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Catching Up with the Royals - Season 1 - Episode 05
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00:00Hello and welcome to Catching Up with the Royals, the show that never complains but always explains.
00:05With me, Richard Coles.
00:07And me, Emily Andrews.
00:08On today's show, as the royal family face their biggest crisis in nearly 100 years,
00:13we'll be asking, what can they do to recover?
00:16Because on the one hand, this is a family drama played out on the most public of stages.
00:23Questions arising about who you want and when.
00:25These are probing questions that the institution doesn't really like to be probed.
00:30Some people have said that the king should stand aside.
00:32Plus, we'll be looking at what really goes on behind the scenes of the palace during a PR disaster.
00:37A lot of people are asking, why was Andrew protected for so long?
00:40I mean, anyone can identify, I think, with a mother and a favourite child.
00:43They said to me that Andrew is her Achilles heel.
00:45And exploring why Princess Diana's legacy could be the key to the monarchy's survival.
00:50Gen Z, see Princess Diana now as history.
00:52On TikTok, billions and billions and billions of views of Princess Diana.
00:56Could Princess Diana save the monarchy?
01:03Well, Richard, what a week.
01:06What a week.
01:07I wish you'd have my worst enemy, Emily.
01:09No, I know.
01:11So, it's been very, very fast moving since last Thursday when it was announced that Andrew Mountbatten-Windsor, formerly Prince
01:19Andrew, was arrested and taken to Aylsham Police Station in Norfolk.
01:24Aylsham.
01:25Aylsham.
01:26Aylsham Police Station.
01:27There's something about that that just doesn't compute.
01:29Well, do you know what?
01:31It's a police investigation centre and it is a really drab, modern, pedestrian building a long way from Buckingham Palace,
01:39Richard.
01:40Yeah.
01:40No footmen.
01:41No footmen.
01:42No corgis.
01:43No valets.
01:43Yeah.
01:44No.
01:45There's a lot happened.
01:46There's been a lot of fast moving developments in this story, as you would expect.
01:49I think the key thing really to remember, I suppose, is that now the palace have lost control.
01:54And the reason they've lost control, because this is a police investigation.
01:56So police have finished searching Royal Lodge in Windsor and, indeed, Wood Farm in Sandringham, where Andrew is now living.
02:05Former Royal Protection Officers, PPOs, Police Protection Officers, have been asked to give statements to Thames Valley Police,
02:12who are leading this investigation into misconduct in a public office.
02:16Whereas other police forces around the country have been investigating the other element, which is the sex trafficking element, which
02:27pertains to planes coming into Stansted or Hampshire.
02:32And then, of course, there's this move in the government to remove Andrew from the line of succession.
02:38Which is going to take an act of parliament, not just here, but in other Commonwealth nations as well.
02:42Absolutely.
02:43The king is monarch of the UK and 14 other realms.
02:47So to pass that piece of legislation to remove a member of the royal family from the line of succession,
02:52Andrew's currently eighth, every realm has to agree for it to happen.
02:56In an organisation which is usually so highly organised and usually kind of on top of a situation, what's the
03:03atmosphere like when something like this happens?
03:06That's a really good question.
03:08I think initially what happened last week was, I think people were really shocked, actually.
03:14I mean, you and I, we did that emergency sort of catching up with the royals, didn't we, to catch
03:19up on that Thursday afternoon.
03:21And the mood in the palace was one of shock, which I guess with the benefit of hindsight, you thought,
03:29well, hang on a sec, a lot have come out of the Epstein files.
03:32But I think there is that position, isn't there, that when something so ordinary and utilitarian as an arrest happens
03:40to a member of the royal family, this hasn't happened for 400 years.
03:44The last person, as we said, was Charles I.
03:47But then I think the mood after that was a bit one of recrimination.
03:53And a dangerous moment, perhaps, because you might feel you have to make a concession that your better judgment might
04:00suggest you shouldn't.
04:01You know, access to Buckingham Palace, questions arising about who knew what and when.
04:07These are probing questions and the institution doesn't really like to be probed.
04:12No, the institution does not like to be probed.
04:15And I think that what we have seen here is over the last, I would say, over the last 15
04:24years, this has been going on since 2011, at least in the public consciousness.
04:30Buckingham Palace have always been, and when I say Buckingham Palace, I mean the institution have always been on the
04:33back foot.
04:34They have always been reacting.
04:36And I think that the strategy from senior courtiers over the last six to 12 months, where the kind of
04:43pressures really ramped up because the American Department of Justice said that they're going to release these files.
04:48And then indeed they did.
04:49And of course, no one really knew what was going to be inside, what was going to be revealed from
04:53these files.
04:54The strategy was to try and be a bit more proactive, which is why we had the king take those,
04:59make those, remove the titles from Andrew and kick him effectively out of Royal Lodge.
05:04And make those statements from Kensington Palace, from William and Catherine, saying that they had genuine concerns.
05:11And also a statement from the king saying a couple of weeks back, saying that, of course, the institution would
05:16cooperate with the police.
05:17But I think that they've continually been on the back foot.
05:22And so I think if I were one of those very senior courtiers, the king's right-hand man, Sir Clive
05:28Alderton, you would, if he hasn't, I'm sure he's a very, very smart guy.
05:33If you hadn't already, you'd be thinking, well, what can the monarchy possibly do?
05:36Because I know that some people have, on the one hand, some people have said, well, it's so lazy to
05:42say this is the greatest crisis since the abdication.
05:46Of course it isn't. It's ridiculous. It's just one man's behaviour.
05:49Very, very serious crisis. Some people are saying it's the most serious crisis since the abdication.
05:54Other people say, poppycock, it's just one man and his actions.
05:57Poppycock.
05:58Poppycock.
05:59What do you think the palace as an institution can do now?
06:05What levers can they pull?
06:07Should, as some people say, the king will be making a national address?
06:10I think it needs to get in front of it.
06:12I think it needs to concentrate on what the monarchy is going to look like in the future.
06:16Focus should be on William, I think. It's got to be leaner. It's got to be smaller.
06:21I think it needs to edit out the kind of grandeur of the past and start looking like it's something
06:25that's more fit for purpose in the 21st century.
06:28Some people have said that the king should stand aside and that we should have William and Catherine as king
06:32and queen now.
06:33Well, you've got a problem, haven't you? Because the whole point about the monarchy is that it doesn't react in
06:36that sort of way.
06:37They play a long game and also they're not subject in the way everybody else is to the kind of
06:42rising and falling tides of public opinion.
06:45Except, of course, they are, as we're finding out in this moment.
06:47So I don't know, it's very uncertain and that's what they don't like is uncertainty.
06:50No, they don't like uncertainty and they don't like transparency because I think there are some, there are a lot
06:55of people saying,
06:55well, what did Buckingham Palace know? Tell us what you know. Pour that disinfectant throughout and tell us what you
07:01knew and what you did.
07:02But we don't even know whether in 2011, in 2019, when the Newsnight interview, in 2022, when that settlement with
07:10Virginia, what was, what was done?
07:13And of course, we should repeat that Andrew Mountbatten-Windsor denies all wrongdoing.
07:17Well, I've got a question for you. Well, actually, it's a question for everyone watching.
07:21This week marks 20 years since the then Prince Charles announced his engagement to Diana Spencer.
07:26But how many times had the couple met before they decided to get married?
07:31Answer coming up.
07:37Welcome back to Catching Up with the Royals.
07:39And don't forget, you can catch up with us every Thursday wherever you get your podcasts.
07:43Or tune in to Five on Saturday and get it in lovely telly world.
07:48Now, I've left you with a question, didn't I?
07:51It was how many times had Prince Charles, as he was then, Lady Diana Spencer met before they got engaged?
07:57Well, the answer is 13, which doesn't seem like very many, does it?
08:00No. Their families had known each other for some time.
08:04And obviously, Diana's grandmother was the right-hand lady for the Queen Mother.
08:10But they had only met 13 times because, of course, Charles was dating Diana's older sister.
08:16Yeah, interesting.
08:17Diana Spencer actually grew up at Sandringham and only moved to Althorpe in Northamptonshire when her father succeeded his father.
08:25So they were around each other a lot.
08:26Neighbours.
08:27But now, listen, somebody else, somebody not seen at Sandringham for a long time, not seen anywhere, Sarah Ferguson.
08:32What's the latest, Emily, on what's happening with her?
08:36Well, she, I think ever since October, November last year, when the Epstein files started dropping from America, she hasn't
08:45been seen in public.
08:45She went to Beatrice's daughter, daughter, little baby Athena's christening in St. James's palace December last year.
08:55But I thought it was noticed, notable that neither Andrew or Fergie were pictured going into St. James's for private
09:02christening.
09:02I think since then, she has been sofa surfing, as one of the newspapers called it, staying with friends, wealthy
09:10friends, I'm sure, because she also has left Royal Lodge.
09:16There were some reports that she'd been driven into Royal Lodge to get her possessions lying down on the back
09:21of the car so she wouldn't be seen by the photographers outside.
09:26But where's she taking them? Where are her possessions going?
09:30That's a really good question. I think a lot of stuff has gone...
09:33Is it NFA? No fixed abode?
09:34No fixed abode. I think they've gone into storage.
09:37There's a suggestion that neither of Beatrice or Eugenie want her to go and stay with them because of the
09:42press attention, I think.
09:44One place where she has been publicly staying, because she recorded a video about it, is a Paracelsus, I think
09:53that's how you pronounce it,
09:54at the Paracelsus Recovery Clinic in Zurich. Cheap at the price, Richard, of £13,000 a day to stay there.
10:02She's been there for a month. £13,000 a day.
10:07You can't be serious.
10:09I'm absolutely serious. I don't expect that she will have paid for this, though. Do you?
10:14Right. Well, I don't know. I just wonder what's her value as an endorser of your product. Perhaps not so
10:19great this week.
10:19Well, she has stayed at the Paracelsus before. It prides itself... Well, we're talking about it, I suppose, so maybe
10:25there is.
10:27Although I'm not sure that you or I are their market clientele, but maybe we are, Richard.
10:34If I paid £13,000 a day to feel better about myself, I'd feel worse about myself.
10:38Yeah, I know, if you're at the Paracelsus.
10:41She has stayed there before. I mean, it's a very high-end clinic where sort of, you know, the 0
10:49.001% go and stay and have everything done for you.
10:53And, of course, we know that Sarah does like luxury and to have people waiting on her hand and foot.
11:02But she's in a pretty invidious position, isn't she? Because she's lost her home, she's lost her reputation, she's relying
11:09on the charity of her friends.
11:12I mean, I know a lot of people will say, well, she totally deserves it, she's put herself in this
11:15position, she's spent money like it's going out of fashion.
11:19But what do you think?
11:21I don't know. I mean, so much of this is dependent on stuff we don't yet know.
11:25And allegations can be made, but I'm not sure how reliably they can be stood up.
11:30Perhaps her personal habits were not always very attractive.
11:32But again, it's very hard to, I don't want to rush to judgment about these things, but it's just very
11:38hard to see an outcome that isn't pretty grim.
11:41And, of course, it's important to remember she's denied any wrongdoing and has made no comment.
11:45I mean, I wonder if, there's been reported sightings in the Gulf, right, I wonder if you find some congenial
11:52place to live out your days in some desert land where these matters don't feel they touch you, I don't
11:59know.
11:59Well, now listen, we've been getting some questions from viewers.
12:02This is from Maurice.
12:03People seem to forget that all of this Andrew drama has only come out after the late Queen died.
12:08Since then, millions of Epstein-related files have been released and changed our thoughts and opinions on both Andrew and
12:13Fergie.
12:14I don't think it's fair, says Maurice, to take out any frustrations on people like William or Kate.
12:19I personally think it's down to the late Queen giving in to Andrew and Charles not being strong enough.
12:26This saga has been going on for 15 years.
12:28It's not William, it's the older Brigade.
12:31That's tricky, isn't it?
12:32That's a very interesting question from Maurice.
12:35I think on the one hand, there are those people who feel that the late Queen should have done more,
12:40could have done more, protected Andrew.
12:43And actually, as a courtier, in fact, a number of senior courtiers said to me at the time, not now,
12:48Richard, at the time, this is in 2013, 2014, they said to me that Andrew is her Achilles heel.
12:53So that, on the other side, there are many people who feel it's very unfair to blame the late Queen,
13:00that she was a mother doing, you know, what mothers do, protecting their children.
13:05And that actually, she did react pretty brutally in 2019, after that Newsnight interview, when she made him step back
13:15as a working royal.
13:17Also, she was instrumental with her then private secretary, Sir Christopher Guyte, in making him step back as UK trade
13:24ambassador in 2011.
13:26So there were others around her were recognising this as potentially a weakness.
13:29Yes, others around her were recognising it as a weakness.
13:32I think some members of the family, of the royal family, perhaps feel that the late Queen could have done
13:39more,
13:39because, unfortunately, as we said before the break, potentially, this is going to be, the Andrew issue, is going to
13:49be the defining top line of the Carolian era.
13:55And, I know, get me, I know it's the posh name for King Charles, I had to look that one
14:00up.
14:01I feel very sorry, I think a lot of people feel very sorry for Charles, and William, and Camilla, the
14:06Queen, and Princess Catherine.
14:07Because, on the one hand, this is a family drama, played out on the most public of stages.
14:15And this is, in some ways, nothing to do with Charles, Camilla, William and Catherine, et al.
14:20But, in other ways, it's everything to do with them.
14:22I mean, anyone can identify, I think, with a mother and a favourite child, right?
14:26You would do anything, wouldn't you, to protect them from, and it's hard for you to admit that perhaps they're
14:30not in the world standing what they are in your standing.
14:33But there's a real problem here, isn't there?
14:35Now, I can see how there would be an advantage, perhaps, in, if you could say, the fault lay in
14:39a previous reign.
14:41But the Queen banked so much goodwill for the monarchy that you wouldn't want to do anything which devalued that
14:47currency, right?
14:48Absolutely. I think it's such a tricky tightrope if the members of the family, or if the palace PR, have
14:54decided that they want to try and blame, in inverted commas, the late Queen.
14:58Because she was, as a courtier once said to me, she's bomb-proof.
15:02At the end of her reign, because she'd reigned for so long with such devotion, it almost felt as if
15:07she was, you know, D.O.M. en droit, that's the motto of the royal family.
15:10It almost felt as if she wasn't just on the right of God.
15:12She was almost on the same level. And so I think that it's very tricky to sort of blame the
15:19late Queen, because then if you do that, you're kind of casting aspersions on everything that she did.
15:24On the other hand, there is a lot of merit in that position, because if you, I don't, I mean,
15:31she was an amazing, amazing woman and an amazing monarch.
15:33But if you look at actually what some of the things she did, in 2011, when this story first kind
15:38of burst onto the front pages of the newspapers, with that interview with Virginia G. Frey, and that picture, infamous
15:45picture of Andrew with his hand round Virginia G. Frey's Roberts as she was, bare waist.
15:51What did the late Queen do in the months after that, Richard? She made, she gave Andrew, her most favourite
16:00son, the highest honour that the monarch can possibly give.
16:04Business as usual.
16:05Yeah, well, not even business as usual. She made him a Knight Grand Cross of the Royal Victorian Order, which
16:13is the robes that you see on Garter Day when he was, you know, sort of parading in the flummery.
16:18And it's reserved for the most senior of senior royals, isn't it?
16:21Absolutely. You don't even get it just by being a member of the royal family. It's the monarch's direct gift.
16:27So I think we have to ask ourselves, what was the culture within the institution that enabled Andrew to be
16:36protected?
16:37And of course, we must remember that Prince Andrew has denied any accusations of wrongdoing.
16:43That was a great question for Maurice, and we love to hear your questions or your comments.
16:47Please do email in to royals at spirit-studios.com, and Richard and I will endeavour to answer all of
16:56your questions.
16:57And don't forget, if you're watching us on YouTube, please do hit subscribe to Catching Up The Royals to make
17:03sure that you are always caught up with the latest royal news.
17:08This one's just running and running, Emily, and I'm wondering, with your experience, what it's like, what is it like
17:13backstage at the palace when a crisis like this hits?
17:16Well, they're actually pretty calm.
17:18I remember during when Harry and Meghan, the last kind of, I suppose, this is not, comparisons are invidious, Richard,
17:25and I'm not comparing what's happening with Andrew, but just the sort of the levers and the machinery when the
17:32crisis hits the palace.
17:33Yes, I guess the last time this happened was in 2020, when Harry and Meghan announced that they were leaving.
17:38People remain very calm. Calmness is a highly prized temperament with those who work in the palace and civil servants.
17:46If this hasn't been done already, and I really hope it has, but maybe it hasn't been done already,
17:50they will be going through all their own documentation, going through all their emails, who knew what when, members of
17:58staff, former members of staff, and also I think...
18:01An internal inquiry.
18:02An internal inquiry, briefing notes for the principals, William, Prince of Wales, and obviously King Charles.
18:08The King and Prince William will also be involved in meetings to discuss the strategy going forward, what can they
18:14do?
18:15But I do think, and I know that Prince William has already looked at all of this, and he's told
18:21us this in his own words,
18:22but not pertaining to, obviously, the Andrew Mountbatten story, but I think that they need to look at the culture.
18:29So why was Andrew protected? A lot of people are asking, why was Andrew protected for so long?
18:35Why were young women waved into Buckingham Palace or Windsor Castle without proper logged-in security?
18:42They were just... Apparently, Andrew would say, Mrs Windsor's arriving, can you just show her in?
18:48Mrs Windsor.
18:48Mrs Windsor. There's now allegations from former government ministers, from the coalition.
18:55So I think that the Palace, if they haven't done so already, have to have their own internal inquiry.
18:59Whether we will ever learn what the results of that are, Richard, I doubt it,
19:04because, of course, there was an internal inquiry into staff bullying by the Duchess of Sussex.
19:11That was never, ever... Those allegations were never released.
19:15It's interesting about why didn't they ask the questions, because the questions hadn't quite formed.
19:19I was reading up about Pitch at the... I was at Pitch at the Palace through my involvement with the
19:23University of Northampton.
19:25Remind us when that was.
19:26That was 2014, I think.
19:30Now, I don't remember... I went there because the University of Northampton puts a lot of investment in getting our
19:34students out into entrepreneurial roles and stuff.
19:37So it was exactly the kind of thing that we were interested in doing.
19:39I don't remember having anything really of substance in my mind, any particular concerns about Prince Andrew.
19:47And I assumed, as he was then, I assumed that all this stuff that subsequently came out had not yet
19:52come out.
19:52But when I look at the dates, actually, there had been discussion about it before then.
19:56But for some reason, that just... I didn't even know that Prince Andrew was involved with it, I think.
20:00We just went there and he made a speech. Actually, rather a good speech.
20:02It sort of surprised me that it was a good speech.
20:05But I think perhaps that tells you that we hadn't yet reached critical mass with our concerns about Prince Andrew.
20:11They hadn't quite reached that point where all of a sudden you start thinking, why is this happening?
20:16I think that the Me Too movement in 2020-21 as well has had quite a big effect on people's
20:23attitude.
20:24When that interview was first published in 2011 with Virginia, I think that's such a good point you make about
20:29Pitch at Palace and how people felt.
20:31Because I don't think it really permeated the public consciousness.
20:34Yes, there have been newspaper reports, but there was still that feeling that monarchy could do no wrong.
20:39And surely it can't be right. Surely a member of the royal family couldn't be guilty of this.
20:43I think maybe there was some concern about Prince Andrew, but it was outweighed by the significance of the event.
20:49And it was only really after the interview with Emily Maitlis that all of a sudden you thought, oh gosh,
20:54this is really bad.
20:55Yeah. And as a courtier said to me, I mean, was the late Queen expected to go through every email
21:00that her son was sending?
21:02And I'm sure, were she still to be alive, she would be devastated.
21:06And also, would people have perhaps wanted to protect her from perhaps one of the less savoury aspects of alleged
21:14behaviour of his part?
21:15I don't know.
21:16Richard.
21:16Yes.
21:17We're going to bring a little bit more levity in.
21:20And so we're going to talk about our beautiful Princess of Wales.
21:22So I have a question for you.
21:25Yeah.
21:25About when she was still Kate Middleton.
21:29When William Wales and Kate Middleton were studying at St Andrews University, do you know what they studied as their
21:39degree?
21:40I think I do.
21:42Well, tell me after the break.
21:50Welcome back to Catching Up With The Royals.
21:52You can listen to a new episode every Thursday, wherever you get your podcasts.
21:55You can see us on five every Saturday.
21:58And there's always our YouTube channel, Catching Up With The Royals.
22:02Don't forget to subscribe.
22:04So, Richard.
22:06Hello.
22:07Degrees.
22:08Do you know what Kate and William studies?
22:10I think I do.
22:11Because I think they did, it's one of the, like, posh people degrees, which I think was art history.
22:15You're absolutely right.
22:17But there's a catch.
22:19So both of them started off studying art history.
22:22And Kate Catherine, Princess Catherine, as we call her now, graduated with a Master of Arts, an MA, from, like,
22:29a posh person that she is.
22:31But William switched.
22:33He almost left St Andrews because he felt it maybe wasn't the right course.
22:38And he was, Kate was one of the people who convinced him to stay, but he switched to geography.
22:42So he actually graduated with a geography degree.
22:44Oh, from art history to geography.
22:45That's interesting.
22:47I suppose if you are, I mean, the Royal Picture Collection gives you plenty of homework to be getting on
22:52with.
22:52Or perhaps a little bit too much.
22:53Definitely.
22:54William and Catherine, they have been keeping calm and carrying on this week.
22:59We've seen quite a bit of them.
23:00They were at the BAFTAs last Sunday.
23:03Catherine went to watch England be smashed in the rugby at Twickenham.
23:09The Prince of Wales has been out and about.
23:13And there's a new book by a friend of mine, Russell Myers.
23:18He has written a new book.
23:19Official or unofficial?
23:21Unofficial.
23:22Okay.
23:22Unofficial.
23:23He didn't interview William and Catherine.
23:25But I think he did interview quite a few courtiers to try and get the ultimate and the intimate inside
23:33story.
23:34When that happens, how arranged is it?
23:38I mean, courtiers are famously like clams, aren't they?
23:41Unless they are at liberty not to be.
23:43Well, everybody signs an NDA.
23:46It's standard practice now at all the Royal Palaces for everyone to sign non-disclosure agreements.
23:52I think, so to answer your excellent question as to why someone would speak, I think you have to ask
24:00yourself what is their personal agenda.
24:02So it might be that they probably speak on conditions of anonymity.
24:08I don't think Russell had anyone quoted per se in the book.
24:13But if you look at the acknowledgements, he has thanked quite a few people, including Simon Case, the former cabinet
24:22secretary, and the Prince of Wales' former private secretary.
24:25He's thanked Jason Knauth, who was William and Catherine's and indeed Harry and Meghan's communications secretary, and is now chief
24:34executive of the Earthshot Prize.
24:36So there's quite a lot of few people named.
24:38And I guess, why would those people speak?
24:41Well, I think to maybe clarify things to further the Royal PR.
24:56Well, I wonder if it's kind of like soft power rather than hard power, yeah?
25:00I think that when books are written about the royal family, and I, there's very, I think Jonathan Dimbleby did
25:10an official biography of Prince Charles.
25:14But I'm sure I'll be corrected.
25:16I'm probably wrong.
25:17To my mind, that's the only official biography that was done, obviously, with Charles's, the then Prince of Wales' input.
25:27There's never been a book on William or Catherine that's been done with their official input.
25:34And I know everybody has always tried to, for instance, talk to Catherine's family and wants to try and talk
25:40to the Middletons.
25:41I think the only person who's ever talked unofficially is Gary Goldsmith.
25:45The story is that, what I heard was that the now Princess of Wales was slightly hesitant before taking on
25:52that title, though it came with the job, I guess.
25:54What was the reason for that?
25:55I think she felt, and that's absolutely correct, and we were told at the time in 2022, and actually I
26:04was told before 2022, when, you know, the Queen was in her 90s,
26:10and so it was going to happen that William would become iconic Prince of Wales, Princess Diana.
26:17And I think when so much has been written about one woman, and so much has been, I think because
26:24she died so young, she was 37, I think, and so much was written about her.
26:30And I think it was quite terrifying to have to take on all of that historical hinterland.
26:42And when she did become Princess of Wales, we were briefed that she would do it in her way.
26:51Of course.
26:52Because I think she was just very worried, Catherine was just worried about the expectations.
26:57And I think she puts a lot, she does put a lot of pressure on herself, Catherine.
27:02Of course, Catherine could have said, I don't want to be the Princess of Wales.
27:05Of course, Camilla could have been the Princess of Wales.
27:09She was married to the Prince of Wales.
27:11Of course, she wasn't.
27:12She was the Duchess of Cornwall.
27:14Catherine could have stayed the Duchess of Cambridge.
27:16She could have been the Prince of Wales and the Duchess of Cambridge.
27:19She stopped being the Duchess of Cambridge when she became the Princess of Wales.
27:22No.
27:23So she's got that in the bag, as it were.
27:25She's got that in the bag.
27:26How do you think she's doing?
27:27I think she's done a pretty good job, actually.
27:29I mean, I think she's not like her mother-in-law, but she's respectful of her mother-in-law's inheritance,
27:34I would say.
27:35But I think she's managed to do pretty much her own thing.
27:38And she's been very calm and confident, or appeared to be calm and confident and steady.
27:42It's a tough gig.
27:43I think she's made quite a good job of it so far.
27:45What do you think?
27:46I agree.
27:47She hasn't put a sort of a court, a high-heeled court shoe wrong, really.
27:52And I think what we were talking about before the break, when we were talking about what next for the
27:57royal family, what can they do?
28:00Surely a big part of that is the Princess of Wales.
28:04Yeah.
28:05I like the way that also her kind of commitment to family life, that's front and centre, that's good.
28:10I think she handled the whole business over her cancer diagnosis.
28:14I thought that was done very well, too.
28:16So I think she's making a kind of good impression.
28:21And you can see that she is evolving into the role.
28:26I've never met her, I don't think.
28:27You have, I think, Emily.
28:29Yes, many times.
28:31I think one of the great things about Catherine is that you don't know what she's thinking.
28:38You do when you're chatting to her off, you know, off the record.
28:42And these meetings that, you know, like when I've been invited to Kensington Palace for drinks or when we're on
28:48an aeroplane together or when we're in a, you know, on a royal tour when you're chatting to them.
28:53She and I are the same age.
28:55It is like just chatting to, you know, someone, you know, it's not quite like chatting to one of my
29:02mum friends.
29:02But obviously we're kind of, we've got kids the same age.
29:05And so we've chatted about our kids.
29:07We chatted about hairstyles.
29:08I mean, I remember once complimenting her on her hair and she was like, oh, do you think I was,
29:13I was really worried about it?
29:14She had a new fringe cut.
29:15Charlotte's just after Charlotte had been born.
29:17I mean, she has the same, she has the same kind of insecurities quite endearingly as the rest of us.
29:24And she's got a cracking sense of humour, Richard.
29:27She's got quite a naughty sense of humour, which you don't see in public.
29:32And I think that's either that's a curation from her.
29:36I don't think it is a curation.
29:37I don't think she's decided to put this kind of game face on.
29:41I think she's actually quite shy.
29:43She finds the public facing bits of the job or has done in the past.
29:47Really quite tricky.
29:49I mean, when the Duchess of Sussex was on the scene and she was so good at it.
29:53So there were comparisons drawn about how Kate wasn't as good, etc.
29:58But I think it's a misunderstanding of the personality of both women.
30:03I was told a long time ago that Catherine married William in spite of the job.
30:10In the same way that she was nervous about taking on the mantle of Princess of Wales, she does feel
30:17the pressure.
30:18But I think she has really grown into it.
30:21And I think that ability of her not to tell us what she's thinking and to sort of always appear
30:27as if she's keeping calm.
30:29I bet she's not inside.
30:30It's actually quite important.
30:33So, Emily, Prince William also, there's been some comment about a statement.
30:37He was on the radio, on Radio 1, last week, talking about his mental health.
30:42I take a long time trying to understand my emotions and why I feel like I do.
30:45I feel that's a really important process every now and again to check in with yourself and work out why
30:50you're feeling like you do.
30:51Some people thought that that sounded a bit cloth-eared or a bit tin-eared, considering the aggro he's had
30:58in his own family life with his brother.
31:00What do you think?
31:01I thought that was really interesting.
31:03Because on the one hand, it's great.
31:05Mental health has always been something that he and Harry and Catherine have spoken a lot about.
31:11Heads Together famously, they launched.
31:12He had some really good parenting advice, actually.
31:16He said on the Radio 1, this men's mental health, that how, you know, as a parent, you always try
31:23and want to fix things for your kids.
31:24And often, you just can't.
31:25And listening is the most important thing.
31:27But you're right.
31:27A lot of people have criticised William and said, hang on a sec.
31:30You're talking about mental health.
31:33But yet, you haven't been able to make up with your brother.
31:40You haven't been able.
31:42And your brother's talked about his mental health and how it's affected him and how the institution affected him.
31:47And yet, you've cut off your brother for talking about his mental health.
31:52But what's interesting here is that it's the younger people in that kind of crucial 18 to 36-year-old
31:57age group.
31:58Is that Gen Z?
31:59It is Gen Z.
32:00It's interesting that the Prince of Wales choose to go on Radio 1, which is kind of like his natural
32:04habitat.
32:05You can do that without looking like he's a fish out of water.
32:07But it's precisely, though, that listenership which might struggle to understand how you can speak so openly about the importance
32:14of mental health.
32:15And at the same time, seem to have such an unworked relationship with your own brother.
32:19But that's not unusual, is it?
32:20Family dramas.
32:21Their family dramas, though, are like kind of in Technicolor and Panavision, aren't they?
32:26It must be so hard for every different facet of royal life when the private is played out on such
32:38a public stage.
32:39And maybe for William's own mental health.
32:41I mean, I don't want to obviously speak, Prince William can speak for himself.
32:44But maybe for his own mental health, he's had to take that decision to cut his brother off.
32:49Because there was so much else that he was dealing with, his wife's cancer diagnosis, his father trying to deal
32:55with the whole Andrew Mountbatten-Windsor threat to the institution.
32:58That maybe it was just one more, the Harry issue was just one more thing that he just can't deal
33:03with.
33:03And it ain't over till the fat lady sings, to use a slightly inelegant phrase.
33:07Tell you one thing about Gen Z, though.
33:08They love Princess Diana.
33:10Do they?
33:10Well, I just saw some figures that apparently on TikTok, billions and billions and billions of views of Princess Diana
33:17material from people who weren't born when she was alive.
33:21What's that about, do you think?
33:23Is it because Gen Z see Princess Diana now as history?
33:28Oh.
33:29That makes me feel very old, Richard.
33:31Tell me about it.
33:32I'm not going to, let's not either of us ask how, let's not either of us have to give away
33:38our ages.
33:38But we both feel very old because, of course, we both remember where we were when Princess Diana died and
33:43all that kind of thing.
33:44Well, actually, what people are interested in are the kind of, well, it was the hospital visits.
33:49It was that part of her, it was the princess or the Queen of Hearts version of Diana.
33:53There's the one that seems to be getting the traction.
33:55That's what they're looking at.
33:57Maybe in that, that's a future for the monarchy that you can try to kind of work up that stuff
34:03and, again, restore interest and trust in the institution for the generations to come.
34:07Could Princess Diana save the monarchy in the 2020s?
34:11I wonder why.
34:12Do you think we need somebody like that in our public lives?
34:15That's so interesting.
34:16And that maybe speaks to the fact that perhaps the age of deference is over and that people view the
34:25royal family in a much less deferential way now.
34:29But if those pictures of Princess Diana kind of talking to AIDS victims, talking to people who've lost limbs in,
34:39you know, Angola landmines, that kind of common touch, to use a much vaunted phrase, if that's the shorts, to
34:49use the Gen Z expression, if that's the video shorts that are getting traction.
34:53And that's really interesting because it sort of speaks to an opinion of royalty that is quite enduring then.
35:00And that can be, that leverage can be very valuable.
35:02For example, did you know, this is a question, right?
35:05It's been nearly two years since Catherine revealed she'd been diagnosed with cancer.
35:09Following her, the announcement of the NHS said visits to their cancer information pages increased by what percentage?
35:16You'll tell me after the break.
35:23Welcome back to Catching Up with the Royals.
35:25We left you with a question, which was, by what percentage did inquiries to cancer support information lines increase after
35:32Catherine Princess Wells announced her cancer diagnosis?
35:35The answer, 373%.
35:38Wow.
35:39Now that's great, isn't it, that you can so focus people's attention that they'll make that call because that could
35:43save people a lot of heartache down the line.
35:46And that's why the King, I think, wanted to be so open with his cancer diagnosis.
35:51We don't, obviously, we still don't know what Catherine and the King, what type of cancer it was.
35:57But regardless, every time there was, even on their kind of trajectory when they told us, when Catherine told us
36:04she was in remission and then she was clear of cancer,
36:07every time that happened, there was a huge uptick in people getting checked, reporting various different types of cancer, which
36:14is brilliant.
36:14That's really good. It's an odd thing, isn't it? Imagine having your personal health private details sort of typed up
36:22and stuck on the railings of Buckingham Palace.
36:24How do the Royals, what's health care if you're a Royal like?
36:29There is a position which is physician to the Monarch and at the moment it's held by Dr Michael Dixon.
36:35He was appointed by the King himself.
36:39A personal appointment.
36:39A personal appointment. It's a personal appointment by the monarch. And whenever you're on a royal tour, and certainly when
36:45I've done royal tours with Charles and Camilla, there's always been a doctor in attendance.
36:50He or she, normally he, has come everywhere with us.
36:54Don't they travel with their blood group as well? They're like blood bags with their right blood group?
36:59Yes, or the ambassador, the embassy of wherever we'd be visiting, make sure that all of that is ready just
37:05in case, in the same way as we always have to carry black ties or black suits with us just
37:09in case.
37:09But I think that the position of physician to the monarch is obviously a personal appointment because Dr Michael Dixon
37:19is very aligned to Charles's interests in homeopathic remedies.
37:29Oh, right. So alternative remedies would be one of the reasons perhaps why he's got that gig.
37:35Yes. And the King himself is very interested in herbalism and I think faith healing.
37:43And I was wondering, Richard, if, sorry, I hope you don't mind me asking as a former vicar, what, so
37:49herbalism obviously is using nature's natural medicines.
37:53And actually, even in kind of pharmaceutical medicine, a lot of stuff, I am not a scientist, by the way,
37:57but I understand that in pharmaceutical medicine, a lot of stuff does come obviously from what's grown in the earth.
38:03But herbalism is a particular distilled type of this. But faith healing, that's something that the King's very interested in.
38:09What is that?
38:10Well, in some religious traditions, it's very kind of, you know, you will literally pray for remedy or healing or
38:16for any particular ailment or disease.
38:19In other traditions, it's more general than that. You just pray for someone's well-being and health, I guess.
38:23Yes. And there is some evidence that how the patient feels can have a big influence on their clinical performance,
38:31you know what I mean, the placebo effect.
38:33So I think, I don't think there's anything in it which is necessarily harmful. I don't know.
38:38No, I agree. GPs have said to me, as GP friends of mine have said, that psychosomatic, how you feel
38:44about your illness or diagnosis or whatever it is,
38:49has a really important part to play and how quickly you get better.
38:53But I would say, I probably think it ill-advised to stand on one leg and pray to Osiris rather
38:58than get chemotherapy, for example.
39:00So this has to be kind of sensibly done.
39:03Yeah, absolutely. And obviously the Royals can use the NHS. Of course they can. Like you or I, they can
39:10use the NHS.
39:10And in fact, the Duchess of Edinburgh, Sophie, had both of her children on the NHS at Frimley Park Hospital.
39:17She went to Frimley Park because it was the nearest to her home. And actually, Lady Louise, Sophie and Edward's
39:22daughter, did nearly die.
39:24So that was, it was such an emergency and she had such good care at Frimley Park. That's why she
39:28went back and had her son, James.
39:31It puzzles me a little bit because it's often said, isn't it, that private healthcare, private hospitals, where you might
39:38go if you're a person of that importance, are fine for some things, but not for others.
39:41And if you had a medical crisis, you'd want to be in a general hospital, wouldn't you? In a place
39:45where there was enough medical expertise to give you what you needed.
39:48Sort of pre-arranged things like operations, the Royals do use private healthcare. For instance, the King and Princess of
39:55Wales in 2024, in January, they both went to the London Clinic for a prostate operation for Charles and for
40:03abdominal surgery for Catherine.
40:06And then, of course, subsequently, both of them were then found to have cancer. And of course, Kate went to
40:11the Royal Marsden to have her cancer treatment.
40:13So there's, there is a combination often used of NHS and private.
40:19And of course, I remember when Princess Diana was pregnant with William, whenever she went anywhere, the kind of head
40:28Ops and Gynae consultant in that, wherever that was, was kind of put on alert.
40:32Because obviously, if something were to happen, you'd need to have the best expertise immediately available, right?
40:38They do get fantastic healthcare.
40:40They do.
40:41No queuing in A&E.
40:43No queuing in A&E for them.
40:45Absolutely not.
40:45And they can choose where they, if it's something pre-arranged.
40:49I mean, I know babies come when they want, but a birth or an operation or something like that, obviously,
40:56that can be scheduled, then they can have the very best.
41:00And I think also, I think that doctors, you know, actually, in Tudor times, as much as modern times, doctors
41:09act as psychologists, psychiatrists, counsellors.
41:14I mean, it is an intimate relationship, sometimes literally an intimate relationship, isn't it, with the medic?
41:19Absolutely.
41:19So you want to have someone that you get on with and that you form a relationship with.
41:24Yeah.
41:24And I think that I know that certainly among the younger members of the royal family, many of them have
41:31had sort of counselling and sort of had, you know, help with mental health issues.
41:37And obviously, you want it always to be with the same person.
41:40I should say, though, that obviously, when it comes to the health of the royal family, there are certain guidelines
41:48by which all broadcasters, newspapers, print have to abide by, which we have to abide by, Richard.
41:53But part of the reason, I think, that there was that whole, do you remember, two years ago, when Kate
41:59had abdominal surgery, and then she kind of was recovering at home, and the internet blew up with all sorts
42:06of awful suggestions that people were saying to get clicks or hits and monetise.
42:14And of course, they weren't regulated.
42:16So, you know, there's that old saying, isn't there, that a lie can get halfway around the world before the
42:24truth has got their boots on.
42:25And so all these lies were being said about their health.
42:29And of course, no one could kind of correct any of these things, because we, as journalists, had to wait
42:36for the palace to say, it's this or it's that and the other.
42:39Accepting the credentials of the ambassador of the court of St. James, everyone's talking about your gallstones.
42:44It's a very odd thing, isn't it?
42:46I know.
42:47That the sort of access we expect to get and think is proper.
42:51And yet also you're trying to live a private life.
42:53No, I don't want my medical conditions, not that they're very exciting, discussed.
42:57No, do you think that we expect too much?
42:59Do you think we, as the public, expect too much?
43:01I think we ask impossible things all the time.
43:03I think it's an impossible role, and that's one of the reasons why we have these conversations, isn't it?
43:07Yeah, we want to know about their private lives, but then we also don't want to know about their private
43:11lives.
43:11We want to know about their medical, we want to know, and then we complain as, why haven't they told
43:16us what cancer they're suffering?
43:17We want them to be like us, we want them to be not like us.
43:19Well, thank you very much, everybody.
43:21Now, if you want to catch up with Catching Up With Royals, you can do that wherever you get your
43:24social media.
43:26You can find us on 5 as well on a Saturday if you want to do it that way.
43:29However you connect with us, we're delighted to.
43:31If you do please get in touch with your questions, which we will endeavour to answer.
43:34Please do email royals at spirit-studios.com, and Richard and I will do a deep dive.
43:40That's all from the show.
43:41It never complains, and yet always explains.
43:45See you next week.
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