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The Frost Programme | Sir Oswald Mosely | 1967
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00:16Thank you, thank you and good evening. Tonight our subject is Sir Oswald Moseley whom many of you
00:24will remember. Sir Oswald, I think that there are two pictures of you. One is of the brilliant
00:31economist, the possible future Prime Minister, a man of wit and charm who's able to look ahead
00:39economically a good deal better than many of his political colleagues. All of that I could not
00:46take away from you if I wished and I do not wish. The second is a confused picture of Moseley,
00:55the East End riots, fascism, anti-semitism and all of that I want to talk to you about.
01:03But first I want to begin on the economic front. What was your diagnosis of Britain's economic
01:13ills position solution briefly in 1930? Well I think it's good to begin there because really
01:21that is the origin of the whole trouble or the whole business and I'm afraid it's now recurring,
01:28it is coming back. Really the question was whether in the 30s the traditional normal methods could
01:36deal with the unemployment problem or not. I was then a minister in the government charged with
01:41dealing with unemployment. I produced a policy within that Labour government, the Keynesian
01:48background, all his modern monetary theories, but a concrete definite policy for dealing with
01:55unemployment. That is it put up to work about seven or eight hundred thousand people at once
02:00and beyond that there were plans for reconstructing the country and bringing us into a commonwealth
02:07system which would permanently eliminate unemployment and enable a balanced economy with a high purchasing
02:14power for all the people of the commonwealth to be created. Now we all know about 1930 and at that
02:20time everyone indeed spoke when you made this diagnosis of your brilliant future and so on. You said in
02:26that what you were just saying that it seems similar to you things are coming back now. Why do you
02:31say
02:32specifically that the situation now is similar to then? Yes I think so and I'll tell you exactly why.
02:37The basic trouble then, quite different to the present situation, was an overproduction in relation to
02:45the given market. That is the purchasing power of the western world was not sufficient to absorb the goods
02:51that prices that are the prices. In the seasons, the ways in America, the technocrats, as they were then called
02:58were highly paid engineers of American industry,
03:01were showing that the productive potential of America was so enormous that existing measures could not possibly absorb it,
03:10and as a result there was unemployment, enormous unemployment there and also here. Temporally, that was solved by the doubling
03:18of the gold price by Roosevelt,
03:20but very temporally, because that was wearing off after three or four years.
03:24Now, that's not the only problem.
03:26That's the general problem.
03:27The particular problem was the inability of Britain, this top heavy island,
03:32to sell nearly a third of its total production on the markets of the world in open competition.
03:38Originally, we had a monopoly position in the markets of the world.
03:41That was passing away, and we were subject to intensive competition and failing to do it.
03:45Now, these factors have been masked in the post-war world.
03:49First of all, by the armament boom before the war, then by the war itself,
03:54then by two small wars, Korea and this new war in Vietnam,
03:58which, of course, absorb an enormous proportion of world and American production in particular.
04:04And that has masked and concealed the situation completely.
04:07There's been a world boom.
04:09And what are the political parallels now, then?
04:11The parallel is, on that situation of developing crisis,
04:17it's only just beginning, so you're only just beginning to feel the effects of that,
04:22it having been masked so long.
04:24But in that developing crisis, the government of the day does precisely what it did before.
04:30That is, coming in on a socialist or advanced program,
04:33it takes over at once the position of its opponents
04:36and applies conservative policies, even more conservative than the policies of the conservative party,
04:44and fails to meet the situation,
04:46holding the pound with deflation and all the old traditional measures,
04:51and failing to meet it.
04:53That is why the situation now is exactly the same.
04:56And then you get the call for devaluation and the rest of it,
05:00which may, of course, occur at any time,
05:02not because they want it.
05:04The old lady never walks downstairs, she always falls downstairs.
05:08And when this crisis last emerged,
05:10you wanted a change of a form of government in this country to cope with it.
05:15What do you think is the ideal form of government for Britain today?
05:19Well, the first thing, if you want to do anything in the world,
05:22is to create a machinery to do it.
05:24I advocated in my resignation speech from the government
05:27a machine of the civil servants and businessmen and others
05:32in Downing Street, which created in the modern term a real powerhouse.
05:37They are now talking about doing something of the sort.
05:40But 30 years later, I think the Daily Mirror wrote the other day,
05:44the powerhouse in Downing Street is one civil servant, one university professor,
05:49and Colonel Whig.
05:51Now they've lost Colonel Whig back at square one, as you say.
05:55A frightful blow.
05:55But do you want to change the system today?
05:58I mean, or do you think democracy is right for Britain today?
06:01Oh, no, that is the much larger question.
06:03I am absolutely convinced,
06:05for reasons I can give in detail, if necessary,
06:08that parliamentary control must be maintained.
06:11That is, that Parliament must be able, by vote of censure,
06:14to dismiss any government.
06:15Otherwise, you may have people going mad and doing incredible things
06:19we've had more than one example of that in recent years.
06:23Therefore, I am more than ever convinced
06:25it's right to keep parliamentary control.
06:27And when I gave evidence before the Parliamentary Committee,
06:30so after I resigned,
06:32I did insist then on parliamentary control
06:34subject to the right of government to act,
06:37so long as it retains the confidence of Parliament.
06:40Have you voted in a general election since 1930?
06:43Well, I stood in a general election, yes.
06:46I stood in the last general election.
06:48Yes, but have you voted?
06:50No.
06:51I shouldn't vote for either party.
06:53Because back in 1931, when you formed the new party,
06:57you had a great many influential supporters and so on,
07:01and an impressive list at that stage.
07:03If you had, by some quirk,
07:06been asked to form a government in 1931,
07:09who would have been your principal ministers?
07:11Well, at that time,
07:12before I resigned from the government,
07:15and immediately after,
07:16practically every young man,
07:18that is, man under 50,
07:19young in parliamentary terms,
07:21agreed with me.
07:22When I resigned from the government,
07:24made this speech,
07:26conservative, labor, liberal,
07:28I can give names if necessary,
07:30but they're well known,
07:31all agreed with me.
07:32But for two reasons,
07:34we could not get the consensus of the nation at that time.
07:37But who would have been your most important aides
07:41if you had formed a government in 1931?
07:43If I had formed a government in 1931,
07:46of young men on the conservative side,
07:48far and away the ablest,
07:50I thought at that time,
07:51was Oliver Stanley.
07:54Well, he had very many other very able people.
07:57For instance,
07:57Macmillan at that time
07:58wrote a letter to the Times.
08:00It was very brave of him,
08:01publicly supporting me.
08:03He mentions it in his memoirs.
08:05From the conservative side,
08:06we've got many others too.
08:08I now are in Bevan,
08:09signed my manifesto
08:11after I left the government.
08:14And liberals,
08:15the ablest of them,
08:16I think at that time,
08:17was Mond,
08:18afterwards became Melchie.
08:20Not the old man,
08:21the ICI man,
08:22but his son.
08:22Now,
08:23and do you think
08:23they would have accepted?
08:24Well, they did.
08:25They accepted my policy.
08:26And they would have joined your government?
08:28And if we had been in a position
08:29to form a government,
08:30which we were not,
08:31I think they would have joined.
08:33But we could not form a government
08:35because the party machines
08:36were still omnipotent.
08:37The party machines
08:38are immensely powerful
08:39in this country.
08:40And not until there's
08:41a much greater crisis
08:43than there was then
08:43will that cease to be.
08:45Right.
08:45Now, you have a position,
08:46you see,
08:47and here we come to,
08:48that in 1931,
08:50you had a list of people,
08:52an impressive list of people
08:54you felt would support you.
08:56Between then
08:57and probably 1934,
08:591935,
09:00those people deserted
09:02your movement
09:03or deserted
09:03being associated with you.
09:06And the main reason for that
09:08was that they were all convinced
09:10that you were anti-Semitic,
09:13that you became anti-Semitic.
09:15Why was that?
09:17Why did you let that impression
09:18get about?
09:19Why were you like that?
09:20That did not occur
09:21until sometime later.
09:23That was not the reason
09:24these people...
09:25No, well,
09:26in the first period,
09:26there was the first period
09:27when people left
09:28because your supporters
09:29seemed to be anti-Semitic,
09:30and then the final...
09:32No, I think that's
09:33a slight confusion.
09:35They left me,
09:35that is,
09:36these well-known MPs,
09:37the sort of people
09:37I've mentioned,
09:38simply because
09:39we were coming
09:40to the election of 1931,
09:41the triumph
09:41of the national government,
09:43the party machines
09:43were absolutely omnipotent,
09:45and no man
09:46who stood against them
09:47had a chance
09:47of being drawn.
09:48I'm talking about
09:49the way that
09:49your influential support
09:50in general
09:51slipped away.
09:52And it slipped away,
09:53and the reason
09:54that today,
09:55people when they hear
09:56you're going to be
09:57on television
09:57or anywhere else
09:59want to watch
10:00because they're horrified
10:01by the prospect.
10:02The reason is
10:03that they are convinced,
10:04and on the evidence,
10:05I must say,
10:06I just don't understand
10:07how you,
10:07why you did this
10:08or why you had it get about,
10:10that you were in that period,
10:11and your movement
10:12obviously was,
10:13but you were anti-Semitic.
10:14Yeah.
10:15Now, when I deal with that,
10:16we were certainly,
10:17it's very necessary
10:18to deal with it.
10:18Deal with it now, would you?
10:19Now, 32,
10:20when we started,
10:211932,
10:23anti-Semitism
10:23was never mentioned.
10:25It was unknown to us.
10:26For two years,
10:27the subject
10:27was never mentioned.
10:29First time it was mentioned,
10:30Albert Hall, 34,
10:32and mentioned
10:33for one clear reason,
10:34not anti-Semitism,
10:35because I contend
10:36and can prove
10:37that I've never been
10:38an anti-Semite,
10:39who I define
10:40as a man
10:41who's against Jews
10:42because they're born Jews.
10:44I, however,
10:45had a quarrel
10:46with certain Jewish interests,
10:47not all Jews,
10:48before the war
10:49for a perfectly
10:50specific reason.
10:51I, rightly or wrongly,
10:53thought they wanted
10:54a war with Germany,
10:55another world war.
10:57And I, as an ex-serviceman...
10:59And rightly or wrongly,
10:59did you think?
11:00Rightly or wrongly.
11:01Did you think it
11:02rightly or wrongly?
11:02I think it's still
11:04right to say
11:05that some Jews,
11:06many Jews,
11:07for very good reasons,
11:08from their point of view,
11:09wanted a war with Germany.
11:11But you were not anti-Semitic?
11:12I was not anti-Semitic.
11:14Now...
11:14And I defined it at the time.
11:16I have the evidence of it
11:17and you can prove it.
11:18Yeah.
11:18Now, I mean,
11:19just enlighten for me
11:21because this would be valuable.
11:25What is the difference
11:26between your position...
11:29I mean,
11:30and it's a tight one
11:31and I'd like you to do it.
11:34I think three quotes
11:37will suffice.
11:38Yeah.
11:38Between your position
11:39and anti-Semitism.
11:41The first quote
11:42was Bellevue, Manchester,
11:44where you said,
11:45The mention of the empire
11:46makes the mob yell louder than ever.
11:48Let them destroy it if they can,
11:50these Jewish rascals.
11:52The red mob howls
11:54that we shall put them down.
11:55They are right,
11:56we shall put them down
11:57and we shall put the nation up.
11:59Then there was this one in 34
12:01where you said,
12:03Behind the communist and socialist mob
12:05is the alien Jewish financier
12:07supplying the palm oil
12:09to make them yell.
12:10And in the third case,
12:12quoted again from a speech,
12:15you said,
12:16The great and powerful were afraid
12:18when our fascist movement
12:20opened its crusade against Jewry.
12:22Up to three years ago,
12:24anti-Semitism was unknown
12:25as a strong force in Great Britain.
12:27Today, in any audience in Britain,
12:29the strongest passion
12:30that can be aroused
12:31is the passion
12:32against the corruption
12:33of Jewish power.
12:34It is not we
12:35who perish in the struggle.
12:37Now, what is the difference
12:38between those three quotes,
12:39particularly the last one
12:40in anti-Semitism?
12:41Yeah, I'll tell you exactly.
12:42We were in a fight
12:44with the Jews,
12:45or many Jews,
12:46I won't say all.
12:47A tremendous fight.
12:49And I hit them
12:50as they were hitting me
12:51with everything I'd got.
12:53When I talk about
12:54the Jewish rascals
12:55yelling at me,
12:56they were yelling at me
12:57and attacking my meetings
12:58with razors,
12:59bludgeons,
13:00weapons of every sort.
13:01And I had to organize
13:02the black shirt movement
13:03in this country
13:04in order to maintain
13:05order at all.
13:06But you say here,
13:07Yes, I know all about that,
13:09but you say here
13:09that we started
13:10our campaign against Jewry
13:12up to three years ago.
13:13Anti-Semitism was unknown
13:14as a strong force
13:15in Great Britain.
13:16Doesn't sound as though
13:16you disapprove of it
13:17very strongly.
13:18No, it was unknown
13:19until they came out,
13:21as I thought,
13:22and as I still think,
13:23for good reasons
13:24from their point of view,
13:25to provoke a world war.
13:26I wanted to stop the war,
13:28they wanted to have the war.
13:29And we had a head-on collision.
13:31I fought many men
13:32in the past
13:33about various things
13:34whom I don't fight today.
13:35The folly is to continue
13:37a fight
13:37when the reason
13:38for the fight is over.
13:39I have no quarrel
13:40with them for being Jews.
13:42That's why I'm not
13:42an anti-Semar.
13:43But why in that case
13:44did you condone
13:46all the violence
13:47that was practiced
13:48by your supporters
13:49in the 30s
13:50against Jews
13:51going down
13:51into the East End?
13:52Now, wait a moment.
13:53Let's look at that
13:54very closely.
13:56What meetings
13:56of other people
13:57were ever broken up
13:59by our people?
14:00It was our meetings
14:01were attacked.
14:02I'd had the largest meeting.
14:04But you went down
14:04and held meetings
14:05in Jewish areas
14:06in the East End.
14:07You marched
14:08through Jewish areas
14:09for provocation.
14:10That's been stated
14:11again and again
14:12and is quite untrue.
14:14Anybody...
14:14Some...
14:16All right, I challenge.
14:17I challenge.
14:18Can you turn a...
14:19You tried to march
14:21through all day
14:22and it was 200,000
14:24East Londoners
14:25that stopped you
14:26marching through all day.
14:26Why march through
14:27the East End?
14:27The dockers,
14:28the clothing workers,
14:29the shop assistants
14:30stopped you
14:31and even the biggest
14:32police force
14:33they could master
14:34couldn't push you through.
14:35Why did they have
14:36to bring you
14:36to the public
14:37all the way?
14:37We beat you again
14:38and we beat your friend
14:39Adolf Hitler.
14:40But we were a predecessors
14:41of those who beat you.
14:42Can we just move
14:43this camera here
14:44a bit to one side
14:45so that...
14:45Sorry, yeah.
14:47But so that
14:47Sir Oswald can see
14:48the person.
14:49Why does that bring
14:50in the public
14:50all the way?
14:50Right, just the gentleman
14:51finishing the front.
14:52I was making the point.
14:53Moseley at the moment
14:54tries to present himself
14:56as sweet and reasonable.
14:58He's not anti-Semitic.
15:00Here's a picture of him
15:01in 1962
15:03with the leader
15:04of the neo-Nazi party
15:06in Germany
15:07rapidly calling
15:08for a redivision
15:09of frontiers,
15:10the leader
15:11of the Belgian fascists,
15:13the leader
15:13of the Italian fascists
15:14and a face,
15:16this was published
15:16in your fascist paper,
15:18that's blacked out
15:19or whited out.
15:20There it is.
15:21Who is this mystery man
15:22that you weren't prepared
15:23to show in your own paper?
15:24A war criminal?
15:25You are now busy
15:27going around Europe
15:28trying to rebuild
15:29your crooked cross
15:30international.
15:31You failed once
15:32but you hope
15:33that the revival
15:34of German Nazis
15:35in Western Germany,
15:36the old gang
15:37coming out of their
15:38holes again,
15:39will give you
15:40another opportunity
15:40even though you're
15:41an old decaying element
15:42in this country.
15:44Okay, just a moment.
15:49And there's a picture of him.
15:50Sweet and reasonable.
15:52Look at it.
15:52Look at it.
15:53Trying to preach
15:54to the people of East London.
15:55Just a minute.
15:56Let him answer.
15:59Well now,
15:59you've had your speech.
16:00Can I say a few words
16:02in reply?
16:03Now, it's divided
16:03into two parts
16:05your question.
16:05First of all,
16:06you say,
16:07I'm in alliance
16:08with anti-Semitic elements
16:09in Europe
16:10and secondly,
16:11you say,
16:12I held provocative
16:13or bullying marches
16:14through East London.
16:15I'll answer
16:16the first point first.
16:17None of the men
16:18in that photograph
16:21are anti-Semites
16:22or ever have been.
16:24None of them.
16:25None of those parties.
16:26None of them.
16:27They've all
16:28specifically disclaimed it.
16:30Every single one
16:31of the men
16:32in that picture
16:33have declared
16:34against anti-Semitism
16:35and what you say
16:36is completely untrue.
16:38Now I will take
16:40Hitler was an anti-Semite
16:42but you were his ally.
16:43No, I was not his ally.
16:45And I'll deal with that.
16:47No, I was not.
16:48You've never said
16:48one word about the murder.
16:49Now you see why we had to,
16:51now you see how we had
16:52to fight for free speech.
16:54When you show,
16:55when you show pictures of me,
16:57when you show pictures
16:58of me in uniform,
17:00it was because men like you
17:01came by the score
17:02to our meetings,
17:04enormous meetings
17:05like that in Exhibition Hall,
17:06London,
17:0730,000 people
17:08coming to listen to us,
17:10which was in perfect order
17:11because we'd stopped
17:12people like you
17:13breaking up the meetings.
17:14And I did that
17:15with the Black Shirt Movement
17:17and I'm proud
17:18to have organized
17:18and led the Black Shirt Movement
17:20to restore free speech
17:21to Britain.
17:22Mr. Frost,
17:24heckling
17:24is part of the British tradition.
17:26And until October...
17:28Hittling but not shouting down,
17:30which is what you're doing.
17:32Shouting down.
17:32No Hitler had ever been beaten
17:34and kicked
17:35and had bones broken
17:37and sent off to hospital.
17:38Never.
17:39Not since the ancient time.
17:40No.
17:40But you started a fashion
17:41that you learned
17:43from your friend Adolf Hitler.
17:44You thought the anti-Semitism...
17:46Now you want to make a...
17:47Just a minute, just a minute.
17:48Let him answer.
17:49You want to bring the meeting
17:50as your friends often tried before
17:52to a close
17:53and stop the speaker,
17:54either of the speakers,
17:55having their say.
17:57And that is why
17:58we organized
17:59to put people like you out
18:01when you denied
18:02free speech in Britain.
18:03And it was a right
18:04and proper thing to do.
18:05And they were
18:06magnificent young men
18:08and I'm proud
18:08to have led
18:09and organized them
18:10to put people like you
18:11out of meetings.
18:13And since...
18:14Yes, there you are.
18:15You will not allow
18:17other people to speak.
18:19And you are doing here
18:20what you've always done,
18:22denying free speech
18:23to other people.
18:24And that is
18:25precisely why
18:26I put the people like you
18:28out of our meeting.
18:29We've done it later on time.
18:29And I'll do it again.
18:33Now, do you want...
18:34Do you want to hear the answer?
18:35Look, let him answer.
18:37You're arguing his case
18:38by not letting him speak.
18:39Yes, you proved my case very well.
18:41As Mr. Frost points out.
18:44I've proved it.
18:45Very well with people like you...
18:46Answer the question.
18:47Answer the question.
18:48Now, we'll answer.
18:48Now, the thing we want
18:50to answer now
18:51is the question
18:52of East London,
18:53which Mr. Frost raised
18:54and I should answer.
18:56I have never marched
18:58through areas like
18:59Whitechapel,
19:00never held meetings
19:01in Whitechapel.
19:03Since...
19:04Since in 1931,
19:06a well-known Jew
19:07was my candidate there
19:09so I had no need
19:10to march through.
19:12I stood in Bethnal Green,
19:14or our people stood,
19:15in the 37 election.
19:18We polled 23%
19:19in Bethnal Green,
19:2119% in Limehouse
19:22and 14% in Shoreditch.
19:25Are you seriously contending
19:27that we had no right
19:28to hold meetings
19:29in areas where we got
19:31votes like that?
19:32May I deal with that?
19:33No, I want to...
19:34No, just a minute.
19:35I want to just follow up
19:35this for one second.
19:37You were saying,
19:38in answering all that,
19:40you were talking about
19:41where you marched
19:42and where you didn't march
19:43and that you were
19:43not anti-Semitic.
19:44And I must say,
19:45I'm not convinced
19:46on that point.
19:47However, let us talk also,
19:49in addition to
19:49non-convincing there,
19:51on the subject
19:51of your supporters.
19:52There is no doubt,
19:53there is no possibility
19:54of you denying the fact
19:55that people who said
19:56they were supporters
19:57of yours engaged
19:58in vicious,
20:00provocative acts
20:01against Jewish people
20:02in the London area.
20:03Did you ever
20:04dissociate yourself
20:05from that sort of...
20:06conduct?
20:07Not only did I...
20:07Did you dissociate yourself?
20:08Yes.
20:09When?
20:09Not only did I...
20:10By expelling them
20:11from our movement.
20:12All of them?
20:13Anybody we found
20:14doing that
20:15was expelled at once
20:17because it was not allowed
20:19to...
20:19For one thing,
20:20it's a...
20:21Yes, he was expelled
20:22from our movement.
20:23I threw him out...
20:24Thank you very much.
20:25I threw him out
20:25three years before the war
20:27for that reason,
20:28among others.
20:28People were expelled
20:30who did that kind of thing
20:33and we maintained
20:34our position
20:35of fighting fairly
20:36by political means,
20:38winning votes
20:39in East London
20:40as we won votes
20:41everywhere.
20:41But on the basis
20:41of government,
20:42on the basis
20:43of stirring up race hate,
20:45on the basis
20:45of appealing
20:46to the lowest instincts
20:47of people,
20:48in the same way
20:49as Hitler
20:49won his mass support,
20:51by dividing people,
20:52saying it's a Jew
20:53to blame
20:54and not anybody else,
20:55you thought
20:56you'd used
20:56the same tactic.
20:57Not at all.
20:58Do you like the answer
20:59or do you want to shout?
21:01Yes, I'd like to do
21:02with a point of
21:03an untruth been stated.
21:04I fought some...
21:05Please be quiet.
21:06I fought some Jews
21:07because I thought
21:09and I still think
21:10they were trying
21:10to make a war
21:11with Germany.
21:12And, yes,
21:13in the 1930s
21:15they were doing it.
21:16From 1934
21:17till the end.
21:18And they came out,
21:20they came out
21:21in high...
21:22Well, that man
21:23is proving my case
21:24up to the hilt.
21:25That's the sort of thing
21:26we'd have had
21:26the whole time.
21:27Never a word
21:28of reason
21:29or argument heard
21:30like I'm trying
21:31to have with Mr. Frost
21:32because people like that
21:34are important
21:34to make free speech
21:36impossible.
21:37He's proving my case
21:38up to the hilt.
21:39Now, as far as
21:40I and Hitler go,
21:42the answer is this.
21:44I declared
21:45in a speech
21:45in 1934,
21:47which I think
21:47was one of the speeches
21:49from which quotations
21:50have been made,
21:51that we could never
21:52have any racial
21:53policy in Great Britain
21:54because we were running
21:55a multi-racial empire.
21:57The German problem
21:58was completely different.
22:00The Germans
22:01were anti-Semites
22:02and I was not.
22:04How about this?
22:04I don't...
22:05You can show
22:07anything you like.
22:08It's all on
22:08public record.
22:10We certainly
22:10have always been
22:12against the import
22:13of aliens,
22:14not only Jews,
22:15but people
22:16from abroad
22:17into the overcrowded
22:19housing areas
22:20of Britain
22:20while our own people
22:22had not houses
22:23to live in.
22:24Right, Sir Oswald.
22:24I was against it
22:25then and I am now.
22:25Right, Sir Oswald.
22:26Okay, just a minute.
22:27Now, in all of this,
22:28you've been going on
22:29about all of this
22:31and you've been
22:31dealing with
22:32the various points
22:33that have come up.
22:35But now,
22:35you are saying
22:36absolutely definitely
22:37that anybody
22:38who was guilty
22:39of anti-Semitism
22:40was expelled
22:41from your party
22:41and so on.
22:41How can you
22:42possibly say that
22:44as if you expect
22:45people to believe it
22:46when everybody
22:48who watched
22:49the events
22:49of the 30s,
22:50whoever you talk to,
22:51knows and associates
22:53your party
22:54totally
22:55with racial hatred
22:56and anti-Semitism?
22:58Either what you're
22:58saying is not true
22:59or you were
23:01the most ineffectual,
23:03put upon,
23:04unable to impose
23:05his leadership
23:06on a party,
23:06leader,
23:07that has ever
23:08been seen.
23:09Yes.
23:14That's a quite
23:15false dilemma.
23:17We were in a fight.
23:19I should not
23:20expel every man
23:22who was fighting
23:22with Jews
23:23in the street,
23:24particularly if
23:25they attacked us
23:26with razors
23:27and other weapons.
23:28We were in a fight.
23:30That's why we wore
23:31uniform in order
23:33to deal with men
23:34like this
23:35who broke up
23:35our meetings
23:36by organized violence.
23:38And of course
23:39I would not expel
23:40black shirts
23:41who fought Jews
23:42in the street
23:43when they were
23:44attacked by Jews.
23:45What I would expel
23:46is a man
23:47who went around
23:48saying that
23:49we should deal
23:50with all Jews
23:50in a horrible fashion,
23:52he'll treat them
23:52or bully them.
23:53Not at all.
23:54We were fighting Jews
23:55for one reason,
23:57to stop a war
23:57with Germany
23:58as an ex-serviceman
24:00of the first war
24:00in Erd and Trenches.
24:02I was determined
24:03to stop another war
24:04if I fought
24:04to make a war.
24:05May I deal
24:06with this point?
24:08Let's let someone
24:09else speak.
24:09Gentleman in the third row.
24:10You say you were
24:11never anti-Semitic
24:13except to Jews
24:14individually.
24:15What did you think
24:16of von Streicher
24:17who was the most
24:18rabid anti-Semite
24:19in the history
24:20of the world?
24:22Schleicher.
24:22Schleicher.
24:23Schleicher.
24:23Well, not only he,
24:26but the whole German party
24:28was anti-Semitic.
24:29That is,
24:30they condemned Jews
24:32because they were
24:34born Jews.
24:35Right.
24:35Now, Streicher
24:36sent you a telegram.
24:38No, that's not proved.
24:39I've had that before.
24:41I have absolutely
24:42no recollection of it.
24:44But wait a moment.
24:45Wait a moment.
24:46If it was true,
24:48which it isn't,
24:49I was trying
24:51to keep peace
24:52with Germany.
24:52That is why twice
24:54in the 1930s
24:55I went to Germany.
24:56And I don't care
24:58what a man's politics are
25:00or what his opinion.
25:01I'm not going to sacrifice
25:03young English lives
25:05because I don't like
25:06his politics
25:07or his opinion.
25:08May I read your telegram,
25:09Streicher?
25:10No, because first of all,
25:11I don't believe it
25:12to be true.
25:13You can read it
25:14if you like.
25:15I don't care.
25:16But it is not
25:17a true telegram.
25:19And if it was,
25:20I wouldn't mind.
25:21The telegram reads,
25:22I greatly esteem
25:24your message
25:24in the midst
25:25of our hard struggle.
25:27The forces of Jewish corruption
25:29must be overcome
25:30in all great countries
25:32before the future
25:33of Europe
25:33can be made secure
25:35in justice and peace.
25:36Our struggle is hard,
25:38but our victory is certain.
25:39And the Manchester Guardian
25:41and the German paper
25:43printed this telegram
25:44and you never at the time
25:46denied it,
25:46Sir Oswald.
25:47Well, would you like
25:48to have the answer?
25:49Just a moment.
25:49Would you like to have...
25:50No, no.
25:51Would you permit me
25:52to reply?
25:53No, you won't.
25:54You see, you won't permit me
25:54Will you please be quiet?
25:56No, you won't permit me.
25:57Right.
25:57Now, the answer is this.
26:00As I've already told you,
26:01we were in a fight
26:03with those Jewish interests
26:05in this country
26:06in order to stop
26:08a war with Germany.
26:09And anyone in any country
26:11who supported us in that,
26:13I would send a greeting telegram to,
26:16although I think
26:17I did not send a telegram
26:19that time.
26:20Right.
26:20Anyhow, it doesn't matter.
26:22Sir Oswald,
26:22I think that the main point
26:25to emerge from that first half
26:29when voices were not indeed
26:30speaking in concert
26:31was the feeling
26:33that seems to be
26:34absolutely general
26:35among this audience
26:36about the way they see
26:37your campaign in the 30s
26:39and at the same time
26:40the way that
26:41they see your relationship
26:43with Hitler
26:44as a damaging fact.
26:47If Hitler had survived
26:49to the end of the war,
26:50would you have been in favor
26:52of his being tried
26:53and convicted
26:54for war crimes?
26:55Yes, I think anyone
26:57who has committed crimes
26:59should always be tried
27:01under whatever law exists.
27:03And would you have thought
27:04that he would have been
27:06and should have been
27:07found guilty?
27:08I have said again
27:09and again
27:10that the murder
27:11of the Jews
27:11in the concentration camps
27:13was an outrageous
27:15and vile crime.
27:17I've said that again
27:18and again.
27:19When did you first say that?
27:23Oh, ever since the war,
27:24the moment I was convinced
27:26that it had happened.
27:27When were...
27:30Just a minute,
27:32just a minute, please.
27:34Quite untrue.
27:35When did you first say,
27:36admit this fact
27:37about the Jews
27:38in the concentration camps?
27:40Very soon after the war,
27:43I think when the Nuremberg trials
27:45had taken place,
27:46when the evidence was clear.
27:48Quite frankly,
27:49when I first saw it,
27:50I did not believe it.
27:52I then saw her,
27:54not only saw the results
27:55in Nuremberg,
27:56but I saw German friends.
27:57And while I don't think
27:59nearly so many were killed
28:00as were supposed to be killed,
28:01that doesn't matter.
28:02You don't?
28:03That doesn't matter.
28:03Because any crime,
28:05the murder of any
28:06defenseless prisoner
28:07is a crime
28:08and everybody must detest it,
28:11particularly professional soldiers.
28:12I was brought up
28:13as one,
28:14must despise and detest
28:15the crime of killing
28:16defenseless prisoners.
28:17Yes, but I mean,
28:18the thing is that,
28:19and not just prisoners,
28:20but the Jews in general,
28:21but I mean,
28:21as late as 1947,
28:22you were telling press conferences
28:23you were against
28:24the Nuremberg trials
28:25and you didn't believe it.
28:26So it clearly wasn't
28:27as soon after the war
28:28as you say.
28:29But clearly,
28:30you were backing.
28:31Can I deal with that?
28:32The Nuremberg trials.
28:33I am against
28:34people being
28:35judge, jury,
28:37and prosecuting counsel
28:38in their own cause.
28:39You ought to have
28:40an impartial tribunal
28:42and everyone on each side
28:44who's committed crimes
28:45ought to be tried.
28:46What about the people
28:47who dropped a bomb
28:48on Hiroshima
28:48when the war was over?
28:50Is that not a crime?
28:51Is all crime
28:52to be one-sided?
28:53Is morality
28:53a one-way street?
28:54What are we getting
28:55in all this
28:56humbug and nonsense?
28:57But I don't think,
28:57actually,
28:58that, you know,
28:58Nuremberg trials
28:59can be described
29:00as humbug and nonsense.
29:01They seem to be dealing
29:02with a fairly serious subject.
29:03if it's one-sided.
29:05But it wasn't one-sided.
29:06You are saying now
29:07that you,
29:08in fact,
29:08in the 30s,
29:10backed and imitated
29:11a man who turned out
29:13to be a monster.
29:14No.
29:14Imitation is
29:15completely untrue.
29:16All right,
29:16let's just take a look
29:17at this piece of film.
29:18Can we see this piece of film?
29:20Can I answer that point?
29:21Well,
29:21you can just watch
29:21the film first.
29:23Right.
29:34Sooner or later,
29:36in the lives
29:37of great nations
29:38comes the moment
29:40of decision,
29:41comes the moment
29:41of destiny.
29:43And this nation,
29:45again and again,
29:46in the great hours
29:47of its fate,
29:48has swept aside convention,
29:50has swept aside
29:52the little men
29:52of talk and of delay,
29:54and has decided
29:55to follow men
29:56and movements
29:57who say we go forward
29:59to action
30:00that who dare
30:01follow us
30:02in this hour.
30:03That is the permanent,
30:05the mighty mood
30:06of Britain.
30:07And I claim
30:08that in the ranks
30:09of our black-shaped legions,
30:11much of mighty ghosts
30:13of England's past,
30:15and their strong arms
30:16around us
30:17hung our voice
30:18at echo
30:19down the edges
30:20saying onward.
30:23That is one
30:25of two people
30:26speaking there.
30:27It's reminiscent
30:28either of Hitler
30:29or of Charlie Chaplin's
30:32great dictator.
30:33Which is it?
30:34Well,
30:38that's a very smart question.
30:40Personally,
30:41I think it a very good speech
30:42about England's greatness
30:44to which we've all...
30:45What's all that business?
30:45Well, don't you know
30:46what that is?
30:47What an incredible question.
30:49That is a salute
30:502,000...
30:512,000 years.
30:51But whose salute
30:52was it in the 30s?
30:54And who's it reminiscent of there?
30:55Are you saying that Hitler...
30:56Everyone in that audience...
30:57Are you saying that Hitler
30:57imitated Mussolini?
30:59No, I'm saying
31:00that everyone in that audience
31:00is not going to think,
31:01oh, there's old Aussie
31:03imitating someone
31:03from 2,000 years ago.
31:11Anyhow,
31:11that was the origin.
31:13And I think
31:14a good many people
31:14in England
31:15have enough historical sense
31:16to know why
31:17all the movements
31:18of Renaissance in Europe
31:20adopted the European salute,
31:22which wasn't adopted
31:23by Hitler,
31:24Mussolini,
31:24or anybody else,
31:25but was taken over
31:26by us all
31:27because it was
31:28an European salute
31:29and because we were
31:30fighting against people
31:31who gave the
31:32clenched fist salute.
31:33And who?
31:34It was an onset of that,
31:35an onset of the
31:36communist international,
31:37the results of which
31:39you've seen recently
31:40in the support
31:41of the old parties
31:41for people like
31:42Philby, McLean,
31:43and the rest of it.
31:44And that's what
31:45we were fighting
31:46and giving the salute
31:47of the European manhood
31:48and I'm proud of it.
31:49In other words,
31:50that's fine words
31:51and we can all
31:52take them at their face value.
31:53In other words,
31:54you would say,
31:54would you say
31:55that the wrong side
31:55won the war?
31:56No, certainly not.
31:58I'm from a country
31:59and offered to fight
32:01for my own countries
32:02I'd done before.
32:03You people come along now
32:05and talk as if
32:06we'd never fought for Britain.
32:07I fought for Britain in the air
32:08and I fought for Britain
32:09in the trenches
32:10and I offered to fight
32:11in the last war,
32:12the moment the life of Britain
32:13was at stake.
32:14But I claimed the liberty.
32:15I claimed the liberty
32:17to persuade the British people
32:18by my voice,
32:20if I could,
32:20to make peace.
32:21I claimed that liberty
32:22and it was denied me
32:24by putting me in jail
32:25to stop me making speeches.
32:27And on balance,
32:28would you say
32:29that Hitler was,
32:30it was better
32:31or would have not been better
32:32if Hitler had ever existed?
32:35No, certainly better
32:36that he should not
32:37ever have existed
32:38because his existence
32:39led to 25 million Europeans
32:42being killed.
32:43And if I had my way,
32:44those 25 million
32:46would be alive today
32:47including 6 million Jews
32:49who never would have been killed
32:51if there hadn't been a war.
32:52They made the greatest mistake
32:54they ever made
32:54when they produced that war.
32:56And who was most,
32:56who was most,
32:57who was most of all,
32:59who was most of all
33:01responsible for the 1939-45 war?
33:04I'll tell you exactly.
33:05Hitler began it
33:07by driving east
33:08and he would undoubtedly
33:09have destroyed
33:10communist Russia
33:11in so doing.
33:13We intervened
33:14and declared war
33:15to prevent him doing it.
33:16And the result is
33:17that Britain today
33:18is tossed to and fro
33:20between America
33:21and Russia.
33:22We've lost the empire,
33:24we've lost our position
33:25and we had 25 million
33:27Europeans killed.
33:28And I'm prouder
33:29than anything in my life
33:30of having done my life
33:31to stop that suicidal war
33:33which has destroyed
33:34Great Britain.
33:34And you would,
33:35and you would in fact,
33:36you would in fact,
33:37say you said
33:38that this was simply
33:39a Jewish financier's quarrel.
33:42You don't think
33:43whether we're going to try
33:45and prevent
33:45all that Hitler was doing?
33:46A clear and fair question
33:48which I'll certainly answer.
33:49No, we had not
33:50and I'll tell you why.
33:51When Mr. Gladstone
33:53wanted to have a war
33:54with Turkey
33:55in order to stop
33:56the Armenians
33:57being badly treated,
33:58the leader of the opposition,
34:00Mr. Disraeli,
34:01a Jew,
34:01opposed him with success.
34:03And that's traditional
34:04British policy.
34:05If we run around the world
34:07fighting wars
34:08for anyone who's having
34:09a bad time anywhere,
34:10you'll never have peace
34:11in the rest of your time.
34:12Right.
34:13And you'll have world death
34:14because now you'll fight
34:15with nuclear weapons.
34:16Now we come,
34:16let's come to the crunch point.
34:18Please.
34:19We started at the beginning
34:20with the story of a man
34:21who was in 1930 promising,
34:24who could have been
34:24a future prime minister,
34:26who made a gigantic
34:27miscalculation in 1931
34:29in thinking he could
34:30form his own party
34:31and carry the country
34:32with him,
34:32who then in order
34:33to somehow give
34:35the fuel for that movement
34:36allowed it to become
34:38the vehicle,
34:39let's be very,
34:40very euphemistic about it,
34:42the vehicle for a great deal
34:44of racial hatred
34:44and anti-Semitism.
34:45That kept the movement going.
34:47It wouldn't have got kept going,
34:48but it destroyed it.
34:49Now why a man
34:51as promising
34:52and as intelligent as you
34:53couldn't you see
34:54that the decisions
34:55or lack of decisions
34:56of you in the 30s
34:58were in the short term
35:00evil
35:00and in the long term
35:02totally disastrous
35:04so that today
35:05you're either a hated
35:06or a joke figure.
35:08You can never regain
35:09that lost ground.
35:10Why did you make that mistake?
35:12It's a personal tragedy.
35:13Let me take you up on that.
35:14I've dealt with
35:15the Jewish question,
35:16but of course it wasn't
35:19that in the slightest
35:20which got us going.
35:21It was unemployment.
35:22You've never heard
35:22of unemployment?
35:23There was terrific unemployment.
35:25That was the origin
35:26of our movement
35:27and of these movements
35:27in every country.
35:29Unemployment,
35:30biohousing,
35:31the utter failure
35:32of government to do it.
35:33That's why I got going
35:34and I was right
35:35when I could not get
35:37the old parties
35:38in Parliament to act
35:39to try to form
35:40a new movement
35:40and I was right
35:41in my view
35:42to try and stop
35:43the world war.
35:43And today
35:44you've nothing to show for it
35:45and when your candidates
35:46stand in elections
35:47they try and choose
35:49in 66
35:50the three areas
35:51where they can capitalise
35:52most on racial unrest
35:53and they end up
35:55with an average
35:55of just over 3%
35:56of the votes.
35:57There's nothing left
35:58to show for your movement
36:00what went wrong.
36:01That again
36:02is quite untrue.
36:03There is no racial problem
36:05of where I stood
36:06whatever.
36:08Absolutely none.
36:093%.
36:09All right.
36:10All right.
36:11No, just a minute.
36:12Answer the question.
36:13I polled 4.8%.
36:14Yes.
36:15Not 3%.
36:15No, you 4.8%.
36:17Just a minute.
36:18You 4.8%.
36:20Just a minute.
36:21Please, just a minute.
36:224.8%.
36:23A colleague of yours
36:234.6%
36:24and another 2.9%.
36:25We averaged 3.7%.
36:27We averaged 3.7%.
36:28That's what I said.
36:29And if you must talk
36:31so much about Hitler
36:32who doesn't interest me
36:33very much
36:34we polled just about
36:36double what he did
36:37five years before he got power
36:39so don't be too cocky
36:40about that.
36:41And do you think
36:42one day you may still
36:43get power?
36:44Well, there are two ways
36:45of getting power.
36:47One is by...
36:48Once you're getting
36:48yourself...
36:49One is by...
36:49Oh, no, no.
36:49...to be foisted on the people
36:51from...
36:51Oh, yes.
36:52Now we're getting to the point
36:53which of course
36:54you want us to miss.
36:55Now there are two ways
36:56of getting power.
36:57One is by a consensus
36:58of the people
36:59of the nation
37:00an agreement
37:01of everything vital
37:02in the country
37:03coming together
37:03which I strove for before
37:05and believe we can now
37:07possibly attain
37:08in the coming crisis.
37:09The other way
37:10is to build up
37:11a grassroots movement
37:12of the people
37:13but never do it
37:14until the first method
37:15has failed.
37:16In life
37:17always try to do things
37:18gently
37:19and only get tough
37:20when you have to get tough.
37:22All right.
37:22And with Sir Oswald
37:23Moses' message
37:24in life
37:25always try to do things
37:26gently
37:26we'll say good night.
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