- hace 2 semanas
El expresidente afirmó que en el segundo tiempo del gobierno de Gustavo Petro es crucial promover la reconciliación institucional y buscar la inclusión de sectores excluidos. Según Samper, aunque el presidente ha enfrentado dificultades, le ha faltado dinamismo a su gobierno.
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00:07Hello, welcome to another episode of The Espectador.
00:10The day of today we are with the President Ernesto Samper.
00:12Welcome, President.
00:14Thank you very much.
00:15Thank you for accepting the invitation.
00:17We are going to talk about several topics.
00:19Let's start with the Coyuntura.
00:21The day of today is Venezuela.
00:22You were in Caracas last week in Calidad of Veedor.
00:26I was going to ask you a little bit about it.
00:28We see that since they came to know the results
00:31that they came to Maduro as a great winner,
00:34there was a lot of revuelo, not only in Venezuela,
00:37but at the international level.
00:38And the President Gustavo Petroquellatrino
00:41spoke even of a violent polarization.
00:44Can you see this issue?
00:47Is there any risk of stability in the region?
00:52Well, it was a bit surprising.
00:54Because the truth is that the same campaign was alegre,
01:00complicated.
01:02In Mexico, in the campaign,
01:05there were 300 assassinations of candidates.
01:08Here there was no episode of lamenting the day of the election.
01:13We were able to meet the voters.
01:15We were able to meet the positions of voting.
01:18We were able to meet them.
01:21It was a campaign in peace.
01:24And the other positive thing is that
01:26the Venezuelan system is a system quite secure.
01:30Yes, that's a good thing.
01:31Because, as you can see the vote of electronic
01:33and that that vote works with huellas,
01:35not with cédula,
01:37it has a system of manual control
01:39in which contrasts the votes electronic
01:42with the votes that are deposited
01:45from the same machine that they come in a conventional.
01:48So, one would have thought
01:51that there would be no more difficulties.
01:54However, when they began to demoralize the results
01:58and the government talked about
02:00that there was a telematic hack
02:02and the opposition, with reason,
02:04began to worry about it
02:06and had the data that favoured them.
02:10In that moment,
02:11they began to move things up to where they are.
02:14I think that
02:15what comes forward is,
02:17well, of course,
02:19has intervened the international community,
02:21but it's fundamental
02:23that the electoral electoral
02:25revele the actas.
02:28Because there is where it is.
02:30There is the truth
02:31of what actually happened.
02:33In the contrary,
02:35while there is no doubt
02:36that if there is a certain incertidumbre
02:37I see threats
02:40to the public order
02:41and the same aislamment of the country,
02:44I would look for a way
02:47to make the political forces
02:48to make sure
02:50that they will make sure
02:52to validate the results
02:53that, of course,
02:54has to present the electoral authority.
02:57However,
02:58have passed three days
02:59from the elections
03:00and they are not revealed
03:01these acts of votation, and there is a certain nervousness, even here in Colombia.
03:08I wanted to ask you a little bit about the implications in the country in terms of how Venezuela has
03:13been a great ally in the negotiations of peace, for example.
03:17Yes, it is true.
03:20Venezuela has had, since they have established relations,
03:24Venezuela has had an exemplar with the peace process of Colombia.
03:28He has been a great ally, not only in terms of logistics, but also as a facilitator, as a amiable
03:34mediator.
03:35No forgets the situation that existed for two or three years.
03:41We were challenging Venezuela from the border with the secretary of the OEA,
03:46announcing practically an invasion of Venezuela.
03:51I think the situation was really unsustainable.
03:54That's why one expects this establishment of the relations with Venezuela,
04:00the opening dialogue of Venezuela with the United States to raise the economic sanctions,
04:07this peace environment that was living,
04:10the reactivation of the economy that feels in Venezuela.
04:15Even if they have been detained in Venezuela,
04:17even if they have been detained in Venezuela to Colombia,
04:20there are very positive things to protect.
04:24And I don't think that the solution is that the people get out of the street,
04:29or that there are some kind of media accounts,
04:32or that the government get out of the police and the public force to control it.
04:38I would still hope that they can make an agreement between the political forces in Venezuela
04:46with an international support,
04:49an international support,
04:51not that they replace them,
04:52but this is what they have to do with the Venezuelans between them,
04:55to validate the results that they have to promulgar the electoral
04:59and, above all, to pact a national government.
05:04I think that whoever the winner had to have had to seek a national agreement,
05:12Venezuela cannot continue in this level of confrontation.
05:15That is a little bit of the hand of the recommendations
05:18that you made with the president of the Dominican Republic
05:21regarding all this situation.
05:23Of course, we think that no only we have to validate the elections,
05:29of course that we want to know what happened,
05:31but that ahead of us,
05:34we would have to impose a national agreement
05:38for that there is a shared government,
05:40for that we should sustain the reactivation of the economy,
05:44for that the United States would take away the sanctions to Venezuela,
05:48that has 920 sanctions.
05:51It is to say,
05:52Venezuela came to caer a 180.000 barrels of production of petrol
05:57when it had 3.500.000,
05:59that does not resist any country.
06:01For that,
06:01to remove the huella of this kind of alternative government
06:05to which they entregaron
06:06the resources of Venezuela in the exterior
06:09in a way absolutely temer,
06:11irresponsible,
06:13the Mr. Guaidó.
06:14So,
06:14I think there are some things
06:16that could assume
06:19compartidamente
06:20the government and the opposition
06:22for that there is
06:23a government
06:24in which they are represented
06:26all.
06:27President,
06:27in that sense,
06:28do you see that
06:29it is the moment
06:30of a political
06:32and generational
06:33in Venezuela?
06:33And I tell you that
06:35that the President Petro
06:37already talked about
06:37but it took three days
06:39to do it.
06:39Other presidents
06:40of the same court
06:41like the Democratic Party
06:42have had that same question,
06:44AMLO,
06:45Lula,
06:46the only one that was very clear
06:47was Boric.
06:47I have the question for all
06:49Latin America.
06:50I think we are
06:51in trouble
06:52with the issue
06:52of the election.
06:54I think
06:55we have to learn
06:56the leaders
06:57who have already
06:58have been
06:59to that
07:00our role
07:01is to open space
07:02to the new generations.
07:03But,
07:04of course,
07:05all of that
07:05has to be confirmed
07:08democratic.
07:08It is not
07:11to exclude
07:11the democratic
07:12to impose
07:13a person
07:14certain characteristics.
07:16But,
07:17I think
07:17I think
07:18that
07:19America
07:20has to open
07:21the excessive
07:22presidentialism
07:23that includes
07:24the election
07:25to a
07:26system
07:27parlamentarist
07:28in which
07:28the election
07:29is seen
07:30and not as
07:32epic
07:33battles
07:34between tribes.
07:35It is a little
07:36similar to
07:37what happened
07:38with the presidentialism
07:39but I will ask
07:40that.
07:40I wanted to ask you
07:42a little bit
07:42about the
07:43committee
07:43asesor
07:44of the
07:44foreign relations
07:44that the
07:45president
07:45would have
07:46asked me
07:46a letter
07:51before the election
07:53of Venezuela.
07:55I think
07:56one of the
07:57topics
07:58to show
07:59the president
08:00is
08:01that he managed
08:02to open
08:02international
08:03space
08:03international.
08:05In Colombia
08:05they are
08:06consulting
08:06Brazil
08:07and Mexico
08:09in the region
08:10which is
08:10where I move.
08:13But,
08:14there are other
08:14issues.
08:15The issue
08:16of the
08:17bilateral relations
08:18with Venezuela.
08:20The issue
08:21of the
08:22limits
08:22that are
08:23still
08:23with Nicaragua.
08:26The issue
08:26of negotiation
08:27with Nicaragua
08:28is
08:29necessary
08:30to
08:30for
08:30to
08:31the
08:31conditions
08:32of
08:32life.
08:33I think
08:33that
08:37part of
08:39the
08:40polarization
08:41that we are
08:41seeing today
08:42in Colombia
08:42is that
08:43these places
08:44that we could
08:45find
08:46we could
08:48find
08:50to
08:51to
08:52decisions.
08:54It's
08:54to
08:54hear
08:54the
08:55president.
08:57So,
08:58I sent
08:59a letter
08:59to
08:59the
09:00president
09:01asking
09:03what
09:04he is doing
09:05international
09:06including
09:07the
09:08COP16
09:09for
09:10example,
09:11Colombia
09:11will have to
09:12have the
09:12president of
09:13the
09:14CELAC,
09:15the
09:16UNASUR,
09:17the
09:18Brazil,
09:20the
09:21community
09:22and
09:22the
09:22Caribbean
09:23has
09:24never
09:25had
09:27coincided
09:28these
09:29presidents.
09:29I think
09:30they will have to
09:31take advantage of
09:32this
09:32to
09:32move
09:33to
09:33the
09:34There
09:36is
09:38a
09:38issue
09:40with
09:41the
09:41president
09:43of
09:44of
09:45the
09:48president
09:48of
09:48the
09:49the
09:51president
09:56of
09:58.
09:58the
09:58president
09:58of
09:58the
09:59president
09:59of
09:59of
09:59the
09:59the
09:59government
09:59of
10:00the
10:00president
10:01of
10:01the
10:01government
10:02the
10:02is
10:02is
10:02a
10:06place
10:06and
10:27and can be seen and can be recognized.
10:29That is important.
10:31Democracy is not only to vote for each other for the one who wants,
10:33but democracy is to have a behavior of recognizing the other,
10:37of recognizing the other's rights,
10:40of seeing the other a legitimate contradiction.
10:43That has a lot to do with the following thing that I wanted to ask,
10:45and it is that the 7th of August, which is the next week,
10:48we are at port of the two first years of government
10:51of the president Gustavo Petro.
10:53We have already finished this first time.
10:55Of course, of this second time,
10:57because it has been a government that has been characterized
10:59by being a little bit on the defensive
11:00of the questions of the financing of his campaign,
11:03and there are several fronts that he has had to be there
11:06at the defensive.
11:07What is the moment now in this second time?
11:10I think, like in the case of Venezuela,
11:13it is a moment of reconciliation institutional,
11:18of incorporating sectors that feel outside the government.
11:22Also, it is true that he has had huge enemies,
11:26huge enemies, and in many cases,
11:29they have taken the hand.
11:30Yes, you have talked about the golpe blando.
11:32The golpe blando and the lawfare,
11:35which is the judicialization of the politics.
11:38If the president has not been like a little,
11:40there is no one who has been there,
11:41there is no one who has been there,
11:42he has been, in some way, defending himself.
11:45Of course, I think it is so that
11:48there is no one who has been there,
11:49and there is no one who has been there,
11:50if there are lines of what he wants,
11:54but there is also a great resistance to change,
11:57and there is also a lack of dynamism from the government.
12:02He has two years.
12:03Además, I learned that the first year
12:08one can see where the controls are,
12:12where the steering wheel is,
12:13and what difficulties has the plane.
12:16Yeah, the second year I can't go more quietly,
12:18the third year is the year of starting to rematch.
12:22If you could give a message to the president,
12:25what would it be?
12:27That listen to more and listen to me.
12:31The president,
12:33and speaking a little bit about the left-in-law,
12:35this is the first-wing-law of the left-in-law
12:37and a little bit of the fear that they have from that sector,
12:40that it is that it is FUME,
12:40of the right-in-law of the right-in-law of the right-in-law of the right-in-law
12:46of the right-in-law.
12:47That is a very good question.
12:50I think, of all ways,
12:51to the country
12:53will be the pedagogy
12:55of that
12:56a people,
12:58to be honest,
12:59or a group of Colombians
13:00that never had had the possibility of asomarse at the power,
13:05because the power is at the hands of a establishment,
13:08they had the opportunity,
13:10some of them was bad, some of them was fine,
13:13but at least I think that that serves to strengthen the democracy.
13:18No only there is a privilege that has the capacity to handle it.
13:23In fact, that is part of the problem that has the government.
13:26You know, a sector of the society that is accustomed to govern,
13:31that came to the opposition and does not know how to do opposition,
13:34and a sector that has never been able to govern,
13:36that has never been able to govern and does not know how to govern.
13:38They are going to prend the ones and the others,
13:41and that I think that the saldo is going to be positive.
13:44How do you see the relationship with the Congress?
13:46You have been in the political militant in the Liberal Party for three decades,
13:50if I am not mistaken.
13:51How do you see the relationship with the Congress?
13:56There we go on in the future of the presidencialism.
13:58The presidencialism convierte la relación entre el Ejecutivo y el Congreso,
14:03lo convierte en una especie de negociación diaria,
14:08de una relación muy personal, muy al detalle.
14:13Muy al detalle.
14:14En un esquema parlamentarista,
14:17pues simplemente se entiende con las bancadas,
14:19hay unas bancadas que están en contra,
14:21que están a favor, pero votan consistentemente.
14:23Yo creo que tenemos que avanzar hacia un sistema semi-parlamentario.
14:31Expresidente, para ir cambiando un poco de tema,
14:34usted llegó al poder hace 30 años exactamente, en el 94.
14:38¿En qué está usted hoy?
14:41¿Celegrando los 30?
14:42No, mira, la verdad es que,
14:45por supuesto que mis enemigos todavía a estas alturas van a querer caer,
14:49me recuerden por el 8000 y por todo el proceso y todo eso,
14:53pero yo creo que la gente ha entendido que mi gobierno fue mucho más que eso
15:00y yo espero que me recuerden por el Ministerio de Cultura,
15:04por el CISBEN,
15:06por lo que hice, por los maestros,
15:09por lo que desarrollamos en la red de solidaridad social,
15:14porque fue un gobierno social lo que yo traté de hacer
15:17y creo que también de alguna manera es el que está tratando de hacer
15:22o dejar de huella en ese sentido este gobierno,
15:27con el cual me identifican tres temas,
15:29que los tengo claros.
15:30Yo no soy militante activo,
15:32ni esto era el petrismo.
15:34A mí me identifican las reformas sociales,
15:36que van saliendo lenta,
15:38pero van saliendo.
15:40Me identifica el tema de la paz,
15:42al cual le he dedicado todo,
15:44y me identifica el tema de la integración.
15:46Nosotros somos de la familia del sur,
15:49que no se nos olvide,
15:50no somos del sur,
15:51no somos del norte,
15:52somos del sur.
15:55Expresidente,
15:56y este tema del 8000,
15:57precisamente que usted menciona,
15:58ese ya es un capítulo cerrado,
16:00¿cree que hay cosas que faltan por aclarar de lo que fue eso?
16:03Pues lo primero que falta por aclarar
16:05fue que me declararon inocente,
16:06porque parte del problema del lawfare
16:08o las guerras jurídicas que hay
16:10es que su pretensión es crear
16:13un daño reputacional inmediato.
16:15Entonces a uno en un medio lo acusan,
16:18el otro medio por la mañana
16:19lo presenta supuestas pruebas,
16:22lo juzgan, lo condenan,
16:23lo absuelven.
16:24Pero uno no tiene el derecho,
16:26como sucedió a mí,
16:27cuando ya pasados los años
16:29la absolvió la Corte,
16:31la Fiscalía,
16:32se supo que había pasado con mi campaña,
16:33eso no le importó a nadie
16:35porque lo que le importaba
16:37o le sigue importando con estos lawfare
16:40es hacer un daño inmediato,
16:42debilitar la gobernabilidad.
16:45Y eso es una actitud temeraria y responsable.
16:48Al país no le sirve
16:50que le quitemos gobernabilidad
16:51a este gobierno ni a ningún gobierno.
16:54Es decir, está legítimo
16:55que señalemos las fallas,
16:57allegamos los debates que hay que hacer,
16:59pero no con el ánimo
17:02de amarrarle las manos,
17:04de quitarle movilidad a los pies,
17:06de que no pueda ver,
17:07de que no pueda oír.
17:09Y sobre estos tres temas
17:11que usted mencionaba previamente
17:12con los que se siente identificado,
17:13¿cómo los ve el futuro de las reformas,
17:15la paz?
17:16Ambas cosas se han tambaleado un poco.
17:19Pues yo creo que las reformas,
17:21como ya decía,
17:21están saliendo,
17:22el gobierno tiene que ceder,
17:24no puede aspirar,
17:26tiene que salir un poco
17:27de la confusión de pensar
17:28que lo público es igual a lo estatal.
17:32Eso ya ha estado revaluado.
17:35Hay muchas combinaciones
17:37en que lo público y lo privado
17:38pueden ser exitosos
17:39en conseguir el mismo objetivo
17:41que es que haya salud para todos,
17:44que haya educación para todos.
17:46Es un tema de estrategia.
17:48En el tema de la paz,
17:50yo sigo,
17:51hay que darle mil oportunidades a la paz.
17:53Hay que buscar los caminos.
17:55No es una autopista.
17:57Son muchos caminos
17:58los que llevan a la paz
17:59y hay que,
18:00si no resulta uno,
18:01hay que ir a otro
18:02y en ese sentido creo que
18:03la concepción de la paz total
18:05está bien.
18:06Si uno tiene en la casa
18:08ocho focos de un incendio,
18:10con apagar el del primer piso
18:11no sacan nada.
18:12Hay que apagar todos.
18:14Y hasta que encontremos la manera,
18:16no importa lo que nos demoremos,
18:18hay que seguirlo buscando
18:19como un propósito.
18:20Y el tema de la integración,
18:23que es el tema del sur,
18:25eso sí lo veo bastante atrasado.
18:27Nunca habíamos estado
18:28tan desintegrados como ahora
18:29y nunca había sido tan necesaria
18:32la integración como ahora.
18:33¿Qué oportunidades ve?
18:35Pues yo pienso que,
18:37digamos,
18:37Ulasur se está reactivando
18:39y nosotros estamos trabajando,
18:41digo,
18:42un grupo que se llama
18:43el Grupo de Puebla,
18:44que es un grupo progresista,
18:46en ver si somos capaces
18:48de desideologizar la integración.
18:51Es decir,
18:52que la integración
18:53no es un patrimonio
18:55de ningún grupo ideológico.
18:57Yo tuve oportunidad
18:58de ser secretario de Ulasur
18:59y había gente de izquierda,
19:02de derecha.
19:03Cuando uno está hablando
19:04de la paz para América Latina
19:06o está hablando
19:07de posibilidades
19:08de construir infraestructura
19:10o de darle la ciudadanía a todos,
19:12no tiene que preguntarle
19:13cuál es su ideología.
19:16Son cosas que están por encima
19:17y yo creo que hay que volver a eso,
19:19a unos procesos de integración
19:21en los cuales
19:22dejemos a un lado la ideología
19:23sin dejar de ser políticos.
19:25Temas como el de la paz,
19:26la democracia,
19:27los derechos humanos
19:28son políticos,
19:28pero no son ideológicos.
19:31Interesante.
19:32Expresidente,
19:32yo le quería preguntar
19:33por el tema de Estados Unidos.
19:35Hace muchos años
19:36usted perdió la visa estadounidense.
19:38¿En qué va ese tema?
19:39Bueno,
19:40no la he podido recuperar
19:42porque no he querido recuperarla.
19:43En primer lugar,
19:45no sé qué,
19:46me encartaría con el patón
19:48a los nietos,
19:49los voy a llevar
19:51al parque de café
19:54en Colombia.
19:55Tampoco me ha hecho falta.
19:57Tampoco me ha hecho falta.
19:59Lo veo como parte
20:00de una política equivocada
20:02de los Estados Unidos
20:03que piensan
20:03que con hacerle daño
20:07a la honra a la gente,
20:09con ponerle bloqueos
20:11a los países
20:12como tiene a Cuba,
20:13que en este evento
20:13la gente no tiene
20:14ni con qué comer
20:15por cuenta del bloqueo,
20:16que con eso
20:17van a imponer su autoridad.
20:19De lo que sí estoy seguro
20:20es que Estados Unidos
20:21va a ser el imperio
20:21más odiado en la historia,
20:23si es que entra a la historia.
20:26Expresidente,
20:27pues muchas gracias
20:28por acompañarnos
20:29en esta edición
20:29de Entrevistas
20:30del Espectador.
20:31Gracias por el tiempo
20:32y a las audiencias
20:33que se conectaron
20:34a ver esta entrevista.
20:36Muchas gracias
20:36y manténganse sintonizados
20:38en elespectador.com.
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