Boy.Band.Confidential.A.Hollywood.Ds.Event.S01E01

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Transcript

00:00:02Amazing grace, how sweet the sun.

00:00:16You guys ready for it?

00:00:18The Backstreet Boys are back from 98 degrees.

00:00:23That's safe.

00:00:24Take a back seat, Backstreet Boys.

00:00:26Your rivals NSYNC now hold the record for album sales.

00:00:30Thirty years ago, they made fun of the word boy band.

00:00:34It's now a badge of honor.

00:00:38A wretch like me.

00:00:49I know it has been a difficult time for you, AJ.

00:00:52It was a horrible experience for me.

00:00:54It's a cutthroat business.

00:00:55This is a scam.

00:00:58This is the first time I'm talking about it this openly.

00:01:01The people that we thought had our backs really didn't have them.

00:01:14I worry just how long their fame and their money will last.

00:01:19And found.

00:01:21I was victimized.

00:01:23Was blind.

00:01:25He was propositioning to these young performers, including me.

00:01:29Has been arrested.

00:01:30He too was assaulted.

00:01:32We had nobody except each other.

00:01:35If I had the chance to do it all over again and end up where I am,

00:01:38would I do it?

00:01:43But now I see.

00:01:47I see me.

00:01:51I see me.

00:01:53I see you.

00:02:34Ah, the stories.

00:02:38Artists have recorded here.

00:02:40NSYNC, Backstreet Boys, Britney Spears, Jonas Brothers,

00:02:42Boyz II Men, 98 Degrees, Eric Carter, Snap,

00:02:45Full Force, Man Udo, Galen Brown,

00:02:48and I don't know who that guy is.

00:02:54How many years have passed?

00:02:56Oh, gosh. Well over 20 years.

00:02:59Definitely a lot has changed.

00:03:04Here's actually kind of funny. There's a photo.

00:03:06Oh, there it is right there. You can see it right there.

00:03:07This was literally here.

00:03:08This was this shot. They were standing there

00:03:10in the alleyway and shooting us there.

00:03:13But hilarious enough, look at the big-ass TV,

00:03:15and now it's a flat screen.

00:03:16Like, look at just even simple little things like that.

00:03:19I don't know why. It's kind of funny to me.

00:03:22My name is Joey Fatone.

00:03:24I was in a group called NSYNC.

00:03:28Once we became a group,

00:03:31we were doing a stadium tour.

00:03:3460,000, 70,000 people screaming at you.

00:03:38For the five of us,

00:03:41being able to be that successful

00:03:42doesn't happen very, very often.

00:03:48Yep. Too many memories in here.

00:03:51Too many times sweating our asses off.

00:03:57Too many times doing the same song over and over and over and over and over and over and over.

00:04:08You can't deny that if it wasn't for NSYNC,

00:04:11Justin Timberlake wouldn't be the way he is right now.

00:04:14Wouldn't be doing Broadway,

00:04:16to hosting TV shows, to doing films.

00:04:21The Deadpool movie used our hit for their open.

00:04:25Now it's a younger generation.

00:04:27They are learning about NSYNC, which is pretty cool.

00:04:30It's such an amazing experience to be able to go through this life.

00:04:33But when we started, we were young.

00:04:35Justin was 14 years old.

00:04:37I was, what, 17, 18?

00:04:39I just graduated high school. Legit.

00:04:42Now we couldn't grasp everything that was happening around.

00:04:44But now as we get older, you look at life differently.

00:04:47And you realize the industry can be wonderful and can be cool at the same time.

00:04:53Would there ever be a reunion still?

00:04:55I mean, there's always a possibility, of course.

00:04:57Now many of our fans don't know the challenges that we faced.

00:05:00But throughout my career, I met other performers from different groups

00:05:04and started to realize that all these other boy bands had similar experiences

00:05:08that they kept quiet about.

00:05:10And it's time we finally shared their stories.

00:05:32You know what's up, dude?

00:05:35So how are we feeling about the shoot so far?

00:05:38Well, it's funny because I was up very early.

00:05:40So Joey and I have been talking probably for the past six to eight months about

00:05:45what stories have people not heard?

00:05:48See, we're in entertainment, right?

00:05:50So our job is to portray and to sell not only a fantasy, but entertain.

00:05:57Well, in the boy band, there is a side that's not so glamorous.

00:06:01There is a side that's not so sexy.

00:06:05If you're a human being, you struggle.

00:06:07Everybody struggles.

00:06:08It's just magnified when you're in a boy band.

00:06:13I forgot, there's like four or five people I think we're going to get in L.A. next week.

00:06:18And then it's going to be Jeff Timmons at some point.

00:06:21What up?

00:06:23Speaking of the devil, who else has done it so far?

00:06:27We're getting AJ in L.A.

00:06:28I just want to say hi to yourself.

00:06:30We're getting, I think, Nick in L.A.

00:06:33What's up, brother?

00:06:34Juan.

00:06:35Okay, speaking.

00:06:36Sean.

00:06:38Jeff Timmons.

00:06:39It's one of those things I love to hear other sides of the story.

00:06:43Basically, it's them kind of going through it and the kind of trials and tribulations.

00:06:47We've never had the conversation of just going, how did it feel?

00:06:50What happened?

00:06:51Because not many people got to experience something like this.

00:06:54Nick Lachey, take one.

00:06:57Eric Estrada, take one.

00:06:59It's kind of long overdue.

00:07:00We've had a bunch of these and we haven't really told this angle.

00:07:07All right.

00:07:08All righty.

00:07:10Easy peasy.

00:07:13These are our Billboard Awards from 1999.

00:07:16We got four of these.

00:07:18For years I didn't have any of my awards out in my house because I don't even think I deserve

00:07:22this.

00:07:27AJ is a character in a band.

00:07:30Alex is who I am.

00:07:35Born Alexander McLean, a nerdy kid from Palm Beach, Florida that had a huffy bike, played piano, loved games, loved

00:07:43comic books, but more than anything loved to perform and sing and dance.

00:07:48There was an amazing theater called the Royal Palm Dinner Theater.

00:07:52One of the first roles that I got was in Snow White.

00:07:57They cast me as Dopey because Dopey was a mute and I had a speech impediment when I was growing

00:08:05up.

00:08:05I had two actually.

00:08:06I had a stutter and a lisp.

00:08:07Of course I get to be the character that doesn't have to say anything.

00:08:12I stole the show.

00:08:17But I think a negative side of that applause is how you would perceive it.

00:08:23Why are they clapping for me?

00:08:25Do I deserve that applause?

00:08:27I didn't do anything special.

00:08:30If I were you, I'd be booing me.

00:08:33Growing up in South Florida, most boys especially would look at you like, why are you not into sports or

00:08:41video games?

00:08:42Yeah, I would get picked on a lot.

00:08:43I got bullied a lot.

00:08:44And it really started to kind of tear me down inside.

00:08:49I definitely struggled with self-esteem my whole life.

00:08:56But I had this ability to perform and acting to bring people joy.

00:09:05I have to do these things to get people to like me.

00:09:09If you look at most of the guys in that era, a lot of the reason why we choose music

00:09:15is this way to communicate and almost like, it's a call for help.

00:09:26I was probably like 10 or 11 years old, a little bit older than that.

00:09:29Out comes New Kids on the Block.

00:09:31We were living in Brooklyn, New York.

00:09:33And I remember this girl, this friend of mine, her name was Deborah, and I used to go to her

00:09:37house and watch all the VHS tapes.

00:09:42Because I didn't want anybody to know, you know, you don't watch a boy band.

00:09:46That's for girls. That's for guys.

00:09:48That's sissy stuff is what they would say.

00:09:50And I was like, I don't know what you're talking about.

00:09:51I'm like, I'm enjoying the performances. I love the songs.

00:09:55But on top of that, look at how many people are in this arena.

00:10:01Like they're performing in arenas right now at that time.

00:10:03And it's like, I would love to do something like that.

00:10:06It was groups like that. New Kids or Boyz II Men that we looked up to and showed us what

00:10:11was possible.

00:10:19New Kids on the Block is definitely the OG boy band.

00:10:22They were a worldwide phenomenon that started in the late 80s, sold over 80 million records worldwide.

00:10:29You can never be, you know, fed up with getting awards and being successful and having millions of people, you

00:10:36know, want to buy your records.

00:10:37I was a tour manager for New Kids on the Block and they, from a personality, performance level, can't be

00:10:44beat even to this day. I don't care what anybody says.

00:10:47But then when New Kids on the Block decided after four and a half years that they were burnt out.

00:10:51So they wanted to take a break.

00:10:53And that's kind of when Boyz II Men started coming out.

00:10:57Yes, there is a distinction between singer groups and boy bands, but unfortunately the experiences are very similar.

00:11:03But when I hear people having a lot to say about the group and not really understanding what we had

00:11:11to go through, I personally tell them to off.

00:11:15Because you don't know. You have no idea, nor will you ever know.

00:11:24We weren't a group that was put together. You know, music put us together. We all lived in, you know,

00:11:31four different places in Philadelphia.

00:11:34My mom had me when she was 19. My dad was 18. So, you know, they was kids.

00:11:40I met up with my dad later on when I was eight years old.

00:11:45You know, I lived in the projects. My mom wasn't in the best way at the time.

00:11:49And my grandmother took me to the trolley stop.

00:11:53She said, I'm going to show you how to do this.

00:11:55She said, get on the trolley. You sit right by the door.

00:11:59If anything happens, I need to be able to run straight off.

00:12:03The hood is the hood. You know what I'm saying?

00:12:05Somebody come on that joint and they want the money change thing.

00:12:10You know, they stick up the, they stick up the trolley.

00:12:15It was scary because I would come home and it'd be some crazy stuff.

00:12:20I'm talking about coming home and laying in my bed.

00:12:25Lift up the mattress. It's like sawed off shotguns.

00:12:28Freaking nine millimeters. And guess what I did?

00:12:32Went to sleep. You feel me?

00:12:35That's, that's what it was. So, I had to leave.

00:12:41And once I remember sitting on a bed when I just start crying, crying.

00:12:48And I was praying. I just said, I just want to be a star.

00:12:52And I kept crying it. I want to be a star. I want to be a star.

00:12:57Now the crazy thing is when you become a star.

00:13:01He didn't, you didn't tell, you didn't tell me that it comes with a lie.

00:13:09I wasn't prepared for loss.

00:13:16And that loss changed the trajectory of, of everything.

00:13:27Growing up, fame, the TV show with Leroy and Coco and all of the dancers.

00:13:34And it was just this school that was amazing.

00:13:36I'm like, really? It'd be awesome if there was a school like that, right?

00:13:40In eighth grade, high schools, they start coming to your schools to, you know, solicit you to another place.

00:13:47So, I was sitting there and another school came.

00:13:50And the next thing you know, they put their thing on the screen.

00:13:56They showed Leroy and Coco.

00:13:58And they said, you might know this school from blah, blah.

00:14:02And I was like, fame!

00:14:04You know what I'm saying? I lost my mind, you know what I mean?

00:14:06I want to go to fame!

00:14:12CAPA is an acronym for Creative and Performing Arts.

00:14:15So, if it's anything like the TV show, I need to go.

00:14:18And that's where I met the other guys in a group called Boyz II Men.

00:14:23When we first started, I was around 15.

00:14:27Nate, Mike, Mark were 16, 17.

00:14:31And Wanya was like 14.

00:14:34What people don't have to realize is we rehearsed every day for nothing.

00:14:42Nothing! We had nothing!

00:14:44We just went and sang for nothing.

00:14:49It wasn't until we graduated that we snuck backstage to a Will Smith concert.

00:14:55And that's when we met Michael Bivens.

00:14:58Michael Bivens is an artist from the group Belle Biv DeVoe.

00:15:01He was one of the original members of New Edition.

00:15:04They sang for Bivens.

00:15:06And he winds up becoming their manager.

00:15:0989 is when the group was formed.

00:15:1290 is when we got signed.

00:15:1591 we came out.

00:15:17Well, I'll tell you, these guys are hot.

00:15:19Everybody loves them, women go crazy for them, and they're all single.

00:15:22They can harmonize, good singers.

00:15:25Much talent.

00:15:25They're the best. They really are.

00:15:27Boys to men, they're the R&B kings.

00:15:29They're cool.

00:15:30That's one of the groups that we looked up to, that we strive to be like.

00:15:34I was at a performing arts school in Cincinnati, and we had an acapella group, and so we very quickly

00:15:39started to cover Boys to Men.

00:15:42There was something about the way that sounded that was on a whole other level than anything I had ever

00:15:47heard arranged or performed in my entire life.

00:15:50Michael Bivens pushed for us to get on tour.

00:15:53So we were the opening act for MC Hammer.

00:15:56Of course, we don't know what it entails, you know.

00:15:59We just said, oh goodness, we're going on tour, you know.

00:16:01This is amazing, MC Hammer, wow, you know.

00:16:04When it came time for us to actually go on tour, Michael Bivens was putting personnel together.

00:16:09And he introduced us to Khalil during the rehearsal.

00:16:13And, you know, big early guy.

00:16:15He used to wear these big gold rings with diamonds on it, this big chain.

00:16:20Khalil Roundtree was our role manager, making sure that travel is taken care of, hotels, making sure we eat.

00:16:28The role manager takes care of all of that.

00:16:31So, he was that, and then some. He was also our security.

00:16:37So, when it came time for Khalil to role-manage us, he needed help.

00:16:43So, we called his best friend.

00:16:45Well, Khalil, we grew up a block apart from each other.

00:16:47And we was in, you know, elementary school together.

00:16:51And he was a big gentleman, and I was small, and we just connected.

00:16:56Like, he was a gentle giant, and he was loyal.

00:17:01He knew what it all entailed, and he wanted us to be safe, and he protected us, hook or crook,

00:17:06through it all, no matter what.

00:17:08If we had to run, we had to run, and we had to crawl, we had to crawl, but he

00:17:11was right there with us, showing us how.

00:17:14But those things that you run from, in life, they are always going to rear their heads.

00:17:24It's May 1992, we're on a Too Legit to Quit tour, and we were in Chicago, Illinois.

00:17:31I was actually in my girlfriend's room at the Doubletree.

00:17:36She was one of MC Hammer's dancers.

00:17:39And we were kicking it, having fun.

00:17:42And I heard, like, a loud door shut.

00:17:48Shawn's girlfriend comes in the room, and she says,

00:17:54Khalil's dead.

00:17:59There was a lot of press, and a lot of news about this.

00:18:04But people don't know what we went through, or how we went through things.

00:18:09I get a phone call in my hotel room, and it was Wanye, and he was like, yo, I need

00:18:14you to come somewhere with me.

00:18:16Something happened to Khalil.

00:18:18And we went up to Khalil's room.

00:18:21We got there, it was like CSI investigators, they pulled us in the room and sat us down.

00:18:29The police officer said there was people in the hotel, they were looking for the party, because MC Hammer was

00:18:36at the hotel.

00:18:37So they were knocking on doors.

00:18:38Khalil would leave his hotel door open, just to kind of keep an ear on everything.

00:18:45Khalil's door was open, so instead of knocking, the two of them kind of, like, pushed their way in.

00:18:53And they saw him, counting the tour money.

00:18:58So, the one guy barges in, Khalil was like, he's in my room.

00:19:05He walks out, so then he's like, shit, they seen the money, he knows the guys are here, let me

00:19:10handle this.

00:19:11You know, he called Quadri.

00:19:13So he was like, these trying to get in my room.

00:19:16So he's like, yo, come, we gonna get them out the hallway, because if they gonna knock on one of

00:19:20these stupid rooms, talking about us, they gonna open the door.

00:19:24We can't hear that.

00:19:27So Khalil and Quadri grabbed him.

00:19:32So I said, man, come on, let's just take him downstairs and get rid of him.

00:19:38And one of the guys had a gun.

00:19:40Bow, bow, bow.

00:19:44I got shot.

00:19:46I felt one, two, three.

00:19:50One of the guys shot Khalil in the head.

00:19:53And they left.

00:19:59I was in the state of shock, and I come out the elevator, and I said, my friend, he's in

00:20:04the elevator, he's right there, he's dead, he's in the elevator, he's dead.

00:20:06And I couldn't stop saying it, and then I fainted.

00:20:13I've never experienced anything like that in my life, someone that close to me getting killed in such a close

00:20:23proximity.

00:20:32The guys that were banging on hotel doors, as they say, trying to find where the party was at, when

00:20:38in reality, I really think they were looking for us.

00:20:41And Khalil knew that, because that happened to us.

00:20:44We've had people sneak into our dressing rooms and stuff like that, so he really was our protector.

00:20:52He was our shield from a lot of the mess that now we're exposed to.

00:20:59So now we have to grow up, we have to become boys to men.

00:21:04Is it difficult to adjust to the fame?

00:21:08It's not difficult because we help each other out, you know?

00:21:12Boys to men, they pull out of the tour, but they're back on the same tour a week later.

00:21:17And then they're back in the recording studio working on their next hit, End of the Road.

00:21:21This is our first number one single.

00:21:22It's a natural.

00:21:24You belong to me.

00:21:26I can't let go.

00:21:29It spends 13 weeks at number one, and it becomes a massive hit.

00:21:34I'll Make Love to You, another massive hit replaces End of the Road at the top of the singles chart.

00:21:43And they keep outdoing themselves, one after the other.

00:21:47The success of boys to men paved the way for other groups to follow in their footsteps.

00:21:55However, there is a downside to that, because they could grow up to boot you out from that spot at

00:22:03the top of the charts.

00:22:07Thanks to a lot of the groups that came before us, like the boys to men's, there was a door

00:22:12that had been reopened for male groups to come in.

00:22:17We could end up doing a deal with Atlantic Records.

00:22:20And then the funny thing is, Atlantic Records didn't want to put our picture on the cover.

00:22:25Because our group All for One, there's a white guy, there's a Mexican guy, and two black guys.

00:22:30The music industry, even still to this day, is one of the most, like, segregated places still.

00:22:37We did the hit song, I Swear.

00:22:40They just start firing.

00:22:42Now, here's the crazy story about I Swear.

00:22:44A lot of the black radio stations were not able to really play I Swear.

00:22:49It was like, you know, we have these folks here saying, well, you're not R&B enough, you're not black

00:22:53enough.

00:22:53You've got a white boy and a Mexican boy in your group.

00:22:56It wasn't the fans that segregated us or didn't accept us.

00:23:02It was more the people who make business decisions.

00:23:05And it sucked. And sucks. Past and present.

00:23:11All right, so I went in my garage, and literally these are bins in my garage.

00:23:17I don't even know half the stuff that's really in here.

00:23:18So we're just going to open up and kind of look at some old, there's probably NSYNC stuff in here.

00:23:22There's a bunch of other stuff in here.

00:23:23But out of the gate, this looks like I can break in half.

00:23:26An NSYNC microphone, portable and cordless.

00:23:30All the dolls, Funko. We're vinyl pop guys.

00:23:35How many people have Barbie dolls?

00:23:37Well, this is Christine, and she's an NSYNC fan.

00:23:42If, hopefully, you know, your group does become popular, it becomes, I guess, a brand in some sort.

00:23:48Because you're not only selling yourself, per se, but you're selling the product, of course, which is the music.

00:23:53But sometimes it works the other way.

00:23:55Where the label or manager starts with the brand that they want to sell,

00:23:58and it goes out looking for the individuals to fit that brand.

00:24:02That's when you hear criticism that boy bands are, in quote, manufactured.

00:24:06And nobody knows that better than Backstreet.

00:24:22When I was a kid, we left South Florida to move to Orlando to be closer to Nickelodeon and Disney.

00:24:29Places that I could potentially work or get jobs.

00:24:32Where did you get it?

00:24:33From this guy.

00:24:34Hi, honey, I'm home.

00:24:35It's a show on Nickelodeon that ended up actually getting picked up by ABC briefly.

00:24:41That was a lot of fun.

00:24:42It wasn't until this thing called the Blue Sheet was coming around in the mail.

00:24:47And it was basically like the classifieds for all the local entertainment.

00:24:50And on the final page, on the top of it said, local entrepreneur looking to put together a vocal group

00:24:58a la New Kids on the Block meets Boyz II Men.

00:25:02And I looked at my mom, I was like, what do you think?

00:25:08Lou Perlman held auditions for the Backstreet Boys.

00:25:11And people came out and auditioned for it.

00:25:14I was the first one to meet Lou.

00:25:18Went to his house, sang for him, and he signed me on the spot.

00:25:23And that was it.

00:25:23So IMV, the OG.

00:25:26I helped literally put the band together.

00:25:28At that point in time, I had a lot of friends saying to me, hey, this guy who owns all

00:25:33these blimps, he wants to meet you.

00:25:35And I'm like, who is he?

00:25:37His name was Lou Perlman.

00:25:39I don't know.

00:25:39He's a rich guy.

00:25:40He owns the blimps.

00:25:41He drives around on Rolls Royce.

00:25:43So I decided to go meet him at an Italian restaurant.

00:25:47So when I walk in, I go into this private room, and there's this huge table set up for about

00:25:5214 people.

00:25:53And the only person at the table was Lou.

00:25:55So it was some godfather moment, right?

00:25:58And then these five guys come in.

00:25:59Five boys.

00:26:01Kevin, Ryan, Nick, AJ, and Howie.

00:26:04So I was like, what's going on with this?

00:26:06So anyways, these five guys come in singing, and they're singing acapella.

00:26:10The hair on my arm stood up.

00:26:12Because their harmonies were perfection.

00:26:16And I remember looking across the table at Johnny and going, ching, ching.

00:26:20It's called the Backstreet Boys, brand new group.

00:26:22What is your name?

00:26:23I'm AJ McLean.

00:26:24Oh, god.

00:26:25That was our very first TV performance ever.

00:26:30The local news in Orlando.

00:26:33AJ was 14.

00:26:34He was the bad boy.

00:26:35And who are you?

00:26:36Howie D.

00:26:36Howie?

00:26:37Howie was the sweet friend.

00:26:38I'm from Lexington, Kentucky.

00:26:40My name's Brian Littrell.

00:26:41Brian was the all-American.

00:26:42I'm Kevin Richardson.

00:26:43Kevin and Brian were related.

00:26:46Kevin Richardson, kind of like the more mature daddy of the group.

00:26:51He was only 22 at the time, so that sounds weird.

00:26:55But now all the fans say that Kevin has daddy vibes.

00:26:58And Nick was the baby.

00:26:59Nick was 12 when I started working with him.

00:27:02I'm from Tampa, Florida, and I'm Nick Carter.

00:27:0412.

00:27:05Nick and AJ.

00:27:06They were the young ones.

00:27:08We're in the process of making an album right now.

00:27:09I mean, I was excited because one of the many reasons, again, back to the beginning why I got picked

00:27:14on.

00:27:15Because I didn't really have any guy friends.

00:27:17All my friends were girls.

00:27:20How you doing?

00:27:21Lou Pearlman was a peculiar entrepreneur.

00:27:26He created this transportation company where he would charter blimps.

00:27:30It's not like this is a common thing for a blimp entrepreneur to just enter the music industry and start

00:27:37a boy band.

00:27:38This doesn't happen.

00:27:40But you do need a lot of business acumen to create a successful musical act.

00:27:46I always say there's a million artists here.

00:27:49These guys have the right marketing promotion and make it.

00:27:52Because they have the machine around them that helps get them to that.

00:27:56With the Backstreet Boys, Lou funded the label.

00:27:59Transcon Records.

00:28:01Lou built a studio so they could record in there.

00:28:04It was Lou's money.

00:28:06The business side of things is very important.

00:28:10Lou Pearlman's company, Transcon Records, was developing the Backstreet Boys to make them attractive to a record label by acting

00:28:17like a manager or producer.

00:28:19Lou hires Johnny Wright as another manager to train them and book gigs.

00:28:24Lou enlists vocal coaches, music producers, and choreographers to create demos and music videos.

00:28:29There was an entire machine to break Backstreet Boys into the industry.

00:28:34And oftentimes these are things that an artist cannot afford on their own.

00:28:39So they rely on someone like Lou Pearlman to pay for things in the early stages that they will then

00:28:46pay them back for later on.

00:28:49The early days of Backstreet Boys, they got like a stipend every week.

00:28:53And then Lou put them all in a house together.

00:29:01It was a beautiful mansion.

00:29:03He had a covered pool.

00:29:06He had the house.

00:29:08He had the limousines.

00:29:10He had the planes.

00:29:13Fourteen-year-old, you're in this house with this guy who's got a gaggle of money.

00:29:18I'll never forget he had a Mexican Coke vending machine, glass bottle.

00:29:23It was the best shit in the world.

00:29:25And he's got like C-3PO statue and Darth Vader and a screen that comes out of the ceiling to

00:29:31watch movies.

00:29:32And you're like, this guy's cool.

00:29:33Well, he's like Tony Stark, except minus the tech.

00:29:36Definitely not as good looking as Tony Stark, let's just say that.

00:29:39He was like five Tony Starks in one.

00:29:41He gave gifts.

00:29:43He took them out to dinners.

00:29:44He was the one that funded everything.

00:29:46He drove them around in the limos.

00:29:48I never liked Lou Pearlman.

00:29:50Ever.

00:29:51And I had a vibe about him that I just didn't trust.

00:29:56You know, how you doing?

00:29:58Let's go get a steak.

00:29:59Always had pretty people around him.

00:30:03You had this guy who took three and a half million dollars, which he could have put in stock market,

00:30:09could have bought a piece of property and flipped it.

00:30:11He could have done other things that were more secure than putting it into your music career.

00:30:17It makes you start to second guess.

00:30:20Nobody really stopped to think, why?

00:30:29If you're coming from a household where a father isn't present and you have a guy who hanging out with

00:30:35you,

00:30:36helping you and putting money in your pocket, you kind of gravitate to that person.

00:30:41This is what we call Mr. Big Papa.

00:30:43Big Papa Lou.

00:30:44Big Papa.

00:30:45That was the nickname they gave him.

00:30:47Big Papa.

00:30:48Big Papa.

00:30:49Big Papa.

00:30:50I mean, it was just like parental figure slash like best friend kind of relationship for me.

00:30:59I grew up being raised by my mom and my grandparents.

00:31:03When I was two, my parents divorced.

00:31:06So after my parents split up, my dad picked me up when I was about eight to go see my

00:31:12nana, which was his mom for her birthday.

00:31:15And that was the last time I saw him until I was 17.

00:31:19In that moment, in that time, some of the boys looked up to Lou.

00:31:24Kevin had lost his father.

00:31:26Unfortunately, before we started Backstreet Boys, passed away when he was 19 from cancer.

00:31:33He immediately kind of had that relationship with Lou, where he did look up to him like a father figure.

00:31:42Then there was a problem.

00:31:44We thought this record, we got it going on, was going to be a smash.

00:31:48It's a single that we tried to promote in the U.S. and nobody wanted to play it.

00:31:52Music had gone more rock and grunge.

00:31:55So there was no room for a boy band.

00:31:57Like, everybody poo-pooed on it.

00:31:59Let me tell you, let me give you the tea.

00:32:02At that point, we're feeling, you know, somewhat accomplished.

00:32:06We've won a Grammy.

00:32:07We've won an American Music Award.

00:32:08We've been touring the world.

00:32:10You know, we've been releasing songs and having success.

00:32:14Guys, one more shot.

00:32:15And one day, we got this young group called the Backstreet Boys.

00:32:18They went to see what a tour bus looked like.

00:32:20We invited them on our tour bus in Orlando.

00:32:22We're talking to them and trying to give them advice, you know, and they were really cool kids then.

00:32:27And, like, there is no competitions.

00:32:29Because at the end of the day, the thing that matters first and foremost is hit records.

00:32:36Because there's a lot of talented people and you can sing their faces off.

00:32:40What's the difference between them and us?

00:32:41Hit records, right?

00:32:47Nobody wanted to play the Backstreet Boys in the United States.

00:32:50So, me being involved with other bands who played all over Europe and the world,

00:32:55and keeping my Rolodex of different people that I met along the way,

00:32:59we had booked the Backstreet Boys to play in Germany.

00:33:03I'll never make you cry.

00:33:07I'll never die.

00:33:09Thank you, thank you, thank you.

00:33:09And it went out.

00:33:12You, I'll give you all the...

00:33:14One more time.

00:33:15Come on.

00:33:15You could see the girls in the audience's mouth drop.

00:33:18And the place went crazy.

00:33:25And even without social media, just the spread of word of mouth,

00:33:29like these guys from America or something.

00:33:31And then that's when it kicked off for us.

00:33:33Love you Backstreet Boys!

00:33:35Their single went to number one in like eight weeks.

00:33:39And then it was on.

00:33:40I think they're really great.

00:33:41They can sing and they look good.

00:33:44First of all, it is an amazing thing.

00:33:46To have the ability to bring so much joy and happiness to people

00:33:50you may never know on a personal level,

00:33:53around the world, through music, through performance, is a blessing.

00:33:59They did all the TV shows.

00:34:01Hello.

00:34:02We're the Backstreet Boys.

00:34:03Nick, you are the biggest womanizer.

00:34:06But now I heard...

00:34:08Every girl was screaming like,

00:34:10Nick, Nick, Nick!

00:34:11We were playing 30,000 seat stadiums.

00:34:14So now they're blowing up.

00:34:16And now our record label is saying,

00:34:18oh, y'all need to be like them.

00:34:22So I'm like, well, we were out before they were.

00:34:24And why can't there be enough room and space for them to be them?

00:34:29They have their lane and they're killing it in their lane.

00:34:31And we have our lane and the fan base.

00:34:33And we're killing it in our lane.

00:34:37I think it makes you question your talent.

00:34:40Because it's like, you must think that I'm not good enough to be me

00:34:44if you're telling me I need to be him.

00:34:51My name is Jeff Timmons.

00:34:53I am the founding member of a group called 98 Degrees.

00:34:56Our path was dramatically different than Backstreet and Boyz II Men's path.

00:35:00And all for one.

00:35:02I mean, we would have much preferred to have this monster behemoth label push behind us.

00:35:07But we didn't have it.

00:35:08We were four kids from Ohio.

00:35:10We moved to North Hollywood the summer of 95.

00:35:13And really for us, it was all about all those old school ways of just trying to get out there.

00:35:19We had a motor home wrapped with our picture.

00:35:22And we would do a show.

00:35:24And I would drive for six hours to the next city.

00:35:27We'd go to Kinko's.

00:35:28We'd print out our flyers.

00:35:30Going up and down the beach, just handing out flyers to girls on the beach.

00:35:33Like, all right, how else are we going to get noticed?

00:35:34We literally put the hat down and you sing for money and for food.

00:35:39Show up on a street corner.

00:35:40Just sing.

00:35:41We go to Taco Bell.

00:35:42Sing.

00:35:43We go to Fatburger.

00:35:44Sing.

00:35:44Can we get a free burger?

00:35:45We scrapped and clawed our way to stay afloat.

00:35:48And then we thought, eventually, we're going to meet someone in L.A.

00:35:52Who's going to know somebody, who's going to know somebody.

00:35:54And this is going to get us somewhere.

00:36:00I had a friend who was a performer in Germany.

00:36:05And she's like, there's this group over here that's just blowing up called the Backstreet Boys.

00:36:09And they had not yet broken here in the U.S.

00:36:11Similar group.

00:36:13Much more polished.

00:36:14And I remember us going, this is where we're going.

00:36:16If we stick with it, we're going to get more of this.

00:36:18Now we just got to practice and now we just need the opportunity.

00:36:241995.

00:36:25We had the single with Mariah, One Sweet Day.

00:36:31It was sweeping.

00:36:33It was emotional.

00:36:34It tugged at your heartstrings.

00:36:37You had these two juggernaut musical acts teaming up.

00:36:41I mean, it was magic.

00:36:43We were nominated for six Grammys.

00:36:47And Mariah was so sure.

00:36:50And we did not win one.

00:36:55We took a year off.

00:36:56It's just tired, bro.

00:36:58We were at each other's throats.

00:36:59We canceled the European tour.

00:37:03And we came home, bro.

00:37:06And nobody was feeling us.

00:37:08Like, people were done with us.

00:37:11And with our era of music.

00:37:15And it shifted to the boy bands.

00:37:19And they look nothing like us.

00:37:22Motown Records, our label in particular, made it painfully obvious that they were done.

00:37:27They were done with us.

00:37:28And the pendulum has shifted.

00:37:31That's right.

00:37:31This song right here.

00:37:32There is more choice because we want to make tribute to Motown.

00:37:35We signed to Motown Records.

00:37:37And for those of you who don't know, it's a legendary record label that has such great artists.

00:37:42Like CD Wonder, Marvin Gaye, The Four Tops, The Temptations.

00:37:47And right now, it's got great artists like Boyz II Men.

00:37:51Anybody like Boyz II Men?

00:37:54I'd be lying if I didn't say, come on, this is insane.

00:37:58They were the first white band on a black label.

00:38:02They'd give us this song called Invisible Man.

00:38:04And it turns out it was submitted for Boyz II Men by a couple of writers in Vancouver, Canada.

00:38:09And the president of Motown heard it and he said, no, I don't want this for Boyz II Men.

00:38:13I want 90 Degrees to take this record.

00:38:15This song is called Invisible Man.

00:38:17It's textbook.

00:38:19Do black music with white faces.

00:38:24Pat Boone, The Osmonds, Elvis.

00:38:28They were all doing black music.

00:38:30That is the truth. Like, and it's a hard truth.

00:38:32It's no diss to 90 Degrees, NSYNC, Backstreet, any of those guys.

00:38:36Like, they were just kids trying to make it too.

00:38:41I hate to say it, just crass.

00:38:45But to the average white girl fan,

00:38:51the black groups, oh, I'd him.

00:38:56But the white groups, oh, I'd marry him.

00:39:01Justin Timberlake on my wall, it's more acceptable opposed to a couple of black guys.

00:39:07I can marry Justin. I can bring him to my house.

00:39:10He can have dinner with my family.

00:39:13It's a little harder to bring black ass Sean to rural Arkansas.

00:39:23It's a cutthroat business.

00:39:25They want the next hottest, biggest thing, or the next new act.

00:39:29They don't give two shits sometimes, record companies.

00:39:31And if they could be that cold-blooded to the biggest music sensation at the time,

00:39:35imagine the power they had over the new artist.

00:39:42The president of Motown, he wanted us to be the white Jodeci.

00:39:47So he was trying to give us that in a crash course.

00:39:50Hey, I want you guys to go to black churches in Harlem on Sundays.

00:39:53Let's dress these guys in Fugu and Fat Farm.

00:39:56I remember going on a train to Rochester, New York to work with Devontae from Jodeci.

00:40:02And we show up and Devontae is being fitted for a bulletproof vest in the studio.

00:40:08And I'm looking around, I'm like, do we need a bulletproof vest?

00:40:12What did we just walk into?

00:40:14It does make you question, well, why did you sign us if you didn't want us to be who we

00:40:18are?

00:40:18You're trying to make us into something else.

00:40:21You got to remember, we're a new act.

00:40:23We're not making any money.

00:40:25We don't know what the plan is.

00:40:27And this is our shot.

00:40:28We'll try it. We'll try this.

00:40:30We'll go hang out at Bowery Bar with Russell.

00:40:32We'll do all these things.

00:40:33We'll do whatever we have to do.

00:40:36You go home, you're like, what am I? Who am I?

00:40:38It starts to really mess with you mentally.

00:40:43And for me, it causes severe depression.

00:40:46But I felt like I was the weakest link in the group.

00:40:50Just didn't feel good about myself.

00:40:52Didn't feel good physically.

00:40:53I could not sleep.

00:40:53And my head wasn't right.

00:40:56I felt so worthless.

00:40:58And just the fact that I could not handle all this pressure, that I was like, just end it.

00:41:06And I don't know, for whatever reason, I just thought, no, screw that.

00:41:10Like, just push one more time.

00:41:13Like, just try this last thing.

00:41:15I went to our manager and I said, I need some help.

00:41:17If I don't get some sort of help, I will not be here.

00:41:20Like, this is over.

00:41:21And I mean seriously.

00:41:23So he found a psychiatrist for me to go to.

00:41:25He put me on this Atkins diet, put me on some medication.

00:41:28Within three months, I was, I felt better than ever.

00:41:31And it didn't make this any easier.

00:41:35But at least I felt better.

00:41:37And then I didn't want to die.

00:41:39You know?

00:41:40So.

00:41:41Thanks for sharing that.

00:41:43At the time, I kept hearing rumblings from the same people who had told me about Lou when I had

00:41:50my first meeting, that Lou had another boy band.

00:41:56And every time I would call Lou, I'd say, what's this I'm hearing about?

00:41:59No, I don't have another boy band.

00:42:00No, I don't have another.

00:42:01I don't know what you're talking about.

00:42:02People are lying.

00:42:03There's another boy band out there, but I have nothing to do with them.

00:42:12All right, so I got some of my wards and stuff.

00:42:14I have a storage unit full of stuff.

00:42:17And it's, I would love to have everything out in display if I could.

00:42:21I really would.

00:42:22Because it does mean a lot to me.

00:42:23It's, it's my life.

00:42:24It's, it's a lot of my career.

00:42:25It's all of my career, what I really started doing.

00:42:28This is what really started it all.

00:42:33Disney wanted to make Orlando Hollywood East at one point.

00:42:36You had all the theme parks that at that time had dancers, singers, all levels of performers.

00:42:44Back in the day, I was doing a Beetlejuice show at Universal.

00:42:47And I was in a group with this kid named Jason and two other friends of mine.

00:42:52And then I run into Chris, who actually worked at Universal.

00:42:57There's always speculations of how the group got together.

00:43:01People are going to say so many different things.

00:43:03But I will say, Lou told Chris, basically, I don't want to do an audition.

00:43:08Go out and find.

00:43:09And Chris did.

00:43:11Chris brought the guys together.

00:43:13Lou Perlman financially helped that.

00:43:16And Lynn Harless, which is Justin's mom, came up with the name NSYNC.

00:43:21Lynn was like, oh, y'all names?

00:43:23Last letter of your first name spells NSYNC.

00:43:25And you're like, what do you mean?

00:43:26It's like, well, you got N for Justin.

00:43:29You have S for Chris, C-H-R-I-S.

00:43:32So there's N-S-Y.

00:43:34You got Joey for the Y.

00:43:36So N-S-Y-N, which was Jason for the other N.

00:43:40And then JC for the C.

00:43:41So that was NSYNC.

00:43:43You're a funny guy.

00:43:44When we started, we were definitely boys.

00:43:47I mean, you had Justin, who was 14.

00:43:48And you had Chris, who was 23, 24 at the time.

00:43:51So it's a 10-year gap pretty much between them.

00:43:54Wow.

00:43:59So the five of us got together.

00:44:01We sang. Everything was great.

00:44:02We're going to sign with Transcontinental,

00:44:03which was Lou Perlman's independent record label.

00:44:06And all of a sudden, we go to sign.

00:44:08And Jason doesn't show up.

00:44:10And we're like, what happened?

00:44:19Jason, that's the guy that quit NSYNC.

00:44:24He was a good friend of mine.

00:44:25And his dad was my chorus teacher in high school.

00:44:29What I want to do is sit with Jason and have a conversation.

00:44:32And to hear his side of it.

00:44:35What's up?

00:44:36What's up?

00:44:37What up, dog?

00:44:38What up, dog?

00:44:40What up, dog?

00:44:40What's up, man?

00:44:42What's up, man?

00:44:43What's up, man?

00:44:43Thanks for doing this whole documentary.

00:44:45That's why I have you.

00:44:45So obviously, people don't know.

00:44:47It's almost like, you know, the fifth Beatle or whatever the f*** in that sense.

00:44:50But it's more or less, for us, it's getting the story across that no one's ever really heard before.

00:44:58So the full story with NSYNC, I had no idea what was going to happen.

00:45:04And also, I was a stupid kid.

00:45:06I've never seen a music contract before.

00:45:08So I was smart enough back then to take the contracts to lawyers to review them.

00:45:15And it's like, whoa, whoa, whoa.

00:45:18What, Lou's a member of the band now?

00:45:22For both the Backstreet Boys and NSYNC, there was a contract.

00:45:26And the way Lou always structured the companies was he was the 51% owner.

00:45:32But he was also one sixth member of the Backstreet Boys and NSYNC.

00:45:38So he got a sixth of their side of the 49.

00:45:42All I can say is I'm so proud of these guys.

00:45:45There's a paragraph where it said, if they do an outside business

00:45:49while they're a member of the Backstreet Boys, management was still entitled to a commission.

00:45:54And Brian said, so you mean if I go and get a hot dog stand while I'm in this group,

00:45:59you guys get a piece of that?

00:46:01And we're like, yeah, because anything you're using your name for that we're helping you promote,

00:46:05that's going to bring goodwill into another business, we should get paid for it.

00:46:09The music industry is one of the very few industries where you don't have to go to school for it,

00:46:15yet you're thrown in it and record contracts.

00:46:19You've never seen any of this words salad in your life.

00:46:26And all of this you learn on the fly.

00:46:28I believe 90% of the artists will sign a horrible record deal just to have one.

00:46:34Unfortunately, this one was real bad.

00:46:37These guys were teenagers, barely even teenagers, 12 years old, 14 years old.

00:46:43For Backstreet Boys, nobody really stopped to think,

00:46:47you boys probably shouldn't sign this until somebody gets a lawyer for us.

00:46:51So we did. Or thought I did.

00:46:56Unbeknownst to me, the attorney that they got was a suggestion from Lou.

00:47:01The only attorney that was in the room when we signed it was his attorney.

00:47:05None of us got attorneys.

00:47:14I've often thought, what if one of our parents did decide to get a lawyer?

00:47:20The lawyer was there, read the contract, and saw that.

00:47:23Would Lou have dropped us on the spot?

00:47:25Or would he have changed the contract?

00:47:31I think he would have dropped us.

00:47:32I mean, I found five people. I can find another five people.

00:47:36Exactly. And he did.

00:47:38Bye-bye, everyone.

00:47:40As far as NSYNC is concerned, Lou sat down with us and said,

00:47:43Hey, you know what? I'd love to do this A, B, C, and D.

00:47:46And I know that I'm going to look out for your best interest.

00:47:49Remember what I'm saying that?

00:47:49If I become a sixth member with you guys, that means we all split it.

00:47:53We'll all share it.

00:47:54But I'm going to look out for your best interest.

00:47:55I'm like, I split five, six ways.

00:47:58That seems pretty reasonable since thinking that's the only thing he's getting.

00:48:02Now look, obviously you want to make a decision that's using your best judgment.

00:48:07But when you're out there grinding and you have no money

00:48:11and you're in a competitive landscape

00:48:12and in a business that's a dream to actually achieve

00:48:15and the fact that someone handed me a piece of paper making it official,

00:48:19you're going to justify in your brain that it's something that's legit.

00:48:24So we signed a deal, the four of us.

00:48:28At that juncture with NSYNC, it didn't feel right.

00:48:33So I didn't do it.

00:48:37JC was pissed.

00:48:38He called me like, what are you doing?

00:48:40What are you doing?

00:48:41And I don't blame him.

00:48:43I kind of left him high and dry.

00:48:44So I get it.

00:48:45I'd be pissed at me too.

00:48:49After NSYNC, I went back to college, got my degree.

00:48:52And then a buddy of mine I went to school with, he was in the mortgage business

00:48:56and I've been doing that ever since.

00:49:04You're always going to be, you know, have your what if moments.

00:49:07You know, it's just human nature.

00:49:08You're going to think about that and have to have those what if moments.

00:49:20I don't know, I don't know.

00:49:28So that was just the four of us.

00:49:29And we were pretty bent out of shape because we were, we were on the verge of doing stuff.

00:49:34So then we tried to find a bass singer.

00:49:40Well, I grew up in a little town called Ellisville, Mississippi.

00:49:44It was a town of 2,000 people, very small country town, a place you didn't lock your doors.

00:49:49You knew every single person in town.

00:49:53You know, you didn't go home until the street lights came on.

00:49:55That was your sign and very conservative.

00:49:58I was in church three times a week.

00:50:00It was all about family.

00:50:02It was all about religion.

00:50:03I was always in choir singing in church.

00:50:07So you never really had a dream that I could be an entertainer.

00:50:11When I was 16, I had a girlfriend at the time.

00:50:14It was getting ready for my homecoming parade.

00:50:18I got home from helping build the float.

00:50:21And my mom was on the phone with Lou Pearlman and Justin Timberlake and his mom, Lynn.

00:50:27They'd found me through my coach for another show car that I was in.

00:50:30And they're putting this band together and see if you want to be the bass singer.

00:50:34Think about how random that is though.

00:50:36Somebody randomly calls you out of Mississippi to say,

00:50:38Hey, these four guys want to audition you in a group.

00:50:40Hey, tell your mom to come to Florida.

00:50:42We'll fly them out.

00:50:43My mom was like, no, I'm not interested and hung up.

00:50:45And that was it.

00:50:47The second time that they called, somehow my mom thought it was okay for us to fly to Orlando and

00:50:54just meet the guys.

00:50:56I was so nervous.

00:50:57These guys were insanely talented.

00:51:04I definitely felt like, you know, imposter syndrome for sure.

00:51:08And the 16 year old kids never left their town.

00:51:10All of a sudden pretending they're a great singer, pretending they're a great dancer.

00:51:14I just felt like I was pretending the whole time.

00:51:16Which suited me because I was pretending to be a lot of things at the time.

00:51:22Some of my first memories were knowing that I was different.

00:51:26In kindergarten, I remember having like a little crush on the boy instead of the girl.

00:51:31And I knew at that time that that was not right.

00:51:34You just knew it from what, you know, people say in the churches, all the jokes made about gay people.

00:51:39So at an early age, you knew that those feelings had to be suppressed.

00:51:46So I hid that part of myself.

00:51:50And the older I got, I did not like myself.

00:51:54It just felt lonely.

00:51:56It felt very lonely.

00:51:57I felt like I was on an island because I couldn't talk to anyone.

00:52:00I felt broke when I joined NSYNC.

00:52:04It was always alluded that your private life always needed to be hidden.

00:52:08If we were to come out as gay, if to come out even having a girlfriend,

00:52:13that it would really hurt our career.

00:52:16That that needed to be hidden.

00:52:18And so that always translated to me.

00:52:21It was like, never come out. Never come out.

00:52:26This one little thing just destroys all of that.

00:52:55I started in the entertainment business back in the 90s.

00:52:58And I started with the boy band Craze in Orlando, Florida.

00:53:02For NSYNC, I started as their personal assistant.

00:53:05I didn't work for Lou and I didn't work for Johnny.

00:53:07I worked for the five guys directly.

00:53:10The first time I ever saw them perform, I said, get rid of that kid.

00:53:13He was a good dancer, but...

00:53:16It was very nasally.

00:53:18And it was Justin.

00:53:19I'm rolling down the street and the music is bumping.

00:53:22I really said that.

00:53:23Boy, I was wrong.

00:53:25Boy, I was wrong.

00:53:28I realized that Lance was gay.

00:53:30We were on the bus.

00:53:31And I was making a peanut butter and jelly sandwich.

00:53:34And he goes, what are you doing?

00:53:35He goes, no, no, no, no, no.

00:53:36He grabbed the styrofoam cup and he grabbed the peanut butter

00:53:38and put it in the styrofoam cup.

00:53:39And then he grabbed jelly.

00:53:40You can't just do peanut butter and jelly.

00:53:43You have to mix it together.

00:53:44It's a different consistency.

00:53:45It's a different flavor.

00:53:47Try it.

00:53:48I'm telling you.

00:53:49He goes, try mine.

00:53:50And I try his.

00:53:51I'm like, huh.

00:53:52I go, Lance, are you kidding me, dude?

00:53:54This is the greatest thing I've ever tasted.

00:53:56This is unbelievable.

00:53:57He goes, yeah, Joe.

00:53:59I told you.

00:53:59I said, but also, this is the gayest thing I've ever done.

00:54:02And he looked at me and his whole face turned red.

00:54:04And he ran off the bus.

00:54:08There was a lot of times where if people said trigger words,

00:54:11I probably would freeze up.

00:54:12And you would just kind of like Homer Simpson back into the bushes.

00:54:16You're like, I'm just going to disappear right now.

00:54:20In the group, it was really interesting

00:54:21because I was the first one to find out.

00:54:24We go out one night.

00:54:25We all go back to Lance's house.

00:54:26I pass out in one of his guest bedrooms.

00:54:28I wake up at like 3 o'clock in the morning.

00:54:30I'm like, oh, I got to leave.

00:54:32I go to his bedroom.

00:54:33I open up the door.

00:54:33There's nobody in there.

00:54:34Then I go to his office and I open up the door.

00:54:36And he's sitting there and there's a guy straddle on top of him.

00:54:41I was at my computer and my boyfriend at the time,

00:54:45my very, very first boyfriend was sitting on my lap.

00:54:48Not naked, but there's straddle on top.

00:54:51And I was like, got quiet.

00:54:54And he was like, oh, sorry.

00:54:55I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, no.

00:54:56Come in, come in.

00:54:56I was like, surprise.

00:54:58Bro, I said, honestly, your mom's going to kill you.

00:55:01That's all I said to him.

00:55:03And he's like, oh, please.

00:55:03I don't care.

00:55:04I'm like, okay.

00:55:05And I knew he wouldn't care, but it was just so nice to hear those words.

00:55:09And finally, one of the members of your group know and be like, I don't care.

00:55:14He goes, just don't tell anybody.

00:55:15I don't want to tell anybody yet.

00:55:17It's not right.

00:55:17I go, Lance, I love you.

00:55:19I said, you're my brother.

00:55:21You let me know when it's right for you to tell.

00:55:23I'm not saying nothing to the guys because I found out by accident.

00:55:28We were such a family for so many reasons.

00:55:31You know, being fish out of water in this weird situation, it bonds you because you're

00:55:37stuck with each other.

00:55:38Then on top of that, we were the redheaded stepchild.

00:55:42JC.

00:55:46It was kind of like the secret little thing we had with Lou Perlman because of the boys,

00:55:51the Backstreet Boys.

00:55:51You know, they couldn't know about us.

00:55:56I worked for Lou, driving his limo, filling his fridge.

00:56:01And I definitely remember being in his office.

00:56:06You know, Backstreet Boys were hitting.

00:56:08And they had started in sync without Backstreet Boys knowing.

00:56:12And then brought Johnny right in to manage them.

00:56:15And I remember being in a meeting with Lou and Johnny.

00:56:17Like, they're talking about how are we going to navigate this.

00:56:20It was pretty intense at that time.

00:56:24For NSYNC, we gave them the same producers, the same writers, took them to Germany.

00:56:28So that was where our strategy was with those two.

00:56:31Hello.

00:56:32Hello.

00:56:33But Lou didn't want the Backstreet Boys to know that he was creating a new band.

00:56:37And I was now going to manage NSYNC.

00:56:40But one day, I fly to Utah to see the Backstreet Boys and be about the video shoot.

00:56:45And Kevin and Brian come into my room and they go, why did you lie to us?

00:56:50And it was very uncomfortable.

00:56:52Definitely in their mind as a betrayal.

00:56:56We all got the wool pulled over our eyes, as the entire world knows.

00:56:59That was the one biggest question we had.

00:57:02Just, why did you do this?

00:57:04Why couldn't you just be happy with us and the way things were?

00:57:11There was a little bit of, oh, should I do this?

00:57:15Because you don't want one group mad that we have another group just the same.

00:57:20They felt we were greedy.

00:57:23I'll say, I'm guilty.

00:57:25But then when you sit at the other side, why should I let someone else get an NSYNC and do

00:57:32the same thing?

00:57:33If you're going to have competition, let it be by two acts that I represent,

00:57:38so that I know how to manage the movement so neither one of you are hurt by it.

00:57:44Lou always equated it to this.

00:57:46You have Burger King and McDonald's.

00:57:49And in some cities, Burger King sits right next to McDonald's.

00:57:53People have a choice, but they both survived, so you guys can survive.

00:57:56And I said, I'll make that promise to you that you guys will have your lane, they'll have theirs.

00:58:01And that's the word that I kept until we had booked the Backstreet Boys to play the Disney concert series.

00:58:10It was like almost two years that we were busting our asses to get to nowhere for a while.

00:58:14We did the grind.

00:58:15You know, we did the small little bars and clubs everywhere.

00:58:18And it kept us growing and getting better.

00:58:21And I remember one time NSYNC was opening for us and they came out and did, I want you back.

00:58:27And it was all, you know, all the choreography was happening.

00:58:29I'm just sitting there like, holy shit, we are .

00:58:32It was like, they're never opening for us ever again.

00:58:35This is the first and last time that they will ever open for us.

00:58:40NSYNC was very together in their choreography.

00:58:42I saw boys that were working hard to get their dream.

00:58:45But they needed a break.

00:58:47It should become popular.

00:58:48Disney wanted to put on a concert in their parks.

00:58:51And we saw that the offers were for Backstreet and Johnny went to the boys and they didn't want to

00:58:55do it.

00:58:56They just felt, why the hell are we doing Disney when we're on the front cover of Rolling Stone?

00:59:00We'll just go ahead and show you why you should.

00:59:04Johnny Wright managed both groups.

00:59:06NSYNC was so polished and ready, they slipped in.

00:59:09This is the first concert we did for NSYNC.

00:59:19Thanks Backstreet Boys.

00:59:24That break that they got at Disney was well deserved because they were so good.

00:59:28And then boom.

00:59:33And that catapulted them to the top.

00:59:40NSYNC was like covering at 66 with the album.

00:59:44Then the Backstreet Boys album was sitting at number four.

00:59:48And all of a sudden the NSYNC album jumped it and went to number two.

00:59:54Nobody was bigger than them at that time.

00:59:56But there is a side that's not so glamorous.

01:00:02And that goes from the fans, from the actual principals and artists, from the crew.

01:00:08You get threats.

01:00:10A 17-year-old teenager planned to steal guns to kill five musicians at an arena.

01:00:15All because of NSYNC's popularity with girls.

01:00:19One day we found out there was a bomb threat while we were out on tour.

01:00:22The management of the band are taking this threat very seriously.

01:00:26We love NSYNC.

01:00:29I think it's the best.

01:00:32There was a girl that pulled a gun once.

01:00:35If I didn't let her meet somebody, she waved a gun and then she ran away.

01:00:41My behavior changed after that.

01:00:44You become more aware.

01:00:46You realize that at any moment something could happen.

01:00:51You'll see a Bieber cancel a tour.

01:00:54Or you'll see a Shawn Mendes cancel a tour.

01:00:56Because my mental health needs to come first.

01:00:58That was not an option when we were out there.

01:01:02You went out there and you did the show.

01:01:04And you came back after the show and you broke down and you cried and you kicked a hole in

01:01:08a wall.

01:01:09Or you did whatever you had to do.

01:01:11But you didn't bow out.

01:01:12You worked so hard to get there.

01:01:13You can't let your foot off the gas.

01:01:16This is going to sound super shady.

01:01:18But like when we first went out, I remember on our first tour.

01:01:20Someone at the label gave us a book.

01:01:22And it was the age of consent in every state in the country.

01:01:25And like we kept that book on the tour bus.

01:01:28They're hot. They're gorgeous.

01:01:29We want to see them.

01:01:32Unfortunately, there were people out there looking to tear you down.

01:01:37Dick, will you marry me, please?

01:01:39There won't be none of that.

01:01:40It's hard to not have a squeaky clean image when you're kind of a teen heartthrob band or group, right?

01:01:48I don't think there's anything wrong with a squeaky clean image.

01:01:51I mean, we're just trying to make our moms and our dads and our families proud.

01:01:55In that moment in that time, I don't know my dad.

01:01:59At all.

01:02:00Most people don't know this.

01:02:02I was about 17, something like that.

01:02:05Now at that point, I'm already in the band for three years.

01:02:12My girlfriend at the time drove me to this random house in the middle of nowhere, 30 minutes from where

01:02:17I was living.

01:02:19We got out.

01:02:20She banged on the door and she dipped and just left me there.

01:02:25I was pissed.

01:02:27And this guy opens the door and I'm like, I am so sorry to bother you.

01:02:33And he looked at me and I looked at him and it was like, oh shit, wait.

01:02:37And he's like, Alex?

01:02:38And I was like, dad?

01:02:47It was a weird, surreal moment.

01:02:50I went in.

01:02:51We talked for a little bit.

01:02:52It was my first time meeting my stepmom.

01:02:55He had news articles about Backstreet Boys, clippings, all these things.

01:03:00And I looked at that like, okay, that's kind of cool.

01:03:04That he's keeping up with my career even though we're not speaking.

01:03:10And then we exchanged numbers and we had talked about going to have lunch.

01:03:18But I got busy.

01:03:20Too many tours, too many albums.

01:03:22Wasn't able to do it.

01:03:23So after that, I didn't see him or speak to him for another probably 10 years.

01:03:33Backstreet Boys, those were my boys.

01:03:38I just thought they were so effortlessly cool.

01:03:42But I had no idea what the Backstreet Boys were going through when I was listening to their music.

01:03:51And that's by design because if you were to let the fans in on everything that's happening behind the scenes,

01:03:58the whole illusion would start to fall apart.

01:04:07The fact that NSYNC was actually becoming more and more successful.

01:04:11That's when I got the call from Backstreet Boys.

01:04:13We need to have a meeting.

01:04:15And they're like, there's three conditions for you to stay our manager.

01:04:18One, you have to get rid of Lou.

01:04:22You have to cut your management commission in half.

01:04:25And you have to get rid of NSYNC.

01:04:28So I said, that's an offer I can refuse.

01:04:31And that's when I told them, okay, if I'm not working with you and them,

01:04:35then I have a responsibility to make them the biggest group in the world.

01:04:38And that means I'm going to turn all my guns against you to make them bigger.

01:04:44I found out there was a problem with the American Music Awards dealing with the Backstreet Boys.

01:04:50So I said, okay, I'll give you NSYNC.

01:04:52Here is NSYNC.

01:04:55Yeah, we'll do it.

01:04:56I mean, why not?

01:04:56We were hungry for it.

01:05:02It's crazy how good they were.

01:05:05Their harmonies were better than Backstreet's harmonies, in my opinion.

01:05:08Sorry, boys.

01:05:09I found out the Backstreet Boys were going to put up a stadium tour.

01:05:13So I called our agent and I said, I want to put up a stadium tour two weeks before they

01:05:18do.

01:05:20And they shut their stadium tour down to an arena tour because they thought they weren't going to be able

01:05:25to sell the tickets.

01:05:28But every move that I found they were doing something first, I tried to beat them to the punch.

01:05:36Success was my revenge.

01:05:37In terms of record sales, in terms of their position on the charts, NSYNC really gave Backstreet Boys a run

01:05:43for their money.

01:05:45And of course, there were other acts that followed when they really exploded in popularity.

01:05:50And you see these rabid groups of fans who were fighting over who was the best boy band.

01:05:57It became a race in a sense, you know?

01:05:59MTV in the 80s and 90s was the go-to place for pop culture.

01:06:05We came up with TRL, Total Request Live, live in the studio with Carson.

01:06:10The show was truly programmed by the fans.

01:06:14A lot of young girls would call in within the hour screaming because they were programming it to see NSYNC

01:06:22and Backstreet Boys and Hanson.

01:06:26Where you were on TRL mattered.

01:06:29There's only 10 spots, can you stay in it?

01:06:32It became a competition.

01:06:34It was always a mix of Backstreet Boys and NSYNC being number one, number two.

01:06:38So who's side was bigger?

01:06:40Boy bands, you couldn't like both.

01:06:41That's my team and that's your team.

01:06:43We're going, it was that rivalry.

01:06:45It was the Boston Red Sox and the Yankees.

01:06:47Can't like both teams.

01:06:48Sorry.

01:06:49Like, think about it.

01:06:50That's really what it became, that's what it came down to.

01:06:52Somebody's genius.

01:06:53Somebody's a real genius here.

01:06:54I hate to say who I think it is.

01:06:57I really do.

01:06:58I don't even want to say who it is.

01:07:01It came from Lou.

01:07:03And the reason why fans started taking a side against the other is because he would manufacture stories.

01:07:10They're so cute.

01:07:11Oh my God.

01:07:12Backstreet Boys are the best.

01:07:13He would say something like, hey, I was with Backstreet Boys the other day and they said NSYNC really couldn't

01:07:18sing.

01:07:18It was more like Lou would kind of twist the night and go Backstreet's doing this.

01:07:23They look great.

01:07:24They look really, really good.

01:07:25You guys should get in more shape.

01:07:26And it was that kind of thing.

01:07:27Or this band does, you know, flips.

01:07:29Maybe you guys should do that too.

01:07:30Lou always wanted those two to be at each other or be apart from each other.

01:07:35So they would never have that opportunity to sit down and really talk about real things like contracts or money.

01:07:42And so to me, that's really what his agenda was.

01:07:47When those early days of Backstreet Boys and NSYNC, they're out there working and they're doing everything and Brinks trucks

01:07:53are coming in to stadiums taking the money away, they're thinking, all right, on the first dividend check that we're

01:07:59supposed to get, we're going to be rich.

01:08:02That's not the case.

01:08:05NSYNC.

01:08:06Sold 10 million albums, Lou Pearlman gave them 10 grand.

01:08:09They should have been millionaires.

01:08:17We were heartbroken.

01:08:18We were not paying attention to numbers or what we're selling until later on.

01:08:25Once Lou gave us each a check, I'm like, I need to know everything.

01:08:28Show me numbers.

01:08:29I want to know what comes in.

01:08:30I want to know what goes out.

01:08:31What are we making?

01:08:32What's happening?

01:08:33What do we lose?

01:08:37Lou triple dipped.

01:08:40Lou is the label.

01:08:41Then Lou is one of the managers.

01:08:44Getting paid is that.

01:08:45Lou took a percentage of the merch.

01:08:47Got paid is that.

01:08:48Lou took a percentage of the group.

01:08:50Lou got paid is that.

01:08:53And then the word I learned was recoupable.

01:08:56Good word, kids.

01:08:58Recoupable.

01:08:59Remember that.

01:09:01Recoupables are things that a record label will pay for during that initial process when they're investing in a new

01:09:08artist.

01:09:10Like transportation, dinners out, a piece of clothing that they need for a shoot.

01:09:17But then when you start to sell records, they take that money back before you ever get paid.

01:09:23So, you know, in theory, it seems, okay, this is, I guess that's fair.

01:09:28But they were like, okay, well, here's the recoup stuff.

01:09:31And slapped everybody and showed us a printout of all the stuff and all the money that we owed.

01:09:36But I'm looking at it.

01:09:38I go, shit, I didn't spend that.

01:09:41When did we do that?

01:09:42I don't remember that.

01:09:43The house that was rented.

01:09:45If we were grouped together to dinner.

01:09:47Any of the recording sessions.

01:09:48The best vocal coach.

01:09:49The best this, the best that.

01:09:51Literally tacking on 80 million other things that you kept saying that you took care of.

01:09:56Where I thought you took care of it took care of it in the sense of not recouping it back.

01:10:02The one where I was like, are you kidding me?

01:10:05We were shooting Tear Not My Heart video in Miami.

01:10:07And it was around my birthday.

01:10:09It was around me and Justin's birthday.

01:10:10And Lou was like, I'll buy you guys a gift for your birthday.

01:10:13We're like, sweet.

01:10:14We go to Armani Exchange.

01:10:15I remember I bought this jacket.

01:10:16It was probably like 200 bucks, 250.

01:10:19Buys it.

01:10:20And in the recoup thing was the jacket.

01:10:26Now you start painting a picture of this guy's really out to screw me.

01:10:32But you forget you had this guy who took three and a half million dollars in putting it into your

01:10:37music career.

01:10:38But he had that much faith in you.

01:10:40And yeah, was he, based on a deal, going to make a lion's share if this worked?

01:10:45Yeah, he should.

01:10:46Because he took the chance.

01:10:48If you fronted a group and hit bombed, who takes the loss?

01:10:52Moi.

01:10:53The Backstreet Boys and NSYNC are two of the more high profile examples of this kind of exploitation.

01:10:58But it happens with every single popular group.

01:11:0598 Degrees.

01:11:06We signed with Motown.

01:11:07We got a very, you know, nominal advance on our contract.

01:11:12We knew that all expenses were recoupable.

01:11:14And so we took the opposite approach.

01:11:15Hey, we're not paying for anything.

01:11:17We'll take a break and go around the corner to Wendy's and then go back to the studio.

01:11:19And then at the end of the session at 4 a.m., you know, we're not going to get a

01:11:22car service back to Brooklyn.

01:11:24We'll take the A train back to Brooklyn in the middle of winter.

01:11:27Four of us, four in the morning, standing in the subway station.

01:11:30And then we realized it didn't matter.

01:11:32You weren't going to see a dime from it anyway.

01:11:35Early on in Motown, we'd show up to the studio and the whole lobby of our studio session,

01:11:40we packed with other artists, execs.

01:11:43They're all smoking, hanging out, drinking, ordering food.

01:11:47And all that is going on your recoupment budget.

01:11:51The only way to ever hold a record label accountable is to audit them.

01:11:56What business works like that?

01:11:58It's like a street hustle that happens in boardrooms.

01:12:02And then on top of that, there was someone was actually skimming money off the top.

01:12:07We were at this store called Close Time.

01:12:10It was like a clothing store and made an appearance and took pictures all day.

01:12:14We were just excited because we got five grand to stand there.

01:12:18Five grand, $1,000 a piece.

01:12:21We were supposed to have been paid 50 grand for that.

01:12:24Ultimately, we fired them.

01:12:26It's the Backstreet Boys and the management.

01:12:29Okay, sure.

01:12:31You put all this money in to get us off the ground, and I will forever be grateful.

01:12:36But we're the ones out there doing the work.

01:12:39We're the ones out there leaving our families, blood, sweat, and tears.

01:12:44You should not be getting the same thing we get.

01:12:47There's no reason for that.

01:12:50From 1993 to 1997, Lou Pearlman earns $10 million from the Backstreet Boys.

01:12:56The members of the band together got $300,000.

01:13:04Now what happened was all the groups, we had a little party.

01:13:08So I look over, and I see Justin talking to Nick and Brian.

01:13:12And then all the other guys are talking to each other and other members.

01:13:16The one thing Lou didn't want to do is for these guys to sit down and really talk about things

01:13:22about Lou that he might have lied about.

01:13:25And then about a week later is when a German attorney sends a notice on behalf of Brian that they're

01:13:33suing me and Lou.

01:13:36Brian Littrell is the first one to launch a lawsuit against Lou Pearlman.

01:13:40And shortly thereafter, the other members from Backstreet Boys follow suit.

01:13:46All five of the BSB lads are suing their former manager.

01:13:49Backstreet had their lawsuit against Lou Pearlman and Johnny Wright, which started in 1998.

01:13:53And then NSYNC filed a lawsuit against Lou and only Lou in 1999.

01:14:00We need to fight for what we have done throughout these two and a half, three years that we've been

01:14:03busting our asses.

01:14:04I was like, listen, we need to do this.

01:14:06So it was a very scary and tough decision.

01:14:10And then what happened, he wanted to draw a line in the sand and say,

01:14:14do you have a contract with me? I spent this money. If it wasn't for me, there wouldn't be no

01:14:18them.

01:14:20So they went to battle.

01:14:22And then Lou tried to sue NSYNC for their name.

01:14:25It's him desperate to try to hang on to something that he had no right to.

01:14:31We were definitely nervous.

01:14:33You had these guys, you know, you had Lou and he has all these lawyers and like,

01:14:37we don't have that money. We don't have anybody to back us up like that in that sense.

01:14:41We're opening up a can that could mess up our name.

01:14:43We might not even have a name in sync.

01:14:45If he won, their careers were back to square one. Like it was over.

01:14:52I was scared, but we were confident on top of that as well.

01:14:56Scared in the sense of we didn't know what was going to happen with NSYNC,

01:14:59but confident enough that we knew that we were not in the wrong.

01:15:04We went and sat in front of a judge. Even the way the judge said it was, is look, if

01:15:09I look at a poster, I see five guys on it. You're not on that poster.

01:15:14So how are you a sixth member?

01:15:17But it was all legit.

01:15:19And the lawyers said, hey, this is what we need to do and settle out of court.

01:15:23NSYNC won the rights to their name, but still had a signed contract with Lou Pearlman.

01:15:27So both the Backstreet Boys and NSYNC paid a collective amount of $64 million to settle out of their contract.

01:15:38When we split from Lou, I think it hurt different levels for each of us.

01:15:43It was disappointment, 100% disappointment.

01:15:47He was big papa.

01:15:50He was the one to look for guidance in certain things.

01:15:54And you kind of screwed us over.

01:15:57Backstreet Boys then turned around after they got big and sued you and said you took too much of their

01:16:03money.

01:16:04I don't think they said it as much as the lawyers that got in the middle of it kind of

01:16:10blew it out of proportion in a sense.

01:16:12That was Lou's mentality. Lou was going to crank out boy band after boy band after boy band. And he

01:16:17did.

01:16:27What's up? I'm Brad. I'm Rich. I'm Devin. And we're on that phone.

01:16:30I was a member of Take 5. When I was 12, met Lou at his house.

01:16:35Did you audition that day? Did you sing for him that day?

01:16:38Um, no.

01:16:40About halfway through, I guess I started to realize that, oh, I guess this has already been decided.

01:16:45Clearly there was no shortage of boy groups in Orlando to be found.

01:16:52Now there's a Latin band, C-Note.

01:16:55He did C-Note.

01:16:56And he did girl groups too.

01:17:00And they all came from Orlando. Cranking them out.

01:17:04Lou Pearlman bands, cookie cutter. Can't tell them apart.

01:17:08Maybe the concept, the style, or where we're going might be clean cut. And that could be the commonality.

01:17:14Every time you make a cake, it always tastes good in the end.

01:17:19If you make it right.

01:17:34My name is Steven Mooney, and I was auditioning to be in a boy band and worked with Lou Pearlman

01:17:39in Transcon Records.

01:17:41I was in the Army. I had to be 19-ish, 20. And when I got out, I was working

01:17:48at Abercrombie & Fitch.

01:17:51Nine West Shoes and TGI Fridays as a busser.

01:17:55And I got approached by this kid in the mall. And he's like, hey, I'm putting together a boy band.

01:18:00And he's like, can you sing?

01:18:02I was like, I've never really tried, but I've never been told that I can't sing, right?

01:18:07That's when he was like, come to my house, and we'll sing, and we'll see what you got, and then

01:18:11go from there.

01:18:13Eventually, I ended up at the house of one of Lou's confidants.

01:18:16He's one of the guys in the group with Lou.

01:18:19I mean, there were hundreds of kids at this house.

01:18:22And he has everybody sing. And then he kicked everybody out of the house, except for me.

01:18:27And then he put his hand on my shoulder as he was walking me out.

01:18:29And he's like, hey, I want you to meet the big guy.

01:18:33I'm like, I had no idea what this guy is talking about.

01:18:36I had no idea who Backstreet Boys were. I had no idea who NSYNC was.

01:18:40No idea who Britney Spears was. I was fresh out of the Army.

01:18:42But literally, the next day, I was at the office at 9 o'clock in the morning meeting Lou Roman.

01:18:48When you walk into the glass doors, I see pictures of, like, Britney Spears, Aaron Carter,

01:18:54Backstreet Boys, NSYNC. And there's these two big honking doors at the end of this hallway.

01:19:00And then he opens them up.

01:19:03And there's Lou sitting there. And he had me sing something acapella himself.

01:19:09And that's when he's like, you're mine.

01:19:11What did you promise?

01:19:13That was going to be, to my parents' face, I was going to be a millionaire in the next year.

01:19:18Had you at this point heard anything about why Backstreet or NSYNC was suing him?

01:19:23No, he never mentioned why. And all that stuff was settled out of court, right?

01:19:27So nobody knew why.

01:19:30We haven't been introduced to Backstreet or NSYNC yet.

01:19:32So we're just hearing his side of it.

01:19:35Like, that they're just ungrateful or being greedy.

01:19:37There's so many different other, like, versions of that story that can make total sense.

01:19:42What was your little 12-year-old perspective on what Lou wanted from this?

01:19:50I don't know. Um, I guess I never thought about what Lou wanted from it.

01:19:56You're working three jobs and you're trying to make something yourself and you've got no direction.

01:20:00And somebody comes in like a guardian angel and is just like, you're an amazing person.

01:20:06You got incredible talent. You got a great look.

01:20:09And I'm going to make you a millionaire based on these things.

01:20:12There's no better feeling in the world, right?

01:20:15And he's like, I have some ideas. I'm putting together a band.

01:20:18If that's going to work out, we'll find something for you.

01:20:22But that was sort of the open-ended.

01:20:24He's like, you're going to come work for me for, you know, however long it takes.

01:20:29He made me his driver.

01:20:32He's like, JC drove for me.

01:20:34Rich drove for me at some point.

01:20:36He's like, even Brad drove for me.

01:20:39What were your first impressions of Lou Brown?

01:20:43I don't know.

01:20:45You know?

01:20:46When I was still working for Lou, driving his limo, I wanted to be a rapper.

01:20:51I was 19.

01:20:53Rich and this guy, Brian, they had set up a meeting with Lou.

01:20:57So he's like, hey, you know, you guys are doing the same kind of music.

01:21:00Why don't you just come together as one group and, you know, I'll sign you.

01:21:04And we're like, okay, you know?

01:21:06Then he disappears and comes back.

01:21:08I'm pretty sure he had, like, just some gym shorts on and a guitar.

01:21:13You know, a shirt and a guitar, right?

01:21:16And he's sitting there in front of us on the couch and he's like, he starts playing the guitar.

01:21:21So it was just kind of a weird, a weird time.

01:21:27He was kind enough to let me stay in his house as I was, like, coming up through these things.

01:21:34But when I lived at that house, and that's when it all came crashing down.

01:21:42There's a lot of stuff that happened behind closed doors.

01:21:45It didn't feel good.

01:21:47Something here is not right.

01:21:50And I was not the only one.

01:21:56I've always just said really nice things about Lou and I'm really grateful.

01:22:00But it does feel like there was one member of each group that Lou was grooming.

01:22:06Including me.

01:22:13You're on this roller coaster of never stopping.

01:22:17Or you think it's never gonna stop.

01:22:19First time I tried drugs.

01:22:21Wow, this is awesome.

01:22:22I was so deathly afraid of being called washed up.

01:22:25I was victimized.

01:22:27Things get a lot darker.

01:22:28And a lot more bleak.

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