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Emil Savundra | The Frost Programme | 1967
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00:15Welcome back with me now Dr. Emil Savundra. Most of you will have heard the name in connection
00:22with a great many differing incidents whether it was 1950 the oil for China deal, Dr. Savundra
00:29Central $1,200,000 tended to disappear 1954 the rice for Goa deal Dr. Savundra Central $865,000
00:42tended to disappear 1958 camp bird scandal in Ghana Dr. Savundra deported 1959 the Costa
00:51Rican coffee beans and then coming up to date the fire auto and marine now can we take a look
00:58at a
00:58diagram for a moment just to look at fire auto and marine to see what was going on at that
01:05time
01:06basically this is how the situation would be described by economists financiers the reporters
01:11who've covered the story that we started out with a situation where the public had a lot of money
01:18they were attracted by fire auto marine insurance who offered what other insurance companies said were
01:24ridiculously low premiums what they just said were low premiums result attractive to the public
01:32money into fire auto marine insurance probably about five million pounds probably at a rate of all
01:38three and a half million pounds a year by the end of the career of that company that company controlled
01:45by Dr. Savundra with Mr. Quincy Walker Dr. Savundra's company the situation however the money was in the
01:53company but inevitably claims started to come in and in the last resort the company was going to depend
02:00on its reserves which had been invested nine hundred thousand pounds approximately which they said had been
02:07invested in assorted well-known shares but in fact that nine hundred thousand pounds worth of money
02:14was not in those shares at all it had gone to merchants finance trust a bank in Liechtenstein
02:23controlled according to the lawyer who acted for Dr. Savundra Mr. Hagenbeck by Dr. Savundra with Mr. Walker
02:31the result fire auto eventually went broke
02:35meanwhile what had merchants finance trust been doing with the money you would have thought they would have been investing
02:41it
02:42for fire auto to protect the people who put money into fire auto
02:46in fact they hadn't what they had done was the opposite of what happens usually to insurance companies
02:52normally an insurance company will have money it can call on straight away in this case it didn't
02:59it had loaned about at least 600 000 pounds worth of its money to Dr. Savundra and Mr. Walker
03:08380 000 plus to Dr. Savundra 200 000 plus to Mr. Walker this was on a fixed loan of 20
03:16years they
03:17couldn't have it back for 20 years so fire auto couldn't have it back for 20 years result
03:22and the loan incidentally the interest on it was very small indeed the result the money couldn't be
03:27got back to fire auto couldn't be got back to the people who had just claims fire auto went bust
03:33Dr. Savundra had 380 000 pounds Mr. Walker had 200 000 pounds plus merchant's finance trust was
03:41controlled by him fire auto went bust and a great many people have not had claims paid
03:47Dr. Savundra is that true well let's start at the beginning Mr. Frost 1950 you touched on the Chinese
03:55oil deal 1954 you touched on a mysterious deal involving Goa I'm going to you know the book is
04:06ready I've got to get a commercial in for my book it's going to be published very soon
04:12and I'm sincerely hoping that your 11 million readers are going to buy it
04:17I was a secret agent for certain governments your Pencroffsky papers are going to be
04:24milk and water when it comes out you said you're a secret agent for the pope I believe it was
04:27I've never said that I've never said that
04:34other people have said it the pope told me yeah well
04:43the last time I met his holiness he hadn't met you
04:51we go much further we'll be in trouble here I think we better call it on that one let us
04:57let us in fact
04:59move I mentioned those things in passing and you've mentioned the pope in passing
05:04come up to this thing that we spent most of the time on explaining there I mean the first thing
05:09is
05:10do you let us get the first thing clear you don't deny that you have received loans from mft
05:17merchants finance trust let's be absolutely specific on the date of the loans the loan agreements
05:24which the sunday times i think is the name of the rag which is now changing its name to
05:30the sunday swines that's right um that published um you have to do better than that in the book oh
05:38no
05:38the book is going to be a lot better this is one that i just had to think of something
05:42to
05:42to remind me of them but anyway um they mentioned they did they published a photostat they published
05:53a photograph of the loans on the day mentioned in those agreements most emphatically and most certainly
06:02i had borrowed the amount stated there 300 odd thousand pounds from merchants and finance trust
06:12there was absolutely no doubt about that and it was on a 20-year loan and it was on a
06:1720-year loan
06:18and you still have it ah that is the point
06:21i'll tell you when you catch me no no that question wasn't even intelligent i'm not going
06:27to cross swords with the peasants i came here to cross swords with england's greatest swordsman
06:33i'm afraid nobody is a peasant i'm afraid they're the people who gave you your money ah this is fine
06:44this is fine because they have given me nothing at all you've given them nothing at all they gave
06:52you money no they gave me no money i make that absolute categorical statement and it's a statement
07:01that they can always prove and which no doubt is provided your insurance policy back and you let me
07:09have what i gave you yes he said would you like your insurance policy back and you give back the
07:16money
07:16she gave you if you have a legal claim against me madam the high court of england will enforce it
07:23okay then just come back to the basic point you've admitted plus three thousand pounds plus from mft
07:28which you controlled do you no no no no no no no no that's where you put the words into
07:33my mouth
07:34i have not admitted controlling mft by any stretch of imagination the man who you employed for years
07:39has said so no no no in sworn documents which are here i'd like to see the sworn document in
07:44which
07:45he says that i controlled mft in all through this document he says that as far as he was concerned
07:53everything that happened was drafted by savundra and walker throughout the whole thing as far
07:58as he was concerned everything that was drafted was drafted by savundra and walker and what may i
08:06ask you does the word draft mean does that mean control in this case he clearly thinks it does i
08:14didn't
08:14i also adds i have now have reason to believe that the track some of the transactions of this company
08:19have been dishonest now reasons to believe are totally immaterial you employed this man for years
08:27either he is now telling the truth and he was a shrewd person to have or you've been stupidly fooled
08:32by
08:33this man over the years neither either dishonest or stupid neither he's a swiss lawyer what does that
08:41that means that he is playing it straight according to the swiss lawyer's book right
08:49wise swiss peasant let's put it that way a wise swiss peasant one second dr savundra come back to this
08:56point do you still have this money that you got from mft no where is it on a certain date
09:04for a start
09:05i believe it was the 21st of june this loan was taken over completely by mr walker
09:12he took over the responsibility to repay it he took over 300 and then he took over for a start
09:18i had
09:19not received 300 000 pounds the loan figure was 300 000 pounds now let's get this absolutely clear
09:28i asked for a blackboard so that i could show this um to the audience and to the 11 million
09:34odd viewers
09:35that you've got in and the presence of course but in the absence of the blackboard it's almost impossible
09:43to show you precisely what has been shown to the government look up his sleeve what has been shown let
09:53me
09:57what has been shown let me repeat to the competent authority the board of trade
10:04uh and it's absolutely definite that this 300 odd thousand bounds the figure never reached me
10:14how much of it did reach you now that the board of trade would support that statement oh yes
10:19they would oh they'd have to the facts are absolutely stubborn
10:22how much of it did reach you mr savandra yes beg your pardon how much did it reach you under
10:29your name
10:30you and mr walker and that company lent it to you and you say you didn't get it then you
10:37must still
10:37have it in that company no no so where is it it's not as simple as that let us move
10:41on to another one
10:42more specific point we've we've all observed the nature and the outline of the smoke screen there
10:48the question of the forged screen is the wrong word the forged no smoke screen is the wrong word you
10:54choose a word i would like to say lines i suppose no the sunday swine of course is is a
10:59minor one
11:00we could think of a few much better um for instance the shinside team aiming so low etc so on
11:06and so
11:06forth no no that's that's about the same standard as the one before now the forged shares um in april
11:141966 and i'm reading this and this has been approved by the board of trade 1966 under pressure from their
11:20auditors fam your company produced for inspection the certificates of shares they said they were held
11:26as part of their assets right the auditors took careful note of the dates and serial numbers of
11:32these certificates right will you repeat the first sentence which is most important april 1966
11:37inaccurate carry on from there april this was the auditors saw these on april 22 that is not
11:44inaccurate that is true now let's be absolutely clear about this one and i'm prepared to challenge
11:49this anywhere the auditors saw certain certificates before the 21st of june um we didn't get the exact
12:04dates i've got to be exact yes before the 21st of june um the date on which i severed my
12:10connection with
12:11the company the auditors the certificates that they saw then were 100 authentic no yes in april 1966
12:23when you were in charge of this sorry that statement is inaccurate i'm afraid it's not it's true no can't
12:28be i'm prepared to have the auditor up here and if he says so or no i'm prepared to have
12:32him up for
12:33perjury i'm afraid you're wrong because the fact is absolutely clear the fact this has been one of the
12:41grossest misrepresentations by the sunday newspapers that made such a hoo-ha about this why haven't you
12:47sued those on that specific point i've been aware as you know the roots are already heart attack again
12:52no no no no back with the heart attack is not that is let's not general let's not bring that
12:56i've been
12:57aware i said i've only just got back the ritz are ready um we were waiting to finish your show
13:04to serve us with one too oh well why not why not yes it'll all be fun that's what worries
13:13me about
13:13you it's all fun to you but of course it's all fun come down here certainly
13:19come and sit on a stool over here will you dr swindler slowly slowly catty monkey now
13:30do sit down i hope the stool's not fixed no right and unfortunately we forgot to think of it
13:36um let us let us start with a lady over here who insured with you mrs mills uh could you
13:45tell me
13:46what happened when you insured was well i didn't actually my husband did and uh i lost my husband
13:51in a car crash sorry in a car accident yeah and um well we my solicitor was fighting it you
14:00know and
14:00they um they refused to sort of contact him and made all sorts of excuses that um you know that
14:07uh
14:08they found some medical evidence that um you know he before he signed the policy he should have looked
14:13at it properly and which was proved in court it was all a load of trash you know and the
14:17whole thing
14:17and they kept going on like this missing is about and they offered me 500 and stuck at that and
14:22shortly before they came you know became um you know they went sort of uh liquidation um then we
14:30realized what had happened they kept missing about you know and they wouldn't um they wouldn't pay
14:34up the money they just kept sort of offering me 500 and that was it so the situation was that
14:38you'd
14:38lost your husband yeah so you left with three children yes and they just sort of kept missing about
14:44uh sort of no particular purpose you know i mean thank you very much well mine seems quite trivial
14:51compared to this woman and 240 pounds might not seem a lot to you mr savandra but it took me
14:57a long
14:57time to save it up and i've got to now pay solicitors costs plus court fees to fight this case
15:04to get it
15:05back i mean if this might be would you like me to comment on both of them this might be
15:11fun to you but
15:12it's certainly no fun to me would you like me to comment on both of them yes um oh this
15:17mic works
15:18does it oh very well oh good well it's heart-rending to hear the first story and the only thing
15:26i can
15:26say is i'd like to ask one question if i may when did the tragedy occur oh about two years
15:33ago this
15:34coming in other words for two years in the case of a death the company had not paid yeah i
15:41madam it
15:42breaks my heart to say this openly but knowing the policy for two years the policy i say it seems
15:50impossible i'd go to the extent of saying it is completely impossible that your solicitor would have
15:56allowed a legal case of that strength to have hung around for two years and the only possibility
16:03is that there was a material non-disclosure with and that the company offered you 500 pounds
16:09ex-gracia you prove that at the inquest at the inquest it was you don't know about it do you
16:14um
16:15i thought i thought the poor gentleman was dead yes don't make debating points like that let's move
16:23on this is just not funny anymore you you try to make things like that in it like this into
16:30a great
16:30laugh things like this affecting human beings the the plebs you know yes how can the peasants yes yes
16:38how can you say dr savandra on your policy benefit through care yes when it appears that in fact
16:45you benefit and in fact you don't care that's what it turns out to be i didn't benefit
16:53oh not so you're broke well where is all that money now that you've been you've evaded that point
17:00since i asked it before where is that money the day that you are the official inquirer and i believe
17:08that
17:08the government has appointed an official inquirer and i'm meeting him very soon by appointment
17:16oh well that is god's will that's what that's what let's let's move on to another case because
17:22that's what it always seems to come back to to me seems to come back the officials and the
17:26and the top people that's fine but when it's actual people involved yes but we can't deal with
17:32the people in a democracy just a moment we must deal only with officials this is well my
17:38husband was killed if you are the creditors just a second my husband was killed in a car crash he
17:46was
17:46a passenger in january 65 and i was supposed to get seven thousand pounds the claim was settled in april
17:5465 and the check was held up for other excuses until june 65 when of course it bounced which was
18:01a lot of
18:02use to me losing my husband i was very badly smashed up myself i only just lived i'm very fortunate
18:09to be
18:09alive yes but what have you got to say no compensation nothing the only thing i can say is this
18:16all these
18:17stories and the other half trending stories which i've heard recently have made me realize only too
18:28well that my selling out was the wisest thing i ever did for you for me yes for you how
18:39how do you mean
18:40that by selling out i have no legal responsibility and no moral responsibility you have total moral
18:51responsibility for all these people i beg your pardon mr frost i have not how can you you say you're
18:59a
18:59roman catholic and it's the will of god how can you be responsible and head of a company when all
19:04these
19:04things happen and you think by some fake deal with quincy walker four thousand pounds you have
19:09already assumed you have already assumed how do you get rid of moral responsibility how you have
19:17already assumed you one thing the fake deal well forget the failure how do you sign a bit of paper
19:23yes gets rid of past moral responsibility tell me that by because we'd all love to know i'll tell you
19:29you start by realizing that in your democracy you started such things as limited liability companies
19:37that you created such things as company law that you created such things as company registration
19:44that you created such things as boards of trade that you created such things as officials that you
19:50created such things as official receivers that you created such things as official inspectors of the
19:55Board of Trade, and that's how you nail yourself to the cross.
19:59And what did you create?
20:01I managed...
20:04Thank you. Thank you.
20:08I'm delighted you asked that question.
20:11I created the greatest thing...
20:15No.
20:16What about the $312,000?
20:19Just a minute. Let's not play the sidebar style.
20:21You created the greatest thing what?
20:22That the insurance industry of Britain has ever known.
20:27Why did it go bust, then?
20:29Do you really want to know?
20:31Yes.
20:32Right. You shall be told.
20:35If you are prepared to listen.
20:36Not if you are prepared to cross-examine, because this is a very poor cross-examination.
20:40I don't think I'm prepared to have another one of your smoke screens, because we all observe the nature of
20:44that one.
20:44This is not a smoke screen.
20:45I just want to come back to that basic point again, because this is what horrifies me about you.
20:49How can you hand over a company about June the 20th, 1966, to someone else, sign a piece of paper,
20:58and say that absolves you of legal responsibility?
21:01Right.
21:01Perhaps the Board of Trade aren't yet quick enough or clever enough to catch you on that.
21:05I hope they do.
21:06But how can you say that absolves you of moral responsibility?
21:11By the simple, simple reason that you have forgotten that the man who took over was the managing director of
21:21the company from the day it was formed.
21:24So?
21:26And that he had run the company all the time.
21:31You haven't.
21:33Surely you know this.
21:34Why did you fall off?
21:35Why did you fall off?
21:36Why did you fall off?
21:37Right.
21:38He'd run the company.
21:39He's therefore responsible.
21:40I can only answer to one person.
21:42He'd run the company.
21:42He's therefore responsible for this collapse.
21:44He is responsible for the management of the company.
21:47And therefore for the collapse of the company.
21:48I am not prepared to nail anybody else on the cross.
21:51You are now saying that you have this man who's responsible.
21:54You knew him for ten years.
21:56How on earth could you let him run this company?
21:58You have either to be stupid or dishonest.
22:02Neither.
22:03Which?
22:04Neither.
22:05Neither.
22:06You have surely delegated responsibility in your time.
22:12You have surely delegated authority in your time.
22:15And if you've learned the basic principles of management, Mr. Frost,
22:18you'll know that when you delegate, you delegate totally and fully.
22:22But when you delegate,
22:24when you delegate, it assumes you're in authority.
22:28And if you're in authority, you take responsibility.
22:31No.
22:31Delegation is for both.
22:33Please.
22:33When a cabinet minister delegates to a civil servant, he carries the can.
22:37Please.
22:37When you delegate to somebody, praise me you don't.
22:41Please, please.
22:41I would suggest that you get practice of management
22:43or a few elementary books on the subject and study them first.
22:45Let me just, so one last question.
22:47You can look at these people here.
22:49Yes.
22:50Widows, widowers, whoever they are.
22:51Yes.
22:52And you can feel, I have no legal responsibility.
22:55Right.
22:55And I've signed a piece of paper and I have no moral responsibility either.
23:02And it's not really the way to end the series, but it's the end of the series.
23:06Well done, Frosty.
23:06Well done.
23:07Bye bye.
23:08Well done.
23:09Well done.
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