Norm Macdonald Live S03E10 Norm Macdonald with Guest Caitlyn Jenner DD 2 monkee

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Transcript

00:00:01Well, another day, another, I call it a talk show.

00:00:06That's really what this is.

00:00:07Oh, this, yeah.

00:00:08We have everything that a talk show has, we have.

00:00:13We have guests.

00:00:15We have opening remarks.

00:00:17Yes.

00:00:17We have cameras.

00:00:19Yeah, we definitely have all this.

00:00:20We have this desk.

00:00:22It's great.

00:00:22We have that lady that shows us five minutes to go, one minute to go.

00:00:29Yeah.

00:00:29Everything that a real regular network television talk show has, we also have.

00:00:36Yeah, I would agree.

00:00:38I just think it's a little more bare bones than that.

00:00:40It's not your...

00:00:42What do they have that we don't?

00:00:45For instance, cooking segments.

00:00:48We've never had a chef come on and show us how to...

00:00:51I'm just saying.

00:00:52You want a cooking segment?

00:00:53Of course I want a cooking segment.

00:00:55He doesn't like a good cooking segment.

00:00:56I'll get us a cooking segment.

00:00:57Did I tell you, I saw old Conan the other day.

00:01:00What happened?

00:01:00He gets this chef out there with a big hat, you know?

00:01:04Yeah.

00:01:04And the guy starts making some kind of...

00:01:06And they have a bottle of wine, you know, how they put it in to find that.

00:01:09Oh, God.

00:01:10What happened?

00:01:11Conan gets so upset, he starts chugging the wine himself.

00:01:14Could you imagine?

00:01:15He's kidding, but...

00:01:17I'm going to get us, right now, to the power of prayer.

00:01:22Why don't we just have Kelson book a chef?

00:01:27Let's try it this way.

00:01:29Okay.

00:01:30And Kelson will be the backup...

00:01:32All right.

00:01:33...to the Lord.

00:01:33I like that.

00:01:34Okay.

00:01:36Oh, Lord of the universe, master of all things, mover upon the deep, master of those things

00:01:45seen and unseen.

00:01:47What are you doing?

00:01:48I want to have a cooking demo.

00:01:49I'm afraid.

00:01:50And I have nothing to work with, including backup talent.

00:01:54You know what I'm talking about.

00:01:55When the children of Israel wandered, hungry in the wilderness, what did you give them?

00:02:01You gave them manna from heaven.

00:02:03It rained down upon them.

00:02:06Why should we be any less in your sight than those wandering Israelites?

00:02:14Show us now how to make the delicious dish manna.

00:02:22Oh.

00:02:23Oh, it's manna.

00:02:26Mmm.

00:02:28That's good.

00:02:29You know what it tastes like?

00:02:31It's almost a combination of milk and honey.

00:02:37Hold on a minute.

00:02:39What just happened?

00:02:40Did you just have manna from the Bible?

00:02:44Right.

00:02:45Rained down on the podcast studio.

00:02:47Yes.

00:02:48I guess I did.

00:02:50This is crazy.

00:02:52You're not even Jewish.

00:02:53I can do that, too.

00:02:55Well, go ahead.

00:02:56Do your best.

00:02:58There's something very hot in the chips.

00:03:04Golly, man.

00:03:05What is that?

00:03:06You said milk and honey?

00:03:08I know.

00:03:08You didn't eat any of them, right?

00:03:09They're burning hot.

00:03:11What?

00:03:12Watch it.

00:03:13Wow.

00:03:14Oh, that is hot.

00:03:16That's spicy.

00:03:17I'm an Israelite.

00:03:18I can do better than that.

00:03:19Really?

00:03:20Yeah.

00:03:20You think you could make manna rain from heaven?

00:03:23I'm a chosen one.

00:03:24Do your best, man.

00:03:25Oh, great Yahweh.

00:03:28Adonai, you have always been there for my forefathers in their time of need.

00:03:33I ask for you to bless me with your delicacies of the heavens, for I am hungry as I skip

00:03:40breakfast

00:03:40this morning.

00:03:42Oh, please, Yahweh.

00:03:44Show me your strength and your deliciousness.

00:03:48Oh, these are stones, rocks.

00:03:55I think this is a turd.

00:03:58Oh, God.

00:04:00Oh, yeah.

00:04:01That's definitely poop.

00:04:04Oh.

00:04:07Oh.

00:04:08Oh, well.

00:04:09After a while, though.

00:04:11Some guys got it and some guys don't.

00:04:15What did he eat?

00:04:16But listen, the Lord moves in mysterious ways, and today he has blessed us with all this

00:04:24manna.

00:04:25And you know who else he's blessed us with?

00:04:27Who?

00:04:28Caitlyn Jenner.

00:04:29Ooh.

00:04:29In a moment.

00:04:36Tonight, our guest for the full hour, Caitlyn Jenner, in 1976, dubbed the greatest athlete

00:04:42in the world after prevailing in Montreal.

00:04:47And now she's here with us, looking startlingly young.

00:04:51Thank you, that's a great way to start it off, okay?

00:04:55Flattery will get you a long way.

00:04:57Yes, actually, you mentioned that did happen a long time ago.

00:05:00I have the ultimate double that I don't want anybody to hopefully ever have to go through.

00:05:05I won the Olympic decathlon in 1976, got the title of world's greatest athlete.

00:05:11Backed that up, 40 years later, glamorous woman of the year.

00:05:17That's incredible.

00:05:18That's a double.

00:05:19That is a double.

00:05:20Yeah, that's about as good a double as you can get.

00:05:22Yeah, finally able to live my life.

00:05:24I'm still working on a single.

00:05:26Yeah.

00:05:29I understand.

00:05:30If we go to the, because you know what stunned me in the book, the book's incredible.

00:05:35The secrets of my life.

00:05:37I told them all.

00:05:38That's a tough.

00:05:39I told stuff I never thought I would ever say.

00:05:41Yeah?

00:05:41Yeah.

00:05:42I mean, it was a cleansing process.

00:05:45Doing a book is very therapeutic.

00:05:47I've done other ones and, you know, you kind of, but you really have to sit down.

00:05:51It was two years in the making with almost 8,000 pages of memoirs and talking in two years.

00:05:56And I worked with Buzz Bissinger.

00:05:59Yeah.

00:06:00And Buzz Bissinger.

00:06:01Buzz Bissinger, who's a cartoon character.

00:06:03He should be.

00:06:04Yes.

00:06:05He should be a cartoon character.

00:06:06Somewhere he is a cartoon character.

00:06:08I guarantee you.

00:06:09Probably in his own mind.

00:06:11But he's kind of crazy and off the wall.

00:06:13And we just got along so well together.

00:06:16We had the same kind of sixth sense of humor.

00:06:18And, you know, I told him the book's got to be, you know, I got to tell the whole story

00:06:23because this is my one opportunity to put it down in writing my whole story.

00:06:27But also it's got to be funny.

00:06:28I love humor.

00:06:29There's a great sense of humor in this book.

00:06:30And I want to read right from the beginning the author's note.

00:06:34Transgender guidelines suggest that I no longer be referred to as Bruce under any circumstances.

00:06:39But here are my guidelines.

00:06:40I will refer to the name Bruce when I think it appropriate and the name Caitlin when I think

00:06:45it appropriate.

00:06:45So I hope that you give us the same.

00:06:47No, no, that's very true because I don't, I don't, so much in our community, I mean,

00:06:53they're all up on pronouns and getting this and this and that.

00:06:56You know, I was Bruce for a long time.

00:06:58Yeah, Bruce Jenner won the Olympics.

00:07:01Yeah, and it was around for 65 years.

00:07:03Now, was that me?

00:07:03No.

00:07:05There was a lot more to me that nobody knew.

00:07:07And you can only go, you know, what I have learned over the last couple of years is every

00:07:12story is different.

00:07:14Honestly, the most fun I have is going out to dinner with like four or five trans girls

00:07:19or guys or whatever and sit around and swap stories.

00:07:23And everyone, yeah, everyone is like, there's like the most interesting.

00:07:28There are a lot of people out there.

00:07:29They sure are.

00:07:30Yeah.

00:07:30I mean, what they've been through with society, with family, with their own struggles and

00:07:36everything that they've been through to finally get to the point where gender doesn't become

00:07:42an issue.

00:07:43Yeah.

00:07:44I remember right after I came out, I got a lot of letters.

00:07:47And I get this letter from actually a trans girl here in L.A. transitioned 15 years ago.

00:07:54And she said that it was probably five or six years after she transitioned, she remembers

00:08:00going to bed one night, putting her head in the pillow.

00:08:03And she went, oh, my God.

00:08:05She goes, not once all day did I think about gender and my identity.

00:08:12And she goes, that was like a real eye-opening experience.

00:08:16You want to get to that point where that does not become an issue in your life.

00:08:21You have not reached that point yet.

00:08:22No, I have not reached it, mostly because I work so closely in this community to try

00:08:27to bring some understanding, to try to bring this issue forward.

00:08:30So I'm working within that.

00:08:31So I kind of deal with it a lot on a daily basis.

00:08:34But for me personally, no, I'm just, it's so simple.

00:08:39You know, you would think my life would be so much more complicated.

00:08:42No, just the opposite.

00:08:42It's so simple.

00:08:43I get up in the morning and be myself.

00:08:45Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:08:46No secrets, no nothing.

00:08:47Go out, get dressed.

00:08:47Double lives are very hard to have a double life.

00:08:50Two suitcases.

00:08:51Hard enough to have one life.

00:08:52Yeah, yes.

00:08:54Yeah, wardrobe, hiding wardrobe.

00:08:56Yeah, you talk about it in the book that you have the wings.

00:08:59You have to pack for a man and a woman.

00:09:02Yeah, I had to do everything.

00:09:03Yeah.

00:09:04And you talk about going through metal detectors, wearing a bra and being beeped.

00:09:08No, yes.

00:09:10Now I can actually go up on stage and give a speech and wear a bra and panties.

00:09:13And get away with it.

00:09:14And tell everybody in the audience, you know.

00:09:16Is that?

00:09:17Because, yeah.

00:09:18Yeah, because I used to, I did so many things as you read in the book.

00:09:22I just, yeah.

00:09:23I loved the book.

00:09:24Now it starts, and I was glad it started with the, well, it goes back and forth.

00:09:29But it started with the Olympics.

00:09:32Right.

00:09:32Because I was at those Olympics.

00:09:34Right.

00:09:34I remember those Olympics.

00:09:35You're that old?

00:09:36Yeah, I'm old.

00:09:37Wow.

00:09:37It had a Wontarima.

00:09:40Alberto Wontarima.

00:09:41Alberto Wontarima.

00:09:41Yes, yes.

00:09:41It was in the 400, 800, yeah.

00:09:43And Komenich, maybe?

00:09:44Yes, yeah.

00:09:45Nadia, that was her Olympics.

00:09:47So it was a big, big year.

00:09:49It was a big deal.

00:09:49And then you, the American, doing that final lap on the 1500 to seal what already was.

00:09:58But how does someone get into the decathlon?

00:10:01I've always wondered.

00:10:02Well, a lot of guys who are specialists say you've tried every event and failed, so you pick up the

00:10:07decathlon.

00:10:07But I didn't look at it that way.

00:10:10No, I've always just played sports.

00:10:13You know, I played football, then played basketball, and then ran track, and then all summer long competitively water skied.

00:10:18And I was just always competing, always having fun doing it.

00:10:21When I was in high school, you know, I got, like, MVP in all city and football and all the

00:10:26same in basketball.

00:10:27And I won the state championships in Connecticut in the pole vault, out in the high jump at two events.

00:10:32So I just played sports, you know.

00:10:35And when I went to college, I went to a very small school in Iowa.

00:10:40The coach there, a guy named L.D. Weldon, always liked multi-eventers in track and field.

00:10:46I thought he was a footballer.

00:10:47I did.

00:10:48I did go to play football.

00:10:49That's where I initially went there.

00:10:51But the track coach obviously knew what I had done.

00:10:54And so, and he was, he became like my second dad.

00:10:57He had probably the, besides my father and my parents, probably the biggest impact on my life as a person.

00:11:03And certainly athletically.

00:11:05He was a great human being.

00:11:09And I had, you know, they talk about it.

00:11:11When you're in high school and you run five events in one meet, you know.

00:11:14Five events?

00:11:15Oh, just in one meet.

00:11:16Yeah, just for high school stuff.

00:11:17Because, you know, can you triple jump?

00:11:20Yeah.

00:11:20And I go, yeah, I guess so.

00:11:22Is that a hop, step, and jump?

00:11:23Yeah.

00:11:23That's what we used to call it?

00:11:24Is that the same one?

00:11:24Yeah, hop, step, and jump.

00:11:26Is that the same one?

00:11:26Yeah, it's triple jump.

00:11:28Yeah.

00:11:28Yeah, it's an odd one.

00:11:29It's a weird one, yeah.

00:11:31But you said, you read, you said in the book, pole vault was your natural...

00:11:35I started off as a pole vaulter.

00:11:36And that seems terrifying to me.

00:11:39Looks like the most fun.

00:11:40You have to hit, like, do you ever miss that thing?

00:11:43That indenture in the earth?

00:11:44No, but I've missed my steps getting in there, because your step's got to be in the right

00:11:47place.

00:11:48Yeah, yeah.

00:11:48Yeah, but I was able to get it in the box pretty much all the time.

00:11:51Now, if you miss your steps, you just stop.

00:11:53You just abort.

00:11:53You got to run through, yeah.

00:11:54Yeah.

00:11:55Because you have to land with your foot.

00:11:58Do you have a pole vault?

00:11:58This is Adam Egan, by the way.

00:12:00I noticed he was at the end of the table smiling.

00:12:04Should we bring him into the conversation?

00:12:06What do you think?

00:12:08Adam, what do you think?

00:12:09I just did, yeah.

00:12:11You know, your dad, first of all, your dad comes to class as astonishing in this book.

00:12:15He was at D-Day.

00:12:16My dad was a big impact on my life.

00:12:19He was from that great generation.

00:12:21He was a World War II veteran.

00:12:23Fifth Ranger Battalion landed on Omaha Beach.

00:12:26You know, if you saw Saving Private Ryan, that was my dad.

00:12:30He was on the beach in Normandy.

00:12:32So he goes from the beach of Normandy to a stunning part of the book where he shows you

00:12:37a picture of the Holocaust.

00:12:41He was the, they were the first guys into Buchenwald concentration camp.

00:12:47And here he was, like, you know, 21 years old, 22, walking in, and they literally had

00:12:53carts, railroad trains, open carts, just piled 20 high of dead bodies.

00:13:01And people walking around in a daze because, you know, they knew the Americans were coming.

00:13:06And so, you know, the day before, all the Germans got out, took their uniforms off, and

00:13:12tried to blend into society.

00:13:14And so they walked in, and there was no guards.

00:13:17There was no nobody there.

00:13:18They just opened the door and came in and saw.

00:13:21And at that age, that's tough stuff to go through.

00:13:24He never really talked about it that much about the war.

00:13:27When he said when the war was over with, it was done.

00:13:30He had to get on with life.

00:13:32But it was tough.

00:13:34But it was always, he was morally a good person, this and that.

00:13:37He loved, you know, the athletic side of what I was doing and everything.

00:13:40And it's the one thing, the one regret I do have is I wonder how he would have dealt with

00:13:47what I've been through all my life and what eventually I decided to do.

00:13:52And he'll never know.

00:13:54And that's why in the front of the book, I dedicated it to my father.

00:13:57And your brother.

00:13:58And my brother, who was three months after the Games in 1976.

00:14:04You know, I just won the Games.

00:14:05Three months later, he was killed in a car accident.

00:14:07And so the two closest ones.

00:14:09Yeah, actually, it was a car that a guy let me borrow and he was going down to get gas

00:14:13in it.

00:14:16And yeah, so there were the two close people in my family that never got to hear my story.

00:14:20And so I thought I would dedicate it to them.

00:14:23Your father comes across as a big risk taker in life.

00:14:29And your brother, obviously, in the car that day.

00:14:33But you also.

00:14:34My mom, 91 and still around.

00:14:35I just talked to her before I came here.

00:14:37Your mother was so awesome on your show.

00:14:40Yeah.

00:14:40Oh, she's great.

00:14:41Oh, my God.

00:14:41Yeah, she's great.

00:14:42And she was incredibly accepting.

00:14:44The last one that I told.

00:14:47Really?

00:14:48Yeah, she was the last.

00:14:49She was the hardest one to tell.

00:14:51I had come out pretty much, well, all my family.

00:14:56You know, actually, it started all these rumors back in the 80s.

00:15:02And yeah, the 80s were my biggest struggling period of my life.

00:15:06I thought after Linda and I separated in 84, the next six years, till 90, almost into 91,

00:15:16yeah, I was in therapy.

00:15:17I was on hormone treatment.

00:15:19Actually, I had all the electrolysis done and had my beard removed.

00:15:22That's probably why people thought it was, I didn't do too much cosmetics or anything,

00:15:28but it was on hormones and getting rid of the beard.

00:15:31Yeah, yeah.

00:15:32Then I got to the end of that.

00:15:33And I said, I'm doing this before I'm 40.

00:15:36You're transitioning.

00:15:37I'm just, I'm going to do this before I'm 40, which would be 1990.

00:15:42Now, just to go back a little bit.

00:15:43Yeah.

00:15:45Now, you know there's something different about you when you're a little child, 10 years

00:15:51old, you sound like that.

00:15:52Oh, yeah.

00:15:52Yeah, I was just very young.

00:15:53That you're attracted to the closet of your, the bedroom closet of your mother and the clothes

00:15:59that hang there.

00:16:00Yes.

00:16:00And you would sneak in.

00:16:02Now, obviously, there's no, there's no one you're going to look to.

00:16:06There's no one in society.

00:16:07There's not even a name for it.

00:16:09We're talking 50s and 60s.

00:16:11There's not even a name for it.

00:16:12But the only thing you had was Christine Jorgensen.

00:16:15Right.

00:16:16Well, I'd seen that story and I was really fascinated by it.

00:16:20But yeah.

00:16:21There's an amazing.

00:16:23Honestly, you kept your mouth shut.

00:16:25Uh-huh.

00:16:25And then I found sports.

00:16:29Which you call the grand diversion.

00:16:32It's a grand diversion.

00:16:33That's where I can go.

00:16:35And I was also dyslexic, so I wasn't a great student.

00:16:38The words coming up off the piece of paper were just difficult for me.

00:16:41And you lack confidence in yourself intellectually.

00:16:46Right.

00:16:46And so I found sports.

00:16:49Yeah.

00:16:50And then all of a sudden, there I was on a football field where I could prove my manhood

00:16:54and also take a guy who was a good student, good reader, and clean his clock.

00:16:59You know?

00:16:59It felt good.

00:17:01It felt good.

00:17:03And I said, this is fun.

00:17:04I like this.

00:17:07And yeah.

00:17:08And then, you know, I got under track and then started doing that.

00:17:11And, you know, then I just got obsessed with sports, never knowing how far I would go with

00:17:15it.

00:17:15But I have to say, after all of that and going on and eventually winning the game, I look back

00:17:25on it.

00:17:25At the time, you don't really think about it.

00:17:27But I look back on it.

00:17:28And I think to myself that I would never have done that if I hadn't been dyslexic, if I

00:17:35haven't, wasn't suffering from identity disorders, because I out-trained and out-worked the next

00:17:44guy.

00:17:44I was not the best athlete in the field.

00:17:46And you say you weren't competitive.

00:17:48No, I wasn't.

00:17:49But I was so competitive eventually for the decathlon the last six years of my career,

00:17:59where I trained six to eight hours a day.

00:18:01I out-worked him.

00:18:02I out-trained him.

00:18:03For 365 days a year, right?

00:18:05I did.

00:18:05Yeah.

00:18:05I trained full-time all year round.

00:18:08Because you had lost in 72.

00:18:09Well, I didn't lose.

00:18:11I never should have made it on the team in 1972.

00:18:14You know, it's three people make it, one tournament.

00:18:16I wasn't even ranked in the top 10.

00:18:18I was in 11th place after the first day, first five events.

00:18:22Second day, I start off with the hurdles.

00:18:24I'm in 11th.

00:18:25I go to the discus with the best throw of my life and move to 10th.

00:18:28So I'm in 10th place with three to go and the top three move on.

00:18:31Go to the pole vault, 10th to 7th.

00:18:34Javelin, 7th to 5th.

00:18:36And I get, I'm in 5th place.

00:18:38My last running event is at 1,500 meters and it's my best running event.

00:18:42And I had to beat the guy who was in third place by 18 seconds in the race.

00:18:46And ran an 8 second personal best time and beat him by 21 seconds.

00:18:49Oh, wow.

00:18:50And snuck into third.

00:18:51Wow.

00:18:51Oh, you got a bronze medal?

00:18:53No, that was for the trials.

00:18:55Oh, for the trials.

00:18:55That was just to make it on the team.

00:18:57Oh, we're in the trials.

00:18:57Yes, just to make it on the team.

00:18:59Because I never thought I would ever go to the Olympics.

00:19:01I mean, it happens to everybody else.

00:19:02What an astonishing day that was.

00:19:04That was the biggest athletic thrill of my life.

00:19:06You beat him by 21 seconds?

00:19:08Yeah.

00:19:09Yeah, I ran 416.

00:19:10Wow.

00:19:11I had run 424 before I ran 416.

00:19:13Seconds are valuable things.

00:19:15Yeah, I know.

00:19:15I was pretty motivated.

00:19:17I guess.

00:19:17But that was the first time I had to reach down on my soul.

00:19:20And you know what?

00:19:20I found something there.

00:19:21That if I have to do something, I can do it athletically, no matter how bad it hurts,

00:19:25no matter what you have to do.

00:19:27So, and then that actually, that one race changed everything.

00:19:29Then I went to the games in 72.

00:19:32Munich?

00:19:32Munich.

00:19:33Got 10th place.

00:19:33Very happy.

00:19:34I want to get in the top 10.

00:19:35Yeah.

00:19:35You know, I got 10th place.

00:19:37But the most significant thing.

00:19:38How old are you at this?

00:19:3822.

00:19:39And what is the average age for a decathlete?

00:19:42Mostly latter 20s, which is their prime.

00:19:46And I stayed around.

00:19:48If you're 22 or 10th place.

00:19:49I'd only been running the decathlon for a little over two years.

00:19:52Good God.

00:19:52And here I was at the Olympics.

00:19:53Wow.

00:19:54I was like shocked.

00:19:55That's only two years more than me.

00:19:57That's true.

00:19:58Yes.

00:19:59Oh, we have to go.

00:20:00Back in a moment with Caitlyn Jenner.

00:20:05Back with Caitlyn Jenner for the entire hour.

00:20:09The whole commercial break was you asking questions.

00:20:14Yeah.

00:20:14I know.

00:20:15And then as soon as we come on camera, you do all the work.

00:20:18It's like Ralph Brandon.

00:20:19Is he to help out with just your commercial break?

00:20:22Keep his mouth shut after that?

00:20:23I really don't know why.

00:20:24We don't know?

00:20:25We haven't found a position for him yet.

00:20:28We haven't found a position for him.

00:20:30I'm sorry.

00:20:30I'm playing positions.

00:20:31Why don't you talk about what you were talking about?

00:20:34Because that's sort of interesting.

00:20:35Well, I was just saying that my uncle Brad, you saved my uncle Brad's life virtually.

00:20:42I know.

00:20:43Yeah, he was a pastor, a great pastor.

00:20:45And we knew him when he was at Calvary in Westlake.

00:20:48And all of a sudden he was gone.

00:20:50And we didn't know what the circumstances were.

00:20:52And years go by.

00:20:54And Chris brought me in the office one day and said, you've got to find Pastor Brad.

00:20:57I found out him, he's working at Starbucks.

00:20:59And I said, no way.

00:21:01He was like a rock star before that.

00:21:03And so I went into Starbucks, finally found him.

00:21:07Now, why was your preacher working at a Starbucks?

00:21:09He does make a mean lot to it.

00:21:11Yeah.

00:21:11He had some issues with the church and the church let him go.

00:21:15Don't need to go any farther than that.

00:21:17No, no, no.

00:21:17One of those deals.

00:21:18Sure.

00:21:18And so anyway, he was out.

00:21:21And so anyway, he called Chris and then Chris sat him down and said, you've got to get back

00:21:26into the business.

00:21:27You're too good at what you do and you save too many lives.

00:21:29And so, you know, we helped finance him and find him a church.

00:21:33And we started at the movie theater in Calabasas, Edwards Theater.

00:21:39And, you know, you could rent the theater at 9 o'clock in the morning for 800 bucks or

00:21:44something like that.

00:21:45It was pretty cheap.

00:21:45And we started him, 360 seats and the first service, it was standing room only.

00:21:52That's crazy.

00:21:52Brad was back.

00:21:53That's great.

00:21:53And since then, the church has grown tremendously.

00:21:56Yeah.

00:21:57Yeah.

00:21:57California community.

00:21:58He's a famous guy now.

00:21:59Yeah.

00:21:59You've given him fame.

00:22:01We try to help out, you know, and it was worth it.

00:22:03He's great.

00:22:04He's a great guy.

00:22:05Yeah.

00:22:06So you'll pardon my confusion.

00:22:08Okay.

00:22:09I try to confuse people.

00:22:10That's what I, that's my job.

00:22:12So I read from page 100 of your excellent book.

00:22:15Okay.

00:22:16Secrets of My Life.

00:22:17Girls, cover work.

00:22:22Thank you.

00:22:23So here's what it says on the top.

00:22:26I am firmly on the side of womanhood now, but I am not a woman, nor will I ever be.

00:22:34Three sentences later.

00:22:36I use the woman's restroom because I am a woman.

00:22:39I change my gender.

00:22:41I'm a birth certificate to female because I am a woman.

00:22:46So there's a little confusion there, right?

00:22:49Not for me.

00:22:50What's wrong with that?

00:22:51Well, here it says, I am not a woman.

00:22:53Here it says, I am a woman.

00:22:54I am a woman.

00:22:55Okay.

00:22:56That.

00:23:01I, my journey to womanhood was different.

00:23:04I always had this woman that lived deep down inside, but I don't, I never, I am very comfortable

00:23:10with the word trans woman because my experience was very different.

00:23:16I didn't grow up dating guys, you know, being around all the girls.

00:23:21I was on the other side of the fence.

00:23:23Um, I will never have a period.

00:23:26I'll never birth a child, raised a lot of kids, but never actually birthed one.

00:23:30I, I, I honestly, I've always felt like I don't want to put women down.

00:23:33I love women.

00:23:34I don't want to put women down thinking that, okay, now all of a sudden, yes, I am.

00:23:38I am this woman.

00:23:39I'm a trans woman.

00:23:40Okay.

00:23:41My experience was different.

00:23:42I can go to the women's restroom.

00:23:45I can enjoy all the things of womanhood and dress and be comfortable and be comfortable

00:23:50with myself.

00:23:50But it's almost like, um, finally I got to the point in my life where this little Caitlin

00:23:57who's lived inside of me all of my life.

00:23:59Okay.

00:24:00And had to hide and sneak around and do all that sort of stuff.

00:24:02I got to the point in life and a lot of it had to do with talking to pastor Brad.

00:24:07Um, um, I got back into therapy.

00:24:11Uh, after Chris and I went our separate directions and it really wasn't, uh, the reason Chris

00:24:17and I went our separate directions wasn't because of my identity, uh, it was a lot of

00:24:21other things.

00:24:23Um, and so, but then there I was back in Malibu, you know, where I had sat in the house

00:24:27for six

00:24:28years and didn't want to come out cause I never fit anywhere.

00:24:30And I'm thinking, what am I going to do?

00:24:32You know, just, am I just going to shrivel up and die here?

00:24:35Right.

00:24:36Um, the paparazzis were all over me.

00:24:39I'd have four or five cars following me everywhere.

00:24:41I went, I couldn't move without a paparazzi taking pictures.

00:24:44And if my life was hell, what am I going to do?

00:24:47Got back into therapy, um, started to bringing all my kids in one-on-one.

00:24:52The media is destroying me out there.

00:24:55Okay.

00:24:55I'm having pictures on the cover of people magazine with my face, uh, some woman's body.

00:25:01Really?

00:25:01Oh yeah.

00:25:02Uh, my mother's asking me a question.

00:25:04What?

00:25:04Do you ever think of suing or?

00:25:06You really can't.

00:25:07The tabloids, they do their stuff.

00:25:09Yeah.

00:25:09But there was every room.

00:25:10They still come up every day.

00:25:11They come up with a new one.

00:25:12Yeah.

00:25:13Next, uh, I think this week it was, uh, I'm having a Brazilian butt lift.

00:25:21I don't even know what a Brazilian's butt looks like.

00:25:24Huh?

00:25:25I do.

00:25:25Oh, you do?

00:25:26Okay.

00:25:26I don't know.

00:25:27You would know.

00:25:28No, we have a guy who went with someone who got a fake butt.

00:25:32Really?

00:25:33And he said it was hard like a rock.

00:25:35It wasn't?

00:25:36Yeah.

00:25:36I don't know.

00:25:37So yeah, that was, uh, this week, uh, Brazilian butt lift.

00:25:40Yeah.

00:25:40I'm not, obviously.

00:25:42Now, when you say, uh, uh, and so anyway, let me just finish that one story.

00:25:46So I talked to everybody in the family and the last person I had to talk to was Pastor

00:25:52Brad.

00:25:52Oh.

00:25:53That was Pastor Brad.

00:25:54Well, that came after that.

00:25:55But I mean, the last person to convince me that this is what I need to do.

00:25:58And I sat down, I called Brad up and he had seen, you know, all this stuff is all over

00:26:02the media for two years.

00:26:05And, um, uh, so I sat him down and I told him my story because faith has always played

00:26:10a big part in my life.

00:26:12And no matter if you have any faith in you whatsoever, every trans person or anybody

00:26:17with issues, um, because this book is about dealing with your stuff.

00:26:21Everybody's got stuff.

00:26:22And this is my stuff.

00:26:24Okay.

00:26:24But you ask that question, God, why did you do this to me?

00:26:28Why is this gender thing going through my head constantly every day?

00:26:32And it's not like you can take two aspirin and get plenty of sleep and you're going to

00:26:36be fine.

00:26:36No, it's never goes away.

00:26:38It just never, ever goes away.

00:26:39It's just how are you going to deal with it?

00:26:41And you ask that question, you, as am I, am I doing the right thing?

00:26:44So the last one I wanted to really talk to before I decided to do this was Pastor Brad.

00:26:49So I brought him in and we sat down for like three hours and we talked about my situation

00:26:54and everything.

00:26:56And Brad convinced me that God loved me.

00:26:58And, but it was kind of that night.

00:27:01I kind of had not so much a revelation, but the understanding that, you know, I've done

00:27:06so much in my life.

00:27:07Um, Bruce pretty much did everything he could do.

00:27:11You know, maybe it was a time for this person who's lived inside me all my life.

00:27:17Give her a chance.

00:27:18Give her a chance.

00:27:19Let's see what she can do.

00:27:20And what a great opportunity playing in the fourth quarter of life to see if you can make

00:27:25a difference in the world, um, in a very marginalized community.

00:27:31Yeah.

00:27:31Okay.

00:27:32Gender identity and being trans and all of that, there doesn't have any borders.

00:27:37Um, trans people, part of humanity.

00:27:40They're in every country of the world.

00:27:43Um, and, but they're extraordinarily marginalized.

00:27:47Like in some countries of the world, they could chop my head off and it would be legal.

00:27:50Sure.

00:27:51Okay.

00:27:51That's how bad it can get out there.

00:27:52We have our issues here, but I mean, on a global scale.

00:27:55America still.

00:27:56Yeah.

00:27:57We got, you know, we got issues, but I mean, on a global scale, it's illegal.

00:28:02Yeah.

00:28:02I think that's so cool how you said that about how, let's see what Caitlin can do in the

00:28:06last, uh, quarter of her life.

00:28:07Cause that's traditionally where you always excelled in the comebacks in the fourth quarter.

00:28:11Yeah.

00:28:12It is.

00:28:12It's pretty interesting.

00:28:13Well, he said he beat the guy by 18 seconds.

00:28:16That was the trials, but in the 76, he came in at the second day.

00:28:19I know I'm talking about the trials.

00:28:21Yeah.

00:28:22I saw that you built up a big lead on day one.

00:28:25My faith.

00:28:26Yeah.

00:28:26And so my faith played a very large role and that was kind of the last hurdle I, and

00:28:31I thought to myself, well, maybe this is the read God put me on this earth.

00:28:34Well, that's nice.

00:28:35And did you ever, cause it seems, it seems like the natural thing to do, and I don't

00:28:40know if you ever did this in your life, but we need to curse God for giving you the wrong

00:28:43body.

00:28:43Oh, I did that.

00:28:44Yes.

00:28:44I did that.

00:28:45Of course, leading up.

00:28:46But eventually I came to terms with it, that maybe this is the reason he put me on this

00:28:50earth to see if I can use my platform.

00:28:53Sure.

00:28:53Um, I couldn't do it in the eighties.

00:28:56Why not?

00:28:57Why did you never think?

00:28:58Society wasn't the place.

00:28:59Did you ever think if you, that when they put the gold medal around your neck and it's just set

00:29:02right there, the only one that at that time had ever done anything like that was Randy

00:29:07Richards.

00:29:07And she got kind of, you know, those, the media was not very good to her.

00:29:11There's an astonishing picture in the book of you.

00:29:13I know me and Renee.

00:29:14I know.

00:29:14Yeah.

00:29:15I couldn't tell her I'm standing there and I'm, it was at a banquet, you know, and I'm

00:29:19standing there and I just can't even tell my story.

00:29:21I was dying to meet her, but I, you know,

00:29:23Renee Richards, for those of you who don't know, uh, uh, a man, uh, who transitioned

00:29:27to a woman.

00:29:29Renee, that's true.

00:29:30Uh, it's two, one or the other.

00:29:32Yeah.

00:29:32Was a tennis player.

00:29:33Yeah.

00:29:34And was very, uh, uh, controversial.

00:29:37Very, very.

00:29:37Because she wanted to play tennis.

00:29:38Because of the sport.

00:29:39She wanted to play women's tennis.

00:29:40Right.

00:29:40Yeah.

00:29:41How does, does the Olympics have that figured out?

00:29:44Oh, yes, they do.

00:29:45Oh, they do.

00:29:45Actually, the Olympic committee is so far ahead of the rest of the world.

00:29:49People ask that all the time.

00:29:50The, the Olympic committee has been dealing with this issue forever.

00:29:55Um, you know, back when I was competing in the seventies, um, they would, uh, all the

00:30:01women, especially the Soviet women, East German women had to get saliva tests.

00:30:06Yeah, right, right, right.

00:30:07Yeah, yeah.

00:30:08Yeah, remember that?

00:30:08I remember, I remember they would wear, their outfits would be so tight.

00:30:12You could, sometimes you could see their penis.

00:30:14Yeah.

00:30:15The Eastern block.

00:30:16I wasn't looking down there, but I'm glad you were.

00:30:19Yeah.

00:30:19But, yeah, anyway, um, yeah, they had to take saliva tests to make sure that their DNA

00:30:26was, it was correct.

00:30:27Um, and I was even in the weight room, my last lifting workout, and this East German,

00:30:32uh, discus or girl came in and she outlifted me.

00:30:36And I thought, I got to get out of this place.

00:30:38Yeah.

00:30:38I got to get, I got to get out of this gym.

00:30:40The girls in the gym are outlifting me five days before I have to go compete.

00:30:45This is not a good thing.

00:30:46We're the greatest athletes.

00:30:48Yeah, yeah.

00:30:48And so I got to get out of here.

00:30:50And so anyway, they've been dealing with it for a long time and they've done a very good

00:30:54job.

00:30:54They don't do saliva tests anymore.

00:30:57Um, but they have cleared the past.

00:31:00Over the last 15 years, they've done a lot of studies on the trans issues because things

00:31:05have come up.

00:31:06Um, there was a, uh, African runner who, a half miler who, if you looked at her, you'd go,

00:31:13boy, is she in the right race?

00:31:15Um, and she was very, very good.

00:31:18Found out she was intersexed, basically gender nonconforming genitalia.

00:31:24And so what do you do?

00:31:26What does that mean?

00:31:28There was a, a, a sailor.

00:31:30I was going to ask, but I thought it'd be cooler if I thought I knew.

00:31:32We won't go there.

00:31:33Yeah, yeah.

00:31:33Okay.

00:31:34Now, what is this intersectionist nonconformist genitalia?

00:31:38Gender nonconforming genitalia?

00:31:40Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:31:40You're basically born with both sexes.

00:31:42Oh, like a hermaphrodite?

00:31:45You have a penis and a vagina.

00:31:46Oh, wow.

00:31:47Okay.

00:31:48Yeah, sure.

00:31:49That cat's gone.

00:31:49I can never leave the house.

00:31:50And actually.

00:31:51I can never leave the house.

00:31:52Oh, come on.

00:31:53Yeah, I know.

00:31:54Um, and, uh, actually, and there.

00:31:56Do you find, when you, when you speak, there is.

00:31:58Do you find the whole issue sometimes becomes just a sniggering thing?

00:32:03Well, it's not really, it's not really about sex.

00:32:05I know, but it's, it's like when cis guys, we call them cis.

00:32:08Cis is, you are the same gender you were born in.

00:32:12Okay.

00:32:12And some people really.

00:32:13Like cis women.

00:32:15Some people, some people.

00:32:16No, I don't know.

00:32:16Maybe most of them in the audience.

00:32:18Some people really dislike that term, cis male, because a cis male, as you explained,

00:32:23is a male who identifies himself as a male.

00:32:25And they say, well, that's, that's, that's, you shouldn't put a, you shouldn't marginalize

00:32:30a person.

00:32:32Oh, you need to be marginalized.

00:32:34Is that?

00:32:34Yeah.

00:32:35Is that the part of her?

00:32:36Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:32:36You need to be marginalized.

00:32:37It's a way to identify somebody who was basically, you know, born, lives and it's the same

00:32:46sex they were born as.

00:32:47Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:32:47I think it's the Latin word for the same as.

00:32:50Uh-huh.

00:32:51Trans woman is like transatlantic flight.

00:32:54You go from one place to another.

00:32:55Uh-huh.

00:32:56Okay, you, that's a trans, you move from male to female.

00:33:00Right.

00:33:00That's, that's that journey.

00:33:01Right.

00:33:02Okay, so you call it trans woman.

00:33:04Can I ask you a question that's, might be hard.

00:33:07Okay.

00:33:07Um, but I've been putting a lot of thought into this.

00:33:11Uh-oh.

00:33:11Knowing, you know, we'd have you.

00:33:13Right.

00:33:13You'd be our most fascinating guest so far.

00:33:18So, you know, so, so, you know you're a woman.

00:33:21Yeah.

00:33:22Even though you're in a man's body.

00:33:25But what is a woman?

00:33:27I have, um, tried to answer that in my head.

00:33:31I had one person come up and say, well, are you a feminist?

00:33:35Well, I don't call it.

00:33:37You're not a feminist.

00:33:38Wait, wait, hold it.

00:33:39That's, that's something I never really had to think about.

00:33:42Okay.

00:33:43And, and I, I agree.

00:33:45What is it?

00:33:46Yeah, what is it?

00:33:47Because feminists, I think, say men and women are the same.

00:33:51Are they are the, no, they're different.

00:33:54Their experience in life is different.

00:33:57But you haven't had that experience at 10 years old.

00:34:01No, I, I had the experience of being male.

00:34:04At least in society all my life.

00:34:07No, I didn't do my sneaking around and I lived, I did every, in the book, I did everything.

00:34:12Yeah.

00:34:13To try to just live with myself.

00:34:18And, but since then, over the last couple of years that I've totally lived on this side.

00:34:23Um, uh, yeah, I, I do.

00:34:26But the experiences are different on the female side.

00:34:30Uh-huh.

00:34:31Um, and it's been very interesting to me just to kind of watch it and how the world kind of

00:34:35treats women.

00:34:36Yeah.

00:34:36Um, women's issues.

00:34:39Yeah.

00:34:41Um, uh, from abortion to Planned Parenthood to all the other things that women are so passionate about.

00:34:49Um, how do you stand, how do you stand, those types of things.

00:34:55Um, I, I respect the rights of people, uh, from kind of the Christian side.

00:35:03Uh, I respect their rights, but I also think it's a woman's choice.

00:35:07Uh-huh.

00:35:08Um, and, uh, and I'm sure that will stay on the books.

00:35:12It's not like going off the books here.

00:35:14Uh, that'll stay on the books.

00:35:15So I believe in a women's right to choose.

00:35:18Um.

00:35:18Since it'll stay on the books, you're saying why even discuss it?

00:35:21It's, uh, well, yeah, there may be some issues along the way with Roe v. Wade.

00:35:26Is it a federal issue or is it a state issue?

00:35:28Those types of things which will come up.

00:35:31Um, as far as Planned Parenthood, I am, I am for the funding of Planned Parenthood when it comes to

00:35:37health issues for women because it's extremely important.

00:35:40I can understand the Christian right saying we don't want our tax dollars going to someplace where, um, uh, abortions

00:35:49are being done.

00:35:50So you would, you would say fund Planned Parenthood as long as they don't have abortions.

00:35:56As long as they can get a branch off that, okay, and they could, uh, go out and do fundraisers

00:36:02because they could raise money and do it separate from what the government's voting in.

00:36:07Well, that makes sense.

00:36:07And I think that kind of.

00:36:08I've never heard that.

00:36:09Has that been, uh.

00:36:10Well, people have talked about it, but I think that would be a good way to kind of solve the

00:36:14issue.

00:36:15Um, and I, I'm not, I'm not big.

00:36:18I'm a conservative Republican, so I'm not really big into large government.

00:36:23All right.

00:36:23Uh, I like the smaller the government.

00:36:25I believe in the people of this nation.

00:36:27Uh-huh.

00:36:27I don't believe in the government of this nation.

00:36:29Do you think it has helped to be a, uh, a conservative Republican?

00:36:33Yeah, Republican.

00:36:34Because I kind of think it's good.

00:36:36Uh, yes.

00:36:37I think it's very good.

00:36:38Um, I put it this way.

00:36:39Just to show that you're not lockstep.

00:36:41Yeah, well, put it this way.

00:36:43I would rather convince, I, I realize that the Republican Party does not do as good a

00:36:47job when it comes to LGBT issues than the Democrats do.

00:36:50I get that.

00:36:51Okay.

00:36:51Yeah.

00:36:52Um, but on the big scale, because I'm just not a one issue voter.

00:36:55Oh, you got that big mansion.

00:36:57Yes, I know.

00:36:58So, and so on the big side of it, I'd rather convince the Republican Party to do a better

00:37:04job with all LGBT issues than to try to convince the Democrats of, you know, less taxes, smaller

00:37:10government, less regulations.

00:37:12I just don't think that's ever going to happen.

00:37:14Okay.

00:37:14And I could never convince them of that.

00:37:16But, so I would, I have worked, and it's been a great being on the Republican side that

00:37:21I've had a very, uh, I've had a big in with the Republican Party.

00:37:27And I go back to Washington, D.C. quite a bit.

00:37:29I was back there a couple of weeks ago.

00:37:31Uh, I do a lot of lobbying for the LGBT community.

00:37:35Uh, talk to a lot of people.

00:37:36And because I am on kind of their side, I mean, I, I sat in a room before the election,

00:37:42uh, I sat in a room with, uh, uh, my 15 evangelical Christian conservative Republican senators and

00:37:50congressmen, as we would call them in our community, the enemy, um, and sat down for three hours

00:37:57at a private home and had dinner with them and talked about the issues, talk about faith,

00:38:00um, talk about all those types of things.

00:38:03And, and I made a lot of friends of those people.

00:38:06And I think, cause I guarantee you all those people in that room never had met or even

00:38:10talked to anybody who's trans.

00:38:12Right.

00:38:12Oh, I'm sure.

00:38:12And I brought Zachary, my assistant.

00:38:14Even, even you had not met a trans person.

00:38:17I had not met.

00:38:18So why should they?

00:38:19Until what age?

00:38:20So anyway.

00:38:20When did you meet a trans person?

00:38:22Uh, first one was after I came out, uh, Gina Resaro.

00:38:27Uh, she's from the Philippines, uh, a model.

00:38:29Um, she did a YouTube video.

00:38:31After you came out, this is the first time?

00:38:33Uh, yeah.

00:38:34Wow.

00:38:35I couldn't, I couldn't out myself, you know?

00:38:37So there's no, aren't there, are there no bars like the same way as there were gay bars

00:38:41when gays were-

00:38:42I couldn't go there?

00:38:43Oh, of course not.

00:38:43Can't you see that?

00:38:44I forgot.

00:38:44Yeah.

00:38:44You and me hanging out at the trans bar.

00:38:48I just don't, you know, I don't think it's going to work.

00:38:50Yeah.

00:38:50Oh, yeah.

00:38:51Oh, yeah.

00:38:51Well, that's true.

00:38:52Yeah, that's true.

00:38:53Wait, I haven't come out yet.

00:38:55Oh, that was a sec.

00:38:57Do you have any secrets you want to talk about?

00:39:00Everybody's got their secrets.

00:39:00Listen, we all got our secrets, baby.

00:39:02That's why the secrets of my life, it must be, everyone has secrets.

00:39:05It must be so liberating.

00:39:07Oh, so liberating.

00:39:09Yeah, I don't, I can, I can talk about anything, you know?

00:39:11I mean, that's what you're, it's just a wonderful thing.

00:39:14Yeah, yeah.

00:39:15Yeah, it's been, uh, it's been quite a ride.

00:39:17It's been a lot of fun.

00:39:18Um, yeah, I've been much happier.

00:39:20Life is so much more simple.

00:39:22Yeah.

00:39:23Who do you got in the open?

00:39:24Yeah.

00:39:24Who do you got in the open this week?

00:39:26What's that?

00:39:26I say, who do you got in the open this week?

00:39:28Ooh, good question.

00:39:32Um, you know what?

00:39:33I just, I, I really like Jordan Spieth.

00:39:37I think, I just like him as a person.

00:39:41Uh, actually, I like Rory McIlroy as a person.

00:39:45I do, too.

00:39:45I like Rory.

00:39:46I like Jordan because he brings his sister with him.

00:39:49Yeah, I like that.

00:39:50He is, he got voted the nicest guy on the PGA Tour by all the players.

00:39:55And who was the worst?

00:39:57Ooh.

00:39:57Bubba.

00:39:59Oh, was it really?

00:40:00Yeah, it was Bubba.

00:40:00It was really, really.

00:40:03Actually, I've been around Bubba, and he's always very nice.

00:40:06Is he nice?

00:40:06Yeah, he's always very nice.

00:40:08He'll yell at his caddy, you know.

00:40:09He'll go, 600, huh?

00:40:12But Jordan is such a nice guy.

00:40:14I like nice guys, and I love, I love, uh, when you're that good, especially at that young

00:40:19age, I got a lot of respect for him, you know.

00:40:22Yeah, yeah.

00:40:22I mean, it's a, that's a tough, tough game.

00:40:25I play golf all the time.

00:40:26Is that the hardest sport in the world?

00:40:28I've ever tried, yes.

00:40:28Yeah, it is.

00:40:29Yeah, yeah.

00:40:30I remember Michael Jordan saying that.

00:40:31What do you think is the most difficult sport that you haven't tried?

00:40:38You said it was the most difficult sport.

00:40:39Well, if I haven't tried it, I wouldn't know if it was difficult.

00:40:42I was in.

00:40:42Where do you get him?

00:40:43I don't know.

00:40:44Did you get him off the street?

00:40:46He said it as if it was the best question ever.

00:40:48It's probably not even in, I hope it's not in his notes.

00:40:52What sport that doesn't exist?

00:40:54Yeah, it's the hardest.

00:40:55Yeah, that's it.

00:40:57We'll be back with more inanity.

00:41:13We're back with Caitlin Jenner.

00:41:15We were just talking about golf.

00:41:17How was your golf game?

00:41:19I'm so bad.

00:41:20Why, were you going to invite me to play it?

00:41:22Not now.

00:41:24I know, I shouldn't say I'm bad.

00:41:26I wanted to play it in a celebrity event, but my friend told me, like, you're lining up and there's

00:41:30all these people, like, with their heads stuck out.

00:41:32Yeah, yeah, you don't want to hurt anybody.

00:41:35How's your, what are you, are you scratch?

00:41:37Not quite scratch, but I work at the game.

00:41:40I mean, I enjoy playing.

00:41:41It's the one thing that I picked up at the age of 50.

00:41:44Chris bought me a membership at Sherwood, a beautiful course, and I think she was trying to get me out

00:41:52of the house, and it worked, because I started at that age and started saying.

00:41:56But you, it's the hardest sport out there.

00:41:58How old were you when you started?

00:41:58At 50.

00:41:59Oh, my God.

00:42:00And you became almost scratch?

00:42:02Well, yeah.

00:42:03Well, I guess you didn't have any bad habits to overcome, so you could start fresh.

00:42:07Well, I had bad habits, but just not at golf.

00:42:11Yeah, that's a whole other story.

00:42:12It's in the book.

00:42:14Now, Ben Wright, golf commentator, this is about 20 years ago, fired from CBS because he said that women's breasts

00:42:22were not good for the sport.

00:42:25Oh, we're getting down into the dirty stuff now.

00:42:27We're getting down into the dirty stuff.

00:42:29This is an actual person who has golfed with and without breasts.

00:42:32Yes, yes.

00:42:33So you can say, was Ben Wright correct?

00:42:36No, I'm hitting the ball just as well and just as far.

00:42:39Probably better now than I was before.

00:42:41Oh.

00:42:42And.

00:42:43Your short game.

00:42:44They helped the putting.

00:42:46Oh.

00:42:48I can see that.

00:42:49Yeah.

00:42:50Awesome.

00:42:51Because you know how you bring your arms in like this?

00:42:54Yeah, yeah.

00:42:54You got a little extra support.

00:42:55You know, you keep that triangle going.

00:42:57Yeah, it's almost like a belly putter.

00:42:57So you got a little extra help here.

00:42:59Like a belly putter, yeah.

00:42:59Well, you would put a glove on, yeah, you would put a glove under your arm, you know, to keep

00:43:04your arms in when you're putting and stuff.

00:43:05No, you don't have to.

00:43:06You got those little babies right there.

00:43:07You can just put it straight.

00:43:11Norm's going to be the first guy to get breast implants to help his golf game.

00:43:15Yeah, yeah.

00:43:15I don't think that's going to happen.

00:43:17LPGA Senior Tour.

00:43:20Yeah, there you go.

00:43:21Actually, I did.

00:43:22Okay.

00:43:22No, I did.

00:43:23Okay.

00:43:24First of all, last week, week and a half ago, my good buddy Danielle Kang won the PGA Championship.

00:43:30She's like one of my best friends.

00:43:32I talk to her after every round.

00:43:34You know, she's a member of Sherwood.

00:43:36That's where she practices.

00:43:37And, you know, I was playing with her when she was an amateur.

00:43:40She won two amateurs in a row.

00:43:41And I was so excited for her.

00:43:43I mean, I was just sitting there in front of the TV.

00:43:45I just couldn't believe she's finally living up to her potential.

00:43:49But, yeah.

00:43:50What was the question again?

00:43:51I jumped off on Danielle.

00:43:52Caitlyn Jenner.

00:43:53Yes.

00:43:53Senior LPGA.

00:43:54Oh, senior.

00:43:55Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:43:55No, but I did do this.

00:43:57I played at the senior event last year up at Sherwood.

00:44:02We had the first round of the Schwab Cup.

00:44:04So all the seniors are there.

00:44:05So they have a pro-am the day before.

00:44:07So I played.

00:44:07And who were you paired with?

00:44:08I get with Craig T. Nelson and Jasper Parnovic.

00:44:13Oh, yes.

00:44:14Yeah, he was fun.

00:44:15Jasper Parnovic, who's a maid.

00:44:18No, I'm sorry.

00:44:19Who's an au pair girl ended up marrying Tiger.

00:44:23Yes.

00:44:24That's exactly right.

00:44:25See, boy, you know all the gossip.

00:44:27Oh, I have to tell you.

00:44:29All the gossip.

00:44:30So you're with Jasper and Craig.

00:44:32Coach Nelson.

00:44:33I don't even want to go there.

00:44:34But anyway, so I get on the first take.

00:44:38And my first question is, what tees am I going to use?

00:44:43Oh.

00:44:43Oh, now we're talking.

00:44:45Okay.

00:44:45Now we got one girl in our group.

00:44:48She was actually a former Miss America and couldn't play.

00:44:52The girl's got a game.

00:44:54Yeah.

00:44:55And I think she won 2015, something like that, 12, something.

00:45:00And anyway, she's got really good game.

00:45:01So I get on there and Craig tees on the team and Jasper and all this.

00:45:05And I said, okay.

00:45:06And I brought over, I did this on camera for the golf show.

00:45:08And I brought over the PGA Tour rules guide.

00:45:12And I said, what are the rules, you know, of where I can tee off at?

00:45:17Can I go to the ladies tees?

00:45:19You know, I got gender marker changed on my birth certificate, on my social security card,

00:45:25on my driver's license.

00:45:27Everything is gender marker.

00:45:28Okay.

00:45:30So where do I go?

00:45:31And so I asked my team, where should I go?

00:45:34Ladies tees, like everybody but Craig T raises his hand.

00:45:38He says, you hit it too far.

00:45:39You can't go to the ladies tees.

00:45:40I said, who cares?

00:45:41You're on my team.

00:45:42We're trying to make a team to win.

00:45:44Let's be a team player.

00:45:46And so I brought over the rules guide.

00:45:49I said, what are the rules, the PGA rules for doing something like that?

00:45:52And he said, there's no rules.

00:45:53And I said to him, you better make some rules because trans people are coming.

00:45:56Okay.

00:45:57You might have to deal with this at some point.

00:45:58Well, of course, because the PGA rules would not have anything about women in it.

00:46:03Yeah, I know.

00:46:05Although that's not true.

00:46:06Women are allowed to play in the PGA.

00:46:07Yeah.

00:46:08Well, yeah.

00:46:08We had.

00:46:09Annika.

00:46:09Annika do it.

00:46:11We did fantastic.

00:46:12Actually, in Australia, there is a trans girls that plays on the Australian LPGA tour.

00:46:18Oh, there is?

00:46:18Yeah.

00:46:19Yeah.

00:46:19Trans girls that plays there.

00:46:20But anyway, so we all voted and I played from the ladies tees.

00:46:23Oh, good.

00:46:23Yeah, it was great.

00:46:24And that's that much help here.

00:46:26I can get every par five and two, you know, so it was quite nice.

00:46:30Oh, you can?

00:46:30Yeah.

00:46:31Oh, I know.

00:46:31Yeah.

00:46:33Yeah.

00:46:33That must be awesome.

00:46:34Yeah, it's good stuff.

00:46:37Good stuff.

00:46:38You can get there in two.

00:46:39Oh, yeah.

00:46:40I can even for the men's tees, I can get there in two in most cases.

00:46:43Yeah.

00:46:43Wow.

00:46:44Yeah.

00:46:44Length has never been a problem.

00:46:46So I don't know if you know what?

00:46:47I don't know if it's transitioning or 67 years old.

00:46:53It's the same thing.

00:46:54But I'm still hitting the ball, you know, 280, you know?

00:46:57Well, the only thing age hurts, I think, mostly is...

00:47:01It's flexibility.

00:47:02Well, flexibility, sure.

00:47:04Yeah, of course.

00:47:05Flexibility.

00:47:05That's where I've noticed it, yeah.

00:47:07But women are much more flexible.

00:47:10I hope so, because they need the flexibility.

00:47:12Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:47:13Yeah.

00:47:14It's like good old estrogen, I guess, huh?

00:47:16I don't know what it is.

00:47:17What is it that makes a woman more flexible than a man?

00:47:19How the fuck am I going to know?

00:47:22He's a great sidekick, isn't he?

00:47:24He's absolutely no help.

00:47:27He came up with Pastor Brad, which was cool.

00:47:28Yeah, he came up with Pastor Brad, and then you having to imagine a sport that doesn't exist.

00:47:33Yeah.

00:47:34Are you running for president in 2020?

00:47:36That's what someone told me.

00:47:39I did read that.

00:47:41Well, I think you're at a Senate run.

00:47:43No, no.

00:47:44A Senate run in 2018.

00:47:45Well, they did immediately, yes, yes, yes.

00:47:49That's what I'm talking about.

00:47:50Okay, this is what they, at one point we talked about that.

00:47:54Since the political side of my community is extremely important, I work very hard at that.

00:48:00Because you're kind of in there, especially in the Republican side, that subject does come up.

00:48:06Maybe you should run for a political office.

00:48:08Sure.

00:48:08And so I would, I have to kind of look at that, because if I'm trying to make change, and

00:48:16the politics of it is very important, where can I do the best job for my community?

00:48:21That would be the best job.

00:48:22You wouldn't be president, but you'd be on that debate stage bringing it up.

00:48:25Yes, bringing the subject up.

00:48:28But on the other side, so what I'm looking at right now, because I have some other things that I'm

00:48:34working on, can't talk about, and I'm working on it.

00:48:37If they go, I'm doing that stuff.

00:48:38No, no, no, this is other things.

00:48:41But as far as politically, over the next six, nine months, you know, if we're running 18, you would have

00:48:49to make that decision.

00:48:49So my decision is, am I better off on the outside, like I am now, where I can run in

00:48:54and go deal with this group and that group, and you're on the outside, and you're more of a lobbyist

00:48:58on the outside to persuade people, or are you better on the inside to be able to, you know, basically

00:49:04get one vote.

00:49:05I mean, you know, on the inside.

00:49:07Trump has proven that the outside isn't the place to be.

00:49:11Really?

00:49:11Kind of.

00:49:12Down in Marilago?

00:49:14I mean, because, well, you're friends with Donald Trump.

00:49:17Well, I do know him.

00:49:18Yes, yes.

00:49:19And he was almost, if he'd been a third-party candidate, he wouldn't have won, but he was basically a

00:49:25third-party candidate within the Republicans, which is what you would.

00:49:28Yeah.

00:49:29So, you know, and out here in California, you know, we had the Schwarzeneggers of the world, and, you know,

00:49:34we had...

00:49:35Remember those people that ran against him?

00:49:38Which one?

00:49:38That ran against Schwarzenegger during that...

00:49:41Yeah, no, I wouldn't want to do that.

00:49:42Some odd people.

00:49:44Yeah.

00:49:45So, Gray Davis.

00:49:47Gray Davis.

00:49:48That's the guy that booted up.

00:49:49Yeah, yeah.

00:49:50That's true.

00:49:51Yeah, but we had Ronald Reagan, although he was president of the SAG.

00:49:54Have you ever met Ronald Reagan?

00:49:55I ran him when he was, yeah.

00:49:57Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:49:57Great man.

00:49:58What about this?

00:49:59Was Ronald Reagan the greatest president, certainly of your lifetime, I assume?

00:50:02Yes.

00:50:03Yeah.

00:50:04Yeah.

00:50:04He did the most for the country.

00:50:06When you met him, he has astonishing charisma.

00:50:10Of course.

00:50:10Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:50:11Yeah, he's Ronald Reagan.

00:50:12Ronald Reagan, you can't beat him.

00:50:13He's the man, yeah.

00:50:15So, which is your worst of the 10?

00:50:18The first what?

00:50:19The worst?

00:50:19Which is your worst of the 10?

00:50:22Oh, the 10 events.

00:50:24Yeah.

00:50:26You can't remember the 10 events?

00:50:28Well, I do remember the 10 events, but I'm just looking at it as I look at it.

00:50:31Um, my worst.

00:50:33That's a bad head right inside.

00:50:35Yeah.

00:50:36Um, that's a good question.

00:50:38Can I guess?

00:50:39Yes, you can guess.

00:50:40Um, um.

00:50:41I would guess the long jump.

00:50:48Right.

00:50:49I would say the long jump, the 100 meters long jump.

00:50:51I was not given the gift of great speed, okay?

00:50:55I had good speed.

00:50:56Uh-huh.

00:50:56And I ran like 10, 9 in the 100 meters.

00:50:58You have remarkably, in the picture of you pole vaulting, remarkably slender legs.

00:51:04Okay.

00:51:04Here's the deal on the legs.

00:51:06For an athlete.

00:51:07Okay.

00:51:07Here's the deal on the legs.

00:51:07Very feminine.

00:51:08Okay.

00:51:09Yeah.

00:51:09Okay.

00:51:10Here's the deal on the legs.

00:51:12Um, yes.

00:51:13What is the deal on the legs?

00:51:14Well, I used to always, they always used to look at my legs.

00:51:19Like, after the games and stuff like that, or jocks would look at your legs and they'd

00:51:22go, oh my God, your legs are so skinny.

00:51:24How did you do that?

00:51:26And my line was, these legs were made to go, not to show.

00:51:32Okay.

00:51:33So that was a good line.

00:51:34Yeah, that was a good line.

00:51:34It was a great line.

00:51:35Yeah, that kind of solves the skinny legs.

00:51:37Now.

00:51:39There, look at that.

00:51:39Okay.

00:51:40Now, that picture playing golf, today.

00:51:43It fits.

00:51:44I said, wait a second, I got to change that line.

00:51:46Oh, right, right, right.

00:51:48These legs are made to show and don't have to go.

00:51:51Oh, my God.

00:51:52See?

00:51:53Yeah.

00:51:53So, yeah, I got it all figured out.

00:51:55After the Olympics, you virtually quit.

00:51:58I never did it again.

00:51:59That's incredible.

00:52:01Right?

00:52:01Not really.

00:52:02And then that's when the grand diversion was gone.

00:52:05And that scared me.

00:52:06That's why I say in the book, I talk about that next morning, waking up and looking in

00:52:11the mirror and...

00:52:12Naked.

00:52:13With a gold medalist.

00:52:14Not a stitch on with a gold medalist.

00:52:15It was on the counter there.

00:52:16Put it on and looked in the mirror and, oh, my God.

00:52:20What do I do now?

00:52:21You know?

00:52:22Where do I go?

00:52:23Yeah.

00:52:25And it was really very scary.

00:52:27It was very scary.

00:52:28You know how you said?

00:52:30You were Bruce with Caitlyn inside.

00:52:33Right.

00:52:33And now you're Caitlyn with Bruce inside.

00:52:35I still race cars, fly airplanes, do all that stuff.

00:52:38Yeah.

00:52:38You do some crazy stuff.

00:52:40I have.

00:52:41I just, I enjoy life.

00:52:42Did you get that from your dad?

00:52:43He was a...

00:52:43Probably.

00:52:44Yeah.

00:52:44I just, I just like living life.

00:52:46But, you know, it's not like self-destruction because you're, or nothing like that.

00:52:52No.

00:52:53No.

00:52:53Nothing like that.

00:52:54I just enjoy doing it.

00:52:55Were your parents way out for you?

00:52:56Somebody gives you a really hot, fast race car and get on the racetrack and...

00:52:59I don't drive.

00:53:00Go bang them around a little bit.

00:53:02Bang fenders.

00:53:03Oh.

00:53:03That's so much fun.

00:53:04Oh.

00:53:05Yeah.

00:53:05So much fun.

00:53:06No.

00:53:07Sounds like my...

00:53:07I had aerobatic airplanes.

00:53:08I flew aerobatics and flipped them around them and did all...

00:53:10I heard that you did everything and the only guy that could, would not throw up was your

00:53:15dad.

00:53:15My dad, my dad was the toughest one ever in the pits.

00:53:18Yeah.

00:53:18Aerobatic airplane.

00:53:19Yeah.

00:53:20It's called the pits.

00:53:21Yeah.

00:53:21Yes.

00:53:22Thank you.

00:53:22You know about that stuff.

00:53:23Yeah.

00:53:23It's a little biplane.

00:53:25Yeah.

00:53:26Yeah.

00:53:26What'd you think when Harrison Ford went down?

00:53:30Twice.

00:53:31Twice.

00:53:31Well, fortunately, the good news is, well, two mistakes.

00:53:34He went in once.

00:53:36You know, he was a very good pilot because he got it in and survived.

00:53:39Yeah.

00:53:40Okay.

00:53:40That's, you know.

00:53:41That's true.

00:53:42A pinmer.

00:53:43He landed on a pinmer.

00:53:44And, yeah, the other one, I don't know what the mistake was.

00:53:47Yeah, obviously, he landed on a taxiway.

00:53:49Yeah.

00:53:50NBA doesn't like that.

00:53:51Have you ever had any near...

00:53:52No.

00:53:53No.

00:53:53I've been flying 40 years, pushing 5,000 hours of sitting in the seat and never had a problem.

00:54:02Wow.

00:54:03Yeah.

00:54:03Yeah, never had a problem.

00:54:05God, I'm such a coward.

00:54:08Yeah.

00:54:08Well, yeah.

00:54:09I feel like I'm a brave person trapped in a coward's body.

00:54:14Everybody has their stuff.

00:54:16Yeah, and that's it.

00:54:17Everybody's got their stuff, man.

00:54:19Everybody's got their stuff.

00:54:20Didn't you have a...

00:54:21You said you had a question.

00:54:22I want to know about Can't Stop the Music.

00:54:24How did that come about?

00:54:27This whole interview, right down, right into the toilet.

00:54:32Can't Stop the Music.

00:54:34Can't Stop the Music.

00:54:35Does anybody in the audience even know what Can't Stop the Music was?

00:54:38Thank you, right there.

00:54:38We got two right there.

00:54:39Nobody else knows.

00:54:40For the People at Home, Can't Stop the Music.

00:54:42Yeah.

00:54:43For the People at Home, Can't Stop the Music was a movie in 1978.

00:54:47The Village People.

00:54:47It was on the start of The Village People.

00:54:48Yeah.

00:54:48It came out in like 81, somewhere around there.

00:54:51It was a feature movie that I did with the village people.

00:54:56Gay icons.

00:54:58Gay icons.

00:54:59Absolutely.

00:54:59Now, when I was young, I didn't think they were gay.

00:55:01I thought they were just Indians.

00:55:02Yeah, I know.

00:55:03Yeah, Indians.

00:55:04Cowboys, Indians, all that kind of stuff.

00:55:06Yeah, yeah.

00:55:07Hey, what about this?

00:55:08It was actually a fun movie to do.

00:55:10It seems like it was.

00:55:11I was thinking, I knew a person who transitioned just recently.

00:55:14But first, he came out.

00:55:15And I think this actually happened with Chastity Bono, too.

00:55:18First, he came out as gay.

00:55:21Then, he realized...

00:55:23Who's that?

00:55:24Just a friend of mine.

00:55:25Oh, okay.

00:55:26But I believe Chastity Bono, too, at first, just said that she was gay.

00:55:30But you didn't have that problem because you liked women.

00:55:33Everybody's journey is different.

00:55:34And you liked women.

00:55:35So, you knew that...

00:55:37I was always with women, yes.

00:55:39So, you knew you weren't gay.

00:55:40No, I never had gay tendencies.

00:55:42Right, right.

00:55:42Okay.

00:55:43You know, the old saying is, and it's kind of cliche, but sexuality is basically who do

00:55:51you go to bed with.

00:55:52Right.

00:55:52Gender identity is who you go to bed as.

00:55:56I'm going to ask you a simple question.

00:55:58Are you ready?

00:55:59You're going to ask me as it's both the same?

00:56:00A question that you've never been asked before.

00:56:02Really?

00:56:03I can just ask the ladies in the audience, too.

00:56:05Okay.

00:56:05Okay, but I'll just do it for your son.

00:56:09When did you know you were a boy?

00:56:14Oh, always?

00:56:18Think about it.

00:56:19Not always.

00:56:21When did you know you were a boy?

00:56:24When I was attracted to girls.

00:56:27Okay.

00:56:29And the reason I asked that question.

00:56:31I think I'm wrong.

00:56:32Yeah.

00:56:33I think you're confused.

00:56:35Well, you were piercing eyes.

00:56:36No.

00:56:37Yeah.

00:56:38No, because the reason I asked that question is for that 30 seconds.

00:56:41I really don't know.

00:56:42That's my real question.

00:56:44Thank you.

00:56:44But the reason I asked the question is because for the first time probably in your life,

00:56:49you thought, you didn't think about, it wasn't about sexuality, about less than that.

00:56:52And you, of course, you brought it over to that because it's all about sex for you.

00:56:56Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:56:56But.

00:56:57Well, that was my second.

00:56:58Yeah.

00:56:58Yeah, I know.

00:56:58Because I thought it was wrong because you kept looking at it.

00:57:00For that 30 seconds, you sat, you know, kind of go into your soul and say, wait a second.

00:57:06When did I know this?

00:57:08Well, see, that's what a trans person goes through.

00:57:11365 days out of the year, their entire life.

00:57:14They never, you can't take two aspirin, get plenty of sleep and walk away and you're going to be fine.

00:57:19It's just how you're going to deal with it.

00:57:21And it's about, it's not about sexuality, it's about who you are in your soul.

00:57:27And there's medical studies, this and that, about how the brain forms, the male form, the male brain, the female

00:57:35brain.

00:57:35In some cases, they just don't coordinate very well with your biological sex and your psychological soul, basically.

00:57:43And that's what, that's what.

00:57:44But it really doesn't matter.

00:57:46It's just, it's just what you, but that's, that sounds extraordinarily tough.

00:57:53Like, life's tough enough.

00:57:55Yeah, you're telling me?

00:57:57You read the book?

00:57:59Yeah, you have this one question that just.

00:58:01It constantly is in your head.

00:58:03Yeah.

00:58:03You can, it never goes away.

00:58:06It's just how you're going to deal with it.

00:58:08And my journey is different.

00:58:09I like the humility that you show in the book, by the way.

00:58:11You say you're not brave.

00:58:14No, no.

00:58:14That you were, in fact, a coward.

00:58:17And then finally.

00:58:18To do it for 65 years, I was a coward to do it.

00:58:20Yeah.

00:58:21But see what happened?

00:58:22I got to the point where I had that conversation with Brad.

00:58:24I had my peace with my family and eventually got to my mom.

00:58:28I had my peace with God.

00:58:29And this, and the next one was, you know, how the heck am I going to pull this off?

00:58:33The public.

00:58:34And that's when I called little Alan over there.

00:58:36Oh, Alan.

00:58:37Yes, yes.

00:58:37Who was my PR guy.

00:58:39He killed that time story quick.

00:58:41Yeah.

00:58:42Yeah.

00:58:42I killed that time story a million years ago.

00:58:45And he was the first person.

00:58:47We hadn't really talked in over 25 years.

00:58:51I couldn't believe he was still at Rogers and Cowan.

00:58:53I called Rogers and Cowan.

00:58:54And I thought.

00:58:55Most guys move around.

00:58:56Yeah, I know.

00:58:57Most guys do.

00:58:58They actually find another job or start their own company.

00:59:00Yeah, sure.

00:59:01And so anyway, I called Rogers and Cowan.

00:59:02I called information.

00:59:04Called Rogers and Cowan.

00:59:05They come on.

00:59:06I say, Alan, you're up, please.

00:59:08And they went.

00:59:08Same on.

00:59:09Yeah, yeah.

00:59:10I know.

00:59:11Now he's president of Rogers and Cowan.

00:59:13He was a little cub PR guy at the time.

00:59:15I called Alan.

00:59:16We sat down.

00:59:16We started figuring out, okay, how can we do this?

00:59:19Because Alan knew the story from back in the 80s with killing the New York Times article.

00:59:23And so anyway, that was the beginning of it all.

00:59:28And I have to admit, with Alan's help and everything, it could not have gone better.

00:59:35Because I was in the gutter.

00:59:37I mean, I was on every tabloid, every rumor, tabloid stuff, I mean, for years.

00:59:44And when, you know, we picked Diane Sawyer and then she decided to do it, we couldn't have done it

00:59:49with a better place.

00:59:51It was ABC News.

00:59:52It was not the trash.

00:59:53It was not the, you know.

00:59:54It was ABC News.

00:59:55It was credible.

00:59:56She got two hours instead of one.

00:59:59It's Diane Sawyer.

01:00:00It's a news story, hard news story.

01:00:02And she did more, not just on me, but on this issue.

01:00:06And it just, you can only tell your story the first time once and couldn't have done better.

01:00:11And then Vanity Fair, just two months later.

01:00:13That was a great picture.

01:00:14And then, yeah, that was kind of...

01:00:16Was that, what's her name?

01:00:17It doesn't...

01:00:17Annie Leibovitz.

01:00:18Annie Leibovitz.

01:00:18Yeah, and that was, yeah, because with Diane, we didn't mention Caitlin's name.

01:00:27We, there was no dressing.

01:00:29It was just Bruce telling his story.

01:00:31Yeah.

01:00:31And then, you know, two months later, we kind of blew him away with Vanity Fair.

01:00:37Yeah, that was kind of...

01:00:38Was there ever a time in your life?

01:00:40Coming out, I was going, this, I don't know if they're going to be able to handle this.

01:00:46Okay.

01:00:46Yeah.

01:00:47My kids thought it was...

01:00:48Who, who?

01:00:49Well, my kids aren't...

01:00:50The public.

01:00:51Yeah.

01:00:51But my kids, when they saw it, they, the genocide, the boys, they were saying, buy the bustier.

01:01:02Was it more difficult...

01:01:03Because there was a lot of other dressers, a lot of other things that I could have worn.

01:01:07I had never had a, I'd never had a stylist.

01:01:10I'd never had hair and makeup done in my life.

01:01:12You know, I'd always just done it myself or with a wig or something.

01:01:15Wow.

01:01:15Never had any of that.

01:01:17I never had Annie Leibovitz doing it.

01:01:20And it was just like so much fun.

01:01:22And Annie was like crying during the thing.

01:01:24She goes, we're just changing the world today.

01:01:26That's awesome.

01:01:27You know, this is going to, this is going to blow them away.

01:01:29And although for my kids, they were a little like, eh, on the cover.

01:01:35I actually really liked the cover just because I was, I wanted to shock people.

01:01:43I wanted to bring this issue forward quickly, that this is real.

01:01:47That little Caitlin is a real person, a real woman.

01:01:52And that was important.

01:01:55So when it came out, I was so happy with the way it turned out, you know.

01:02:01And the next thing was going to be, two months later, was going to be the ESPYs, which actually,

01:02:05they decided on the week before Diane Sawyer went on.

01:02:12Diane, because it was ABC, actually, they talked and they had heard about what was going on.

01:02:18And so, yeah, so I knew that that would be my first public appearance, which was extraordinarily important for me.

01:02:30Not just for me going out for the first time in public, but I had the opportunity to accept a

01:02:37very prestigious award,

01:02:38which I, Arthur Ashe is, I knew him, wonderful human being, wonderful award.

01:02:44But I had, you know, a few minutes up there on stage to make a statement.

01:02:48That was very important, not just for me and my family, who was in the audience, but also for our

01:02:54community,

01:02:55about what happens out there, the realities of it.

01:02:58Because right now, the reality of being trans is, I'm very fortunate, okay,

01:03:03but the reality of being trans is homelessness.

01:03:08It is rampant, especially in this city.

01:03:10They all come here.

01:03:12Homelessness is just terrible.

01:03:14Our suicide rate's nine times higher than the general public.

01:03:18Kids are committing suicide all over the place.

01:03:20They can't handle it, mostly young.

01:03:2341% of all trans people by the age of 21 have attempted suicide, okay?

01:03:28The murder rate right now is, again, the worst we've had ever.

01:03:34Is this social media?

01:03:36Is this social media the reason?

01:03:41Social media has changed it.

01:03:43The suicide rate, yes, social media has had a big impact,

01:03:46because that's more devastating than it is just being bullied around your school.

01:03:49This goes out everywhere.

01:03:50It's devastating to these kids.

01:03:52But the murder rate continues to rise.

01:03:55Right now, almost all trans women of color,

01:03:58a trans woman of color is getting murdered one every two weeks.

01:04:02Yeah.

01:04:03I mean, that's the reality.

01:04:04That's a lot, because the number cannot be that big to begin with.

01:04:08Well, we have a very large business.

01:04:10What is the number?

01:04:13Well, within the millions here in the United States.

01:04:15Oh, really?

01:04:16Oh, yeah, a lot more than you'd think.

01:04:18I asked because I watched the ESPYs, and I thought you said the thousands.

01:04:22Well, I do say thousands.

01:04:27But, no, we have a very large sex work business for trans people.

01:04:34Actually, they say about 25% of all.

01:04:37They do good work.

01:04:39I've been up on Santa Monica.

01:04:41Maybe I'm saying too much.

01:04:43Yeah, I think you're talking about that.

01:04:45Leave that for the book.

01:04:47Leave that for the book.

01:04:48Did you ever have a time in your life when you said, I'm crazy?

01:04:54Of course.

01:04:55I'm talking about specifically the trans thing.

01:05:00You say, I'm not a woman.

01:05:01This is insane.

01:05:02I'm crazy.

01:05:02I totally agree.

01:05:03Right there, it's funny.

01:05:05Me, of all people, having to deal with this issue.

01:05:08But thank God it was you.

01:05:10Yeah, well, maybe.

01:05:11I don't know.

01:05:12A rugged man that's conservative.

01:05:14I mean, you can do more than most.

01:05:17Oh, I was that all the time.

01:05:19Why me?

01:05:19Why this?

01:05:20Why that?

01:05:20And every trans person does the exact same thing.

01:05:23I mean.

01:05:23And there's no bars to go to?

01:05:25Oh, there's one.

01:05:26I could go out.

01:05:27We talked about this.

01:05:28We can't go out.

01:05:29I mean, you can't go out.

01:05:30Yeah.

01:05:31I can go now, but I just.

01:05:33Oh, yeah.

01:05:33Now you can go.

01:05:33That's not me.

01:05:34Yeah, that's not me.

01:05:35I don't hang out.

01:05:37I don't go to bars and this and that.

01:05:38No.

01:05:39I go to work, and I play, and I race.

01:05:42I'm very fortunate.

01:05:43In a lot of ways, I'm very fortunate, because I see a lot of people in the trans community

01:05:47that they, you know, transition at a very young age, and then family becomes a very

01:05:51big issue.

01:05:52Children become a very big issue for them, and I see that all the time.

01:05:56I've got a lot of young trans friends, and, you know, they want to date.

01:06:00They want to go out, but for a trans person, there's just all sorts of issues.

01:06:04And in a lot of ways, and I look at that, and me transitioning at a later age in life,

01:06:08I lived a great life, and I have no regrets.

01:06:11I mean, you know, Bruce was a good person, raised 10 wonderful children, you know, worked

01:06:17his butt off, put them all through school, gave them good guidance growing up, and they're

01:06:21all out there in the world doing extraordinarily well.

01:06:24And Bruce had to be famous for Kalen to become famous.

01:06:28Actually, one of the reasons in the book, because when we started writing it, they started,

01:06:33Buzz started talking about the games.

01:06:35And I said, Buzz, I don't even want to talk about the damn games.

01:06:37I want to talk about the issues.

01:06:38I'm sick and tired of the games, you know, I don't even want to go there.

01:06:42And he goes, you have to keep it in proper perspective of why it is the position that

01:06:48we're in today and why it's such a big deal to do that.

01:06:52Most people don't remember the games from, it's 40 years ago, most people don't remember

01:06:56the games, especially the next generations coming up.

01:06:59Well, that's you.

01:07:00I understand.

01:07:04And they have to be reminded of why.

01:07:07Is that feminine in that wink?

01:07:09That's right.

01:07:09I like that.

01:07:10You like that?

01:07:11That's right.

01:07:11Because I can't wink.

01:07:12Yeah.

01:07:13You can't?

01:07:13Can you whistle?

01:07:15Did you do that?

01:07:15Does Bruce wink also?

01:07:16Or is that?

01:07:17No.

01:07:17Caitlin can only wink.

01:07:18Oh.

01:07:18Yeah.

01:07:19Or at least get the effect.

01:07:20Yeah.

01:07:20That Caitlin can get that.

01:07:22Yeah.

01:07:23And so we need to put it in proper perspective, like you say, I wouldn't be in the position

01:07:28and have the platform that I have today to add my voice to this conversation if it wasn't

01:07:33because of the games.

01:07:34That was the one that started the whole thing.

01:07:36And that's why people made such a big deal of it 40 years later.

01:07:39I get that.

01:07:40So it's kind of in the context of what I'm trying to do.

01:07:42So it probably affirms your belief in God and so forth.

01:07:50You've got to stop cursing God's name.

01:07:52So that would be my...

01:07:54Really?

01:07:57Because God loves us all, right?

01:07:59Yes.

01:08:00Yes.

01:08:01But first, we've got to love ourselves.

01:08:04How do you do that?

01:08:04And that was tough for me to do for a long time.

01:08:06That's a hard thing to do.

01:08:07Yeah.

01:08:08The hardest.

01:08:08It's a hard thing to do.

01:08:10This is going to sound odd, and you don't know every trans person, but is there any subset

01:08:16of the trans community that go, I'm fine with my looks.

01:08:20I'll accept being in this body.

01:08:22I got in a lot of trouble, okay?

01:08:26I was speaking of me personally at the beginning.

01:08:31I said that, yes, my appearance is important to me, that I want to take my appearance, you

01:08:40know?

01:08:40I don't want to look like a man in a dress as best I possibly can.

01:08:44Oh, man.

01:08:46Oh.

01:08:46Did I get hammered for that one, okay?

01:08:49Now, I was talking about myself, but then the media takes off on that, and all of a sudden,

01:08:56you know, it's like, what about all the gender nonconforming people that are out there that

01:09:00are very happy to kind of look gender nonconforming?

01:09:04Oh, there are those people.

01:09:05Oh, yes.

01:09:06They're all over the place.

01:09:07Or, you know, in a lot of cases, we-

01:09:09Or transvestites.

01:09:11Transvestites, there's a lot of things out there.

01:09:16We have a large part of the community that, in the trans community, that I would, in the

01:09:24old days, I would say kind of openly trans, so you can tell that they're trans, you know?

01:09:30And then we have a large part that are very, what I would call in the originally, the very

01:09:34stealth.

01:09:35You never know.

01:09:35Right.

01:09:36And I really had to change my thinking and talk to a lot of people to say, just because

01:09:42wording is so important, somebody is visibly trans, okay?

01:09:47You would look at me, you know?

01:09:48Okay.

01:09:49On purpose.

01:09:50And they like that.

01:09:51Yeah.

01:09:51Maybe that's what they like, okay?

01:09:53And then you have certainly a large portion of the trans community that is, especially the

01:09:58trans guys that are not visibly trans.

01:10:00I mean, I said I never met anybody until I came out.

01:10:04And then they said, well, what about Tyler and the crew?

01:10:08Oh, yeah, yeah.

01:10:09It was a trans guy.

01:10:10Nobody ever told me he was trans.

01:10:12Really?

01:10:12Yeah.

01:10:12You don't have transdar?

01:10:14No.

01:10:15And the guys are actually much more stealthy than the women.

01:10:19The ratio is almost 50-50, trans men to trans women.

01:10:22Oh, yeah.

01:10:23But you never really hear much about the men.

01:10:25Because they, testosterone is a very strong drug.

01:10:28And the changes are really pretty radical with not having to do much in the surgery department.

01:10:35Nobody knows what you got down there anyway.

01:10:38Yeah, I've been fooled so many times.

01:10:40Really?

01:10:40As a trans guy?

01:10:41He gets catfished.

01:10:42Yeah.

01:10:42Really?

01:10:43Constantly.

01:10:44You know, they start, you know, getting more male features.

01:10:46Their voice drops.

01:10:47Like in my case, you know, as a trans woman, your voice does not drop.

01:10:51Do you want your voice to drop?

01:10:54At first, I thought, there's no way I can do this.

01:10:56Because one, my voice sucks.

01:10:57I thought they could scrape your voice box or something.

01:11:01That's what I think.

01:11:02Yes, they can do all those things, yes.

01:11:04But as far as your voice pitch, there are ways, surgically, that they can help that.

01:11:10They can't make it perfect, but they can help that.

01:11:13But maybe a woman doesn't have a higher pitch.

01:11:19There's a lot of women out there, yeah, that don't.

01:11:22And so I even hear my voice and I go, oh, God, it just doesn't sound like Caitlin.

01:11:27But I don't want to go through surgeries and all that crap.

01:11:29And I really don't care anymore.

01:11:31You know, I'm living my life.

01:11:32Yeah, you've got a great voice.

01:11:33Reminds me of Fraser Smith.

01:11:34Yeah, I'm living my life.

01:11:36But, you know, even, I get it all the time.

01:11:39If you're on the phone, yes, sir.

01:11:42I fly airplanes, yes, sir, whatever it is on the radios.

01:11:45And, you know, I go, oh, God, you still sound like Bruce.

01:11:50But, you know, on the other hand, I, you know, I don't want to, it's me.

01:11:54This is who I am.

01:11:54Yeah, you're beautiful, man.

01:11:56Yeah, who cares?

01:11:57Fuck it.

01:11:57Yeah, just look good, that's all.

01:12:00You know, come on, yeah.

01:12:01Love you.

01:12:03Good seeing you.

01:12:04Kaelin Jenner, everybody.

01:12:06Great seeing you.

01:12:07Thank you so much.

01:12:08Thank you.

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