- 14 hours ago
Mouth of the Wolf: Amanda Knox Returns to Italy
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00:00:05There's no running away!
00:00:14There's just...
00:00:20There's just waiting until you have to confront it.
00:00:29And it's almost like the only way to run away is to confront it as fast as you can.
00:00:55She was perceived as the OJ of Italy.
00:01:00I got shitty treatment from the media, but the media did not put me in prison. He did.
00:01:07It is extraordinarily rare for prosecutors to admit they were wrong.
00:01:12They thought it was a trap.
00:01:18They were going to find some reason to charge her with something again.
00:01:27I wanted to know if the person who hurt me cared.
00:01:31So I went back to confront the man who put me in prison face to face.
00:01:42I'm in this room and there's going to be nothing between me and him.
00:01:46I don't know if I'm setting myself up for a tremendously beautiful catharsis
00:01:53or one of the biggest disappointments of my life.
00:02:03I first met Amanda in 2015, when she came to the book launch party for my debut novel.
00:02:10That's me.
00:02:11And she wrote a rave review for the local paper.
00:02:15We were drawn to each other immediately.
00:02:20She made me laugh.
00:02:22And I got to know the girl she had always been.
00:02:25As a child, she was cheerful and goofy.
00:02:29She never missed a chance to play pretend.
00:02:32She was a book nerd.
00:02:34And an athlete.
00:02:37Who'd always loved the outdoors.
00:02:43And who carried music with her everywhere.
00:02:55She would sing for me.
00:02:58For the karaoke bar.
00:03:01For whoever would listen.
00:03:02Again that funny feeling.
00:03:06We Lindy hopped through life.
00:03:09Falling deeper in love with every turn.
00:03:14And together, we added more stamps to our passports.
00:03:19I'd never felt so lucky.
00:03:27What?
00:03:28What is that?
00:03:31What the fuck is that?
00:03:36I don't know.
00:03:40By orchestrating a meteorite landing in our backyard.
00:03:45But even then, overjoyed that I would get to spend the rest of my life with this intelligent,
00:03:51silly, adventurous woman.
00:03:54I knew I was also getting engaged to a woman who carried a deep sadness with her.
00:04:00Always.
00:04:01A woman who had faced tremendous suffering and judgment.
00:04:06A woman who had been flattened and distorted into a monster.
00:04:11I had fallen in love with Amanda.
00:04:13But I would also be spending my life with Amanda Knox.
00:04:22In 2007, I was 20 years old.
00:04:26And I was on my way to Parusia, Italy to study abroad.
00:04:31I was about a month into my stay when I met Raffaele Selecito, who was this shy computer
00:04:38engineering student.
00:04:39And he swept me off my feet.
00:04:41My roommate Laura called us Pichoncini, which means lovebirds.
00:04:47Amanda was living in a flat with two Italian roommates and a British exchange student named
00:04:52Meredith Kircher.
00:04:53She was a year older than me, but she was definitely more sophisticated than me.
00:05:00She looked out for me a lot.
00:05:02Like, she always wanted to make sure that I wasn't walking home alone at night.
00:05:07We went grocery shopping together.
00:05:09We baked cookies together.
00:05:10She loved music.
00:05:12She loved to dance.
00:05:13I remember going and finding this vintage store.
00:05:17And while we were there, she bought this sparkly silver, like, 60s style dress that she wanted
00:05:24to wear to this New Year's Eve party back home.
00:05:28And she never got to go to that New Year's Eve party back home.
00:05:33On November 2, 2007, Meredith was found dead in her bedroom.
00:05:39She'd been raped and stabbed to death.
00:05:41The crime shocked the small town of Perugia.
00:05:45The police thought Amanda's behavior in the following days was suspicious.
00:05:50They arrested her and Raffaele and charged them with the murder.
00:05:55Two weeks later, the forensics identified a man named Rudy Gaudet.
00:05:59Just a week prior, he'd been arrested for burglary and was found carrying a knife.
00:06:04And his DNA was found in and on Meredith's body.
00:06:08He'd left his fingerprints in her blood and he'd fled the country immediately after killing her.
00:06:14And it's here that you'd think they would drop the charges against Amanda and Raffaele.
00:06:18Not exactly. Meet Giuliano Menini, the prosecutor.
00:06:24Rather than admit he'd arrested the wrong people, Menini concocted a wild theory.
00:06:45The prosecutor's theory was that I brought two men into my home, one of whom I was dating, one of
00:06:53whom I had no relationship with.
00:06:55And they raped my roommate for me and then held her down while I stabbed her to death.
00:07:03This story of a sex game gone wrong was based on precisely zero evidence.
00:07:08But that didn't stop the tabloids from spreading it far and wide.
00:07:12And while the real Amanda was trapped in a prison cell, that fantasy invented by her prosecutor was legitimized by
00:07:19the global media.
00:07:20Amanda Knox.
00:07:22Guilty.
00:07:22Amanda Knox has been convicted of all counts.
00:07:25Italy's trial of the century.
00:07:27Amanda Knox.
00:07:27Guilty of murder.
00:07:28Amanda Knox.
00:07:29Guilty.
00:07:30Amanda Knox.
00:07:31Amanda Knox.
00:07:32Amanda Knox.
00:07:33Amanda Knox.
00:07:35Amanda Knox.
00:07:35Amanda Knox.
00:07:37Amanda Knox.
00:07:37Amanda Knox.
00:07:38Guilty.
00:07:39Amanda Knox.
00:07:40Amanda Knox.
00:07:43In a separate trial, Rudy Gaudet was convicted of sexual assault and participating in the murder.
00:07:50Amanda and Raffaele were found guilty of murder.
00:07:54He was sentenced to 25 years.
00:07:56And Amanda, as the supposed ringleader, was given 26.
00:08:02I can do the math.
00:08:04It was longer than I'd been alive.
00:08:06It would mean that I would lose the best years of my life to prison.
00:08:10And especially it would mean that I would lose the chance of being a mother.
00:08:14They suffered through four years in prison.
00:08:17Until 2011, when they were acquitted on appeal, when independent experts ruled that the supposed DNA linking them to the
00:08:24crime was unreliable.
00:08:26Italy was not happy with my acquittal.
00:08:29There was a big crowd outside of the courthouse that was chanting, shame, shame.
00:08:38The prosecutor's office appealed her acquittal and found her guilty again.
00:08:43Good evening.
00:08:44Tonight, Amanda Knox is once again a convicted killer.
00:08:48Giuliano Menini was vindicated.
00:08:50That is, until 2015, when the Italian Supreme Court finally exonerated her and Raffaele, citing stunning flaws in the investigation
00:08:59and prosecution.
00:09:03I met her just a few months later.
00:09:06After nearly eight years of trials, she was no longer being hunted by an Italian prosecutor.
00:09:12While I was technically free, I was not free of what had been done to me.
00:09:19The problem was that the story was bigger than me.
00:09:23And it had a life of its own beyond the courtroom.
00:09:27I was living with the stigma of being the girl accused of murder, far beyond my exoneration.
00:09:34People have very strong reactions to me, negative or positive, and it made me feel for a very long time
00:09:40like I just didn't belong to the rest of humanity.
00:09:43I was outside of what it meant to be a normal person.
00:09:50I would say the Italian public opinion for the majority of them, they were really convinced that she actually did
00:09:59it.
00:10:00That's Martina Cagosi of the Italy Innocence Project.
00:10:02We met Martina at the annual Innocence Network Conference, a gathering of hundreds of wrongly convicted men and women, and
00:10:10the advocates who devote their lives to freeing them from prison.
00:10:15I've gone to the Innocence Network Conference every year since 2014.
00:10:19It's a really life-affirming experience.
00:10:22It recharges me and re-encourages me to encounter the world and all the obstacles that I end up having
00:10:29to face.
00:10:292019 was a little different, though, because Martina Cagosi told me that they were hosting their first ever justice conference
00:10:39in Italy.
00:10:41I remember asking her, would you be interested in coming?
00:10:45I think that you would be a great key speaker.
00:10:49And I was sure that she was going to answer me simply, no, I'm not interested.
00:10:56That was a good guess, because Amanda had never set foot in Italy since her acquittal.
00:11:01And as far as we knew, the people there hated her.
00:11:05So we reached out to another friend from the Innocence Project to get some advice.
00:11:10I was scared for her, actually, knowing that there is still this bizarre obsession among a not insignificantly large group
00:11:21of people,
00:11:21and not wanting her to be subjected to any more pain, much less be in any physical danger.
00:11:27I tried to talk her out of it.
00:11:28So I'm surviving security for you.
00:11:31That's ridiculous.
00:11:33I'd say if you feel 1% scared, then trust your injury.
00:11:40And they'll go.
00:11:42In my heart, I had been hoping for a way to return to Italy and find closure.
00:11:50And this seemed like the perfect reason to go back.
00:11:54But at the same time, I was immediately also flooded with a bunch of dread.
00:12:00There are 100 rational reasons not to go back to Italy.
00:12:04First and foremost, that I don't want to be wrongly accused of a crime again.
00:12:09I have gotten death threats for years from people all over the world, but especially in Italy.
00:12:15And I did not know if I dared to show my face there again if someone might want to take
00:12:23advantage of the opportunity to hurt me.
00:12:25It was such a surprising choice to want to go back there.
00:12:28When I saw how terrifying this was for her, and yet how determined she was to do it,
00:12:34I knew I had to film that because whether we liked it or not, the tabloids were going to tell
00:12:40their own stories
00:12:40about what it meant for Amanda to go back to Italy.
00:12:43And we couldn't stop them, but we could tell our own story.
00:12:48So we bought plane tickets, and I whipped out the camera.
00:12:53I don't want to be known because I was accused of murder.
00:12:58If my great-great-grandchildren were doing a genealogy assignment, my great-great-grandma was accused of murder.
00:13:10That's what they define right now.
00:13:18And that's not me.
00:13:21When Amanda told us she was going to go back, you know, gut punch, so many bad things happened there.
00:13:30Not only had Amanda been arrested on crazy charges, I had been arrested on crazy charges,
00:13:36which was criminal slander for repeating what Amanda had said on the witness stand about her interrogation.
00:13:43I wasn't just going to let her go. If she was going to go back, I was going to go
00:13:46with her.
00:13:48For as long as Amanda had been thinking about returning to Italy,
00:13:51she had also been thinking about reaching out to her prosecutor, Dr. Giuliano Minini.
00:13:57I was haunted by this idea that, like, this man who thought he was doing a good thing was harming
00:14:04me.
00:14:04I wanted to see if he could actually see me for the person I really was.
00:14:10In my first letters to him, I asked him if he would meet with me.
00:14:13And his response was no response.
00:14:19I hope that after I give this talk, Giuliano Minini will eventually agree to meet with me.
00:14:26I can't help but feel afraid that it's just going to be me up there pouring my heart out and
00:14:33people are going to be thinking,
00:14:35what a fool.
00:14:39What do I say to Italy?
00:14:45I don't know.
00:14:49Fuck, here we go.
00:14:50No.
00:15:08As tense as this trip was, we knew there'd at least be a few friendly faces there.
00:15:13I had a posse of Innocence Project people there with me treating me like a person when everyone else was
00:15:20treating me like an object.
00:15:22Seth, Justin, and Mark weren't just champions of justice.
00:15:27They were a part of our family in the Innocence Movement.
00:15:30But neither they nor us were prepared for the media reactions upon our arrival.
00:15:35Every single newspaper has a man's picture on it.
00:15:37You know, big, huge headlines with lots of exclamation points.
00:15:40The second we walked out that door, cameras in the face, and I can only imagine, like, what that felt
00:15:45like.
00:15:45Now you're back in this place, and immediately, you're back in.
00:15:48Like, it's unrelenting.
00:15:57And the paparazzi is, you know, out the airport following them on the highway.
00:16:06This is exactly why we invited her.
00:16:09The media still are so obsessed by her case.
00:16:14Ciao.
00:16:26They found us.
00:16:29Otto, our bodyguard, is unsure whether or not we're going to be safe at the event.
00:16:35Have you considered trying to just walk gracefully and act as if they're not there and keep your head up?
00:16:42It would be one thing if, like, they were two feet away from me, even.
00:16:47Yeah.
00:16:47Two feet away from me.
00:16:48But they weren't.
00:16:50They were right here.
00:16:51Yeah.
00:16:52If they could have been up my skirt, they would have been.
00:16:56And there's no graceful way of moving through that.
00:17:28They led us through the basement to avoid the media.
00:17:31in the hopes that we could slip in and join the audience to hear the other speakers.
00:17:40And I'm sitting there speaking, just doing a boring academic presentation.
00:17:44All of a sudden, like a spotlight clicks, you start hearing the paparazzi go,
00:17:48and nobody's paying attention to me anymore,
00:17:49and everyone's now just focusing on the fact that Amanda had come into the room.
00:17:53It was like she was in the cage, and everyone was looking at her from the top.
00:18:01It's because the truth of the final justice is not going to happen.
00:18:13Is there a seat there if you want to sit for a second?
00:18:16Let's sit for a second.
00:18:22How much for you?
00:18:24I don't want to go. I don't want to go.
00:18:26I don't know.
00:18:31I don't want to go.
00:18:32I don't want to go.
00:18:33Okay, you have to find the...
00:18:36You have to be brave.
00:18:38You are here and no one expected you to be here.
00:18:41You have to fight with us.
00:18:43Because there are so many people like you.
00:18:45You have to be the person in which they see that life starts.
00:18:51If you start, even these people who see you in the whole world,
00:18:55continue to say,
00:18:56you see, life is finished.
00:18:58Life is finished.
00:18:59You have to help them.
00:19:01We are all here with you.
00:19:03Nobody is burning you.
00:19:04But you look up, look up, look up in the face and turn around to the fuck.
00:19:10Okay?
00:19:11With the eyes, with the look.
00:19:14Oh, no!
00:19:15Not with the microphone.
00:19:25we left the conference and went back to the hotel amanda needed a mental reset especially
00:19:32after making the mistake of checking her notifications on social media
00:19:39i'm really grateful to my hosts they keep saying to me you know we're
00:19:44happy that you're here right because i think they know that i have that doubt that anyone's happy
00:19:50that i'm here right now that anyone wants me here but that's not going to stop me from telling
00:20:01the truth i'm going to tell the out of the truth up there tomorrow
00:20:38we were concerned about interruptions
00:20:44during the speech because we received threads about letting her speak
00:20:51she was at the time sort of perceived as like the oj of italy the person who introduced her
00:20:57had to give excuses why she was even there invited to speak
00:21:30i'm here in the house and i'm here in the of italy the first time i'm here in the house
00:21:53I am here today, but especially I temo that I lack courage.
00:22:03I know that many people think that I am a victim.
00:22:11Some have even affirmed that only standing here, with my presence,
00:22:18I am traumatizing again the family Kercher and profanizing the memory of Meredith.
00:22:29They are wrong.
00:22:31And the fact that I continue to be considered responsible in this way
00:22:38shows how powerful can be the false false narrations.
00:22:44I was a woman who was happy and alive,
00:22:50imprisoned in an uncomfortable environment.
00:22:53Instead of dreaming of a career or a family,
00:23:00I was committed to suicide.
00:23:06All the members of my family have gone through their lives
00:23:13and they have had to pay their taxes
00:23:16and reach their pension funds to pay my defense.
00:23:33It's always hard watching your child in pain.
00:23:35And you could tell that was an extremely painful moment for her.
00:23:40I just wanted to walk up and grab her and take her off the stage.
00:23:47Before I started my process, I was buried under a mountain of fantasies from tabloids.
00:23:57The public minister and the media had created a story.
00:24:03And people liked this story.
00:24:07The black man of documenting people with memes and prochaine.
00:24:14And so many people murdered God,
00:24:24so much more people would be raped by their young people,
00:24:27and speak하�ly,
00:24:29how peoplerooms their muut яга
00:24:47I could see how desperately she's been wanting to be seen.
00:24:54Like, it's such a common need that we all have.
00:24:58It's this desire to be judged for who you actually are.
00:25:02Not for some caricature of who you are.
00:25:04Forse la lezione più importante che io ho imparato dall'essere distorta in un mostro nell'immaginazione del pubblico
00:25:12è che è così facile per noi vedere solo quello che vogliamo vedere.
00:25:21Appiattire le altre persone in caricature, di questo sono anch'io colpevole.
00:25:29Di recente sto pensando molto al mio pubblico ministero, il dottor Giuliano Mignini.
00:25:37Per me, a vent'anni, ingiustamente imprigionata e sotto processo, il dottor Giuliano Mignini era una figura da incubo.
00:25:49Un uomo potente e spaventoso che aveva un solo obiettivo, distruggere la mia vita.
00:25:58E io so che questa immagine di lui è piatta e bidimensionale come Foxy Noxy.
00:26:10I didn't think he was evil.
00:26:12I believe that every day, every person wakes up thinking they're the good guy.
00:26:19And it's really interesting how someone can think they're the good guy and yet cause tremendous harm.
00:26:27Un giorno mi piacerebbe incontrare il vero dottor Giuliano Mignini.
00:26:32E spero che quando arriverà a quel momento, anche lui potrà giungere a vedere che io non sono un mostro,
00:26:42ma sono semplicemente Amanda.
00:26:46Grazie.
00:27:31Grazie ragazzi.
00:27:54In the front, I got the back.
00:27:56Yeah, got it.
00:27:58Got it?
00:28:29Yeah, got it.
00:28:33And for the thing that they did to her and yet there's an overture in there and to say it
00:28:40in front of everyone in Italy.
00:28:45Okay.
00:28:59Now that it's done.
00:29:06I kind of can't believe it.
00:29:19I can't go back to yesterday.
00:29:22I barely recognize my face so different then.
00:29:29I've fallen down the rabbit hole.
00:29:32I'm out of time and now I'm out of time and now I'm holding up the looking glass as it
00:29:43is hard for you as me to turn away.
00:29:50It's not easy.
00:29:52It's not easy.
00:29:53It's not easy.
00:29:53Believe me.
00:29:54The way out is always through.
00:30:15I'm out of time and now I'm out of time and now I'm out of time.
00:30:20How strange.
00:30:22The day after her speech, Amanda got word that her prosecutor, Giuliano Minini, had finally read the letters she'd sent
00:30:29him over the last few months.
00:30:33apparently my speech had an enormous effect on him and he wanted to thank me for my words
00:30:44because he wasn't expecting them wow
00:30:51he's questioning himself that matters
00:31:00it's taken a long time
00:31:04and it's taken so much work
00:31:16everyone had always told me there's no way you're going to be able to go back to italy
00:31:20and i did and then they always said oh you're never going to be able to change people's minds
00:31:29and i did and you know even okay fine even if you ain't change people's minds you're never going
00:31:34to change your prosecutor's mind and i did and so there was this feeling of sort of
00:31:42grappling with the shock of like i'm recovering like i'm clawing my way out of this grave
00:31:51and and it was not lost on me that like i'm alive and that's why i can do that
00:31:59but meredith is not this thing that i'm doing is so hard but at least i can do it and
00:32:07she can't
00:32:15amanda may not have survived prison but for the friendship of one man
00:32:19the chaplain don saulo scarabatoli
00:32:22per cui il carcere è proprio come tagliare un fiore violentemente mentre proprio sta crescendo
00:32:31e quindi la situazione e l'atteggiamento è di stupore sorpresa non è vero
00:32:41i was in isolation for eight months and very often i just spent the time singing to myself
00:32:47to keep myself company and he heard me and invited me to come to his office to just play music
00:32:55we connected not on a spiritual level but on a musical level
00:33:01la musica è il linguaggio più più immediato più misterioso anche ma più evidente che ci sia
00:33:09nella musica si riversa il dolore la gioia lo stupore amanda amava i beatles e anch'io da
00:33:21in esperto nel senso che il mio tipo di musica è la musica classica la musica organistica la musica
00:33:27sinfonica questo ha permesso di comunicare immediatamente
00:33:31in his office don saulo taught amanda to play the piano but she wasn't allowed to have an
00:33:37instrument in her cell so she practiced in her mind
00:33:53so my last day in prison i spent almost entirely in don salo's office i was waiting for the verdict
00:34:08don saulo really wanted me to play music for him and he brought out this tape recorder
00:34:15which he was not allowed to have and he recorded me singing and playing the piano
00:34:23because he was afraid that it was going to be the last time that he heard my voice
00:34:47i ero convinto comunque comunque intanto dell'innocenza di amanda e poi qualunque cosa fosse
00:34:56avvenuta sarebbe stata comunque per il bene
00:35:08ci sono i giorni le notti quando la notte sembra invincibile eppure anche quella serve perché fa
00:35:17desiderare ancora di più il giorno
00:35:30not long after that i was called back into court and i was acquitted
00:35:41and i never saw him in prison again he was right
00:35:51while don saulo offered friendship and comfort to amanda he was also maintaining a friendship
00:35:57with her prosecutor giuliano minini
00:35:59la conoscenza con giuliano minini è antica perché essendo io parroco appunto vicino alla casa dove lui abita
00:36:09quando incontravo giuliano in quel tempo ovviamente l'argomento cadeva su amanda
00:36:20e io dicevo la mia interpretazione io ero convinto che non era vera e io lo dicevo io conosco per
00:36:29come si può il cuore di amanda e so che è impossibile
00:36:33tu parli dai fatti ma non arriverà mai al cuore delle persone
00:36:39of all the people in the world who could be the messenger
00:36:42between me and giuliano
00:36:45he was the one who i could trust with the message
00:36:47and who i thought giuliano would be willing to
00:36:51receive it from
00:36:52at first giuliano minini had refused to read her letters
00:36:57her speech had changed that
00:36:59dear miss knox
00:37:01i had to respond to your letters
00:37:04if this
00:37:05summer has been full of emotions for you
00:37:08it has also been full of emotions for me
00:37:10no ex
00:37:13defendant has ever
00:37:16come to
00:37:17reach out to me as you have done in your last letter
00:37:21you have been
00:37:22a happy surprise
00:37:24until we hear you again
00:37:26amanda
00:37:27signed giuliano minini
00:37:32god
00:37:32isn't that
00:37:33i don't like i don't even know what to do
00:37:36um
00:37:38thoughts
00:37:39i don't think he thinks you're guilty
00:37:41you don't
00:37:42he's not talking in the way that he thinks that
00:37:45you deserve to be in prison right now
00:37:49if he genuinely believes that i'm innocent
00:37:53he would feel sorry for
00:37:54what he put me through
00:37:59and that doesn't sound like he is
00:38:04sounds like he thinks that
00:38:06the worst treatment i got was from the media
00:38:09and i got shitty treatment from the media
00:38:11but the media did not put me in prison
00:38:15he did
00:38:18how exactly do you go about
00:38:20carrying on a dialogue
00:38:21with the man who sent you to prison
00:38:25there didn't seem to be any road map for this
00:38:28i'm trying to think if i've ever heard of an instance of an exoneree reaching out to the person who
00:38:34convicted them
00:38:34i don't think so
00:38:35i've had situations where
00:38:37police officers who have multiple wrongful convictions get promoted
00:38:40prosecutors who have multiple wrongful convictions get promoted
00:38:43um it's been very frustrating
00:38:46and how much more frustrating for the wrongly convicted people themselves
00:38:52like our friend anna vazquez of the san antonio four
00:38:55who was wrongly convicted of child molestation
00:38:58in a satanic panic case
00:39:00a crime that never even happened
00:39:02the original prosecutors um you know uh a detective
00:39:08the people that were originally involved
00:39:10no i've never had an apology
00:39:13or johnny hincapié who was wrongly convicted in 1990
00:39:17of stabbing a tourist to death on the new york city subway
00:39:21after he was coerced into making a false confession
00:39:23no one that was involved in my trial
00:39:26ever said that they were sorry
00:39:29none of that
00:39:30they never took any type of accountability whatsoever
00:39:34greg mingo was wrongly convicted of double robbery and homicide in 1980
00:39:39the judge in his case was later heard using the n-word to refer to a black defendant in open
00:39:44court
00:39:47nobody in my case ever apologized to me whether it was a prosecutor the police
00:39:52anybody that's involved uh so i spent all that time in prison for a crime i didn't commit
00:39:59and there's no accountability
00:40:03i'm trying to imagine what it would be like to sit across from him
00:40:09have a conversation we could have
00:40:16i mean i think there are things that i would like him to
00:40:20understand and acknowledge
00:40:23that
00:40:25i don't think
00:40:28he would
00:40:31example
00:40:35that he was wrong and that he did a bad job
00:40:38and that he caused me and my family
00:40:44undeserved suffering
00:40:46but if i say that directly to him
00:40:49he won't hear it
00:40:52after trading a few letters
00:40:54manini then recommends that amanda watch this
00:40:57italian detective film about a french detective
00:41:00named mccray
00:41:02mccray is this independent eccentric inspector
00:41:08and in this particular case
00:41:12he's convinced that this one character who's condemned to death is innocent
00:41:18this is his way of saying how he feels about me
00:41:24like he specifically said from this film you will understand my sleepless nights
00:41:31that's crazy
00:41:33that's crazy
00:41:34dear giuliano
00:41:36there were many moments in the film that i thought i understood what you meant to tell me
00:41:42about your reflections on our case
00:41:45especially this reflection
00:41:47of my grace
00:41:50when you feel an answer
00:41:52around you
00:41:53but you can't
00:41:55grab it
00:41:56you are truly
00:41:57tempted to invent
00:41:59to make up
00:42:00a guilty party
00:42:01but i don't want to misunderstand you
00:42:04this could also be
00:42:05only my
00:42:06wishful thinking
00:42:10amanda kept the correspondence going
00:42:13and life went on
00:42:15we remodeled
00:42:20we traveled
00:42:27and we got married
00:42:48we were building a joyful new life together
00:42:52but it was kind of like the ghost of italy was always clawing at us
00:42:59what's wrong
00:43:01oh um
00:43:03so i don't know if you saw the news
00:43:07oh what news
00:43:08but john kircher died
00:43:12no i didn't see that
00:43:14apparently there was some kind of hit and run
00:43:17wow
00:43:19it sounds like it's really affecting you
00:43:22oh um
00:43:25i mean it doesn't
00:43:27it's not nice knowing that
00:43:29i'm never gonna
00:43:31have a chance to
00:43:35you know
00:43:36be on good terms with him
00:43:38right
00:43:41in a really definitive way
00:43:44i know it's always kind of hopeless
00:43:46but
00:43:46i don't know
00:43:48it's just kind of shaking me
00:43:51that was a really hard moment
00:43:53where i had to accept that reality
00:43:56and then also
00:43:59not let it hold me back
00:44:02because if things were reversed
00:44:04and i were dead
00:44:06and meredith had been wrongly convicted
00:44:08i would want her to like live her life
00:44:10life is precious
00:44:11live it
00:44:12celebrate it
00:44:13come on, come on, come on, come on
00:44:16come on
00:44:17yes
00:44:21yes, yes, yes, yes
00:44:25oh my god
00:44:28oh thank goodness
00:44:36well
00:44:39we're pregnant
00:44:42there was a period of my life
00:44:43where i thought motherhood
00:44:45was something that had been stolen from me
00:44:47and so
00:44:49the second that i got pregnant
00:44:52it was a thing that was returned to me
00:44:54and i was so happy
00:44:56but i also was suddenly stricken
00:44:59with a sense of urgency
00:45:01my entire adult life has been spent
00:45:04with this black cloud hovering over me
00:45:06and the last thing that i wanted to do
00:45:09was pass that on to my daughter
00:45:10and so i felt like
00:45:12suddenly
00:45:13i needed to figure out
00:45:15what was going on
00:45:18in my life
00:45:19and resolve it somehow
00:45:22so that i could cultivate a world
00:45:25in which my daughter had a better chance
00:45:28than i did
00:45:30our daughter eureka muse
00:45:32nox robinson
00:45:33was born on july 11th
00:45:352021
00:45:37we decided early on
00:45:39that we weren't going to share any pictures
00:45:40of our daughter on social media
00:45:42and yet
00:45:43amanda sent a photo
00:45:45of herself and eureka
00:45:47when she was just born
00:45:48to manini
00:45:49dear and sweet amanda
00:45:50give a kiss
00:45:51to that little treasure
00:45:53that you had in your arms
00:45:54and that splendid photo
00:45:56that you sent to me
00:45:57your last letter
00:45:58filled me with joy
00:45:59for many reasons
00:46:00in part because you have
00:46:03made me a part of your
00:46:05intimate reality
00:46:11he has said things like
00:46:13you know
00:46:13but i wish you happiness
00:46:14and i hope that you aren't suffering
00:46:17for what you went through
00:46:18and he says like you
00:46:20you know
00:46:21you went through something really
00:46:22terrible
00:46:23but he doesn't say
00:46:24because of me
00:46:29so it's interesting
00:46:30it's
00:46:31we're at a very interesting place
00:46:33and i don't know
00:46:34if he's ever going to get past
00:46:36like to take the next step
00:46:58finally in early 2022
00:47:00we bought plane tickets
00:47:01to return to perugia
00:47:03so amanda could meet
00:47:04giuliano menini
00:47:05face to face
00:47:07i couldn't understand
00:47:08why that was important
00:47:09he locked my child up
00:47:11he had me arrested
00:47:12he took away four years
00:47:14of her life
00:47:15and again
00:47:16either through sheer stupidity
00:47:18and incompetence
00:47:19or just that he's
00:47:20a horrible human being
00:47:21i just didn't understand
00:47:23the family was in disbelief also
00:47:27here's a question
00:47:28why aren't you telling me
00:47:30not to do this
00:47:31like everyone else
00:47:34that is curious isn't it
00:47:37i understand that it really
00:47:39matters to you
00:47:42i also think that
00:47:43there's something about
00:47:48trying to achieve
00:47:49something that seems impossible
00:47:51that i'm sort of drawn to
00:47:58he says as he does a rubik's cube
00:48:02it's also about saying
00:48:06look here's an example
00:48:08here's an example of what you can do
00:48:12if i can do it you can do it
00:48:14you can take someone who's hurt you terribly
00:48:17and
00:48:22you can do everything in your power
00:48:25to be kind to them
00:48:27which is
00:48:32scary
00:48:34and
00:48:35beautiful
00:48:39we were feeling uncertain
00:48:41but optimistic
00:48:42that is until a video surfaced
00:48:45of menini
00:48:46defending the original guilty verdict
00:48:48did he think she belonged in prison
00:48:50after all
00:48:51my stepdad says that he's worried that menini might be lying to me
00:48:58and that he's just trying to get me
00:49:00to come back to perusia
00:49:02in order to find some way to incriminate me
00:49:05it's kind of thrown me through a loop
00:49:09what if all of this has been a lie
00:49:13what if he's been just working me
00:49:20what if he's still the prosecutor
00:49:24allora mi ricordo che c'era un discorso di problemi
00:49:30avevamo fatto i controlli ed erano risultati negativi
00:49:34non c'era la contaminazione
00:49:36una azione della corte di cassazione
00:49:39che è qualcosa di non lo so come definirlo
00:49:43si, si, si la senta la plurmita
00:49:47the only reason amanda was acquitted in 2011
00:49:49was because independent experts ruled that the supposed DNA
00:49:54on the knife was the result of lab contamination
00:49:57so on the one hand he's sending magray
00:50:00and on the other hand he's out there giving interviews saying
00:50:03there was no contamination
00:50:05and he's saying that her acquittal is a judicial mistake
00:50:08they thought it was a trap
00:50:09they were going to find some bullshit reason
00:50:13to charge her with something again
00:50:15that was all of our fears
00:50:18having my doubts
00:50:21that we would even be able to talk to each other
00:50:24I am not remotely interested in judicial procedure
00:50:30I am interested in the fucking truth
00:50:33and the fact that you hurt me
00:50:36and I don't know if that conversation is possible
00:50:41I don't want to be told that it's not important
00:50:43I didn't say it wasn't important
00:50:46but I think if you're going because you think it's going to heal you
00:50:51that it could be crushing
00:50:54if it doesn't do what you want it to do
00:50:58I think that's what I'm afraid of
00:51:08we learned our lesson on the first return trip
00:51:10had we flown directly into Italy
00:51:13the paparazzi would have swarmed us immediately
00:51:22we were hoping that by flying into Zurich
00:51:24and driving across the border
00:51:26we could arrive without alerting the media
00:51:28yeah look at this place
00:51:31like it's not what you imagine the approach to Mordor looks like
00:51:34no
00:51:34no
00:51:35so we are about to cross over into Italy
00:51:42going through Chiasso
00:51:44and that's the border right there
00:51:48and of course there's a polizia
00:51:51we made it through without a hitch
00:51:53and early the next morning
00:51:55we picked up Amanda's mom at the Milan airport
00:51:58okay if you really need to go back
00:52:00we would do that
00:52:01but she wouldn't go alone
00:52:02what are you worried about later on
00:52:04well you know Amanda knows
00:52:06that I'm not a huge fan of the talk with Menini
00:52:10because I don't trust this human being at all
00:52:14I'm worried that this chat with Menini
00:52:18you know will go south
00:52:20we pointed the car to Piagato
00:52:23a tiny medieval village
00:52:2430 minutes from Perugia
00:52:26where we had a safe house waiting for us
00:52:44the day before the meeting
00:52:45we decided to visit Kapane prison
00:52:48where Amanda was locked up for four years
00:53:03right there is where I was held
00:53:10I had flashbacks of walking through that gate for the first time
00:53:13and how many times I had to walk through that gate
00:53:16and how many times I had to leave
00:53:18and leave her there
00:53:19and how awful that was
00:53:22I had never seen the prison except from the inside
00:53:26I was trying to claw my way out of a grave
00:53:30like that was my grave
00:53:33for four years of my life
00:53:37I'm just
00:53:42having visions of the inside
00:53:46what do you see?
00:53:48the hallway
00:53:49where all the cells are
00:53:54need Adia
00:53:56I would walk in circles
00:54:12it's just so absurd
00:54:15that I lost that much time
00:54:17to that place
00:54:22and that I was sitting in there
00:54:24thinking how am I going to make my life worth it
00:54:26if I have to stay here for another 26 years
00:54:35sort of like mental gymnastics that I had to do
00:54:38and emotional gymnastics I had to do to deal with that
00:54:45I was probably on these roads quite a bit
00:54:50going back and forth to the Tribunale
00:54:53but I never saw them
00:54:55because I was in a windowless van
00:54:57it makes me angry
00:55:06but I lost wollen
00:55:28because I was crying
00:55:29I was struggling
00:55:29because I don't know
00:55:42The first thing I'm going to say is I am here to let you know that whether you realize your
00:55:49mistake or not, I do not think that you are a bad person.
00:55:53I do not wish you ill. I wish you peace.
00:55:58I'm also here to grieve. Part of me died here, and I'm here to grieve for her, and finally hopefully
00:56:07feel whole again.
00:56:10You feel like a part of you died here?
00:56:13Yeah.
00:56:17Yeah.
00:56:20That had happened to her, and I never can go back to being that person.
00:56:44That's your outfit. Why do you like it?
00:56:51Well, it's both conservative. It also has a lot of personality. That's my shoe.
00:57:02This is my superhero.
00:57:23My grandpa doesn't come.
00:57:29It is my hair, and it goes on.
00:57:30Goodbye, bye bye.
00:57:39I think that's it.
00:57:43That yellow building.
00:57:45Yellow. That's a good sign.
00:57:49Here we are.
00:57:56Okay.
00:57:57Okay. We're here.
00:58:35It's really hitting me like I'm in this room, and there's going to be nothing between me
00:58:42and him.
00:58:45Okay.
00:58:52Seeing him out the window, I could feel my own adrenaline surging.
00:58:56Was that Uncle Giuliano out there, who called Amanda, dear girl, and sent her cat videos?
00:59:02Or was that the prosecutor, who in public still proclaimed that her acquittal was a judicial
00:59:08mistake?
00:59:09I was worried how it would affect her emotionally.
00:59:12I wanted it to be over quickly, but I knew it was important to her.
00:59:17I was on edge.
00:59:18Sirens in the distance truly had me clenched, like, oh my God, they're coming.
00:59:23We had a really difficult discussion about whether to film this first encounter with
00:59:27Menini.
00:59:28Amanda wanted an open and honest dialogue with him.
00:59:32And, you know, in Italy, there's this thing called bella figura, putting on a good face.
00:59:37And she was worried that with cameras rolling, he wouldn't be open and honest with her.
00:59:43So we made the incredibly difficult decision not to film this first encounter.
00:59:55So, um, he maintained that he did what he did because he was following the facts.
01:00:02Mm-hmm.
01:00:03Doing his duty.
01:00:04He was doing his duty, everything.
01:00:06But he basically said, I know you didn't do it.
01:00:10He said that when he asked for my, my, um, that I be convicted, he was suffering, is what
01:00:18he says.
01:00:20Wow.
01:00:21If someone were to come to me today and say, hey, here's the person that we're accusing,
01:00:26I would say, I can't participate in this because I know her too well and it is impossible that
01:00:32she did what you're accusing her of.
01:00:35All right.
01:00:36Should I stop recording?
01:00:37Any other, how do you feel?
01:00:40Um, I think I'm a little in shock.
01:00:44I think he had a religious experience in that room.
01:00:48She turned the other cheek so hard it made his head spin.
01:00:52I wasn't surprised when she said that, you know, he didn't apologize.
01:00:56I didn't care if he was in turmoil or if he was trying.
01:01:00I mean, he failed miserably at his job and he tortured my daughter.
01:01:05Amanda just sees the good in people.
01:01:07She saw that he was trying and she wanted to give him a chance to get there, even if
01:01:12he couldn't get there right away.
01:01:14After that first meeting, Amanda kept writing to him for another two years.
01:01:19And as we made plans to meet a second time, a stunning development took place that put
01:01:24Amanda back on trial.
01:01:26When she was definitively acquitted of murder in 2015, she was still found guilty of criminal
01:01:32slander against her boss, Patrick Lumumba, for signing statements during her interrogation
01:01:37that implicated him in the murder.
01:01:39But in late 2023, Italy's highest court annulled this last remaining wrongful conviction and
01:01:46ordered a retrial.
01:01:47This would be her final chance to fight for the truth, that the statements she'd signed
01:01:52after 53 hours of questioning were coerced, not malicious.
01:01:56So off to Italy we went, this time with an extra little passenger.
01:02:01Here we go.
01:02:04Again.
01:02:05Again.
01:02:05Why do you keep putting yourself through this?
01:02:07Uh, because they keep putting me through it.
01:02:12This charge is what everyone points to, to say that I got away with murder, because they
01:02:18say an innocent person wouldn't have slandered somebody.
01:02:22Look at her.
01:02:23She's a liar.
01:02:24It would be so vindicating to be recognized as innocent and have all of those people eat
01:02:30their words.
01:02:39The statements that led to her slander conviction were the result of prolonged questioning without
01:02:44a lawyer or translator.
01:02:45The police lied to her, threatened her with 30 years in prison, and slapped her until she
01:02:51implicated herself and her boss, Patrick Lumumba, in the murder.
01:02:56The crux of this new trial would be a single piece of evidence.
01:02:59The recantation note Amanda had written just hours after the police let off the pressure.
01:03:06In regards to this quote, confession that I made last night, I want to make clear that
01:03:11I'm very doubtful of the verity of my statements because they were made under the pressure of
01:03:15stress, shock, and extreme exhaustion.
01:03:18These things seem unreal to me, like a dream.
01:03:23Who is the real murderer?
01:03:25This is particularly important because I don't feel I can be used as condemning
01:03:29testimony in this instance.
01:03:31We were feeling confident that the jury might side with Amanda, for though they had been
01:03:36poisoned by 17 years of media coverage that painted her as a killer, Meredith's actual
01:03:41killer, Rudy Gaudet, had recently been arrested on domestic violence charges against a young
01:03:46woman soon after his release from prison.
01:03:49Perhaps this further tragedy would convince the Italian people that they'd misplaced their
01:03:54blame all along.
01:03:55Could it even have changed Giuliano Menini's mind?
01:04:00He knew we were returning to Italy again, and he'd even agreed to meet with Amanda once
01:04:05more, the day after the trial.
01:04:09I mean, he sent you a voicemail?
01:04:11Yeah, let's see.
01:04:23I heard him say, in boca al lupo.
01:04:25Yeah, he wanted to say good luck, basically.
01:04:57Okay, here we are.
01:05:00There's where the judges will be.
01:05:02Amanda testified in her own defense one last time, bearing her soul to an Italian jury.
01:05:09I would never knowingly accuse an innocent person, much less a friend, of a grave crime.
01:05:17I feel terrible that I was not strong enough to resist the pressure from the police, and
01:05:23that he suffered as a result.
01:05:26At the first moment of reprieve from that pressure, I wrote this document to recant the
01:05:32statements I had signed under duress, and to remove any suspicion from Patrick.
01:05:40To our shock, the jury found her guilty, and sentenced her to time served.
01:06:00I've been here before.
01:06:03I've been in front of a judge and a jury, and I've been torn down before, so this feeling
01:06:13is really familiar.
01:06:16This is 17 years that I've been wrongly convicted of this crime, and I can live with it.
01:06:24I will survive this, and I'm going to keep fighting it.
01:06:29What is happening to me is wrong.
01:06:31It's been wrong from the very start, and I'm tired, but I'm not going to stop until
01:06:37it is right.
01:06:40After that crushing defeat, we went to go see Giuliano Minini.
01:07:14You were a bit of a clue.
01:07:14Meredith, while I was doing things to her.
01:07:18When I wanted to ask the pen,
01:07:22in the book of the Spirit, I was born.
01:07:26You didn't ask the pen.
01:07:28I understood, I understood.
01:07:31You had to put it in my hands
01:07:33in that moment, I was convinced.
01:07:36I was innocent.
01:07:38Yes.
01:07:38So, if you say,
01:07:40you are capable of doing that,
01:07:45no.
01:07:47I don't do anything about what I did.
01:07:49If I'm wrong, I'm sorry.
01:07:51If I'm wrong, I'm sorry.
01:07:53One tries to imagine what happened.
01:07:57It's a base of the act.
01:07:59If I'm wrong, I'm sorry.
01:08:02Really.
01:08:03I am not.
01:08:06No, no, no, I don't have a pen yet.
01:08:16Look at that moment.
01:08:19I can't have a pen and tell you.
01:08:23I can't have a pen.
01:08:24I have no pen.
01:08:24I can't even tell you.
01:08:25I have no pen.
01:08:26Oh, yeah.
01:08:36Hey, Eureka, this is Juliano.
01:08:43He says, how are you?
01:08:47What does he say?
01:08:48This is Echo.
01:08:50Oh, I'm scared.
01:08:54We took a photo, and Juliano left us with Don Salo.
01:09:03I'm really brave.
01:09:07It's a magic.
01:09:09It's a miracle.
01:09:11I feel like this.
01:09:14Love!
01:09:16Love!
01:09:18Come here!
01:09:20Come here!
01:09:21Come here!
01:09:27Juliana went away, so it's just us.
01:09:30Good.
01:09:31Evilness has left the building.
01:09:33Not evil.
01:09:35My mother wanted to be with you.
01:09:37She didn't like it because she couldn't forgive Juliano.
01:09:41I thought she didn't want to be close.
01:09:43But now she's gone if she wanted to be close to you.
01:09:48He says you'd come and hang out with him now.
01:09:51I explained that you were sad because you thought you might not be able to spend some time together.
01:09:59He says that he understands why you don't feel comfortable around Juliano.
01:10:04He said that Juliano was doing his job without recognizing the human being that was across from him.
01:10:20But he did his job really badly.
01:10:22My mother said he didn't do anything well.
01:10:28He says he's just like a robot.
01:10:31He's just like a robot.
01:10:34We were just chatting out there about Menini and how he might have kept this from Amanda.
01:10:40This family and all of that.
01:10:47Guilty about that if he had locked her up and she would have never had all of this.
01:10:52However, I was just thinking on the way here in, you know, these two amazing little humans,
01:10:56he's actually kind of responsible for because he changed the trajectory of her life.
01:11:02And who knows if she would have ever met you.
01:11:04I mean, everything would have changed and these two humans wouldn't be here.
01:11:07Well, thanks, Juliano.
01:11:12Before we parted, Don Salo invited Amanda to visit his church.
01:11:16She was very close to his family.
01:11:23At least we can do something to go with them.
01:11:24I couldn't find her.
01:11:25Hey!
01:11:27Be careful.
01:11:32What is it?
01:11:37Oh, wow.
01:11:40The reason she's thinking about it is that she would have come and put it in.
01:11:45I have to talk with her ourselves.
01:11:52Oh my God, oh my God, oh my God, oh my God, oh my God.
01:12:22He also asked her to play music with him one more time.
01:12:46Oh my God, oh my God, oh my God.
01:13:09And then, Don Salo insisted on walking Amanda down Corso Vannucci, the main street of his hometown of Perugia.
01:13:18Head high, no shame.
01:13:26I had no idea what I was making when I started filming Amanda.
01:13:31I think I just wanted to reveal who Amanda was.
01:13:34I had grown to love this woman, and it was baffling to me that people could hate her.
01:13:43If this is my story, it's a love story.
01:13:47It's a love letter.
01:13:50I'm Amanda.
01:13:59I am the girl who was accused of murder.
01:14:04That doesn't go away.
01:14:06But I don't feel trapped by that.
01:14:10I've learned some really hard truths the hard way, and I want to share them so that other people have
01:14:17less of a hard time.
01:14:21I think the sort of mistake that people make when they're dealing with trauma is they try to get back
01:14:28to being the person who they were before it happened.
01:14:33But really, the trick to resilience is not going back to who you were.
01:14:39It's finding out and having a say in who you become.
01:14:50You are oil on the fire, in the crowded theater of the absurd, and this is what I've learned.
01:15:05I do not melt when I am.
01:15:11Well, you see me now, and so you think it wasn't hell.
01:15:17And still, I can't help myself.
01:15:24I wish you health, I wish you peace, I wish your suffering may cease.
01:15:31I wish your conscience knows relief, relief, sweet relief.
01:15:45I'm not here to prove you wrong.
01:15:51I learned to see how strong I am inside the prism of your flaws.
01:15:59In a way, I'm grateful for that four-year pause.
01:16:04Behind a door without a handle, our inferno is an altar candle.
01:16:13And still, I can't help myself.
01:16:18I wish you health, I wish you peace, I wish your suffering may cease.
01:16:25I wish your conscience knows relief, relief, I need relief.
01:16:56I wish you peace, I wish you peace, I wish you peace.
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