seven years. And I do think that, as you said, I mean, people are aware of it because their
11:32insurance is changing because their neighbor's insurance is changing. Like it's not something that's just
11:37like, oh, well, that's happening somewhere to someone. It's like, no, it's happening to me.
11:41It's everyday conversation. I've had a dozen of them over the last two months outside of our
11:45industry, just talking to neighbors and family members in different parts of the country. It's
11:49everywhere and folks are shifting their behavior because of it.
11:52Larry, what are you seeing?
11:53Yeah, I mean, I can speak to sort of the home value side of the story
11:58because our recent research piece dug into this quite a bit. So what our research suggests is that
12:04properties in sort of flood prone areas are experiencing a, let's say a 0.2 to 0.4%
12:10slower annual home price appreciation on average and compared to like similar homes and areas without
12:16flood exposure. So flood risk is quietly shaven, you know, 0.2 to 0.4% per year of home
12:24price appreciation
12:26in high risk zip codes. Now that may not seem like a lot, but let's dig into what that means.
12:31So
12:32on average for a home that is valued at, you know, $250,000 in a high risk flood zone in
12:40say 2013,
12:41maybe worth $15,000 less today. And then it's sort of zero risk equivalent. So a home in like a,
12:48you know, zero flood risk area in total in the broader market, that's a $31 billion loss in
12:55residential value since 2013. So if you look at the trajectory in a, in a, in a decade of strong
13:02appreciation, the discount on these home price appreciation has kind of been masked a little bit
13:08hidden. Um, um, but the risk is, you know, um, is what comes next is especially important. Like investors
13:15in mortgage credit, in RMBS who may have priced this in, or will need to price that in. We'll need
13:21more data to help them do that. So, you know, I, I know I mentioned 0.2 to 0.4
13:26% that can get lost,
13:27but that's $31 billion in home price value. That's quietly being shaved off, um, um, in,
13:34in the market because of, uh, exposure to high, high flood risk zones.
13:37That's super important. You know, one of the things I love about this conversation we're having
13:42is that, like I said before, like climate risk can just feel like so nebulous. So, you know,
13:47talk about how, what, what is ICE doing to make climate data actionable? Like it, it really means
13:53something to lenders, to borrowers. And, and really our goal there is to put it and make it available in
13:58the form and fashion that's the most useful for our business partners. And in some cases that's,
14:03you know, through traditional data deliveries, those, you know, flat files of, of climate risk
14:08data or property insurance data or mortgage performance data, traditional, you know, in the
14:13forms that you would, would be used to injecting those and allowing folks to pull those into their
14:17traditional workflows. In some cases it's embedding that data into our tech stack here in ICE, whether
14:23it's through an origination platform or through our servicing platform, um, as well. So really it's,
14:29it's putting that data at your fingertips in the way that you want to get it. And there's
14:33a number of different ways to do that. When we look at the industry and how they're utilizing
14:38this data, I tend to think of it in kind of a before, during and after an event type of
14:43structure.
14:44So before an event takes place, before the hurricane even hits, before the wildfire even
14:48starts, it's really a lot of portfolio and risk management. So running your, if you're a lender,
14:55looking at your lending footprint and where you typically lend in the market and what the climate
14:59risks are there and looking at climate risks on specific properties that you may be lending.
15:03If you're a servicer or a capital markets participant, it's looking at your servicing
15:09portfolio, your whole loan or MBS portfolio, and looking at your climate risk. Are you overweight
15:15climate risk? Are you underweight climate risk? How do you stack up to the market at large?
15:19And in a lot of cases, they're using that as part of the due diligence process as they're acquiring
15:23new MSRs, buying new whole loans. We all think of due diligence as looking at the credit quality and
15:29everything associated with those loans. You're seeing more and more folks, you're almost on
15:33the outside looking in if you're not utilizing climate data as part of that due diligence process
15:38to make sure that folks aren't offloading their climate risk out there into the market.
15:41And you're unsuspectingly picking up a big chunk of climate risk, either in your servicing portfolio
15:46or your whole loan portfolio as well. So that's a lot of what happens before these events hit.
15:52Once an event actually takes place and there's a wildfire, or there's a hurricane, a lot of that is,
15:58you know, disaster alert. So Larry's team will feed you data overnight, whether it's at the parcel
16:03level or loan level. For a lender, it's how many loans do I have in flight that I'm halfway through
16:07that origination process I'm about to close on that may have just had the collateral impacted
16:12by a hurricane or a wildfire that I need to do an inspection before I close on that.
16:17On the servicing side, we used to rely heavily on FEMA county level data. Well, that's a pretty
16:22wide swath of your portfolio that you may have to weed through to figure out who is actually impacted.
16:28Having parcel level identification makes you a lot more efficient as a lender or as a servicer to
16:33provide borrower assistance and make sure that you're inspecting properties that need inspected.
16:37And helping homeowners that need helping. And then Larry talked about some of the the after
16:42event type of analytics, looking at what happens with home prices in the wake of these events,
16:47looking at, you know, public records data and permitting data in the wake of the wildfires.
16:52We've had a lot of questions around that and data polls around that and looking at how many folks are
16:58rebuilding? What are they rebuilding? How much insurance did they have? What kind of assistance
17:01programs would be best to help folks in the wake of this? And then using all of that data from
17:06post
17:06event to then circle around to the front end and model that risk going forward. So the more of
17:11these events that take place, the more we know about them, the way that the market behaves, and
17:15we can more accurately model future risk as well. So a number of different ways that you can access
17:20the data. Everybody uses it a little bit differently depending on where you sit in the industry. But a lot
17:27of
17:27a lot of key benefits and a lot of ways to reduce risk exposure, regardless of where you are and
17:32create some efficiencies inside of your workflows as well. I think that parcel level information,
17:37it just, it's so insane. And now it makes the FEMA, you know, like larger thing. It just looks like
17:43such a blunt instrument. It's like, you don't even know. You're like, okay, on this couple of blocks
17:47or something, it's like, we can get down to like, what does the fence look like? What is the,
17:51you know, what does your roof look like? What, what the windows got blown out? I mean, it's,
17:54it's a huge game changer. Yeah. And we used to look at delinquencies that way,
17:58right? We would look at post hurricane events and we would look at delinquencies inside of,
18:02of FEMA declared counties. And now we can look at, you know, Larry was feeding us over data for the
18:08California wildfires. And we can look at inside the specific wildfire zone and the wildfire perimeter
18:14and look at delinquency differences just from the perimeter to a hundred to 200 yards out from the
18:19perimeter. And you're seeing very distinct performance differences just in that distance.
18:23And then you see minimal impact outside of those zones. So you're right. It was a very blunt
18:29instrument before. It's a lot more precise now, and it makes us more accurate and more efficient
18:33and is an industry as a whole. Larry, I'd love for you to weigh in.
18:37Um, Andy covered a lot of ground. I would just say a couple of additional things. And I think you
18:43picked up on this quite well is a lot of the challenges we've heard from clients is that they've
18:48previously relied on market levels, zip code level averages to sort of get a sense of what
18:53risk is in certain areas. You, you know, and the data we have is really starting from the ground
19:00up. We are getting and mapping data to the parcel level over 150 million parcels across the United
19:08States. So you're able to start at the asset level and build up from there because, you know,
19:12you look at one area, as you said, risk can change pretty drastically within a few blocks.
19:18Um, so it's important to understand the nuances of that. So we've done a lot of work, um, to map
19:23our data at the property level, at the loan level, to help investors do that granular analysis and
19:29building from the ground up, which is critically important. And in addition to that, whether or
19:33not you're interested in understanding, Hey, as an event occurs like the LA wildfire, I'll give you an
19:38example there. We had clients calling us almost every day during the two weeks that the LA wildfire
19:45occurred because every single day went on the scope and the, the, the scope of damage increase,
19:50the, the, the surface area of impact increase. So clients were continually interested. Do I have
19:56any, how much of my assets are in exposed to this? I'd like to know now. So the, the capabilities
20:01we
20:01have can help them understand this in sort of near real time as events occur while fire, it could be
20:07a
20:07flood, it could be a hurricane, or even if you're out of the U S a typhoon, we do that
20:11as well. So
20:12giving you that near real time analytics to help you manage risk in, in, in almost a real time basis
20:19is, is critically important. But beyond that, we can also help you think about your entire
20:24portfolio of assets and pinpoint where you may have outsized risk from these types of events
20:31to help direct how you may want to think about decisions in the, in the future. So I think it's
20:37the granular data that's critically important to being able to help you with real time events as they
20:42happen. Cause that's a lot more tangible for people and also helping you to portfolio level
20:48risk analytics. So you understand where those hotspots in your portfolios are. So you can
20:52use that to make decisions. You know, it's awful that we have more of these things happening, but
20:58I'm like, I'm, I'm glad that it's happening at a time when we have the tech ability to get the
21:04information, understand what's happening and make decisions based on that. It's not just like,
21:08okay, all these random things are going to happen. And then it's just like a black box. No one knows,
21:13you know, at least we can, we can delineate things and, and take action. So, you know, as we,
21:19oh, as we wrap up this conversation, I'd love to ask you, what do you think people get wrong about
21:25climate and the housing market? Like what's the biggest misconception out there? Do you think?
21:29I mean, simply, and from my side, it's, people think it's a future problem and people try to make
21:34it this, this thing that's sort of way down the road. But what the data shows, as I just described
21:40to you, um, these events are happening now. Um, we had over $5 billion hurricanes in the last year,
21:48not last year, but the previous year hurricane season. So the, the, the, the outsized impact,
21:53these events are happening are significant. Someone is paying for that. The question is,
21:57is it you that's paying for that? Um, you don't know without these analytics to understand which
22:01of your assets are exposed. Um, so the data shows it's, it's already here. It's already
22:05impacting delinquencies. It's already impacting home value. And as Andy alluded to, it's already
22:10impacting home buyer decisions. Um, so the question is whether or not you want to integrate this
22:15granular data to give you more information than, than not to, to, to, to help direct your decisions
22:20you make. Now I'll add a couple there. I mean, one we've already talked about, right? The misconception
22:23about geography and, you know, I think historically we've all thought about this as a coastal issue
22:28and it's a Florida, Louisiana problem and not everyone else. And obviously that's fairly clearly
22:32no longer the case. The other one is, is one that maybe I have, and I'll, I'll ask you guys
22:37if maybe you have this one as, as well, but it's around flood insurance, which we haven't talked
22:41about a whole lot yet. And, you know, if we kind of rewind in time to kind of Larry and
22:45I kind of
22:46talking about impacts on the mortgage and housing market and what we wanted to look at originally
22:50with research projects, flood and flood insurance and flood risk was at the bottom of the list.
22:54For me, it was, it was hurricanes and it was wildfires. And the more that we got into the data,
22:59the more eye popping information came out on flood insurance. My, my thought up until a year ago was
23:03if you have flood risk in your portfolio, you're in a flood zone, you have flood insurance. And yes,
23:08there's some risks there and it probably impacts demand on those particular properties and home price
23:13growth. But if you've got flood risk, you're covered by flood insurance. And that couldn't be
23:18farther from the truth when you start to get in and dig into this underlying data. And we started
23:22to match climate risk data for flood insurance with property insurance data with mortgage performance
23:27data. What we found was there were 5.3 million single family homes across the U.S. that had one
23:32in a hundred year flood risk. Sounds like that rarely ever happens. The older I get, the more I'm like,
23:36a hundred years isn't, isn't that long. And the more you think of it in the context of a 30
23:40year
23:40mortgage, you're like, well, that's one in four chance roughly of a, of a property that you have in your
23:45portfolio being flooded at some point and sustaining some loss during the stated life of a mortgage.
23:50But then you, you look at how many of those 5.3 million have flood insurance. It's 15% of
23:57those
23:57loans that have one in a hundred year flood risk actually are covered by flood insurance. Then you
24:02narrow it down and say, all right, what about just high risk homes? There are about 350,000 that have
24:07higher extreme flood risk. Only a third of those are covered by flood insurance. Two thirds of higher
24:13extreme flood risk properties that aren't in a flood zone and don't carry flood risk.
24:17It doesn't make any sense. And it doesn't match what my initial thought around flood insurance
24:22coverage in the U.S. looks like. And then you start to look at why, and you see that those
24:27initial
24:27flood zones that were created weren't really based on pluvial flooding. Pluvial flooding is a fancy way of
24:33saying rainfall and, um, and flash flood related flood risk. When you look at the climate data that
24:38Larry's team is using and the fact that, um, they're using geospatial technology and topography
24:43maps and, and, and, uh, watershed models and things like that, you can look at what the true risk for,
24:49for flooding is. And it's very, very different than what those flood maps may tell you. It tells
24:55you that there's maybe a lot of underlying flood exposure that we have as an industry that you don't
24:59even know is sitting there and it's uninsured. And you see that when you, you look at that mortgage
25:04performance data, it tells you that exact thing that we've been talking about. If you have
25:07uninsured flood risk, it increases your likelihood of default on a mortgage and your increase in,
25:12in overall delinquencies. And so again, there's probably a lot of underlying flood exposure
25:17inside of folks portfolios. There was a lot more than I was expecting to see when we started looking
25:22at that data as well. So, you know, you've got climate in general, you've got property insurance
25:26costs in general, and then you've got this other flood component. That's another risk attribute that
25:30I think would be worth folks checking into as well.
25:33Well, especially because we see like, Oh, one in a hundred year flood. And then it happens three
25:36times in five years. And you're like, yeah, that's not a good model anymore. I don't know. That doesn't
25:41work. It's just been exposed so many times. I mean, North Carolina over the last couple of years,
25:45we've seen entire kind of towns, unfortunately wiped away. We saw the extremely unfortunate events
25:50down there in Texas. I mean, it's, it is time and time again. And again, it's one in a hundred
25:54year
25:55for you. But when you look at a national portfolio, you've got those exposures taking place all of the
26:00time. And a lot of it's connected to those hurricanes as well, where they come up through
26:04and you get the wind damage early in Florida and Texas and Louisiana, but then you get this severe
26:08rainfall pressure that happens more inland in places that aren't used to it. And it causes massive flood
26:14risk. This is so interesting. I could talk to you guys all day about this because to me, it is
26:18fascinating. Thank you both for these insights. Clearly climate risk is no longer just an abstract
26:24concern. Larry, it's, as you said, it's not just something that's going to happen in the future.
26:29For listeners who want to learn more about ICE's climate data or the mortgage monitor findings,
26:34where should they go? You want to tell them, Andy?
26:37I can tell. For the mortgage monitor specifically, you can just Google ICE mortgage monitor. I could
26:42give you the URL, but it's probably easier just to Google it. So if you Google ICE mortgage
26:46monitor, you can go out there and find all of our latest reports and findings.
26:50Yeah. And, and just ice, ice.com forward slash climate or
26:55pretty easy email address, first name dot last name and ice.com.
26:59Shoot me a note. Happy to talk to you.
27:00Appreciate both of you guys. Thanks so much for the conversation and we will talk again soon.
27:04Thank you, sir. I appreciate it.
27:06See you, sir.
Comments