00:14Hello and welcome to the Global Conversation. I am Jerry Fisaya Bambi. Across the world,
00:21the geopolitical landscape is shifting, marked by rising trade tensions, conflicts and economic
00:27pressure. There are growing expectations among the populations and many are demanding for
00:32accountability in leadership. In Malawi, the Southern African nation of some 21 million people,
00:38that shift played out in real time. A presidency that began with reformist momentum and public
00:43optimism ultimately faced the complex realities of governance, delivery and trust. My guest is
00:50President Lazarus Chaquera, now navigating life beyond office. President Chaquera, thank you for
00:55joining us on the Global Conversation. I'm mighty glad. Thank you so much for inviting me. First off,
01:02since leaving office, what has surprised you most about power, especially now that you no longer hold
01:09it? Well, you know, issues to do with power sometimes get to you in such a way that you want
01:17to retain it,
01:19as it were. But the reality is that power needs to be released in order for greater good to happen.
01:31And that's basically what I experienced. And when you look back at your presidency,
01:38when you came into office in 2020, you ran on an anti-corruption and reformist mandate. But then why do
01:44you
01:45think that many Malawians feel that some of those promises fell short, going by the very decisive nature
01:50of the electoral results? Well, you have to remember that when in 2020, I became president,
01:59it was right in the middle of various challenges and started with COVID and many natural disasters that
02:12we had to declare year after year. And these had obvious impact on the people and how the people reacted
02:21to such shocks.
02:23But you also need to understand that our fight is a long-term fight. It's not something that just happens
02:34and then it's done. I made sure that we had legislation that made it possible for the corruption fight,
02:45for example. However, when you are faced with issues to do with economic recovery based on what had been
02:56a legacy of so much debt, you almost face a vicious cycle of trying to get up. And then you
03:06get knocked down again,
03:08and you get up and get knocked down again. Because the five years that I was president,
03:13each of the four years, I had to declare a state of national disaster of one form or another.
03:19And so we made sure that we would begin to emphasize, for example, on agricultural productivity
03:26and commercialization so that we move away from subsistence farming, which a majority of Malawians
03:34practice, to where we produce, produce, and produce so that there would be food security. And we made sure
03:40that we would do infrastructure for irrigation farming. So we take advantage of the much water that we have
03:48to leverage such. Now, those things take time in order for real transformation to begin to manifest.
03:57And because sometimes politics is a transactional issue, it becomes much difficult for people to
04:06appreciate what can happen tomorrow when what they want is what happens today. Indeed, from what you've
04:14mentioned, your time in office was characterized with a lot of challenges. Cyclone E. Dice, Cyclone
04:20Freddie, and then the drought in 2024. But President Chaquera, you also, you know, faced a lot of
04:29allegations of corruption. And what would you say, if you had one thing that you got fundamentally wrong
04:36in office? What would you what would you say that was what that is? Perhaps thinking back, you get wiser,
04:43is that the fight you engage in fights back. And in fighting back, you tend to have the label of
04:55the one that is
04:56most corrupt, when in fact, you are the one that puts on the light, and then everything is exposed.
05:03And so in that process, you become the focus of what is happening. And yet it is part of the
05:14healing
05:14process of a nation, because things are not hidden no more, they are exposed.
05:19Well, I'd like to just lean in on that just one more time. Could it be that because there was
05:28this,
05:29the anti-corruption bureau and the director for over a year was not appointed? I mean, what caused that delay?
05:36You must recall that even in my campaign, when I talked about the rule of law, I meant to live
05:43by it.
05:44And living by it also means you pay the price for trying to follow through with what is.
05:51So in the last few, you know, by a year or so, after the end of one contract,
06:04and then we put out adverts to where we wanted to have a new director take over.
06:14Some people went to court. Some people said, no, we don't like these. And so with that kind of
06:21injection, you don't want to say, no, I don't care about that. We will go ahead and appoint.
06:28That is what formed part of the delay, because I was trying to be systematic about following through
06:34with what the courts would say. And by the time that injunction was lifted,
06:39it was precious little time left for the appointment. So somebody acted in that position.
06:47And I have learned that once you want to stick truly to the rule of law issue, it punishes you
06:55as well.
06:56Punishes you, you say. You say there. But let us move slightly away from Malawi,
07:03but in a broader context now. In African democracies, history shows that reformist leaders
07:08often struggle. What is the reason for this? Do leaders change once they are in power?
07:15I'll give you my example. When you begin to make sure that things follow through with what you said,
07:24you begin to see that there are those who don't like the change. And then you say, well, what are
07:33the
07:33bottlenecks? We found out that it was to do with some laws. So, okay, let's then go to parliament and
07:41amend some of these laws. And once they are done, no matter how good a country's laws are or a
07:46constitution
07:47is, it still depends on who implements the same. And then you'll find that you have those that are
07:55willing to follow through, but there are also those who don't like to follow through on such things,
08:01because change is not just instantaneous. At times, change is a process. And during that process,
08:10you discover that it is not as easy as it is said. And so, you know, this is part of
08:19any organizational
08:20reform that takes place. Between transaction and transformation, you have to bridge that gap so
08:27that the real and the ideal begin to get closer to each other. Some would ask and say, I mean,
08:36if I'm
08:36hungry, if I've got no food on the table, and you're talking to me about some of this, you know,
08:41realism and
08:42idealism, what people want is to have a basic means of survival.
08:47Absolutely. And this is exactly why certain things would be abandoned in order to provide
08:53the food. For example, in times when there's been flooding and crops have been washed away,
09:00or there's been a drought and crops have dried up. And so instead of then doing what you had said,
09:07this is what needs to happen. You say, well, let's provide the food. However, you could still
09:14have food in your house. If you don't know how to cook it or don't know how to prepare it,
09:19you might feel like you are starving when there is food available. So there's also a technical aspect
09:24to all of this. And when the technical people would not follow through with what needs to happen,
09:31things drag. President Chacuera, you've staged an election in which you lost and oversaw
09:37a peaceful transfer of power. Shortly thereafter, you were appointed a special envoy,
09:43a commonwealth special envoy to Tanzania, following the country's post-election tensions. Going by your
09:49experience, are African elections generally becoming more democratic or just more sophisticated
09:56in managing outcomes. I'm proud to say that we did have peaceful elections under my watch and
10:06that we did have peaceful transfer of power. And I'm happy that others noticed that our democratization process
10:17in Malawi was maturing in a way. And so this is a demonstration of how, in Africa, we can
10:28have democratic elections and we can accept results of the same after the process has been done right.
10:38And I think we could state that Malawi becomes an example of how such things can happen, even though
10:49people naturally would feel like things were not perfect. Nowhere are things perfect, but you can still
10:58play a role in which peace becomes paramount and that personal egos can submit to the common good of
11:09the community. As leader of the Malawi Congress Party, now in the opposition, do you consider your
11:16political journey finished or are you preparing for a return? Well, somebody said jokingly, two weeks in
11:23politics is a long time, but you can never tell. However, I can assure you of this. As president, I
11:34pledge to
11:35serve the people. As former president, I will serve the people continuously, knowing that whatever connections
11:43I have with you, Jerry and others, for example, we can still use that leverage to leverage Malawi's
11:51development and then assist those who are in power at the present stage. We will continue to do that.
11:58Now, I am president of Malawi Congress Party and naturally people got disappointed that I was not
12:07able to retain the presidency of the nation. And so issues to do with rebuilding and rebuilding
12:16party structures and rebuilding trust amongst the Malawians is something that I'll continue to do so
12:23that whoever leads the party leads an organization that is robust and one that is ready to run.
12:32In other words, we should still look out for President Chakrera in nation building for Malawi and
12:39generally. Yeah, because I will continue to help in nation building, not necessarily as president
12:45of the nation, but as servant of the people. President Chakrera, it's been a pleasure to have
12:50you with us. Thank you very much for joining us and for speaking with us. Wow, wonderful. Thank you
12:55for the opportunity. Thank you. Thank you.
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