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ITL debates the timeline for evaluating coaches and what red flags show up early.
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00:00How long does it take to know that a coach doesn't have it?
00:047-1-3-5-7-2-4-6-10.
00:06Because this was something that I've been pondering
00:07over a few different circumstances.
00:10One was just, you know, obviously,
00:13actually kind of came to the Kevin O'Connell thing in some ways.
00:15I think I was listening to the athletic football show,
00:17and they were talking about how really with some coaches,
00:20if something doesn't really change for them,
00:22whether it's like a big quarterback change or something like that,
00:26five, six years, it's kind of like, all right, man,
00:28we kind of need to move this thing along as a head coach perspective.
00:32I paired that with a conversation or, you know,
00:35an article that I was reading about Trevor Lawrence
00:38and his kind of circumstances in Jacksonville where this past year,
00:44you saw him be a lot better, but behind the scenes,
00:46they were like, he really kind of figured it out with 13 through 18.
00:50And in that intervening time,
00:52it really just helped that they were playing well.
00:54And I was like, huh,
00:55I wonder how people would feel about this offense
00:57if they had not been playing well to that point.
00:59And, you know, kind of the conversations of a new guy.
01:01And so do we feel like you have an idea on how long it takes
01:04to determine whether or not a coach has it?
01:06And I'm speaking specifically,
01:08just to put my cards on the table here,
01:10in the context of Nick Cayley,
01:12so much of what we're seeing for the Texans is,
01:14all right, their improvement needs to happen on offense.
01:16They've invested.
01:17David Montgomery was traded for.
01:19You go and you acquire Brayden Smith.
01:22You acquire Wyatt Teller, right?
01:23You have those.
01:24You add Evan Brown as a depth guy, right?
01:26You bring back Trent Brown.
01:28All these things are to an end of being better on offense.
01:31And now the stuff is better,
01:33but how much do you know of the sum of the parts being better?
01:37And that is under the charge of Nick Cayley.
01:39And I don't know how I feel about him
01:41and his ability to elevate.
01:44And as I was thinking about that,
01:45I go, should we know by now?
01:47Or is that too early?
01:48So how do you know?
01:49Or how long does it take to know
01:51if a coach doesn't have it in your mind?
01:52It's funny because when you brought this up,
01:54and you actually brought it up yesterday,
01:56I started thinking about it.
01:57Don't give away the goal.
01:58Okay, don't do that.
02:00But I did think about Nick Cayley.
02:02And the answer to your question right there for me is,
02:04no, you don't know.
02:05I think we all kind of maybe have a hunch
02:07and we're sort of biased in a sense,
02:10because I don't know,
02:12and I've said it on here,
02:13I don't know how much he knows about the passing game
02:15just in general.
02:16And can you learn that on the job
02:18in such a, not just high profile,
02:21but high stakes, you know, position for this team?
02:24Like, you know, we know what the defense is.
02:25We know the story, right?
02:26All you need to do is get the offense going a little bit
02:30and you're good.
02:31So I did think about Nick Cayley,
02:32and I think it's still a little too early.
02:34We'll see how Szaplinski, you know,
02:36plays in as the quarterback's coach, et cetera.
02:38But where I also went,
02:40and I think this is important,
02:42is the head coaches.
02:44Yeah.
02:45You know, with especially the Rockets and the Astros.
02:48I think we can all agree.
02:49Fair.
02:49I think we can all agree that D'Amico Ryan has got it.
02:53You know, he's proved it.
02:54I don't know what it is, kid.
02:56Yeah.
02:56But you've got it.
02:57Exactly.
02:58And I don't know if you can maybe parse out little things.
03:01Is he really focusing on the offense?
03:02That's for a later discussion.
03:03But just in general,
03:04he is a guy that you can win with.
03:06I don't think you have the answer with Emei Odoka or, you know,
03:11or with the Astros.
03:13I really, with Joe Espada, I really don't.
03:15Because here's the thing with Joe Espada.
03:17They were, oh, they had a lot of injuries.
03:19Well, what's happening this year?
03:21You know, you got a lot of injuries.
03:22Early.
03:23You know, and he hasn't won a playoff series.
03:25But there have been excuses.
03:27And so, are you giving him a pass for that?
03:29Or is he just not have it yet?
03:30When do you find out?
03:32That's going to be a tough one.
03:33Emei Odoka, I think we have an answer.
03:37And boy, you're going to hate this comparison.
03:41I'm going to hate it personally?
03:42You and Fig are both going to hate this.
03:43Oh, gosh.
03:45I'm catching a Bill O'Brien vibe.
03:47I knew you was going to say that.
03:48I'm catching a Bill O'Brien.
03:50I knew you was going to say that, man.
03:51You did?
03:52How dare you?
03:53He's a good coach.
03:54As you know, I'm passionate about performance.
03:57I know we were talking about it.
03:59Three years in, I was already thinking to myself and talking about it here on this station.
04:05He's a good coach.
04:06There's no question.
04:07Bill O'Brien, good coach.
04:09Yeah.
04:09But does he have what it takes to make this team a championship?
04:13We found out the answer.
04:14It wasn't horse shit on offense.
04:16Emei Odoka, good coach.
04:19Good coach.
04:20But does he have it?
04:22I'm starting to think there's a little Bill O'Brien vibe there.
04:25Especially when you start talking about the ornery nature of him, like how hard-headed
04:30he can be.
04:31Yeah, yeah.
04:31It's my way or the highway type thing and an inability to kind of shape what you do around
04:37the hurdles here.
04:39I think, honestly, some of this question.
04:40Headstrong.
04:41Yes.
04:42Like Bill O'Brien.
04:43Right.
04:44Gosh, I hate how good of a comparison.
04:47I really do.
04:48I don't want to like this.
04:49And what's funny is, I'm not like the biggest Emei Odoka guy.
04:54We've gotten to that, right?
04:55When we were having the conversation.
04:56I don't think it's about loving or hating.
04:57Right.
04:58I think it's like, we're trying to figure it out here.
05:00You know, to your point.
05:01To your question.
05:02Four AFC South titles, Brian.
05:05Thank you, A32.
05:06Doesn't matter, Brian.
05:08What?
05:08AFC South champions two years in a row, Brian.
05:10Two years in a row, damn it.
05:12Um, yeah, but with the question, I think what's interesting is you took it to how long does
05:17it take to know that he has it?
05:19I kind of intentionally put it the other way.
05:21How long does it take to know that they don't have it?
05:23Because I think that that's some of the answer, right?
05:25The, you could stay a long time in ambiguity because yeah, that's the place where I think
05:30a lot of people are right.
05:32The, cause there's, when it comes to sports, there's a lot of variables.
05:35Um, like I see someone on the text line talking about Joe Espada gets a pass because the
05:39owner keeps taking away his best players and will continue to do so year to year.
05:42So you don't know there's, yeah, there's all sorts of variables with all sorts of different
05:46coaches.
05:46Right.
05:47Um, but at, at what point do you strip out, strip away all the variables or are you able
05:52to see around the variables to be able to speak to the guy?
05:55Yeah.
05:55And some of this is setting our, setting the groundwork for the Nick Haley of this all.
06:00Cause I already saw someone on the text line earlier that goes, Hey, if Nick Haley doesn't
06:04work this year, go get Kevin O'Connell, which I don't know that he's available, but I get
06:08the idea, right?
06:09But do you feel like this is going to be a year where you have that because they have
06:12added on the offensive line, they've added the running back.
06:15Um, does that feel like that's enough for you to be like, okay, now in halfway through
06:22the season, three quarters of the season, through the entirety of the season, we should
06:25know whether or not he does or does not have it.
06:28I think you're right.
06:28Uh, I think we'll know half, three quarters of the way through the season, you know, because
06:34this offense, I mean, there's no wiggle room anymore.
06:36There's no grace period, uh, with this offense.
06:40It has to, and by the way, you know, the head coach that we all, you know, appreciate
06:44and things can get you there made the changes.
06:46Well, they made the changes, uh, ultimately, you know, offensively to try to change.
06:52What do you say?
06:53Uh, change the messaging, change the voice or whatever.
06:56Um, so yeah, you're going to be, I think three quarters of the way into the year.
06:59If this offense is still, you know, you're wringing your hands over it with the offensive
07:03lineman, with the running back, with, you know, uh, a new quarterbacks coach, I think
07:07we'll know.
07:08Yeah.
07:08The thing is they could easily just kind of blame this on CJ shroud too.
07:13Sure.
07:13They can look at that and say, Hey, he's not really doing what we want him to do type of
07:17deal.
07:18And that could be an easy way out or kind of get them a pass a little bit.
07:22I think you're right too on that.
07:23Yeah.
07:24And how, since we're talking about the variables, right?
07:27How, how, how fair is it?
07:29Cause I think some of this, some of this ends up being the answer is how long do you
07:34want to give them?
07:35Because there's some instances where a coach is favorable, whether he, it's your guy or
07:40whether, you know, like someone like a Hubert Davis, right?
07:43At UNC, that was their guy.
07:45They want it to work.
07:46And so they're willing to let it ride for a little bit.
07:48Now he was out of there in five years, but in those five years, they had, that's a good
07:51run.
07:52Three out of the five years.
07:53He didn't, they didn't either didn't win in the first round or didn't make the tournament.
07:56Right.
07:57They gave him a pretty long run in some ways.
07:59Right.
08:00In the same way, or maybe in a different way.
08:02Right.
08:03D'Amico Ryan's here.
08:04Like there's, I think that he's got now there's been some successes here.
08:08There's been a lot of successes here, but if it wasn't to this degree, I think he would
08:11have even still some runway because of what he means culturally.
08:16So I do think that some of this also is how you feel about him.
08:19But if you start talking about some of the variables, how much, how much deference do
08:23you give on some of the variables?
08:24Because some of the idea of any job is that there will be variables and you have to find
08:29a way to navigate those.
08:30And specifically with someone like Kaylee, the whole mantra was you navigate the variables
08:35because you tailor what you do to what you have.
08:37Well, the interesting thing kind of to what Figgy said about that they could, you know,
08:42all of a sudden point to CJ Stroud.
08:44We will absolutely do that.
08:45Especially if CJ Stroud's performance is not right, but it ties in with the variable.
08:50The biggest variable to me is these are Nick Casario's guys.
08:53This is his style, his guys, you know, his system, his Patriots, his John Carroll, all
09:00that stuff.
09:01So they're going to just, I think, inherently have more grace, you know, to get it right
09:07than maybe even the quarterback.
09:10Yeah.
09:10You know?
09:11No, I agree.
09:12And they can use the excuse of, hey, we made a change.
09:15Yeah.
09:15Hey, we started with Bobby Sloak and now we got the right type of system that works.
09:21Yeah.
09:22And we got that in here and the quarterback still not getting it.
09:27So, yeah, I think they do have a little more grace, period.
09:30All right.
09:30So I want to throw a couple of responses that come in on the text line as possible ideas
09:34for when timeline-wise you get an idea.
09:37Someone threw up here the idea of the tight end group, right?
09:40Maybe we take this from the perspective of what is your perceived specialty and how is
09:46that coming along, right?
09:46What are you supposed to be doing well at?
09:50Whether that's what you say or what we know of from you and then how does that look after
09:54a period of time?
09:56And this person says from the 979, if the tight end group isn't better, then Kaylee doesn't
09:59have it.
10:00I get that as a thought process.
10:02I don't agree.
10:02It feels like odd here because he's not a position coach.
10:05He's an offense coordinator as a whole.
10:06And even though that is his specialty and I know he cares a lot about that, one, the circumstances
10:11of the injuries make that a little tough.
10:12But two, he's not necessarily, well, I don't know exactly how hands-on, but I have to assume
10:16that it's not hands-on that is what he is working on right now, right?
10:20No, I disagree with that because I think ultimately it's going to be quarterback and passing game.
10:24Yeah.
10:24And then on top of that, I mean, I know he coached the tight ends at some point, but I
10:28never really, maybe I'm wrong on this, but I didn't look at him as the tight end guru
10:33or something.
10:33Right.
10:33I think he just, you know, he was a coach for the tight ends.
10:37Now, that's a fair point, right?
10:39In a different way where you go to some of the coaches that are supposed to be like quarterback
10:45whisperers, right?
10:45Yeah.
10:46And you go, okay, the quarterbacks aren't getting better under you and us, right?
10:49Yeah.
10:50I think that that, I don't know that he was purported necessarily, well, I guess we talked
10:53about it a decent amount, him being tight end whisperer.
10:56And then also, if you want to say that, did you not have a Dalton Schultz who had a at
11:01least
11:01career catch year, if that's the metric that you want to use here?
11:04So could you not use that there?
11:05All right.
11:06How about this as another possibility of possibly seeing how this works?
11:11Nick Casario has been very adamant about working in two-year windows.
11:14Is that an aspect of this possibly where it's just you decide after two years because two-year
11:20increments seems to be the way that they work?
11:21Bobby Slowick, hired after two years.
11:23Now, I think it feels like that is less about two years and more about the certain particular
11:29predicaments, but is it possible that this is just, you get two years, you have your first
11:32year to find your legs, second year, let's see what you got.
11:34Yeah.
11:35It's possible, but I don't think in this case, I think the first two years was just not quite
11:40what they, you know, this was more influenced by D'Amico Ryans and Bobby Slowick having coached
11:45together and Casario didn't quite have the, you know, the control offensively that he does
11:50now.
11:51And now I think they're going to have a much longer leash just because they're hell bound to make
11:56it work with this defense and now that he's got all his guys in there, I don't quite fall
12:00in with that.
12:01Now, I do think if, if CJ Stroud, if you have to pick between CJ Stroud and Nick Cayley, that
12:09all of a sudden is not necessarily as easy a decision as, as you would have, you would
12:13think you'd think it'd be automatically, well, we got to find somebody to work with our quarterback
12:17again.
12:17We got to try again.
12:18I don't know about that.
12:20I don't know about that.
12:21Honestly, I think any other organization probably would have just fired another OC.
12:25Just bring somebody else in.
12:27Just keep going.
12:28But this one, I just don't.
12:29I agree.
12:30It seemed like as far as the offense, they are stuck on this, in this way, good or bad,
12:35however you want to feel about it.
12:36That's what they're going to do.
12:36This is our way and you get with it or, you know, yeah, get down, you're going to lay
12:41down type deal.
12:43Yeah.
12:44This feels wild to say.
12:45Is it possible that they are more attached to the offense than they are the quarterback
12:47right now?
12:49It's possible.
12:50Yeah, I think so.
12:51I think that's part of the reason why they cool at keeping Davis Mills around, too.
12:56No, I think you're absolutely right.
12:59But that doesn't really answer your question about when do you find out, because I guess
13:03we could find out and they'll still be like, no, we need more time.
13:06Right.
13:07But keep in mind, Bill O'Brien was, what, here, seven years?
13:09Yeah.
13:10Yeah.
13:10My point with the offense thing is, if that is the case, and of course, big if, but if
13:14it is the case that they are more mentally, at least in this moment, attached to the offense
13:19than the quarterback, I think it ends up being a, how does he look when it comes to the development
13:26of this offense?
13:26Or maybe the answer, if it is indeed the other way, which I think most NFL teams would
13:31be attached to the quarterback than the offense, how are you getting the best out of the quarterback
13:36ends up being the question.
13:38And it probably, if you're talking about how long does it take, a year and a half, a year
13:43and more than that, I think that probably is about the time where you're starting to get
13:48your inklings on how this indeed works.
13:51You would think in a real world.
13:53Yeah.
13:53Yeah.
13:54All it takes is Davis Mills starting three games and going three and no and doing the
13:58right thing.
13:59That's right.
13:59It's like, okay.
14:00Yeah.
14:01He got this down, Pat.
14:02Yeah.
14:03I want to dig in deeper to this at another time, maybe off air, but just to see what
14:07feel like they're the landmarks.
14:09Don't do it off air, man.
14:10Give it to the people, man.
14:11All right.
14:11Fine.
14:12Maybe we do that.
14:13Maybe later in the summer, maybe even during the season at some point we revisit the idea
14:16because I'm super intrigued because obviously as a general sentiment, this is something
14:20that matters, but particularly, I think we're still trying to figure out, I think you feel
14:24great about your defensive coaches.
14:26I'm still interested in how we feel about the coaching on the offense side.
14:29Right.
14:29And there's going to be a lot that I think can be learned about it this year.
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